The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 08:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Mega Man cast members[edit]

Contested PROD. Was listified from Category:Mega Man cast members eons ago. Basically a full-credit list of all cast members from all Mega Man video games that does not provide anything else for detalis—basically indiscriminate information.

I am also nominating the following related page for the exact same rationale as above (just replace the word Mega Man with Metal Gear):

MuZemike 16:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MuZemike 16:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. —MuZemike 16:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as an indiscriminate collection of information. The articles do not show how the list has made any sort of impact in the real world, nor is anything properly cited from reliable sources. Notability of the subject matter isn't apparant, either. Why this was listified from the category and why the category was deleted is beyond me. This should be unlistified and recategorized. Them From Space 17:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it was de-categorized because it would put articles in too many categories. Someone might have appeared in 50 or 100 films for example. Nerfari (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Themfromspace. Too many problems (missing sections, intro, + others). Versus22_talk 18:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I prodded this and the other mentioned article for basically similar reasons. The information is unsourced and trivial.じんない 20:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I note that the deletion rationale here would apply to every single category on wikipedia :) Nerfari (talk) 21:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per Themfromspace. One of many such articles. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete:~~ Agree that both are indiscriminate collections of information that demonstrate little encyclopedic value. Even if it emulates a category, the category is such an obscure cross section that it also proves to be of little encyclopedic value. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
- Delete Mega Man, but Neutral on Metal Gear per discussion below. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Merge with the respected pages. Ikip (talk) 10:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Lists that try to emulate categories are a basic WP:CLN nono. The category itself would be overcategorization. Since the list is indiscriminate in which voice actors it includes and doesn't provide any detailed information on the roles they played in which part of the series, it lacks encyclopedic value and violates multiple list guidelines which aren't easy to solve. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per MGM. Lists that try to emulate categores are a basic no-no and what WP:CLN says about them is very silly. I must also say I sympathize with Themfromspace's inability to comprehend the closing rationale of the category deletion, it's almost incoherent, but Nerfari seems to have the gist of it. Benefix (talk) 22:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree completely. That CFD (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 25) was a mess. I, too, am wondering how they got a delete out of that. MuZemike 00:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note that Benefix has admitted to being a sockpuppet, though I have no idea of whom. DHowell (talk) 03:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - While Benefix has stated he/she violated Wikipedia:Sock puppetry, I'd like to point out that "a sock puppet is an alternative account used for fraudulent, disruptive, or otherwise deceptive purposes". Benefix's contributions do not seem to be doing that, and they've further stated that this user account is a Single-purpose account, which is not against policy. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
    - By not disclosing the main account Benefix is associated with, I believe this user is using the account to avoid scrutiny, which is against policy. And I do not see this as one of the legitimate uses of alternative accounts. DHowell (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - True, but the "Avoid scrutiny" section stipulates that the reason is to "confuse or deceive editors". Benefix's contributions do not seem to be "fraudulent, disruptive, or otherwise deceptive". Also, coming forth and admitting that they have an alternate account basically prohibits such behavior because it attracts scrutiny. One wrong step and the account is blocked. What puppeteer would put themselves in a situation where they could not use the puppet to its full extent?
        Regardless, I agree the use of the account without disclosure of its related account does paint a bad picture. However, that is a discussion for a forum different from this one. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
        WP:SOCK#SCRUTINY says "In particular, sockpuppet accounts may not be used in internal project-related discussions, such as policy debates or Arbitration Committee proceedings", doesn't this cover AfD? I looked at WP:SPI and I'm not sure how to go about reporting someone if I don't know or have a suspicion about the primary account. DHowell (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - No indication of importance to warrant article namespace. Better covered as a category. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 23:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG KEEP and improve. I must stop this pile-on deletefest before this gets snowballed. This list needs improvement, not deletion. It can be improved with sourcing and more information (like which specific works each actor appears in or what characters they play). It is not "indiscriminate"—it's not a FAQ, a plot summary, lyrics, statistics, or news report. It's not a "directory"—it's a list of people who are at least partially "famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic", i.e. they are known for being notable voice actors in a notable and popular video game series. "Unsourced" is a fixable problem as all of these actors can be verified as voice actors for a Mega Man or Metal Gear video game or TV series to reliable sources. Many of the other complaints above are also fixable problems. All the actors, except for a small number in the Metal Gear list, are notable and have Wikipedia articles. I put no merit in statements from sockpuppets that WP:CLN is "silly". Mgm seems to be misreading CLN because I find nothing in that guideline that says that "list that try to emulate categories are a basic no-no", it in fact says that deleting lists that are "redundant" to categories are a no-no. And as the category was deleted, this list is in no way redundant or "better as a category". Bring up a DRV on the category CFD if you want to use that excuse to delete this list. The overcategorization guideline in no way applies to lists—someone already tried that and it got no consensus at all. There is no reason that the wiki process couldn't improve this imperfect list article over time. I'd work on it myself but I am currently extremely busy with real-life events (I wouldn't even have commented here today if I didn't think a snowball was approaching). DHowell (talk) 03:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I can appreciate the level of detail put into your posting, I feel I have to still disagree.

Benefix is not the only one that believes the list should be deleted, and other reasons have been provide.
Several members from WP:Video games, which this article falls under, do not feel this list is a suitable topic for Wikipedia. While our voices technically do not carry any more weight than any other editor, we had to deal with numerous similar topics and have developed a good idea of what is a suitable video game page on Wikipedia.
Though unsourced content is a fixable problem, sourcing would necessarily make this article suitable for Wikipedia.
While WP:IINFO only explicitly states that FAQs, plot summaries, lyrics, statistics, and news reports are not allowed on Wikipedia, that portion of the policy lists them as examples to further illustrate that "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia."
Furthermore, just because the policy does not explicitly prohibit something doesn't make it suitable for Wikipedia. WP:NOTSTUPID states that "Wikipedia is not any of a very long list of other terrible ideas." In short, it is not Wikipedia's job to anticipate and list every possible violation of WP:NOT. We have to read the policy and interpret the core idea.
While I can't say with a 100% certainty that this list cannot be improved to a level suitable for Wikipedia, I do not think it is a likely or viable option. If you truly believe it can be improved, it might be worthwhile to try creating a draft in your user page or transferring the content to Mega Man Wiki.

Sorry, but I still believe the list is not suitable for Wikipedia and should be deleted. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

What you seem to be saying is that even a well-sourced, verified version of this list with information beyond just a simple list of names would still not necessarily be "suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." What I'm trying to understand, is what exactly makes this list topic unsuitable? What is the "core idea" being violated here? What exactly distinguishes this list topic (not the current incarnation of the list) from, for example, List of voice actors in the Grand Theft Auto series, a featured list, which was created looking like this, a list created from a category which was deleted per the same CFD? Why would it not be likely or viable that this list could be brought up to the standards of the GTA series list? If a list of GTA voice actors can become "one of the best lists in Wikipedia," why would a list of Mega Man or Metal Gear voice actors be a "terrible idea"? DHowell (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be quite honest with you. That version of GTA voice actors was horrendous and I would take a similar stance against it. As I said, however, I don't believe the endeavor is impossible. If you can clean up the list and demonstrate notability, then more power to you. That's why I suggested creating a draft or moving it to another wiki. But in its current form and my knowledge of the series, I do not believe the list is a good idea. While the existence of a similar list topic does show poor content can be exceptionally cleaned up, it does not prove to me that every such list can go from rags to riches.

The reason verifiability is not enough is because of Wikipedia:Notability. Topics need to be notable to be on Wikipedia. Though the Mega Man series and individual voice actors are notable, what makes being a Mega Man voice actor notable? The GTA series received a good deal of press targeted at its voice acting and ability to acquire high profile and high caliber celebrities. To my knowledge, the Mega Man and Metal Gear Solid series has not received anywhere near the amount of similar reception. If sources can be found that deal specifically with the series' voice actors, then I'll be happy to change my opinion about this topic. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Personally, while the notability guideline has its uses, I really think it is something that ought to be ignored when it comes to lists, except to the extent it can be used to determine whether a person should be on a list or not. I'll be honest with you, I really don't understand the aversion to lists and "listcruft" that people seem to have. Why is a list like this or the first draft of the GTA voice actors list "horrendous"? Do you similarly cringe when looking at the index at the end of a book? Because that is how I see such lists function, as indices to the contents of Wikipedia. Categories in Wikipedia can serve this function somewhat, but are limited in usefulness and navigability, and can contribute to "category clutter" if an article ends up overloaded with links to dozens of categories. For that matter, do you find categories "horrendous" as well? I'll admit that finding sources to "prove" the notability of Mega Man voice actors as a group per se to the extent that you're asking for seems to be difficult, though finding sources for Metal Gear might be a bit easier, e.g., I found this in the Hollywood Reporter which discusses Metal Gear voice actors to some extent; Debi Mae West, voice of Meryl Silverburgh is featured here and won a Spike Video Game Award for the role; David Hayter, the voice of Solid Snake, has some coverage here; and more can be found, showing the notability of certain actors as Metal Gear voice actors. I strongly feel that FUTON bias prevents us from finding may sources, though, that could build up a better case for notability for these lists. But what I don't understand is the need to put these lists in wiki-ghettos until they can "prove their worth". It's not like this is a "list of people who had a hamburger for lunch the other day" or some such silly list. It's a list of notable people categorized under something they are notable for. It shouldn't be required that a list have the likes of Samuel L. Jackson or Kyle MacLachlan (i.e. people who generate a ton of coverage for just about anything they do) in order to exist on Wikipedia; ironically, I notice that many of the people listed on the GTA list don't even have articles, whereas every name on the Mega Man list and most of the names on the Metal Gear list are blue links. So a list with a few extremely famous people and a bunch of non-notables is great for Wikipedia, but a list entirely made up of notable people is a terrible idea? I still don't get it. DHowell (talk) 02:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Given the sources you've found, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping the Metal Gear list provided it will get cleaned up. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Delete The topic is a bit broad, the personalities of the characters don't stand out very much, and there isn't much of a point to the article at all- I doubt many people will wonder about the cast of characters in the game. Twinwarrior (talk) 03:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as an indiscriminate collection of information. Also, from WikiProject Video Game's guidelines: " Because the encyclopedia will be read by gamers and non-gamers alike, it is important not to clutter an article with a detailed description of how to play it or an excessive amount of non-encyclopedic trivia. A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: If the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it is unsuitable. Always remember the bigger picture: video game articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers." This list not only has no value to people who never played the game, nor would any non-player suddenly think "hey, why wouldn't I just look up what voice actors there are in Mega Man series", but I'm also ready to go on a limb and postulate that the list of voice actors can be found quite readily in each game's credit should a player wonder. MLauba (talk) 19:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's right, and once you know the cast list all you have to do is type in the names to see which ones have articles. Far too many IMO. Benefix (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why doesn't List of characters in the Mega Man series give the voice actors? Nerfari (talk) 21:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My reasoning is that "characters" refer to the fictional element of the series and not the behind-the-scenes element. That is, cast members aren't characters in video gaming (movies are different). MuZemike 23:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.