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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Delilah the dog
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus. Maxim(talk) 13:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Christopher Erskine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
I am not the most serious of Wiki users, nor do I have a vast understanding of the rules. However, this is a clear glory page for a lonely 50 year old man, whether he wrote it himself or not. There are, in Australia alone, I suspect 100 different debating tournaments including IV's, internal comps and schools comps. Each of them has a different "founder" and each of them, each year, has a different "convenor" which is the same thing as a founder, and involves the same amount of work, just the "founder" did it first. Likewise, there are many debating Presidents, every year there is a different one for the dozens of Australian based organisations. Nor is world schools a particularly prestigious one, on the contrary it is panned as a ridiculous and standardless competition by serious debaters, and is smaller, less representative and of less import than many other debating tournaments. It is comical that this guy should have his own page. If we allowed everyone with like crednetials worldwide their own pages you'd have more debating figures than US political representatives. This appears a clear deletion. The fact that he, among thousands of others each year, mooted for his uni once is likewise unnoteworthy. I support a page for the organisation, or tournament, and he gets a mention on all those pages, but he has not done anything worthy of his own page. He is not even famous within the debating community, merely a small subset of the debating community (the middle aged people who run the national schools comp. 9/10ths of ACT debaters and adjudicators have no idea who he is, and couldn't care either) *Speedy Delete- Jembot
- I believe wether it for the persons glory or not it is information about him which is what wikipedia is for, maybe there are people who are looking for peoples way of having or getting glory. To clarify, I don't care if it's a speedy delete, I just pasted that from what someone else below did, but I can't for the life of me, actually being a debater, work out why he is more noteworthy than a thousand other guys, or how he qualifies for fame. delete if that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.0.135 (talk • contribs)
- Keep. This individual is the founder of a world championship (the World Schools Debating Championships) which over 60 countries have been involved in. In addition to that, he's a past president of the only national school-level debating organisation in Australia (the Australian Debating Federation), and of a major regional debating association (the Australian Capital Territory Debating Union). With respect, I therefore believe that he's considerably more notable than someone who founded any old debating competition, or someone who's been president of a small local debating society or event as Jembot is comparing him to. As a world championship founder and major national organisation past president, I think he meets WP:BIO. Purple Watermelon 07:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've already voted and said my bit, but the titles given are pretty misleading. I could annoint myself world pokemon online card champion, based on how well I played an online game, but it would be a pretty absurd title. ADF is not a real body. It does not "run Australia wide debating", on the contrary it has no involvement in running those bodies beyond a small grant (given by the Govt), which the simply disburse to the affiliates. The Affiliates from different states who pay a token fee ($200 a year) run Australian debating. ADF is a body of almost zero significance to them. It meets once per year, for perhaps 3 hours, and has a council of perhaps half a dozen members (often excluding some states and territories), and is involved in 2 matters. Making rules for National Schools (a tournament other people from the state affiliates actually convene and organise), and providing a forum for affiliates to select the Aust team. As for world schools, it is not much of an IV compared to dozens and dozens of other IV's worldwide. Given a founder is no different to another convenor, it is easy to see how other people could claim the same level of qualification. There are about a dozen uni level IV's per year for Australian debating- Easters, Australs, Worlds, Womens, Melbourne Mini, sydney Mini, Sydney Pro-am, ADAM, Worlds Mini, ANU mini, etc. At least half these are better attended than World Schools, and taken more seriously. Then there are dozens of schools competitions Australia wide, many of which are significantly better attended. Each debating society has it's own internal comps, some of which would clearly be more participatory (like Sydney, Monash, etc), and every year these bodies and groups have their own presidents, convenors, etc. Consider then the World wide scope of these sorts of competitions, Asian debating, the US, all the different UK debating societies. There are probably hundreds of tournaments and bodies of more significance than World Schools, from the Mace to All-Asians, and hundreds and hundreds of debaters who have played as important a role. What distinguishes Chris from these people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jembot99 (talk • contribs) 07:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The World Schools Debating Championships is not an IV (IVs - or inter-varsity competitions to use their full name - are university-level tournaments). WSDC is a competition which has, over the years, involved NATIONAL TEAMS of school-level debaters from over 60 countries. That gives the competition a level of significance that goes beyond local, national or regional tournaments where the teams represent individual institutions rather than their country. And even if the Australian Debating Federation's Executive comes together to meet only once a year, its role in setting the rules for national schools debating events and selecting the Australian national schools teams is still a very signifant one. Purple Watermelon 07:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- World Schools until recently was a very small affair, it by no means traditionally has 60 teams present. Why would an IV be less important? It features debaters from "all over the world" selected by their universities. If this tournament is so significant, no doubt every convenor should have their own page, along with every winning team. In 2005 it has 31 teams, in 2004 it had 29, in 2003 it had 25. Heck, in 2007 it only had 31 teams, I doubt it has ever had 60 participants, so this is all very deceptive. Most of these teams are extremely poor, and the competition actually occurs between a handful of teams, which is clearly shown in the results. Australia has won, what, 7/8 times in the last 8 years? I likewise don't understand why an IV, attended by people all over the world, with more people in attendance, all representing prestigious instititutions, would be less significant, purely because this falls under the brand of a National team. Would we add the NATIONAL pogo stick winner too? Australs, Asians and easters regularly have over 300 participants, Worlds for Uni regularly has 1000,there are dozens or like examples. Even the yr 7-8 Ford schools comp is would have about 200 kids in it, and is frankly a more credible competition. World schools has, what, 100 people attending each year? Would the founders of all those IV's, and all those convenors have pages? You don't explain why Chris has done something particularly special, or meriting the clearly irrelevant additional information he has put as a glory offering all over his page. He plays an organ? He once mooted? Who cares? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jembot99 (talk • contribs) 07:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The number of teams who enter the World Schools Debating Championship is not the point (though given that WSDC has a one-team-per-country restriction, I do think the number is quite significant - IVs can involve dozens of teams from the same country). The fact is that Erskine founded (not just once-off convened) a world championship and has stayed involved in that event since. Two decades on, the event is still running, regularly has over 30 national teams involved, has had more than 60 countries send their national teams over the years, and has had around 15 different countries reach the semi-finals or further. All this indicates that it's not just a sham "world championship", but a genuine one which is viewed as significant around the world. Being the founder of this world championship event, coupled with being ADF president (and despite what you say, the ADF has a significant national role in Australian schools debating) and the president of major regional debating association, in my opinion makes Erskine significant enough for Wikipedia. Purple Watermelon 09:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)][reply]
- How is founding different to convening, except for chronology? If anything, founding is less impressive, because when he ran it there were a mere 8 teams, from organisations that were already established and independent. If anything subsequent hosts, especially recent convenors, have had a tougher job, having to organise for larger contingents, and having to expand to new areas without debating experience. If the tournament is so significant, then all the winners should have their own pages, as well as many other hosts. Otherwise it would be the same as having a page for the guy who founded the MCC, but none of the Cricketers who actually represented England, and won the MCC's trophies. Of course, that would be ridiculous, because you'd suddenly have thousands upon thousands of debaters at major IV's eligible for their own pages. As for ADF, you are flat out wrong. Sorry. As for his subsequent role in things, it has been largely minimal. I don't really thinks attempts to ride the gravy train further count as contributions. If you want to have a page for him, let's include how his incompetence led to the defrauding of ACTDU/debsoc on his watch. ASsumedly if we're going to reference trivial things about organ playing, that is equally welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.218.27 (talk) 12:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- How much effort it took Erskine to organise the inaugural WSDC is irrelevant. Wikipedia does not attempt to measure how much time and work it took the subjects of all its biographies to complete their achievements - the issue is the notability of those achievements. Erskine is known around the world as the founder of the World Schools Debating Championships. I've added a sampling (but by no means a complete list) of websites around the world the refer to him as the WSDC founder as references on the page. As for other info, if it's established that he's notable any other verifiable info about him (good or bad) can be added - provided that a reliable source can be found to verify that info and that source can be added as a link on the page for reference. Purple Watermelon 01:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So I guess the first winners should likewise be honoured? For being the first? And the first "founder" of all those other comps. I'm sorry, I'm just confused how WSDC is of more import than say Australs, or WUDC, or All-Asians... perhaps you can give me a run down of why he is more deserving than those people? You cite his establishment of WSDC, then concede that since other people might have done more work, the amount of work doesn't matter. You argue fame, yet it is patently obvious that he is among the least famous debating figures in australia. From Ivan Ah Sam to MatyK and Kim Little, there are debaters left right and center more well known than this obscure 52 year old, not even known by 9/10ths of ACT debaters where he hails from. So apparently fame isn't important either. He was the "first to do it", but I can only assume that is moot since you wouldn't support pages for all the other firsts for equally grand tournaments, and it can't be the title he held, because it is relatively obscure and unimportant compared to other debating titles. So, he is not worthy because of the work involved, fame, originality or rank. Why exactly does he deserve it again?Jembot99
- If sombody wanted to create a page about Clark McGinn, the founder of the World Universities Debating Championship (which I consider to be of equivalent stature to WSDC as it's also a world championship), then I would probably support that provided that suitable external references could be found to verify the info and the fact that people around the world consider him to be notable. (And by the way, the founder of the MCC, Thomas Lord, does have a Wikipedia page since you chose to make that comparison). Purple Watermelon 08:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The World University debating Championships have been going for longer, and feature so many more teams it's pretty comical to compare them. One is ten times larger, and has much more credibility in the debating community. As do IV's like All-Asians, or Australs, or Easters. The other is largely a junket, which contains a handful of serious teams, most of whome only debate each other once or twice in the prelims, and has less influence and effect on the structures and rules of debating worldwide, let alone development of it, than any major IV would. The MCC "come back" you give is also pretty comical, the point was that the cricketers who played for the MCC are listed too. Another good example would be listing the beauracrat who founded Wimbledon, but none of the tennis players involved in the tournament. You propose to list the founder of a tournament, which was extremely small and insiginificant when it was founded, but none of the competition winners. If WSDC is really such a huge thing, then assumedly the winners deserve a page, or certainly the founding winners and runners up, under your bizarre analysis. But you obviously don't want to put your name to such a suggestion. I believe I understand the logic underlying this convenient decision. But the heart of the needto delete this, is the fact that he is not notable, no moreso than the president of a student body would be, regardless of whether it was for a "worldwide representative body" like the australian National University for exmample. He has no fame, even within the debating community he is effectively a nonentity. A quick google search of his name and the word "debating" comes up with 375 references (many of them not about him), compared to 811 for Kim Little for eg using the exact same search term. A similar search for Tim Sonnereich comes up with 311 matches. Or 318 for Harry Greenwell. Pat Delaney and debating gets you to over 1000, and he only won a single tournament. 13,000 plus for former world champion Jeremy Brier (I'm sure there are more than 375 here about him). David Ham comes up with over 400, despite being a mere archivist for debating with no real substantive achievements compared with most serious international debaters. Colm Flynn has 660. The man is just not notable at all, most debaters and students don't know or care much about this junket, or the first man to convene it. Jembot99
- You are implying that you think I am Christopher Erskine. I can absolutely assure you I am not. WSDC has been around for only a slightly shorter time than WUDC, and in terms of the number of countries who participate, it's about the same size (the smaller number of teams is because of the one-team-per-country limit at WSDC). And you're wrong to say that it has little influence on the structures and rules of debating worldwide. Several countries (particularly in Asia and Eastern Europe) run national and regional tournaments using the WSDC format and rules, and view WSDC as major benchmark. I don't think it's at all comical to compare WSDC and WUDC. I don't believe that winning a school-level debating competition makes a debater notable enough for an individual Wikipedia page (unless there's something else notable about them too). But I do believe that founding a world school-level championship that's run for two decades and DOES have significant influnce on the way schools debating is run in several countries around the world (coupled with being president of two major debating organisations in Australia) makes someone notable enough. Purple Watermelon 09:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- given you obviously know the guy personally, I think it's moot if you are Erskine himself (who started the page) or his former mooting team mate. If your tournament is so significant, surely you will push for the people who win it to get a page. Somehow you want to have it both ways, even if the winner subsequently goes on to become a major debating committee figure like Liz (of course, she could debate too). Jembot99 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 10:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll reiterate my argument that founding a long-running world school-level world championship is more significant than being a one-off winner of it. But if a former winner was also notable for something else, I'd support them having a Wikipedia page. Erskine in my opinion is significant because he not only founded a world championship, but has also been president of major national and regional organisations (not just associations representing a single institution). There's nothing to indicate that Erskine created the page. As for me, I did not create the page and nor am I Christopher Erskine or his former mooting mate. Please avoid getting personal and stick to the arguments. Purple Watermelon 10:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I just don't believe there are enough people who know Erskine for it to be credible that you don't know him personally, which I notice you have dodged answering one way of the other. He is not famous, even within debating, nor is his role in WSDC and ADF, two relatively insiginificant bodies, particularly important. He has hosted this relatively unimportant IV twice, when it was much smaller. There is no real importance with the fact he did it first, certainly not enough to justify the additional material on him, if the action of doing it first gave it significance, then all the "first" winners and so on should be important. If the significance is from hosting, then all convenors should be named. and from other like IV's too. His role in subsequent years is not significant either, each year it is hosted, the country in question takes all the responsibility basically, aside from a one off meeting per year by the relevant body. If ADF is so significant, you should have their founder too. Add the founders of all the national debating bodies worldwide, particularly if they have other stuff on their debating resume. By Erskines own admission, he did not found the tournament alone- "...the whole idea of a World Championship was dreamed up over drinks at a Canberra Pub by Chris Erskine, Russell Gesling and Desmond Manderson in 1986" says the ACTDU webpage. The man only convened it, and chronologically he is no different to any other convenor. When a founder is famous, it is almost always for one of two reasons: a) the event he founded is famous. WSDC hardly meets that definition, any more than the world spelling bee or pokemon contest. And b) when the act of founding or creating something involves an act that leaves a significant legacy for that event. Someone who creates a school, or a program, or an artwork would be famous, even if those things were altered or copied en masse later on. But Erskine just hosted it one year, then a different group of people hosted it the next year. Each year, the host country hosts effectively from scratch, Erskine plays no real role in any of that. They don't debate in the Erskine stadium, they don't all read the Erskine debating manual (though doubtless he has written some materials, along with thousands of others who have written materials)Jembot99 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 11:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I never said that I've never met Christopher Erskine. But I'm not a personal friend of his. The fact that I've had some very limited interaction with him is not the reason I think he's notable. It's not the case that Erskine convened WSDC twice and had nothing more to do with it. He's still the chairman of its governing body's executive committee today. And I'll reiterate again that I think what makes him notable is that he was the WSDC founder AND the ADF and ACTDU president. And I do not agree with you that WSDC and the ADF are insiginificant bodies (for reasons I've alreday stated). Since you keep making the comparison with debaters, I'd say that a debater who both wins a world championship and also becomes president of a major and genuinely-national debate organisation could also be a potential candidate for a Wikipedia article. (Erik Eastaugh seems to have a Wikipedia page for that reason - you'll probably say that it's different becuase his achievements were at university-level, but I think that the top international and national high school-level debates are as significant as the top international and national uni-level debates.) Purple Watermelon 11:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if you're willing to concede that anyone who wins a major IV like worlds (uni or otherwise), and is also president of their society, gets a page, then there's no problem. It's just wikipedia better get ready for hundred or thousands of people with similar qualifications from winners of Australasians, Worlds, All-Asians at uni level all get their own profiles, since winners are almost always involved in debating at an administrative level anyway. I agree, Erskine is in the same level of importance as Erik for a page (though Erik's achievements have vastly more credibility and fame since they were personal achievements. But then, "those who can't do, teach"), it's just you are effectively opening the floodgates for thousands of similar pages. I think this is dumb, since they are note noteworthy enough, and so reiterate that this should be deleted.Jembot99 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 12:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the number of people who have either won or founded a world championship and also headed their national debate association is actually pretty small. Purple Watermelon 12:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, no, the number with like achievements is very large. It's just you invent a false premise to try and create that appearance. ADF is not a significant body in any way, shape or form. It is not a National body in any significant sense. Nor is AIDA, the university equivalent of ADF. But there are certainly a number of people who have won like sized tournaments or like significance, and have headed bodies of equal or greater significance to ADF. Go to the AIDA webpage. The ADF doesn't even have one. Do you want to know why? It's because they don't really do anything. 3 debating beauracrats run stuff, and why would they need a webpage when they just e-mail each other. Those involved with this "national" body are the same people every year, and are not really accountable or representative in any real sense. Most debaters in Australia have no association with them, or any idea who they are, or what ADF is or does. But if they declare themselves a national body, by golly they are, even if they meet for 3 hours a year. Nobody involved with debating could hope to be taken seriously by suggesting only the WUDC could equal WSDC, it's completely comical. WSDC has only a handful of serious teams, and is less representative in terms of the number of institutions, and the number of representatives present. All-Asians, Australasians, Easters, etc, are more famous and more serious. But hey, WSDC has the word "world" in it, so it's more important. Like the "world" pokemon championships is more important than the American poker championships... cos one has the word "world".... I've renominated Erik for deletion (asking someone who knows how to formalise this), and he is one of a handful of debaters who were not deleted. As the history of his deletion page notes most like pages were deleted, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Kevin_Massie, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Casey_Halladay, for just two examples of how the last discussion of this wentJembot99 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 12:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You seem to have a some sort of prejudice against WSDC. But the fact is that it is a world championship (regardless of how uncredible you personally believe it to be), and is recognised as such by a significant number of countries who send their national school-level teams organised by their national school-level debate associations to compete in it (regardless of how uncredible you personally believe the set-up of those national associations to be). Of course it's less represetative in terms of institutions - becuase the teams don't represent institutions, they represent countries. But the number of countries involved in both events is similar. One could indeed argue that a competition involving national teams is in fact more credible than one involving multiple institutions (but that's a separate debate). Either way, someone who argues that WUDC and WSDC are the world's two most significant debate tournaments is not being comical. Of course some debaters will disagree (they're debaters after all), but a significant number of people around the world would agree and would have quite justifiable reasons for doing so (even if you personally don't feel that way). Purple Watermelon 12:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Why justify it when you can make bold assertions... as I said, what would be more credible, the American Poker championships, or the WORLD pokemon card tournament? By your logic there could be 1000 teams at the poker game, and only 1 team per country for the world pokemon game, and the pokemon one would win purely based on the fact that it's title includes the word "world". The fact that it is WORLDWIDE (which given it has about 25 teams a year isn't even true) doesn't then in turn confer notability. You haven't established at any stage why it is significant enough to not only have its own page, but to have a glory page for one of the guys who founded it.Jembot99
- Of course there's various factors that make a world championship credible beyond just its name. If you read through the various things I've said above, I think I have explained why I think WSDC is a credible world championship and not just a sham one. Purple Watermelon 13:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I think you've been very eloquent in your defence of the significance of the World Schools comp. It is a competition SO significant, and so competetive, that it's winners are of no note, irrespective of whether they went on to win other debating comps, or to hold debating committee positions, nor are the dozens of different convenors over the years, no matter if they did more work than Erskine, because the work Erskine put in is "irrelevant" in comparison to his impressive titles. Nay, only one of the 3 initial proposers of this grand competition are worthy of a page. This makes it possibly the first international sporting event whose head beauracrat (assuming for a moment he really is) is more important than any of it's participants. I think your analysis speaks for itself. Only WUDC, with it's 1120 participants this year, from well over 100 institutions, can compare to the 25 or so teams at the WSDC, or say the 80 teams from around the world at other major IV's. Jembot99 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've said it before and I'll say it again, what makes Erskine notable is his founding of WSDC and his heading of two other significant debate organisations. If any winners of WSDC also have another achievment of note, I'd support them having a page too. As for Russell Gesling and Desmond Manderson, the only thing it says about them on the web is that they once had a chat with Erskine in a pub. Purple Watermelon 06:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks like Erik's page is going, this one will be next hopefully.JJJ999 06:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - the issue is less WP:N than it is WP:V. /Blaxthos 11:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think that Blaxthos is referring to the lack of independent sources for him. I would support a keep if independent sources were found. Capitalistroadster 03:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If you look at the references on the page now, I think you'll see that several of them are from sources independent of WSDC or other organisations Erskine's been involved with. Purple Watermelon 08:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. —Capitalistroadster 03:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Keep but remove the hagiography and get more WP:RS. It actually might pass on WP:MUSIC alone, as he is an acclaimed organist. Hang a tag for needing more sources - the "verify" tag. Bearian 17:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "acclaimed organist"! On what do you base this? He is the equivalent of a large bars piano man, or the local churches volunteer band for heavens sake. There is no notability in this, no prizes for music, he is just the guy who is willing to play the organ for what even the picture demonstrates is a tiny, insiginificant church, which one or two people of note once attended. A local bakery doesn't become famous if Prince Charles goes there once for a tart, nor does the bakeries head chef. If you added every "organist" with no other qualifications for every church, you could add probably 10,000 pages easily. Have you looked at the info on this "largest Anglican Chruch"? Here it is: http://www.stpaulsmanuka.org.au/photo_gallery.htm , even there god damn own picture only has 20-30 people in the church, and it doesn't look like it'd fit a whole lot more. Why not add the 2 kids next to his photo too? They are "head trumpeteers" of this incredible building. I think you should remove the keep on that basis. Jembot99 01:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I think founding a world championship makes him pretty significant. Ilcewf 01:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- comment- you would Chris, or whoever you are, since you "founded" the page originally. One more reason to strike this, there is clear bad faith from the guy who started the page, by not disclosing that he did so, and from his comments implying that he is a free agent. There are probably 2 guys here who want this page, both know him personally at least, one is quite possibly Chris erskine. It should be scrappedJembot99 08:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that Ilcewf is Christopher Erskine. You've now accused both Ilcewf and me of being the subject of this article without any justification for doing so just because we've supported keeping this article. I could similarly accuse of being Erskine's worst enemy in real life with an irrational grude against him, but since I have no explanation to back-up such an accusation, I won't concoct such a story. I know you think that Erskine is unknown to almost anyone but his close friends, but the reality is that pretty much everyone who's been involved in WSDC over the years (and despite what you think, that is a pretty large number of people), not to mention many other people who've taken some sort of interest in WSDC even if they haven't been to it, know who Erskine is even if they've never been personally introduced to him. There loads of people around the world who could potentially have decided to create this article. Stick to the arguments and drop the unsubstantiated personal griping mate. Purple Watermelon 05:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "and one is quite possibly Erskine"- not that he is. But irrespective, even I know you're supposed to declare a conflict/vested interest if you created the page, and here is Ilcewf pretending he is new to the proceedings, and an objective outsider. This is bad faith, which is the accusation I did make, and is another reason why we should delete it.JJJ999 06:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Fails WP:N as the subject is not notable per the guidelines as there no significant independent secondary sources who have written about the subject. Assize 03:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If you look at the references on the page, I think you'll see that there are some independent secondary sources. Purple Watermelon 05:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- comment- PW has a different idea of what is a "significant" independent source.JJJ999 05:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I have re-read the references. All but two references are from "debating" websites and I don't consider that satisfies "independent". The other two references, one is from an independent source being a newspaper. It also mentions him in passing. The second is a caption to a photo in which he is one of four. The subject is still not the subject of significant independent coverage in secondary sources. Assize 03:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There are sources from the English-Speaking Union, the German Debating Society and two Canadian debate websites. These may be debate related, but they're not organisations which Erskine is affiliated to. And there's also one from an Australian government website. I don't think you've looked very carefully. I count five sources that aren't debate related.Purple Watermelon 04:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Significant"- those debating pages are not significant independent sources, they are basically debating blogs. Nobody in the real world gives a damn about this man, his fame is miniscule, 9/10ths of the debaters in the ACT don't know who he is, which is the whole point. You could produce 500 debating blogs, and I still don't think you'd have much of a case to him being notable. I could easily find 500 references to heaps of debaters who have won tourneys, would that make them notable? Be serious.JJJ999 01:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Which reference is the significant reference which covers the subject in detail. Every reference seems to chant "Chris Erskine is the founder of". The onus is on the article to prove notability, not on the community to disprove notability. Assize 03:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I voted 'delete' in the Erik Eastaugh AfD, which appears to have come about following the discussions above. But I'm going for 'keep' here. In a schools competition, I think the founder can be more notable than the winners. The winners are undoubtedly good debaters, but they're still school children. However the founder has established a system that's allowed countries from all over the world to send their best school debaters to compete against each other in what these countries recognise as a world championship. And this bloke also seems to have a few other somewhat notable things about him. Dorange 13:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And you would support the founders of similar sized competitions? From EUDC to Australs to Easters, Mace, All-Asians and so on? Why should his act of convening initially be so much more significant than other convenors, who may have changed the format and rules considerably since he ran it? If we could find a "worldwide comp" with 25 pokemon countries/teams, would that be a notable event too?JJJ999 21:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- comment- now, I hate to harp on rules I am bad at myself, but you've made continual edits since I nominated this purple water. It's against the spirit of the nomination, especially the repeated assertion of footnotes which seem to serve little benefit, but force people to read them as well. Just cool it on the editing please, since you defended it in its initial state, you shouldn't need to keep fiddling it. One of the links for example is to "substantiate" his work as an "organist", but it tells us nothing new, it is simply an additional footnote to make it look more impressive. It mentions Howard visiting, but since nobody disputed that, and you never explained why that would make a volunteer organist notable, it's a waste of all of our time to read things like this. If anything, the article gives us another reason to delete this, because he didn't attend the church for any reason associated to Erskine, or even the church, but to attend the funeral of some random guy who happened to be given a service there.JJJ999 13:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not aware that making improvements to an article that's being considered for deletion is a violation of any Wikipedia policy (or the spirit of any Wikipedia policy for that matter). I've been arguing the principle that I think Erskine is notable enough for Wikipedia. I've never said that I thought the article was absolutely perfect and couldn't be improved. Purple Watermelon 23:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not only is no violation, it is very strongly encouraged by WP:AFD and deletion policy. The best possible outcome of an AfdD is an improved article that gets kept. DGG (talk) 04:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, because article asserts notability and has numerous references. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 01:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It asserts it... it just doesn't justify it, indeed evidence points to the contrary.JJJ999 23:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It would help if there were at least one reference to a conventional 3d party reliable published source. It really needs that to be convincing. DGG (talk) 08:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A source for verifiability or to ensure note? I am only arguing the latter really.JJJ999 15:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I went to the article about World Schools, found to my considerable surprise that somebody had added a link to an article about me, and followed it to this. It's hard to describe my feelings as I read all this bizarre discussion about me by people I don't know, about a page I didn't write and knew nothing about until this afternoon. At one level it is flattering to find that somebody has written the article. At another, though, it's deeply embarrassing, because it is seriously insulting to read that somebody thinks I actually wrote the page and did so as an exercise in self aggrandisement. Like all people I have my faults, but those faults don't extend to anything quite so pathetic as to write a Wikipedia article about myself. I would like the article deleted, notwithstanding the generous comments from purple watermelon, because it leads to the misconceptions exemplified in the offensive comments about me from jembot99 and jjj. Thankyou to purple watermelon, whoever you are, for the thought: but I don't think Wikipedia needs an article about me. If somebody wants to find out about me, they can put my name into Wikipedia - or google for that matter - and find whatever comes up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cme35 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And on reflection this offensive discussion about me raises two related issues. First, if Wikipedia is going to propose an article about a living person, shouldn't they seek that person's consent first? Second, if Wikipedia is going to conduct a discussion about whether or not a person justifies an entry about them, shouldn't it be conducted civilly, with reference to the criteria rather than gratuitous insults? As to the first, if I had been asked about the article before it was put up by whoever wrote it, I would have refused consent. Perhaps that is not the touchstone of whether there should be an entry: but surely it's a powerful consideration. As to the second, I am actually very hurt by some of the offensive assumptions made by several anonymous writers in this discussion that I was the author of the article in the first place, let alone some of the other even more offensive comments about me which are quite gratuitous. If there were a central place in which to make complaints about this discussion, I would have done so. Instead, I guess I am stuck with the wonderful anarchy of the internet. If I want an uncensored internet, it is a small price to pay to put up with a few insults on a very obscure page of Wikipedia.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cme35 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 22 September 2007
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep: per Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#Deletion_discussion, "It is... inappropriate to request deletion because of an editorial dispute. Such disputes are not resolved by deleting the whole page; instead, use dispute resolution." The nominator explicitly admits that he has nominated this article for deletion because of a perceived inability to prevail in an editorial dispute: "An attempt to trim some of the offending material was immediately reverted by one of the article's regular editors... Since the main editors appear unwilling to allow article's problems to be corrected I believe it should be deleted." [20]. This misuse of the AFD process to gain an advantage in an editorial dispute is disruptive, and will not be tolerated. Users who believe that this article is being edited in contravention of WP:NOT#TRAVEL are welcome to file a request for comment on articles regarding this matter. John254 00:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
| If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
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- Tourism in metropolitan Detroit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
This article is a travel guide, and violates WP:NOT#TRAVEL. It lists every conceivable attraction, including non-notable hotels and restaurants, gives advice to visitors ("Excellent attractions for first time visitors to metropolitan Detroit include...", "Ride the Model T...", "Baggage cannot be checked at this location; however, up to two suitcases...", and uses peacock terms ("Detroit's proximity to Windsor, Ontario, provides for spectacular views and nightlife...", "The metropolitan area boasts two of the top live music venues in the United States..."). Much of it is copied from and duplicates articles on individual attractions, such as the Detroit Institute of Arts. An attempt to trim some of the offending material was immediately reverted by one of the article's regular editors, who later said on the talk page that the article is about Detroit's tourism industry and is not a travel guide. However there is almost no coverage of the tourism as an industry. Since the main editors appear unwilling to allow article's problems to be corrected I believe it should be deleted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong delete per WP:NOT#TRAVEL, with no prejudice against creation of an unbiased article. Its current form is mostly copy-and-paste from other articles, so not much would be lost with deletion of this. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 02:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete or transwiki to Wikitravel. This is exactly the type of article WP:NOT#TRAVEL is intended to prevent, half of it is taken up with directories listing street addresses of selected tourism-related businesses. Crazysuit 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Great article, well written... but the policy against travel guides has always been a part of Wikipedia, and it's an excellent policy for which NO exceptions should be made. Otherwise, everyone would be doing their version of Montgomery Gentry's My Town song. Mandsford 15:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete A very good article... for wikitravel, which is dedicated to this type of information. What we have here is a misconception over what type of wiki wikipedia is. While we're on the topic, I'd like to point out similiar problems with Neighborhoods in Detroit, Michigan, Economy of metropolitan Detroit#Tourism, Detroit International Riverfront, and Metro Detroit#Tourism, which are all extraordinarily similiar in tone and suffer many of the same problems.--Loodog 15:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep We can take things like the addresses, if thats a big deal. (I wasn't aware that addresses for tourist attractions were a problem - the feature article List of landmarks in Chicago has addresses, so why can't a tourism article?). Other city's have tourism articles such as New York which mention hotels. The NYC tourism article asks to be expanded. I would be happy to expand it in time. But then would it nominated for deletion? So when the Detroit information gets more complete some are complaining? However, we are attempting to create better artcles. The Detroit tourism article discusses numbers of visitors to specific areas and events, for example. This is valuable encyclopedic information. Assertions that the DIA information was copied are also misplaced. The number of articles has been consolidated and reduced in several cases. The Riverfront articles as well as Cranbrook articles were consolitdated to make them more readable. The DIA is more significant and warrants its own for expansion. The DIA discussion within the tourism article can be reduced. The rush to delete simply shows an aggregated bias by some who don't seem to like Detroit in general for some reason. Much of the information objected to is good information. Other cities have similar information. Even the existing policy, which is probably too restrictive, allows for discussion of attractions. What's the big deal? What is a non-notable Hotel to some? Notable hotels and restaurants have been listed. I've noticed that the restaurant list grew, but I also concurred to a degree that the restaurants added were of a noteworthy type informing the region's culture. Some should try to keep a more open mind. Much of the criticism seems to reflect a lack of knowledge about the region. For example, the Tribute restaurant and Royal Park Hotel were designed by the current head of American Institute of Architects chapter in Detroit. Coney Island is a famous restaurant with historic significance. The Omni Riverplace is built on a historic site Stroh's Riverplace. The Sheraton Riverside is the site of the original French Fort Pontchartrain. The Elmwood bar and grille is also historically significant. Some were listed for their economic importance to particular locality. On spectacular views and nightlife, that's simply what it is. The City of Detroit Department of Recreation refers to it as "spectacular views." Though they are by no means every hotel or restaurant. The region has tens of thousands of hotel rooms. We can reduce the lists if you like, but the Detroit lists have carefully considered what is notable. The intent was simply to provide the accurate information about tourism in Metro Detroit. Tourism by nature lends itself to discussing important attractions. Some have interests in these types of topics. Readers may be interested to know the information. The comparison to travel guides is not really valid, the more prominent travel guides, some of which have become more historic in nature over time because they are copying encyclopedias, and not the other way around. The attractions for first time vistors doesn't have to be in the article, but it was included to display in general what typical tourist may do in Detroit. Some people may have no idea. A typical tourist in Paris, for example, may go to the Eiffel tower and the Louvre. The policy as interpreted seems to be too strict. All cities would do well to have this type information regarding the overall tourism and this article could be an example. Thomas Paine1776 19:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Tourism in New York City probably violates WP:NOT as well. If this article were like Tourism in Cuba then it would be OK. That article discusses the economic, legal, political and cultural impacts of tourism. It does not describe tourist attractions or offer advice to tourists. The listing of restaurants appears to simply be restaurants of interest to the editors - there's no tourism industry-related criteria for inclusion, such as highest volume. The sections on musueusm describe the collections and things to see, not the number of visitors. The section on hotels doesn't mention the number of beds or their high vacancy rates, and the overall article never mentions the major downward trend in tourism over recent years. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We can certainly add more regarding the legal, political, economic, and cultural aspects of Tourism in Detroit. It takes time too. We already have included some things. At the same time, we're not planning an all out advertisement for the social conflict theory. The Cuba article should inform people whether and what notable resorts/attractions exist there. Tourism in Cuba seems deficient in this respect, perhaps its because Cuba hasn't had much tourism since the US placed sanctions on it. The drinking age of 19 in Canada is one example we have included. It impacts the politics and the nightlife. The concept of the city as an entertainment hub for the region was meant to convey some of that. There is much to include about politics of adult entertainment for Detroit/Windsor. I have held off on that for the time being, but I can include it tactfully. Some of it we've actually been holding off on because the casinos are about to open and those issues are still developing other reasons are that we just need time to pull it together properly. There is discussion of economic impact and specifics, much more sourced facts and statistics than other similar articles, but that doesn't mean we're done with it. It seems you haven't given us any credit at all, simply on account of a few phrases here and there, and thats simply doesn't seem fair. Describing attractions briefly seems like valid encyclopedic information. Why not mention that the public can ride the Model T? "Ride the Model T" was simply a concise fit for a picture heading, it wasn't meant to be a promo lingo whether it came across that way or not. It seems if it were not mentioned that would be lacking significant factual information simply for the sake of denial. But if its a deal breaker for you, we don't have to inform people that the public actually can ride in a Model T. Important events exhibit regional culture, something often unnoticed in the US. We certainly haven't fully described every attraction like a guide. Some phrase about the "baggage checking which I removed, were probably added by someone simply to clarify what they felt was an unclear point and not to make it into a guide. We've merely informed about those attractsions that have significant rankings, size, or uniqueness. An article about tourism should describe what type of resorts or hotels the area has and display examples and mention what tourists do. We've included a healthy number of hotels, but it doesn't seem excessive. Its not like a guide. We purposefully did not make recommendations or rankings for restaurants as that is what seems like a guide to me. We didn't advise about prices for hotels, deals, or put stars or recommendations like a guide does. So we don't really feel its like a guide. Some of the criticisms you are making, we felt we were taking into consideration. A few words like "boast" were not mine originally, but we've removed them. Also we've changed sentences at others requests in the past. Its not like we haven't been courteous of inclusive of others ideas. I think we would appreciate it if you would withdrawl the nomination for deletion and let us add more information regarding legal and political aspects. Those of us who work on these projects, don't mind criticism, but we'd much rather spend our time writing and making the articles better than having to engage in these types of upheavals where we have to resolve these disputes. At the same time we've seen enough Detroit bashing from those who seem to have some axe to grind against Detroit because its the center of the auto industry, not to mention vandalism. Thomas Paine1776 00:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If we remove all of the descriptions of the attractions, and find sources for the inclusion of restaurants and hotels, then we'd be heading in the right direction. For the purposes of an article like this, all we really need to know about the Henry Ford Museum is its attendance figure. Likewise the DIA, etc. The existence of several cruise lines is significant, their names are not. For restaurants and hotels we can't just assemble a list of non-notable places we think are interesting. We need an objective criteria related to their importance ot the tourist industry. So if we're willing to stub the article and begin from scratch, including only material related to the business of tourism, then I'd be willing to withdraw my "delete" !vote. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I'm not sure who Thomas Paine1776 is referring to with the comment about editors "who seem to have some axe to grind against Detroit". If he has particular editors in mind it'd be better if he raises that issue with them directly. If he's not thinking of particular editors then it isn't a useful assertion. Personal comments don't have a place in AfD discussions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Huh? Talk about a double standard. You actually have the nerve to tell Tom that unmamed comments about contributors have no place in a AfD and all over this page you do the opposite. Have you no perspective? Your prime reason for deletion is the "substantial resistence" from other editors you refuse to name. plus, what outside source do you have to make the inclusions/exclusions about certain copy? What qualifications do you have to make these judgements beyond your own opinion. Is not number of hotel rooms in a city or region a very important economic statistic? I think it is, I mean you really have a horribly arrogant attitude, I trust Paine's references and insight more than yours. Stubbing an article why? Just add what you want to improve the thing. You act like a censor. Maybe you have no idea how to improve the article so you want it stubbed. Naming of places is not a crime, if you want a criteria for tourism industry articles then do some research and make suggestions before censoring current articles. Are you sure you really know what tourism is all about as an economic sector and thus what should be included? It seems like you have threatened Tom with deletion and then try to dictate to him what is suitable. Where are your sources for concluding attendence figures are all that should be included? I think Paine is being overly generous with you to be honest. Whatever the case- this is the sort of stuff that belongs on the article's Talk page not in a Afd page. --Mikerussell 21:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, please stick to remarks about articles, not editors here. We will never get anywhere otherwise.--Loodog 01:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We feel descriptions of major attractions are appropriate material for an encyclopedia tourism article and are good content. We also feel tourism economic infrastructure is important. We are still open to criticisms and suggestions. We are relating the overall important tourism infrastructure. I have also removed many of the sentences you objected to or gave them a reference. Agree that the lists are not necessary. We can work to reduce or eliminate the boxes of lists, that's really not an issue (except for maybe the events list). We feel general descriptions of the area and cultural centers are appropriate for an encyclopedia tourism article. We can discuss your suggestions about sentences. We can also incorporate more attendance figures. Keep in mind we already have more factual information than most articles of this type. We can incorporate your suggestions for additions to content. We can add more information about the political, legal, and cultural aspects. The importance of noteworthy attractions is factual information. The cruise ship dock is a new facility, we felt it should be included. If your objection was to the list of names, then that is understandable, that wasn't clear. Keep in mind the photo editors work hard to try to meet our content needs. The thought was a representation of the economic tourism infrastructure (and not a guide). Tourism economic infrastructure is very important. And we were working with the layout since we have good photographers. I'll see what I can do to accomodate your concerns. Again, we request that you withdraw your nomination for deletion of the article and discuss the content with us rather than resorting to these sorts of tactics. Thomas Paine1776 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- BTW, regarding your comment that you may change your vote in favor, and respecting your question of whether you can withdraw the nomination to delege, I think you can withdraw your nomination for deletion, and simply refer people to the discussion page. We can add political, legal, cultural, and social aspects as you suggested from Tourism in Cuba, but be reasonable, Cuba is a Communist country under sanction, it isn't much for tourism, so its its deficient in many respects. Its seems a bit overboard to hold up Cuba, a country that has little tourism as a model for tourism articles. We also still feel that decriptions of major attractions tourism infrastructure is appropriate for an encycopedia tourism article. Appreciate it, if you would simply withdraw your nimination for deletion. Thomas Paine1776 21:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- For the reasons listed your talk page, I will not engage in further discussion here. If you'd like, we can discuss this on my user talk page or by email. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep I think that the nomination to delete is really motivated by personal feelings from the nominator and other voters, like User:Loodog, who’s own User page speaks to a kind of odd personalizing of every disagreement that doesn't go his way. The nominator has even foolishly decided to call me a "regular contributor" which is just plain false-I only add pictures when I get the urge; I defended the listing against a weak and inapplicable standard last week based on the nominator’s faulty interpretation of policy and blindness to the possibility the article describes a valid economic activity. TOURISM is not TRAVEL, to repeat. I think the point is lost in this idiotic push for censorship based on personal animosity. There is a very unreasonable punitive push applied here, especially when some of the above voters say it’s a good article! I have never witnessed a Delete nomination based on admitted high quality of the article. It is just too good, it must go! Delete! Delete! Delete! Somebody’s personal motivations here remind of an ashtray- they stink. User:Thomas Paine1776 wrote most of it I assume, and as I know from my days studying Political Philosophy at the University of Toronto, the real Thomas Paine was renowned as a pamphleteer. This wikipedian named Paine definitely follows his namesake at times, but to censor the entire thing, without even giving the contributor a chance to make improvements is just so low and spitful. Really shameful conduct for an administrator on wikipedia- such bullying from someone entrusted to welcome newcomers? I for one hope others recognize the merits of contributors like Paine who spend free time to make the encyclopedia better, even if their contributions require better expression and collective editing to improve quality. --User:Mikerussell 19:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I would strongly advise all contributors to this discussion to stick to content, not contributors in their arguments. The above comments on motive are a clear assumption of bad faith bordering on personal attack. Comments like "they stink" are totally unacceptable in any context. VanTucky Talk 21:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on Comment If you really want to demonstrate the sort of conduct you pretend to follow, as opposed to hyprocritically bringing to light my comments, you might want to note the nominators own introductory paragraph, which claims his motivation to delete is based on: "Since the main editors appear unwilling to allow article's problems to be corrected I believe it should be deleted. This is a direct reference about my conduct, claiming I am being such a destructive force in wikipedia that this article is beyond repair and should be deleted. When in fact I simply reverted one edit and gave vaild reasons. You really have to watch out when you begin to think you are the judge and jury buddy. Address the nomination- as is- and lay off the personal scolding, you ain't my mother, the facts tend to back it up, learn what "assuming" actually means too. -User:Mikerussell 22:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't mean anything personal by referring to Mikerussell as one of the article's "main editors". He is the third most active contributor to the article. He took it upon himself to restore the list of restaurants that I deleted, defended its inclusion, and then invited me to initiate a deletion discussion.[21] I did not nominate this article based on personal motivations against any editor or city. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You can say what you will now, but your reason for Deletion is squarely aimed at contributors and not content. Your own words above and below are all directed at unnamed editors who you claim are so resistent to change, the entire article must be deleted. --Mikerussell 22:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This article needs to be re-written to sound less like a travel guide. Articles in need of improvement should be improved, not deleted! There are a number of "Travel in X" articles that contributors could use as a guide for improving this one (Tourism in Cuba for example). Amazinglarry 20:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete The subject, rather than simply the tone, is patently a violation of WP:NOT#TRAVEL. Any possibly salvageable content should go into the main Detroit article. Even if the subject was a relevant one, there would be no real content if you deleted all the promotional and how-to language from the present article. This subject would be a fitting press release for tourist boards, but is not an encyclopedic topic. VanTucky Talk 21:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your reasoning is not valid, there are several other tourism articles. Are you proposing to delete all tourism? Thomas Paine1776 22:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You may want to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Arguing that this should be kept because other articles exist is not acceptable in AFD discussion. VanTucky Talk 22:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So this means that Tourism in Cuba needs to be deleted too? Suddenly we have a police state when it comes to what is included and not included.--User:Mikerussell 22:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The point is, it is off-topic and unhelpful to discuss other articles. This is about whether policy and guideline support the deletion of this article, not any other. Anything else is arguing around the core issue. VanTucky Talk 22:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Mike is right. You brought up the "subject." The guideline needs to be rewritten too. Citing an illogical guideline with circular reasoning doesn't justify your reason for deletion. You said, the "subject." If you are going to delete one article because of the subject, then you are apparently saying all tourism should be deleted. Perhaps the present article should be used as a model for a new guideline. Thomas Paine1776 22:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- When people refer to "the subject" in an AFD, they are speaking of the subject of the article specifically as defined by its title and intro. This means I think the specific subject of "tourism in metropolitan Detroit" is unfit for encyclopedic treatment per the policies and guidelines which outline what Wikipedia is and is not. This is not a comment on the subject of tourism as a whole. VanTucky Talk 22:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
-
- For User:VanTucky's above comment- you think it violates the "the policies and guidelines" for inclusion. Guidelines are not just that, but your comment begs the question- would you delete Tourism in Cuba too? Or would you keep it because Cuba deserves "encyclopedic treatment" and Detroit does not? I honestly just don't understand the logic here.--User:Mikerussell 22:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You seem to have missed the point. Discussing other stuff that exists is not relevant in Wikipedia AFD discussions. This is about whether to delete the Tourism in metropolitan Detroit article and no other. VanTucky Talk 23:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree Mike, this doesn't seem to be about logic or trying to make articles better at all. Its seems more like a collective brou ha ha of people who don't don't like Detroit and want to devise ways to disrupt the subject matter. I couldn't really understand why someone would want to delete information about a cruise ship dock in a tourism article which is what prompted this whole nomination. There were no suggestions of what to change, only threats. We've researched the subject and worked to make it more readable and better. Other cities and places have tourism articles, Detroit did not have one. So now that it does, its time to attack Detroit is that it? And we've been attacked and harrassed. Isn't there any wikipedia policy against that? User:Carptrash said it best, he said, "There seem to be two kinds of wikipedians, those who do and those who tell others what to do. I'd rather switch than fight" Of course, I asked him to stay. Thomas Paine1776 23:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Tom, please assume good faith in what everyone's doing. There can be no constructive conversation here otherwise. We'd just bitterly attack each other and lose sight of the article. We're all adults; we can find agreement.--Loodog 00:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Delete: I read the entire article twice and it seems more like a travel brochure to me than an encyclopedia article. --Moreau36 23:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Show us a tourism article that you think is well written. Also, tell us whether you would want to delete Tourism in Cuba and Tourism in New York City. The point is the Metro Detroit tourism article could be a model for some of the others since most of them appear to need serious help. So instead of tearing down the researched model and leaving no good examples, why not have an input. Thomas Paine1776 23:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Everyone who is arguing for the deletion of this article needs to reread WP:PROBLEM. There are clearly problems with this article but they are obviously surmountable, since many other Tourism articles of high quality exist on wikipedia. Nominating a poorly written article for deletion is not the correct way to deal with the problem. Spend the time fixing it instead! Amazinglarry 00:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Normally I'd agree with you. However there is considerable resistance to changing the article substantially on the part of some involved editors. In the existing article I can only see two short sentences that refer to the tourism industry, the remainder being a guide to tourist attractions, etc. If the outcome from this discussion is to keep and stub the article that'd be acceptable too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What are talking about Mr/Ms Beback? What editors? What changes? When did you ever offer any changes? You only opened the debate two days ago. Where is this resistence to change? On what points? I am just bewildered with this reasoning. Delete the article immediately because you feel "substantial resistence" to change by editors who simply disagree with you? Have you lost all perspective? What is this substantial ressitence- my belief that Tourism is not the same thing as travel? I just don't get it. And you are an administrator? You are saying that editors that disagree with you have caused this article to be deleted. I am just dumbstruck. --Mikerussell 22:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as failing WP:NOT a travel guide. If the article is rewritten as an encyclopaedia article, with the requisite referencing, I will reconsider. Nuttah68 10:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. WP:NOT a travel guide. This is just a rehashing of content that should be elsewhere (individual monument pages etc) written in a rosier tone. The content that should be in this page is about two sentences' worth (the first couple), so they should be rewritten (to avoid GFDL issues) and included on the main Detroit article under economy or something, and this article deleted. Calliopejen1 18:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Although I find the information interesting, the article is not about the tourism industry of Detroit, it is about tourist attractions which is against Wikipedia Policy.--Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 21:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Transwiki most of the content to WikiTravel, although it might be already there (WP:is not a travel guide as several stated) and the most pertinent and sourced info only should be present in the article of the Motor City.--JForget 23:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I was canvassed to this nomination. I suspect the canvasser is not going to get the hoped for outcome from canvassing. First, there are several people participating in this discussion that really need to tone it down Don't make me name names please... Second, my biases. I am strongly connected to Detroit. I was born there, way back when. I love Michigan, I chose to return 10 years ago and raise my family here. I come to Detroit for projects all the time, and love the things there are to do there. (in fact I sit in Dearborn as I speak, here for project work) I'm glad that Detroit seems to be turning things around, at long last, and that there IS a tourism industry there. That said... this article does not, in its present form, belong on Wikipedia, as it is a travel guide. Transwiki it to Wikitravel, then stub it out, and write an encyclopedic article similar to Tourism in Cuba that deals with the implications of tourism, not just what to do on a saturday nite. Or don't, have none at all. But this article should not stay here in its present form. That Tourism in New York City is similarly flawed is NOT an argument as to why this one should stay. I'm sorry that people put a lot of effort into this... but a lot of effort is not a keep reason. If WikiTravel won't have it, consider Great Lakes Wiki perhaps... but in its present form, it is my considered opinion that it must go. ++Lar: t/c 02:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Glad you agree that there is a tourism industry in the Detroit area. We agreed of course to add other aspects to the article regarding the cultural, political, legal, etc, and a more economic focus of the tourism industry and/or take suggestions from Tourism in Cuba. Thus we have asked the delete nomination be withdrawn. However, Cuba is a communist country under sanction and there just isn't much of a tourism industry there, so its a deficient article itself and non-comparable in that way. So certainly we can revise it. Also, we agreed to reduce or eliminate the boxes of information (except for perhaps events list), but this article is not a guide, and that was considered - it does not give advice like a guide and it does not give ratings, prices, or booking information. It does describe infrastructure and factual information of the impact of the tourism industry. We feel that descriptions of important places, attractions, and events are appropriate factual information that impacts the industry, but we can work with suggestions of others. We can also document more impact and revenues. We understand the point that there is a fine line between guide and encyclopedic information on tourism, thus we will endeavor to reign in that aspect so as to avoid it becoming a guide. We are simply asking for fairness. There don't seem to be examples of well done tourism articles, thus we were attempting to have a better one as an example. (Tourism in New York City seemed not so well done, and it has sat there for some time without being assailed), and it has an expansion request on it. These issues were better addressed in the article discussion page, rather than jumping to these kind of tactics. We were given little or no input or suggestions, simply threats. If other articles are flawed why are such tactics not being used there, again we view it as a lack of fairness. And we would appreciate it if the nomination for deletion were withdrawn. Thomas Paine1776 22:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No one argues that there is a tourism industry in Detroit, or that it has impact on many things. The issue here is the quality and focus of this article, the topic itself is notable and worthy of a properly written article. In some cases it is better to have no article than a poorly executed one, as a large poorly executed article can inhibit creation of a small, well executed one. We consider articles by themselves, without reference to other articles good or bad points, so that NYC's article has issues is irrelevant, as has been explained multiple times (and your re-raising it is frustrating) The point of introducing the Tourism in Cuba article was to show how an article ought to approach the topic, as has been explained multiple times (and your re-raising it is frustrating), not to say that there is any similarity in the places, so your comment about system of government isn't relevant and is no basis for asking that this AfD be withdrawn. Also, I have to question your use of "we"... (we considered, we will, we can work with, etc) who is "we" in this context? That raises concerns of ownership on your part, or whoever "we" are, and ownership should be avoided... it leads to hard feelings when work is criticised. As has happened, in my view, here, there are hard feelings in evidence. All that said... I re-reviewed the article after [[[User:John|John's]] latest trimming and it is better than it was. It still in my view reads too much like a travelog. But I've changed my view from delete to neutral, and if this article can lose another 10K of content, I'd support keeping it (and yes, I find it odd to argue for reducing the size of something but there you are). ++Lar: t/c 21:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you kidding me here? Detroit is the eigth biggest city in the nation and it as well as it's metro area has quite a big tourism industry. I would like to point out the Casino's that just added tons of space and resorts. What drove you people to think this article should be deleted? Detroit IS going through rough economic times but that doesn't mean the city itself hasn't made progress? Have ever even been downtown? Please tell me what got in your head to delete this article. - TheCoolOne99 23:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You might want to review a bit more closely, because that the topic is worthy of an article is not seriously in dispute. What is in dispute is whether this article is worthy of the topic. Sometimes it is better to have no article than a really bad one, and sometimes a possible deletion focuses energy on fixing what needs fixing. Which appears to be happening here. ++Lar: t/c 00:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Precedent[edit]
A recurring theme here seems to be precedent and WP:OTHERSTUFF. The issue of this article's being compliant with guidelines and appropriate to WP is completely independent of the existence of similiar articles which have not (yet) been scrutinized by us. Therefore: find out what makes this article right. From there we can begin to address the like cases that have been brought up.--Loodog 00:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What or whom is "us" when you say "scrutinized by us"? This deletion is the most bizarre I have ever seen on wikipedia. Beback has just stated that he would support the article's inclusion if it was a stub???? And then he has the nerve to say it was not a personal attack to nominate. Read: the article is fine to keep if certain editors do not get to contribute. If Beback and Loodog can decide who shall contribute then the article itself can be kept????? Someone should really re-think their suitability for adminship. I mean the lifeblood of wikipedia is reasoned discusssion, not lynch mob mentality against people who have other views. Anybody can read the nomination praragraph directed at me and my interchange with Beback yesterday on the article's Talk page. Did he tag the article? No. Has any discusssion about the article contents taken place over any reasonable period of time? No- read the talk page. Has he taken any time to contribute? No- he deleted material without any effort at improving the article. When I reinstated the material and explained my reasons, he rejected the claims and threatened that unless it was cleaned up, the only other option was deletion. One day later he nominated it for deletion- ONE DAY! If he actually thinks I wanted to start a nomination for deletion discussion, when I said "go for it" after he threatened one for voicing my opinion, he needs help. And if you think lynch mob is too strong a word just read User:Will Beback's Talk page at User_talk:Will_Beback#Advertising_of_cities. These two editors have some prejudice against the unnamed editors and instead of dealing with the article's merits and working to improve it over a couple of weeks, they end up three days later asking it be deleted because other editors are defending their opinions with reasons. This is just a horrible power trip, I mean the nonsensical assertion that you do not compare similar articles titled "Tousism in..." when considering whether to delete this one gives me a brain injury. I can barely believe what I am reading. According to the comment above the goal of the self-appointed wikipedia vigilantes is to delete this article first and then fix the other similar articles. What am I missing here? Is that not the definition of prejudice? --Mikerussell 21:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"us" is every person on this talk page. This discussion group can't hold up articles we haven't scrutized as flawless precedents. If they need to be addressed, we can always discuss them on their own talk pages, but this article is particular is the only consideration right now.--Loodog 15:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Milkerussell, did you not write:
- Whatever the case, the more attention it gets the better- so go for it- try a delete nom, I have nothing aginst such debates. [22]
- Your present comments make it appear that you resent this AfD. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- New Comment: Just to treat User:Will Beback with "assumption of good faith", I want to stress that I give permission to the nominator to withdraw the AfD. It seems to me, if I read the above comment in an "assumption of good faith" that he is clearly claiming a major reason he initiated the Delete process was because he thought I wanted one. Hopefully, he will have no problem quickly reconsidering the nomination in light of this corrected misunderstanding. I apologize to him if my sarcastic remark was misunderstood. I also just discovered this [23] comment made by the nominator three days before the AfD initiated by him at User_talk:Loodog#Improving the project. It is clear, in assuming good faith, the nominator knew there were other means to review the article prior to any delete nomination, namely Wikipedia:Article review and Wikipedia:Good article and only went to the AfD because he was mislead by own statement. Thus I hope he can recind the nomination in good faith. Thanks in advance.-- 20:27, 2007 September 17Mikerussell.
- You are really beyond all belief. Taking the comment out of context is so unfair. My words are in response to your threat. YOUR WORDS WERE: "If there's no agreement to clean this up the only other option is to delete it." (see this prior entry [[24]]) You are really pushing it, if you actually thought, I thought, my words would lead you to nominate the article for deletion a day later. I got better things to do than get entangled with power trippy wikipedia adminsitrators. Let me be clear: NO. I did not want you to nominate it for deletion. I always thought there was a long process of tagging and debate and mediation and these other processes before an article is nominated for deletion, especially an article that has existed for 9 months and is well sourced, linked to other articles, similar to other articles, generally well written (in the sense there are no errors of fact, clear paragraph structure, clear headings, usable pictures, and logical expression about the topic's significance) is uncontroversial and describes a valid econmic activity. If you have some courage, you will admit you made a rush to judgement and withdraw the nomination. --Mikerussell 23:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment And THIS is why I hope that Wikipedia never changes its policy that it is not a place to include "travel guides". Whether you've lived in Detroit, Michigan or you live in Deland, Florida, you tend to be proud of "your" town, sometimes jealous of it. When there's an article about it, someone else's editing seems as outrageous as a person taking a piss in your backyard. Even the slightest things like arguing over what attractions, museums, hotels, etc. are "notable" can turn into a territory dispute. Even the debate becomes personal. I don't think anyone here hates Detroit or hates the nominator or hates anyone else, but it's easier to take offense when they're talking about you and your world. There are plenty of tourist websites on the internet, and Wikipedia doesn't need to play host to any of them. Mandsford 13:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - I don't have a problem with an article about the tourism industry for Detroit. But the current content is EXACTLY a travel guide, and does not provide the foundation for a good article. -- 17:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whpq (talk • contribs)
- Weak keep; I took out the worst excesses and if the article can continue to be improved to meet our standards there is no pressing need to delete. --John 20:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Keep If you can expand upon the actual tourism numbers (volume, dollars, information on sustainable tourism in the area, etc.) and not just make this a explanatory collection of tourist destinations I would support keeping it.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 20:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.