The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. L Faraone 01:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of FC Seoul players[edit]

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PROD contested by article creator, the original rationale of "fails WP:OR (no criteria used to decide why some players are "notable"), and also violates WP:NOTSTATS and WP:LISTCRUFT. No justification/need for a separate article" remains valid. I know these types of articles can be notable, it's just that this one ain't. Giant Snowman 19:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 19:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious keep. Is it really your claim that Wikipedia should not have lists of notable players of notable sports teams unless...what? There are dozens that are featured lists, and I'm at a loss as to what you think is different about this list that it should be deleted. Calling this OR makes zero sense because it's obviously verifiable who played for this team and when, and it's completely standard to limit lists of people to only those who merit articles (i.e., are notable; though wouldn't all players for this team satisfy WP:NFOOTY and all be notable anyway?). Easily satisfies WP:LISTPURP, plus complementary to Category:FC Seoul players per WP:CLN. postdlf (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Postdlf:, have you even bothered reading my nomination rationale / looking at the article? It is OR as there is a section called ~~"Notable players"~~"Former players" - is that all players (no, it isn't) or is that just a list of players that the creator / only editor has decided are "notable" for whatever unknown reason? At the minute, it's quite clearly the latter. The article is unreferenced and nothing but fan-boy LISTCRUFT and NOTSTATS. Or, look at it thsi way - if I was to remove everything that was unsupported by reliable sources, we would have nothing left. Giant Snowman 09:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"...there is a section called 'Notable players'..." No, there isn't; have you looked at the article you nominated? There used to be, but that was changed the day before you listed it for deletion.[1] Not that the names of headers matter one way or the other for purposes of this discussion. If there are players with articles that have been omitted on no objective basis, the solution is to expand the article to include them. You've identified nothing but potential cleanup and editing issues. postdlf (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So it's now called "Former players" as opposed to "Notable players", but the intent is the same. Why are some included and some not? Is there scope (i.e reliable sources) to expand the article to include every player? I cannot find any. If the article therefore cannot be expanded to include every player then the 'Former/Notable players' section can be simply included on the main page. Giant Snowman 13:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If and only if you can convince me that the team roster (whether former or current) for a notable football team is unverifiable, I'll join you in urging deletion. Do you read Korean? postdlf (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't speak Korean, do you? Where can we find a reliable source that lists every former player (which is what the article is about - not current players) to have played for this club? I haven't a clue. Giant Snowman 13:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be under the impression that the entire list needs to be verified by one source. That's not a thing. Nor do we have to wait until we can verify the entire team roster before we can start listing team players that have been verified one by one. postdlf (talk) 14:04, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am under the impression that the entire list needs to be verified full stop - which it currently isn't. You have not provided any sources - 1 or 10, it does not matter. I also do not know why you are talking about the "team roster" as that has zero impact on this article at all. Giant Snowman 14:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Appears to be a perfectly reasonable list topic. --Michig (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Michig:, how so? As I state in my nomination, these lists can be notable but this one isn't. Giant Snowman 09:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious keep.

Hey, GiantSnowman, I selected former players very carefully, I checked out basic stats (including caps, goals), captains career and internaiotional career and newspapers and FC Seoul 25 years history book and so on regarding players. It's not my subjective opinion. Please believe me and take it easy. If you are Korean and FC Seoul fan, You definately accept former player lists.Footwiks (talk) 13:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where have you sourced it all from? Where are these newspapers and books you have used? Being a "fan" has nothing to do with it. Giant Snowman 13:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean, If you are fan, you expeireced listed players notability and accept it. For example, If not a football fan, many people

don't know notability of David Bechame, They think that David Bechame is just hansome footballer.Footwiks (talk)

As I have said for perhaps the 3rd time here - I am not saying that lists of footballers are not notable. I am saying that currently this list is not notable. And David Beckham was a very poor choice seeing as he is a footballer who is definitely famous among non-fans. Giant Snowman 14:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is website which can read Korean old newspaper sinse 1910s http://search.naver.com/search.naver?sm=tab_hty&where=nexearch&query=%B3%D7%C0%CC%B9%F6+%BF%BE%B3%AF+%BD%C5%B9%AE Here is FC Seoul 25 years History E-book. http://www.fcseoul.com/history.jsp If you reand Korean, Check out them Footwiks (talk) 14:04, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I urge you to add the sources / improve the article. Even if this AFD closes as a 'keep' I will be deleting any unreferenced content in the article and editing to bring it in line with similar articles. Giant Snowman 14:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and clean up - article is a bit of a mess. Needs to be properly referenced and pruned with the list of players expanded with an appropriate inclusion criteria. Hack (talk) 15:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - meets the notability guideline for stand-alone lists. Discussions regarding content should be done on the talk-page. Mentoz86 (talk) 18:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.