The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Rlevse 02:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of films featuring May-December romances[edit]

List of films featuring May-December romances (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Delete - Wikipedia is not a repository of loosely-associated topics. That a film has an old/young mixed couple in it is not sufficient to justify this article. There is no objective definition as to what constitutes a May December romance or what age difference "risks social disapproval." Otto4711 03:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • What from an objective standpoint constitutes a "significant" age difference? Otto4711 06:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • One where the age difference is a major element of the plot. If the people are two years apart in age, the aren't going to having age-difference related problems. If they are 20 years apart in age, they probably are.Crypticfirefly 13:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What then constitutes a "major element" of the plot, and how does trying to decide if the relationship is such an element not constitute original research? Otto4711 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same way you figure that out for any film. For example, if the Wall Street Journal describes The Human Stain as being about "about race, political correctness and May- December romance" (WSJ, October 24, 2003, "Hollywood Report" by John Lipman, page W10) then one might reasonably conclude that it is in fact about a "May-December romance." Crypticfirefly 01:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That only leaves some 95 items on the list to be sourced (The Human Stain doesn't appear to be on the list). Otto4711 22:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed. I was merely giving an example of how this might be done without resorting to "original research" in response to your query. Crypticfirefly 06:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed the ??? section heading. If anyone knows which section those movies belong in, they can put them back where they belong. Crypticfirefly 01:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting is not a valid retention criterion. And could you please quote from the article what the well-defined objective definition of a May-December romance is? "Risks societal disapproval" is not an objective definition. Otto4711 15:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No art genre has an "objective definition", it is ridiculous to suggest such a thing as reason to delete the article. If that is the case you should nominate every genre list on Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 15:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, see, the thing is, this is an encyclopedia, not a film theory site. Encyclopedias deal in objective information, which is why we have policies in place here banning original thought. If "May-December romance" can't be objectively defined then it should not serve as the basis for a Wikipedia article (and in fact we do not have an article called "May-December romance" but instead Age disparity in sexual relationships which is sociological in nature. Otto4711 17:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you ever looked at a professional encyclopedia on art topics? -- Stbalbach 14:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you think that anything involved with "film theory" isn't encyclopedic? Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 04:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never said that something involving film theory can't be encyclopedic. Please stop making things up. Clearly, film theory is an encyclopedic topic; however, Wikipedia editors should not be the ones theorizing. Deciding that an age gap exists between two characters and then deciding that the age gap is significant enough to "risk societal disapproval" is not the job of Wikipedia editors. Otto4711 21:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not be against removing the "societal disaproval" line. It's just a list of MDR films. Talking about society without a ref probably isn't good. One of the refs discusses societal disaproval, but it mentions that that changes with the times. I guess we could say that. - Peregrine Fisher 22:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're missing the point. Whether or not the age difference is significant to the plot is not the point of contention. The point of contention is that the listed movies have nothing in common with each other beyond the inclusion of a relationship with a difference in ages, and that the article contains no information to suggest why the difference in ages is significant or what standard is used to determine whether an age difference is wide enough to warrant inclusion. Is a relationship between a 60 year old and a 40 year old likely to be met with the same societal reaction as a relationship between a 35 year old and a 15 year old? If not, then what do films involving such age gaps have in common with each other that warrants listing them together? Otto4711 17:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment significance to the plot is of every importance. Whether a film list is loosely-connected or not (the prime accusation made in your deletion nomination) is entirely dependent on the importance of the element that ties it all together. Thus, List of films featuring red objects would be prime deletion fodder, unless there was a sub-genre of films based around red objects. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 18:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the film list subject is well-defined, the article is well-written and I don't think that any of the reasons that have been given to delete really apply. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 18:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can you define in any sort of objective way "where the age differential between the two adults is wide enough to risk social disapproval"? Otto4711 03:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, for example, when the film's plot is based around that societal dissaproval. The criteria are defined very well in the article itself, especially in the criteria excluding many early films made in the era when such age gaps were considered normal if the female was the younger of the pair. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 05:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The criterion is not defined, very well or otherwise, in the article. The only thing that passes for a definition is what I posted above. An age difference that "risks societal disapproval." How big a difference is that? And, by the way, where is the sourcing that attests to the age difference in the film, the significance to the plot of that age difference or the "societal disapproval" that the couple "risks" being subjected to? Otto4711 19:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to give you a specific age gap, any more than I need to give you a specific number of minutes that basketball must be played in a film in order for it to qualify as a basketball film. Nor do the exact consequences need to be precisely defined, since it should be obvious within the context of the film whether the characters feel that they may face disapproval. I think your above comment is overly nit-picky and misses the point. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 00:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Should be obvious within the context of the film" is another way of saying POV or original research. We are not to make judgments as to whether the age gap is broad enough to "risk societal disapproval." To whom is this context supposed to be obvious? You? Me? Some random person who watches a movie and pops on to Wikipedia to add it? Nor should we be making judgments as to whether the potential societal disapproval is based on the age difference or some other factor. If Maurice and his gamekeeper lover were found out in Edwardian England, the first level of societal disapproval would likely be because they are same-sex, second would be because of the class difference. The age difference would be far, far down the list if even mentioned at all. Otto4711 18:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Should be obvious within the context of the film" is NOT another way of saying POV or original research. Films, like books, websites and other media, can be valid WP:N sources about themselves. What Otto4711 is claiming is much like claiming that reading a book, then concluding that the book was about clams and putting a citation to that effect in Wikipedia is original research. Making an independent judgement about an aspect of the film that isn't totally obvious (such as "I think this character secretly symbolizes carrots") is original research unless you can cite a WP:N film reviewer claiming that. Being able to repeat obvious events and plot points after watching a film is NOT original research, it is, in fact, sourcing. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 04:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Take a look at some of the articles for Heroes episodes and then tell me again about how it's so "totally obvious" that editors watching TV shows or films can conclude what happened simply from watching. Two people watching the same exact film or TV episode can come to diametrically opposite conclusions about what happened and what it means when it's a question of supposed pure fact. I am flummoxed that you would suggest that on a matter of subjective interpretation that editors observing the primary source and concluding that the source illustrates a "May-December romance" can be done across the board without involving POV judgment calls. I've already offered one such example (which you have not answered), the film Maurice. Someone added it to the list based on the supposed (unsourced) age difference between Maurice and Alec; however, I don't recall a single suggestion from the book or the film that either the characters or the author thought that anyone outside the relationship would look at it and disapprove because of the age difference. What one editor decides that in her mind is "totally obvious" is not necessarily so "totally obvious" to another editor, and including something in an article with the source of "totally obvious" can't be anything but POV and OR. Otto4711 21:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What you are saying isn't what I meant. "Totally obvious" plot points are ones that don't start edit wars. Furthermore, those controversies on the Heroes episodes all involve interpreted elements such as whether Isaac Mendez truly needed heroin in order to paint the future, not obvious plot points such as Matt Parkman being a police officer. If it provokes a lot of argument, then it isn't obvious. If it doesn't provoke much argument, then it is obvious. Disputes can and do arise when books are being interpreted instead of cited too, but that doesn't mean that books aren't suitable sources on articles about themselves. Fixing problems with an article can and should be done instead of deletion. On these many film lists you've nominated, I'm tired of hearing that the film list can never be verified because you found a few errors in it. By that reasoning, every article in Wikipedia that gets vandalized should immediately be put in AfD. Please try to argue according to the Wikipedia deletion policy. When so many people think your reasoning is flawed on about three-fourths of these AfDs you've started, mainly its because you tend to bring up all sorts of small flaws and nitpicky issues that are editing concerns more than deletion concerns. It would really help if you read Wikipedia deletion policy and applied it when you argue in AfDs. More people would likely see your points that way, and also you'd recognize more easily when an AfD nomination would get seen as frivolous, and avoid all this arguing. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 00:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well actually, one of the recent edit wars that broke out was over whether Peter used TK to stop a taser dart or whether he slowed time. Right there on the screen and both sides believed that their interpretation was "totally obvious." And of course books can be cited for factual answers from the text. They can't be cited to support an editor's interpretation of the text. Saying that "it's totally obvious" that an age gap in a film is likely to risk societal disapproval by citing the film itself rather than a reliable secondary source is POV and OR and is not allowed. I'm sorry to hear that you're tired of hearing that the film list can't be verified, but since that has not been my argument I can't imagine where you've been hearing it. You might do better to criticise things that I've actually said rather than making things up and decrying me for them. Your claim that I am not citing Wikipedia policy is a lie. I have cited policy. And it's not really my problem if you or some other editor decide to look upon this as a frivolous nomination, and it's not really my problem if you decide to dismiss WP:NOT and other policies and guidelines as "nitpicky." I see your responses to my arguments as frivolous, not to mention patronizing, and perhaps motivated by something other than a desire to discuss the actual issues, but then I suppose that's not your problem either. Otto4711 04:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first sentence in your above statement doesn't prove your point, because it is a debatable issue. That the dart was stopped is an obvious plot point, but how it was stopped (unless a narrator or character actually says how) is inherently open to interpretation. Furthermore, I'm not claiming that you never cite Wikipedia policy. You usually have some sort of nod to policy in the canned phrase that you typically used on most of these mass AfD nominations, but then (except on those articles where the policy concern cited really applied) you typically have a flood of editors who agree that the policy you've cited simply doesn't apply to that article, at which point you tend to bring up every little flaw the article has or could have in the future, flaws that are not deletion criteria themselves, and then you try to argue that the article should be deleted on the basis of those flaws. The most obvious point raised in Wikipedia deletion policy is that normal editing concerns are not deletion criteria. That's why I keep telling you to stick to deletion criteria and use Wikipedia deletion policy instead of your personal dislikes. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 18:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You know, you can say that I'm not quoting policy as many times as you want, and it doesn't become any more true for saying it. As for the dart stoppage, that it was stopped is observable. How it was stopped (absent a reliable source) is POV and OR. Similarly, that an age gap exists may be (although is not always) observable. The risk of societal disapproval of the couple because of that age gap, absent a reliable source, is POV and OR. And in any number of cases the age gap is itself a matter of POV or OR. Very few films give ages for their characters. Deciding that the creators of the film intended an age gap absent a reliable source may itself constitute POV or OR. As for your misrepresentation of my actions during these nominations, well, I've already advised you of the regard in ahich I hold your distortions so there's not much need to repeat that here. Otto4711 20:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case, though, I think Mermaid is speaking in terms of the movies in which ages are given, and the gap is brought into question or at least mentioned. In this case, it's neither POV nor OR, since it's a part of the plot. Just saying that it's rare doesn't say to me that it's negligible. King Zeal 20:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the age gap is never mentioned in the film, and the risk of societal disapproval is never mentioned, then it's not going to be obvious and my point about cases in which it was obvious wouldn't apply, of course. If it's a matter of any controversy, then people will be required to introduce citations from movie reviews and film theory books, or their additions will get deleted. That process is called cleanup, and it happens with nearly every Wikipedia article. Arguing that normal types of cleanup may be required is still not deletion criteria, no matter how many times Otto4711 acts as if it should be treated like a critical issue in an AfD debate. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 01:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't treat it as such. Maybe if the list were published in Redbook, but as a random website, no. The linked reviews aren't too bad, the company obviously bought them from somewhere, but you can do better. Crypticfirefly 04:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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