The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) --Darkwind (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of black ice hockey players[edit]

List of black ice hockey players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Race based list, regardless of what nation a player's family came from, or if they are not even fully regarded as "black" is just trivial. Nominating this article separately from the other race-based hockey articles since it is actually sourced properly. Львівське (talk) 19:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. —DJSasso (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment For previous Afd on List of black ice hockey players‎ see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Latino ice hockey players. -DJSasso (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, leaning keep. I ride the fence on this one, but given there are two published books, at least, that focus on black hockey players, it seems obvious that the topic of blacks in hockey is notable. This would distinguish this list from the others. Resolute 05:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep Notable topic, plus better-sourced than 99.99% of Wikipedia's other lists. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 06:04, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been mentioned at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 06:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Notable article shows reliable refrences,It is worth staying on Wikipedia for history purposesMatt-tastic (talk) 12:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I could have sworn that this had been debated a year or two ago. I do think that it should be moved back to its earlier title of List of black NHL players. Somebody moved it a couple of years ago with the vague comment of "NHL is too narrow. Expanding research", but it's still just an NHL list. It's well-sourced, and anyone who knows the history of the NHL, or has heard of Willie O'Ree, is aware that African-Americans and black Canadians have been a very small minority in professional ice hockey. Mandsford (talk) 14:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Though it is sourced better than the other 3 up for deletion, I don't see the relevance of a player being of partial descent, or how all these players fit together. I think if this article is kept, a stronger and more well defined lead of what constitutes "black" is needed, as the list is comprised of a multiple of nationalities.--Львівське (talk) 17:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, some peopel might think its about guys who play hockey on black ice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.164.249.129 (talk) 01:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Being a black hockey player is is something that is noted. In an ideal world, being a black and an ice hockey player would not be worth noting. However, that is not the world we live in. A Google book search shows that the topic is noted. And from that results list we have an enire book devoted solely to the subject as well as coverage in magazine articles. -- Whpq (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Looks like there are plenty of sources indicating it's natability. Patken4 (talk) 21:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: This well sourced article is notable and should bee kept. Dolovis (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, per Whpq. Shouldn't be particularly notable in a perfect world, but the world ain't perfect. COMMENT: The title should be "List of black professional ice hockey players". PKT(alk) 14:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: notable? Do other sports find this notable? Is there a "list of white basketball players"? I mean really now--Львівське (talk) 00:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Other sports don't have such a disparity like this one. Even basketball has a large number of white players. Out of 600 active players in the NHL...what are there like 27 (atleast according to this list) who can even claim partial black ethnicity? -DJSasso (talk) 01:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  What disparity? Blacks make up 2.5% of the Canadian population but constitute 5% of the leagues players, so proportionally more blacks are in the league than there probably should be. --Львівське (talk) 02:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Hockey isn't only played in Canada. -DJSasso (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  A couple players, Donald Brashear, Dustin Byfuglien, Mike Grier, Greg Mauldin, Francis Bouillon, and Kyle Okposo are American, while Johnny Oduya is Swedish. Patken4 (talk) 13:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It all still supports my point, blacks aren't disproportionally represented.--Львівське (talk) 16:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  No, your point was that Canadian blacks represent a much greater proportion (twice as much) of the population in the NHL than they do in general Canadian society. Not all these players are currently playing for their NHL team. Quite a few have played a lot more with their team's AHL affiliate than with the NHL side (P. K. Subban, Maxime Fortunus, and Shawn Belle just to name a few). So, you are comparing this list to a lot more than 600 NHL players. In actuality, it is statistically equal to your statistic of 2.5% of the population. Besides, there are a lot of white players in the NBA. Just most of them are European. There are many white American basketball players that are enshrined in the basketball Hall of Fame. There is only one black hockey player. If want to start an article on white, American basketball players in the NBA, go ahead. Patken4 (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Edit - As opposed to having a list, would it not be more logical to have an article about the history of blacks in ice hockey? As Whpq says, it should not be worth noting which ice hockey players are black. The history of said players, however, is worth noting. Viruk42 (talk) 23:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment - I agree a well sourced article, clearly stating what a "black" is and why the subject is relevant would make the most sense.--Львівське (talk) 00:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• KEEP: Its a keeper!!! This is a well sourced article which actually predates the NHLs own program of recognition of black players. It would be a great companion, at some later date, to a comprehensive history of the contributions and innovations of blacks to the sport. A few black players and black authors have commented favorably to me on this article. Oh, and also worth keeping because there is a racist movement underfoot to remove this article, and if there is anything that I hate more than a high-stick to the face, that has got to be racism. Garagehero (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Make up your mind, you hate racism but support an article that merits players based on race? You can't have it both ways--Львівське (talk) 16:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not having it both ways as I don't see any widespread support of your notion that having a list of players based on race is racist. As I noted on the talk page, much was made in the newspapers about how a recent call-up to a local team was the first Middle-Eastern to play professionally. Calling this racist is political correctness gone way too far. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I can guarantee you that I'm the least PC guy on the hockey project, this isn't a matter of political correctness, its about grouping players together based on some being carribean, some being half black, some being from africa as immigrants, some are born in north america, etc. there is no legitimate qualifier for this listing other than that they have some sub-saharan descent from a wide range of black nationalities. That said, like i stated above, I'd totally be on board with this if it was an article and not a list, making clear the qualifiers and more importantly why this is a relevant subject. Keep it, but legitimize the article and subject.--Львівське (talk) 19:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Well-sourced and notable. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. While I will admit that having a "White Professional Basketball Players" would cause a firestorm, I think having a page on black hockey players is a solid idea and should be kept.Trendon (talk) 20:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.