The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lauren Baltayan[edit]

Lauren Baltayan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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No achievement so far. Seems non-notable Charsaddian (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Charsaddian (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Article is doomed to be a stub forever in my opinion. Her achievements and biography are already sufficiently covered elsewhere, and is not notable enough to warrant inclusion on Wikipedia according to WP:ATHLETE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agentdoge (talk • contribs) 21:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Doomed to be a stub forever? At the age of 16 she's already won an international professional tournament, she's represented her country and she's won multiple national U19's. Dr. Vogel (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Women, and France. Shellwood (talk) 21:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. She's won a professional tournament in the international tour. That alone makes her notable already. She also represents her country. And she has won multiple international under 19 tournaments. And all that by the age of 16. And she was the youngest ever European player to win a PSA title.^[1] Dr. Vogel (talk) 01:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @DrVogel, per wide consensus, sportspeople are required to meet GNG and a GNG-contributing source must be cited in their article. Her achievements do not confer or even predict notability; sourcing must be found that demonstrates she actually is notable. JoelleJay (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Agree with whats already been written. Whitemancanjump23 (talk) 06:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  with what specifically? Dr. Vogel (talk) 09:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Baltayan won the Open des Bretzels, which was a Challenger 5 level competition,^[2] the second lowest challenger level,^[3] so I doubt that it indicates notability on its own. TSventon (talk) 14:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for your comment. It's a professional tournament in the world tour. And several other reasons have been presented as well. Dr. Vogel (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I have no idea what's going on with the SPAs in this discussion, but anyways. In addition to the actual major tournament win, we also have significant coverage of her across years. Here and here are just two examples. Silverseren^C 02:57, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Silver seren, I couldn't find any good sources online. Le Parisien looks like a start, could you access the entire L'Alsace article? I couldn't see significant coverage and it is also local coverage of an event in Mulhouse. The tournament is at challenger 5 level, which I believe means a top prize of $5,000 and it is aimed at younger athletes. TSventon (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

$5K may seem meagre to outsiders, but that's the reality of squash. There's orders of magnitude difference between prize money in squash and for example tennis. Low money doesn't mean it's not a significant tournament in the professional world tour. Which BTW I think it's tremendously unfair to these superb athletes. Dr. Vogel (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as a major event champion and per the sources added by Silverseren which show some level of notability. And even if these are not quite to the level of WP:GNG, then we need to use WP:COMMONSENSE and keep the article anyway because Wikipedia is better off having an article about one of the top young athletes in their game. Frank Anchor 18:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per keepers, but can someone fix the gibberish in the infobox! Johnbod (talk) 23:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The only independent coverage of her I can find - already quoted above by keep !voter - clearly fails WP:YOUNGATH. No problem with re-creation once she becomes notable, but as of yet, she clearly fails WP:GNG, and winning a professional tournament - especially one with a prize of only $5k - means nothing. SportingFlyer T·C 13:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi, as explained above, the prize money means nothing. Prize money in squash is ridiculously low. This is a major tournament. Dr. Vogel (talk) 14:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment More sources that discuss the subject have been added. Dr. Vogel (talk) 15:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  One of which was a brief mention from the French Squash Federation and the other of which was an interview from the same organisation, which still unfortunately doesn't count towards WP:GNG. This may just be WP:TOOSOON. SportingFlyer T·C 16:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Those are sources written about the subject. And they join the various other sources that talk directly about the subject and consist of prose that gives information about her biography. And there are more, e.g. found by @Silver seren, which we can't access due to paywalls.

  I think WP:TOOSOON would apply if, for example, this athlete had had a brilliant junior career, but had yet to win a senior professional tournament.

  That is not the case here. This athlete has won a senior professional tournament, and is in fact the youngest European, male or female, to ever achieve that, as some of the sources discuss.

  It's remarkable that there are several sources written about her, given the low coverage that squash gets because it's not on TV. And even more remarkable for a female athlete.

  Those unfamiliar with squash may not know about the comparatively lower coverage because it's not on TV. And not being on TV also means smaller prize money. Things need to be taken in context.

  And there's also the common sense and better off points made by @Frank Anchor and @Johnbod. Dr. Vogel (talk) 01:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  She's a young athlete who hasn't been covered in any non squash-related coverage, as far as I can tell. All but one source currently in the article has some sort of problem with demonstrating notability - not independent of the subject or simple links to events she's played in. The only possibly good source in the article for notability is the Le Parisien article. If she keeps it up and there's more coverage, she's eligible, but unfortunately after a big brouhaha - if I can invoke a little French - over sports stubs we no longer keep sports stubs based on database entries and non-independent sources. SportingFlyer T·C 09:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't know what you mean - there are multiple sources cited in the article, where multiple authors from multiple different organisations have written about the subject. And WP:ATHLETE only requires 1. Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:33, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  NSPORT requires GNG to be met, which means multiple SIGCOV IRS sources. SPORTSBASIC requires at least one source to be cited in the article. JoelleJay (talk) 00:11, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Those sources are explicitly excluded from counting toward notability because they are not independent of the subject. NSPORT is very clear on this. JoelleJay (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, Baltayan does not pass GNG. The fact that Squash is a relatively unpopular sport that few watch is an explanation as to why she is not notable, not a reason for why the article should be kept. Devonian Wombat (talk) 12:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not the point, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My point is that, despite squash receiving far less coverage than say for example tennis, this player has been the subject of multiple pieces. Multiple authors, from multiple organisations, including 2 French newspapers, have written about her. Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. TOOSOON. Although she has some decent coverage found above, the sourcing just isn't enough to overcome YOUNGATH and GNG issues. JoelleJay (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I don't see a consensus here and I'd rather not close it as No Consensus yet so I'm relisting it for another week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the above sources which provide enough coverage to pass GNG especially considering squas receives much less overall coverage than many other sports. Also, any YOUNGATH concerns are invalid since she was the winner of a professional squash tournament on the world tour. Carson Wentz (talk) 14:45, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.