The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Peacent 14:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of standardized tests in the United States[edit]

List of standardized tests in the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original introduction: This is an indiscriminate list of information that is better in smaller forms, i.e. List of standardized tests in the United States and List of admissions tests in the United States. – Freechild (BoomCha) 05:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Updated introduction: This list is not only about K-12 school tests. In the US attention is paid to school-oriented standardized tests. This list is an indiscriminate compilation of grade school, college admissions, language proficiency and psychological tests - all together. This confuses the issue for the reader who is interested in school tests. This information would be more valuable broken into its component parts as sub-categories and lists on appropriate pages, i.e. High school graduation examination and even Standardized test; however, clumping all of these together creates a pile-o-tests that defeats WP policy regarding accessibility. We have to keep lists simple; this kind of complexity ruins their usefulness. – Freechild (BoomCha) 05:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Freechild, please don't confuse the discussion process by making major changes to your nomination after extensive discussion has occurred. Prior to your recent edit, the above paragraph read as follows:

This is an indiscriminate list of information that is better in smaller forms, i.e. List of admissions tests in the United States. Having one page that randomly compiles grade school, college admissions, language proficiency and psychological tests together is unusable at best - at worst, it confuses the issue. This information would be more valuable broken into its component parts as sub-categories and lists on appropriate pages, i.e. High school graduation examination and even Standardized test; however, clumping all of these together creates a pile-o-tests that defeats WP policy regarding accessibility. We have to keep lists simple; this kind of complexity ruins their usefulness. – Freechild (BoomCha) 05:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--orlady 15:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, I find from the page history that the version of the AfD nomination that I pasted above was created by Freechild at 18:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC). All comments prior to that time were in response to a much shorter nomination. --orlady 15:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that Freechild is intentionally attempting to confuse readers, especially when the user posted the entire list of the state tests on the No Child Left Behind page to make it look as if it came from there first, when it did not. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 16:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please be WP:Civil, and make comments about the article, not the editor. – Freechild (BoomCha) 22:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find it difficult to participate productively in this discussion, when major revisions have made it so difficult to determine who said what when, or even what the reasoning behind this AfD is.--orlady 04:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. This article is not a encylopedic article, it is a list. I am strongly against having articles that are just lists on wikipedia. For that reason, I am going to vote to delete this.--†Sir James Paul† 05:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Standardized tests are a major part of U.S. education, and presenting the tests which exist in the form of a list is a valid way to do it, and easy for the reader. Per WP:LIST, I think this passes all three purposes; it is informative, it helps readers navigate, and the redlinks aid in further development of this area. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This list is not limited to No Child Left Behind; rather, it is an indiscriminate collection of tests that includes, but is not limited to NCLB-required tests. Those tests are listed at the NCLB article. – Freechild (BoomCha) 06:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 07:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 07:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Looks like a well-done list on a notable topic. There are many lists on wikipedia. See WP:LIST and Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists. This is not an indiscriminate list of info. Looks specific to me. Spinout lists are fine too. One can create other more specific lists of tests, and then remove them from this list, and just leave the link to the spinout list. --Timeshifter 07:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. More than just a list. It has a nice break-down of tests into different categories. I also think the number of red-links in this list make it more appropriate than a category. Sancho 07:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Notable subjects, clear criteria for inclusion, a wealth of independent commentary: what's not to like about this list? It just goes to show you that the "indiscriminate" label is too subjective to be meaningful, and needs to be dropped.

  FWIW, and not as a specific or personal criticism of any participant here, it does seem that argumentative rebuttals to "keep" opinions are getting out of hand again. Put your best case in your nomination or your opinion, but don't quarrel if others disagree. - Smerdis of Tlön 13:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I firmly believe that until this list becomes too big, the listing of standardized tests, in general, is appropriate. If, however, this list becomes too big in one category or more, I would split it off into another list. As it stands, there is not enough content for more specific lists. Furthermore, I believe that if the definition of standardized test had been examined carefully, this nomination for deletion would not have been started. Standardized tests are not just "any random test", and are definitely NOT just NCLB tests. I see that the author of this nomination has posted all of the tests on the No Child Left Behind Act page, which does not appear to the most appropriate place for such a list, especially since it is redundant to the list of state tests found here. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 14:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The list seems to be compiled rather arbitrarily, covering a broad scope of standardized tests (admissions tests, psychological examinations etc.), yet at the same time only lists a select few exams. Either way, if we were to keep the information we'd have to split it up into smaller, more specific lists ("List of standardized tests in the United States, as specific as it may sound, is still incredibly broad, and the different catecories have little in common), and even then I'd have to say that the information noteworthy enough to have it's own article would be the NCLB exams, which are already listed (in a much more organized fashion), in the NCLB article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgary (talk • contribs)

Comment. The NCLB listing came much long after this list was created. The items on this list are not "selected", it's just that things are added to the list as someone becomes aware of them. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 14:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I might have said this was better served by a category, but the categorization within the list I think makes it a bit more valuable. Perhaps it could stand a little reformatting, and maybe some stricter criteria to make sure that the list doesn't get out of hand, but currently it seems to be in order. Arkyan • ^(talk) 15:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question. How would you reformat it? Should a more specific definition of standardized test appear on the page? Please discuss on the page's talk page. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 15:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Article is a step above just a simple list. vlad§inger ^tlk 15:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I think that in this process there are two things that we should consider: 1) How close is this list to being complete? Clearly this is an incomplete list, and it probably could never be complete, but considering all of the areas it covers does it constitute a significant portion of the standardized tests in the United States, or does it only cover a small fraction? 2) Is this list useful? Does the information in this list when compiled together and presented as a whole would be helpful, informative or otherwise useful to those who view it? Also take note that as far as state achievement tests are concerned, the NCLB article appears to be more comprehensive than this article, and is better formatted than this article (by state rather than name). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgary (talk • contribs)

Response. These are some good suggestions. I think the state list can be revised. The list does have a limit, and it is defined by the definition of standardized test. Standardized tests are not just any test, and that does need to be more clear on the page. I believe the list is useful if someone is looking for tests of a particular type (e.g., standardized psychological tests) or can't remember a standardized test name. I believe no list such as this one could truly ever be complete, especially with the addition of new standardized tests every year; so that point is somewhat insignificant. On a side note, Calgary, please sign your comments, and provide your feedback about the page on the talk page. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 17:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article needs improvement (it is incomplete, and there are some fundamental issues with the way it is organized), but the subject of standardized educational testing in the United States is a complex and interesting one that almost demands a list-type article. --orlady 21:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum to my above comment: Contrary to what Freechild says, the list is not "random," but is organized into sensible categories. The state-specific sublist is woefully incomplete (not only are many state rows not populated, but many states have multiple test series for different purposes, and a complete also should include discontinued tests such as Texas Assessment of Academic Skills), but neither that sublist nor the article as a whole can be correctly called "random."--orlady 21:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response If the state-specific sublist is to be as comprehensive as you suggest, it should have its own list. This grouping of standardized tests required by NCLB and standardized tests required by the American Psychiatric Association is completely random; connecting these tests only by the fact that they are standardized, not by any other binding factor is an example of how inaccessible WP can be. – Freechild (BoomCha) 22:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Freechild, we heard you, many many times. Please stop badgering nearly every person who posts a comment here.

Orlady, I know the list is incomplete. It will take a bit of time to find all of the tests, and I would like to recruit help from people who actually live in those states to fill it in. I added a section below the table for "other tests," but we could just as easily have two rows in a cell for multiple tests. For example, in Louisiana, they actually administer three tests: the iLEAP, LEAP, and GEE. All three should go in one cell with three rows. Discontinued tests can go below the table in the "other" list. As for the other tests, those will take some time to find too, and we really need help from others to accomplish that as well. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 17:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to find Alabama's and Alaska's state tests, and it took about an hour to find anything on their webpages. It appears that some of the states only have listings for the high school graduation exam, which does not fit the demands of the NCLB Act. Thus, there must be other tests in those states as well. This example demonstrates how difficult it will be to populate this list, unless the contributor is from the state and may know the test without needing to find it. — Chris53516 ^(Talk) 17:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chris53516, please be civil, and please, no personal attacks.– Freechild (BoomCha) 17:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Standardized tests are very important in the US, and are certainly notable. It is a good idea to have a list for comparison purposes. Also, the list is definitely too long to be merged into a parent article.--Kylohk 12:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.