The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. ST47Talk 19:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of bow tie wearers[edit]

List of bow tie wearers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)

Delete - unencyclopedic, indiscriminate, trivial, unverified, no assertion of notability. Otto4711 17:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as per nom - how did this get last so long on here Madmedea 18:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Reconsidered keep. Have to say since Noroton has done so much work and added a great deal of content and references it becomes much more than just list-cruft. I don't agree with merging it back into bow tie as I think it would overwhelm the article. It now works well as a sub-article of bow tie. Although I agree that changing the name of the list to something including 'notable' or 'famous' would be a good idea - and making the criteria for future inclusion very explicit. Madmedea 18:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom ::mikmt 18:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information added since my delete vote is interesting (although it seems borderline WP:OR). Rename or merge the article and keep only the most significant people in the list. ::mikmt 02:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete per nom - how is this supposed to be helpful? Hut 8.5 18:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Considering the new information, merge new content into a related article (such as Bow tie), then delete. Hut 8.5 18:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete but not for a lack of being funny. --Tainter 18:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. per nom. Also, no Les Nessman? Sacrilege. --Charlene 19:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep This is all been discussed before, as can be seen on both the discussion page of the list article as well as the discussion page of Bow tie. I see no indication in this discussion so far that anyone here looked at any of those discussions. I initiated a discussion there to get a consensus on whether to put the list at the bottom of that article or in its own article in large part because the list is more extensive than, say, Monacle or Top hat. Is there an objection to having articles on these subjects? Then nominate them all. If Bow tie is justified, then a list is justified and the only question is whether to put it all on one page or separate it out for convenience and considerations of article size.

  unencyclopedic — Bow tie is not unencyclopedic, therefore the list isn't either. In fact, the list is closely linked to the Bow tie article (see "trivial" below).

  indiscriminate — the list is meant to be made up of well-known people or fictional characters or other entities known for their bow ties. There is nothing indiscriminate about that. Please justify use of that word.

  trivial — evidently not to the many famous people on that list or the millions of bow tie wearers. Incidentally, when a man is thinking about wearing a bow tie or other prominent fashion accessory (top hat, monocle, french cuffs, cigarette holder) he thinks about what associations the tie has. A very important consideration in that regard is what well-known people are strongly associated with it, therefore the list is important.

  unverified — Cute. For every list on Wikipedia with a "verified" list, I can show you 1,000 without, and you all know it. The only verification I've ever seen on any list are the footnotes I've put on list items myself. Do you really want a footnote to confirm that Boo Boo the bear in the Hanna Barbera cartoon always wears a bow tie?

  (I haven't worn a bow tie since about age 7, by the way.)Noroton 20:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I note that neither List of monocle wearers nor List of top hat wearers exists as a separate article. If they did, I would nominate them for deletion as well. Top hat contains a list within it, which itself lacks sourcing and so is subject to removal at any time. Monocle lists a few examples of monocle wearers and offers some context for their inclusion. This list article does none of that. Otto4711 20:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Pure listcruft. Metrackle 20:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 20:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as unsourced and trivial. Send the article title to WP:BJ. (YechielMan) 129.98.212.69 21:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as unsourced Even if you assume that wearing a bow tie is worth keeping track of, the article is entirely unsourced. Dugwiki 22:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • also tagged the article as unreferenced Dugwiki 22:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Struck my previous deletion recommendation. Since my post above an editor has apparently painstakingly gone through and added a considerable number of references. Changing my recommendation to Keep.Dugwiki 17:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• merge into bow tie, there's enough work here not to lose it entirely. Possibly a category rather than a list would suit the topic better? Chris 22:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this list was crerated as a result of the CfD of a category, where it was decided that a category was a bad idea, but that a list might be far better. As such, I'd give it a weak keep. Grutness...wha? 23:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as utterly indiscriminate. List of people with split ends, List of people who enjoy pea soup, List of people who wear tri-corner hats, and so on. --Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 23:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. How often does one have to wear a bowtie for it to be constantly? This list is trivial, indiscriminate and unmaintainable. WJBscribe ^{(WJB talk)} 00:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I agree that bow ties are encyclopaedic, but this is not a list of bow ties (I'm not quite sure there's an encyclopaedic variation among bow ties that could be listed) - this is a list of bow tie wearers. Wearing a bow tie does not have encyclopaedic notability. GassyGuy 00:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete unless someone wants to find sources --Alcuin 01:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge back to bow tie.Previous wikipedia editors mandated this article as a fork from bow tie because they felt the content was important. Why not put a cite source tag on it and let it stay? If people can cite sources then it IS certainly encyclopedicMPS 02:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • How so? Can you draw some sort of scholarly connection among the people who wear bow ties? Or is it an arbitrary characteristic? If a person is known for his or her bow tie, it should go in that person's article. GassyGuy 02:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Here's how: Some people are known for wearing bow ties. It is a part of their public image. Which public figures wear bow ties affects how men (and maybe women) view the wearing of bow ties. They think about this kind of thing if they're thinking about wearing a bow tie or monocle (or whatever) regularly. Use a cigarette holder regularly and you're going to bring up images of FDR (if you're a man) or Holly Golightly if you're a woman. Associations with famous wearers is the kind of thing that almost automatically comes to mind when people see somebody with any relatively rare fashion accessory. It's inherently part of the subject of bow tie. The justification for having the list on a separate page from Bow tie is simply because it's rather long. Noroton 02:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete listcruft. JuJube 04:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, don't take my word for it. Take Joseph Epstein's word for it. Oh, I forgot, you guys don't indicate that you consider any other ideas before making condemnations. Here's a quote then (pay attention to the middle paragraph; emphasis added):
    In a long essay on American English usage in the current issue of Harper's, the novelist David Foster Wallace refers to linguistic pedants and their "snobbishness and bow-tied anality." Nicholson Baker, in "Double Fold," his recent book about the destruction of newspaper files in libraries, seems to have his villains neatly turned out in bow ties: A man named Verner Clapp is a "polymathic bowtie wearer," and the historian and former Librarian of Congress Daniel Boorstin is described as a "chronic bowtie wearer." As a terminal bow-tie wearer myself, what, I have to ask, is going on here?
    First, though, let me organize a lineup of bow-tie wearers to establish a variety. The most distinguished of all, of course, was Winston Churchill, whose favorite was a fine floppy blue job with white polka dots. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a tall man, often adds a giant butterfly to his getup, which gives his appearance a light and rakish air. Saul Bellow has taken to wearing bow ties late in life. Former Sen. Paul Simon is a habitual bow-tie wearer, though, oddly, he seems never to have learned to tie them properly, for the right side of his ties never quite make it to full bow form. For diversity's sake, it would be good to have an NFL linebacker instead of Louis Farrakhan to round off this roster, but Churchill, Moynihan, Bellow, Simon and Farrakhan (a clip-on man, I surmise) perhaps provide sufficient diversity in themselves.
    Is there something about bow-tie wearing that suggests temperament, point of view, gestalt, full-blown Weltanschauung? The bill of complaint against the bow-tie wearer includes, I believe, the following: He is overly precise, cold-blooded, unimaginative, pompous and, let us for good measure throw in, mean-spirited. That's a lot of negative qualities to attribute to a bit of colorful cloth tied around a fellow's neck, but there it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noroton (talk • contribs)
    • And this should mean what to me? JuJube 04:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It should mean you should be open to discussion. Did you read my previous points? And if you don't want to believe Epstein or me, you might want to believe Jennifer Sheehan that public figures who wear bow ties have a strong effect affect on whether people choose to wear them, making an individual article List of bow tie wearers a notable subject. This is how she writes about it:

        The demographics of men who wear bow ties are changing, owners of bow tie companies say.

        Bow ties are often thought of as an older man's fashion choice, but more and more younger men are turning to them thanks to some celebrities such as local NBC meteorologist Glenn "Hurricane" Schwartz, MSNBC talk show host and commentator Tucker Carlson and Eagles football star Dhani Jones. In fact, Jones, who's widely known for his unique fashion sense, has started a company to sell hand-crafted bow ties.

        Jones' image, particularly in an Eagles-frenzied area such as the Lehigh Valley and Berks County, has had an impact on the bow tie business, says Greg Weitzenkorn, co-owner of Weitzenkorn's men's clothing store in Pottstown.

        "We are not an ultra-traditional store," Weitzenkorn. says. "But we see bow ties coming on stronger in the mainstream."

        Celebrity-wearers of the bow tie have certainly helped businesses.

        Kirk Hinkley, owner of the Bow Tie Club, which sells bow ties on the Web, says his company got a big boost from Raj Bhatka, a young contestant on the second season of NBC's "The Apprentice." (sorry, forgot to sign this before) Noroton 04:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

        • I am once again unimpressed. JuJube 04:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• It's a shame these academics didn't have this list handy so they could further their studies with the effects of Jose Zolliker's bow tie on his literary public... and as far as examples of hipper, less stodgy folks with bow ties, they'd need look no further than Magilla Gorilla. GassyGuy 04:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mean academics like the ones at Academica Cravatica?? Noroton 05:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, OK, don't believe me, Joseph Epstein, Jennifer Sheehan, Greg Weitzenkorn or Kirk Hinkley. How 'bout Bill Thompson?
I guess the greatest affirmation of my sartorial choice in regard to bow ties is related to my admiration for one of my favorite literary characters, who happens to be a lawyer. Atticus Finch, the heroic lawyer/father of To Kill a Mockingbird, wore a bow tie. I can’t think of a better character to emulate.
All right, don't believe me, Joseph Epstein, Jennifer Sheehan, Greg Weitzenkorn, Kirk Hinkley, Bill Thompson or even Atticus Finch. What about Jack Cutone], co-founder of Boston Bow Tie:

• • Bow ties, once popular in earlier eras and again in the forties and fifties, are making a small but noticeable re-appearance as a fashionable item, [...] affluent professionals are adopting the wearing of bow ties for their ability to convey stature and enable the wearer to stand out from the crowd.

    Cutone noted that there is ample evidence to support the uniqueness and stature of those who wear bow ties. In the past, famous bow tie wearers included Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud, in addition to many other notable figures.

    Cutone seems to think it matters to potential customers that they associate bow tie wearing with admirable individuals. Noroton 04:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Needs work. Could be interesting. --Xtreambar 18:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Let's add fashion blogger Ann Metz to the roster of people who believe citing those who wear bow ties is something important in considering them"
  To be honest, the bow tie has always struck me as an unoriginal way of looking original. In the absence of any real imagination, it's an acceptable substitute. If you take a look at a few of the famous bow tie wearers in history, you'll see what I mean:

  Tucker Carlson

  C. Everett Koop

  Orville Redenbacher

  Boo-Boo Bear

  And there's more out there. Noroton 20:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, not a notable topic for an encyclopedia. Also, AFD is not the right place to discuss the merits of wearing bow ties. Axem Titanium 20:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Titanium's comment is an excellent example of not bothering to even get the gist of the discussion, just voting in a hair-trigger way to delete. I was very clear about why I was including these examples and they had nothing to do with what Titanium says they are about. There's something deeply wrong with this process if the people who vote to delete don't listen to the people who actually care more about an article and have paid more attention to the subject. I've actually got something to say here and I see no evidence that more than a couple of people are actually listening, and I see no evidence that they are considering the point I'm making. This is not consensus, this is railroading. Does Titanium even have an argument? Noroton 21:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think that not being swayed by your arguments is an indication that they're being discarded. As silly as I think this is, I will try to explain the point once more and then be done with this. Most of the people/characters on this list are famous and wear bow ties. Few of them are famous for wearing bow ties. It's that difference which changes a list from encyclopaedic to arbitrary, almost a collection of trivia. I admire your perseverance in finding this articles, but, in my opinion, most of them would at best support the idea that bow ties are notable and encyclopaedic rather than the people who wear them. GassyGuy 21:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • GassyGuy, as you well know, I was objecting to seeing evidence in Titanium's post that he hadn't even bothered to read the discussion, at least not well enough to understand a simple point I repeated again and again. That indicates something other than disagreement and, I repeat, I've seen no evidence that anyone else has looked at my arguments (which may mean they have and simply choose not to respond — but it's pretty suspicious that I haven't gotten much else by way of response). You're simply repeating your previous point, which is to say that someone needs to be famous for wearing bow ties to be on the list. (See? I'm reading what you say and responding to it.) I'm saying that doesn't matter. What matters is that a lot of people apparently believe, because they say so in writing, that when people decide to wear a bow tie, that decision in part is made on what they think about others who wear them. I repeat, that's a justification for the list. If you don't think this reasoning is good enough to keep the list, please explain why. In any event, I've demonstrated that there is A REASON to keep the list, which some people here have indicated didn't exist. We have articles on the Tom and Jerry cartoon show and you can think of a thousand other articles with less reason to exist than the justification I've just given. So tell me what's wrong with my reason, please. Noroton 22:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Axl 22:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge with bow tie. A fascinating (and telling) list. -- Sethant 02:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Besides the fact that wearing a bow-tie if not notable in itself, it just seems odd, plus the criteria would be too hard to enforce.--Wizardman 02:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've demonstrated why it's notable in the changes I've made to the article. Noroton 03:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• I've added a significant amount of information to the top of the article about the use of references to famous bow-tie wearers in commentary about fashion, in news reports and in commercial attempts to promote bow-tie wearing. I've also added footnotes for every single fictional character and for many of the real bow tie wearers. The article is now substantially different from what it was, which may call for a name change, but it's essentially about the same subject. Anyone who voted before should take another look and reassess their opinion. Noroton 03:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The vast majority of the changes seem to consist of, 'sales of bow ties increase when celebrities wear them'. This could be said of almost any article of clothing. The rest of it seems like information that could and should be merged into bow tie. --Veesicle (Talk) 02:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge with bow tie. Seems like an interesting subject.--Mike Selinker 03:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. People who wear them are often noted as being bow tie wearers, and there are even theories about the wearers' personalities. This article is NPOV, verifiable, and interesting. Because it can be annotated, this is better as a list than a category. -Will Beback · † · 06:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Pointless and vague, as per nom., Wizardman, Dmz5, WJBscribe, et al. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Whilst most of this people in this list wear bow ties, they are not famous because they wear bow ties. Why not List of people who wear trousers? --Veesicle (Talk) 00:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into bow tie, then delete. Some useful information has been added but I feel that it is in the wrong place. --Veesicle (Talk) 02:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete for reasons already stated -Doc^g 00:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Good Lord! Don't you folks have anything else to talk about?? (YechielMan) 129.98.212.72 02:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, yes... the other 1.5 million + articles that exist on Wikipedia, for a start. Don't you have anything else to do other than make rude comments on a debate about an article that you have implied isn't worth our time? --Veesicle (Talk) 02:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per all above -Doc^g 10:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete probably without merge. While the article's defenders are clearly well-intentioned, this is an unmaintainable list. Veesicle's argument above convinces me that bow ties are not particularly significant or unique as articles of clothing or as a sales phenomenon. Rossami (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, now that it has references! It's interesting in the same way as the comparable section of monocle, but unlike that list it should be kept as a separate article since its size outweighs the content of bow tie. Just rename with "notable" e.g. as List of notable wearers of bow ties. Fayenatic london 23:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, It certainly has had a lot of work put into it, and the sources are cited nicely, though it could stand to be a bit cleaner-looking. Merging it with 'Bow Ties' sounds like a good idea I think. User:StantheGarbageMan 9:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, it is silly to think this article is unencyclopedic. See, wikipedia is not paper and as long as any valuable contribution can add an interesting fact about society i feel it should stay. Deleting content that other people have worked on does not encourage anyone to contribute to Wikipedia. Do not let your personal prejudices or intellectual snobbery persuade you that many other members' contributions are worthless.(citing Matt words).--HappyApple 03:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I've made further, significant changes to the article that I think merit another look by anyone voting here. The article cannot be said to be unverified because it's now one of the most verified articles on Wikipedia. It can't be said to be indiscriminate, although I now favor changing the name to List of influential bow-tie wearers or List of notable bow-tie wearers because there's no use in listing anyone unless they're well-known. The reasons why this article is encyclopedic and on a notable subject are now clear from the paragraphs at the top of the article and the first sentences in the next three sections. This is no longer just a listing. Noroton 16:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Is there any reason to explicitly say "notable" in the article title? Isn't it supposed to be true that being on wikipedia at all means it's notable, so any list should only be notable people anyway. Webrunner 19:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I discuss this at Talk:List of bow tie wearers. I think the lack of the word "famous" (which I now favor) or "notable" is one of the reasons we have an AfD right now: I think (could be wrong) a lot of editors look at the title alone and then believe they know what should be acceptable content for the article, or believe the article itself is unacceptable. Making one of the limits explicit may help. Again, I don't want to clutter this discussion up with comments better left elsewhere.Noroton 20:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or at the very least merge per the valid arguments presented by MPS. Do not delete. RFerreira 04:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not delete - Should not be deleted, however much editing is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.204.231 (talk • contribs)

• Keep but I don't think that we should include people who may have worn a bow-tie once in their lives or wear bow-ties when wearing tuxedos. No, we need to keep it for trademark bowtie wearers, such as (formerly) Tucker Carlson or Peewee Herman. Valley2city 04:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This advice applies to all lists. An article should only be categorized using notable information included in the article itself. If the article never mentions that someone wore a necktie, then they shouldn't be included in this list. Requiring that the necktie be mentioned in the article implies that it should have been verified by an external published source, and it's unlikely that a publication would mention someone regularly wearing a necktie unless it was somehow a notable distinguishing feature (as opposed to the occasional tux wearer). Dugwiki 19:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I'd just like to note to anyone who finally closes this debate that Doc (above) has voted twice, I'm sure by mistake. Regarding Valley2city's and Dugwiki's comments: I've wrestled with whether or not someone should wear a bowtie all the time in order to be included. I think I'll discuss it more on the talk page of this article.Noroton 02:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you could make a case that it's possible someone could be notable for wearing a necktie in a signifcant way but not on a regular basis. Hypothetically, you could have someone that made a significant, notable impression by wearing a necktie at an unusual time or place, perhaps to make a statement of some sort. I think I can safely say, though, that the great majority of famous people who are associated with neckties wore them regularly. Dugwiki 16:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• keep I didnt think i would vote on this one, but its a good article. DGG 06:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• KEEP; A bow tie was indeed considered a significant part of the personalities of a number (but not all) of the individiuals mentioned.Alloco1 08:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC) ((Alloco1's vote was initially put at the top, but it was located right in the middle of Otto's nomination paragraph, so I took the liberty of moving it down here and putting "KEEP" in boldface, with a bullet to make it easier to read, of course making no other changes.Noroton 17:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)))[reply]
• Keep as rewritten, with a tip of the hat (or is that a tug of the bow tie) to Noroton for improving the article.--Kubigula (talk) 23:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Absolute trivia, and quite a matter of personal opinion whether or not someone makes this list. The article is largely unverified, unsourced and constitutes original research as a synthesis of facts taken from various sources to prove the allegations made in the opening paragraph. That this trivia may be liked or interesting does not make the article encyclopedic. One would hope that consideration of the content policies and guidelines would prevail over those two criteria. Agent 86 23:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently has over 60 citations for verification, so I'm not sure why you're saying it is "largely unsourced". It seems to have quite a large number of citations. Are you having an issue with the references provided? Dugwiki 23:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. You linked "trivia" to WP:NOT, which is an incorrect usage of that policy. The word "trivia", in fact, appears nowhere in that policy, nor does it attempt to deal with "trivia". Dugwiki 23:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Comment: Sorry, I meant to link the trivia ref to Wikipedia:Five_pillars, my mistake. As for the "unsourced", I refer you to the introductory paragraph that forms the foundation of the article, that presents nothing but unverified, unsourced opinion. The rest of the article is simply lists isolated facts that one is supposed to conclude support the opinions or theories of the opening paragraph, which is original research. Despite everything else, I fail to see how this "article" is encyclopedic. Agent 86 01:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct about the introductory paragraph being unreferenced. However, that would only require either cleaning up or deleting that first paragraph, not deleting the entire article. That also would alleviate your concern about other information in the article being used to support it as "original research". If the article sticks to the facts as referenced, then you remove any problem of having original editorial opinion slip in. Dugwiki 17:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, on an interesting tangent, thanks for correcting the link to Wikipedia:Five_pillars. "Five pillars" does say, in one sentence, that "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection, a soapbox, a vanity publisher, an experiment in anarchy or democracy, or a web directory". Oddly, though, while the other terms of "soapbox" and "vanity publisher" are discussed in either policy or guidelines, the word "trivia" doesn't seem to appear in policies or guidelines (at least not that I can find). The only item that discusses "trivia" is an essay Wikipedia:Trivia, which doesn't yet have consensus (as would a guideline). Personally I wouldn't mind seeing an actual trivia guideline of some sort, since at the moment it is a vague, subjective term that gets introduced in cfd and afd discussions with little consensus on what is or isn't trivia. Probably would be a good topic for discussion, if I can figure out a good page to post a thread. Dugwiki 17:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Let's go over Agent 86's objections:

1. Quite a matter of personal opinion whether or not someone makes this list Well, no. The article name shouldn't be taken literally, and I think it should be changed. That's what the extensive discussion on the article's talk page is about. I think the list should be about famous people who are known for wearing bow ties — this is not a matter of personal opinion, particularly if editors insist on sourcing. "Famous" could be a matter of dispute, but not beyond the abilities of Wikipedians to figure out ("famous" people are known beyond their local community and outside of a particular profession or avocation; I would include famous people of the past who are no longer well known and anyone famous across their nation, such as the Estonian president and the Belgian politician; this isn't rocket science and the gray area is not so wide that we can't live with it and come to consensus on specific cases). If we want to include, for instance, university presidents on the list, then perhaps we should call it a "List of notable bow tie wearers", if not, then a "List of famous bow tie wearers". Bow tie wearing is either sourced to good sources or it's not. Almost everyone on that list is sourced, and if I didn't remove them from the list then I think they can eventually be sourced (Chippendale dancers, for instance: I haven't found an adequate source that says they are known for their bow ties — yet). Even without any of these changes, this is not an indiscriminate list, and that second paragraph you object to helps to avoid it being an indiscriminate list. Note that good sourcing very often mentions "signature bow tie", "trademark bow tie" and other phrases or facts that back up the assertion. Some of the sourcing could be better, I think, but give it time.
2. Original research — here's the paragraph:

Well-known people who become associated in the public mind with wearing bow ties can have a powerful affect the popularity of this type of neckwear, according to numerous observers, including writers and bow-tie sellers. Bow tie wearing by well-known men is often noticed and commented upon, a phenomenon that differs from commonplace celebrity endorsements in that it includes historical figures, including some long-dead famous people, and the topic is often brought up by writers and observers with no financial interest in promoting bow ties.

It's an introductory paragraph (actually the second paragraph). It summarizes what's in the article and every statement in it is backed up by sourcing in the article. I can provide footnotes, but I thought the connection with the following paragraphs was obvious. Sentence 1 is backed up by the numerous statements taken from the Eastern Pennsylvania Business Journal and the Texas publication and ends with "according to ...". Sentence 2 is quite directly proven by every other source in the paragraphs before the listings start, involving no leaps of logic on my part. Please specify where you believe original research takes place. You might object to the use of the word "numerous" in the first sentence, and I could take that out, but I have no doubt I could eventually find enough articles to justify that word. Do you doubt it? Do you object to the word "powerful" in the first sentence? It seems to me that the sources back it up. Do you object to the word "often" used twice in the second sentence? In the first instance, the list footnotes offer pretty convincing evidence that it is "often"; in the second, ditto, although I might add "no apparent financial interest", but I think that's a little fussy.

Noroton 19:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as the list now contains only the people who prominently wore bow ties and were associated with them enough to warrant sources. However, much (if not all) of the first half of the article has no part being in this "list" and should be merged into bow tie. Pomte 04:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for the reasons listed above. Performa62 13:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.