- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete many sources, none reliable. ~ trialsanderrors 02:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Jun (musician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)
Alleged pre-debut album member of Japanese band X Japan. No reliable sources have been presented to confirm involvement with the group, no mention of that person on the band's or any of the verfied members' official websites. Hence notability in general very questionable. Cyrus XIII 22:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Neier 01:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The Japanese wikipedia article on X Japan (ja:X JAPAN) mentions Jun as a guitarist when they were an indy band, and there is an article (ja:高井寿) about him. Perhaps to be taken with a grain of salt, as there is just two anonymous IP editors who worked on the Japanese bio article. Neier 01:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And, even more so, as the references to Jun in X JAPAN (Japanese wikipedia) were all added just four days ago. Neier 01:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure whether I am reading this right but hasn't this article already been considered for deletion at some point but the respective tag was quickly removed by the anonymous article creator without any comment? Anyway, this could very well be a case where information is transfered from one Wikipedia to another without considering its validity. - Cyrus XIII 13:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that looks like a speedy deletion tag. Via Amazon, I could verify that the part about 高井寿 writing several instructional guitar books is true; but, that alone would not pass WP:BIO. A WP:V reference that puts him in X Japan at any point is needed, to keep the article. Neier 14:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This will change this trouble, Jun's official website: http://www.geocities.jp/takaihisashi2005/ , you're happy now? :) Darkcat21 21:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, not happy yet. This page is not WP:V as described by Cyrus below. I can make a geocities page that puts me as the keyboardist of X, and that would be just as verifiable. Neier 01:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- (deindent) WP:V says the following about this kind of source: Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. And the absence of any confirmation regarding an involvement of this Jun character on the band's or any of known members' websites (such as www.hide-city.com or www.yoshiki.net) further weakens any claims this GeoCities page might make. - Cyrus XIII 21:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Do I have to link to some videos that you can see Jun? 81.184.83.200 22:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you aware that weighing in on a discussion both with a registered account and an IP could be considered sock puppetry? Because I find it quite peculiar that pretty much all IPs recently used in X Japan related content disputes originate from Spain (Barcelona area), the country Darkcat21 has previously stated to be from.[1] - Cyrus XIII 22:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I'm that IPs, but I just add stuff from school, anyway you're trying to avoid the official website, or whatever? Check the X Japan discussion, please. Darkcat21 22:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Copied over from Talk:X Japan in order to focus discussion on the matter on a single page:
- You are missing the point. This best source (as I have stated numerous times by now) does not qualify as a reliable source per WP:RS, it is self-published material, neither backed by the official website of the band nor those of the former members which we can be certain about. The other references you have introduced in this dispute are no better, as they all rely on user contributed content. Given that the flow of information between Japan and the band's non-Japanese fans is not only hampered by the years which have passed since the group's split but also a considerable language barrier, widespread gossip and misinformation would come as no surprise. Any further discussion on this particular matter should take place on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jun (musician). ~ Cyrus XIII 00:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're saying that the Geocities page is mine? Look: http://www.kellysimonz.com/j_index/index.html Kelly Simonz's official pages he linkes to my site!! wow!, look: http://www.kyosoku.com/product_01.html#kd001 this page, if you see at the bottom you'll see a small biography of Jun, it says X, wow! Takeshi Hada also links to Jun's official webiste: http://home.netyou.jp/ff/rain/link.html, come on! it's official that site, lot of japanese bands create their own webiste, and they host it in free servers. Darkcat21 13:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Of all the sources offered, none seem to meet WP:RS. ShadowHalo 17:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, finally and with lot of help I have got the reliable sources you have said.
Rommel, was a japanese band, Jun or Shu or H. Takai was one of their members (you can see also this in his OFFICIAL webpage), well, look at this:
http://www.rockdetector.com/officialbio,41051.sm;jsessionid=1342D8071BA23965902521B05A61684A
Rommel information from Rockdetector a copyrighted news article webpage.
Frontman "Shu" (Hisashi Takai) had credits with EMPEROR and X.
OK, then we have Extasy Records official webpage (http://www.extasyrecords.co.jp/eng/company/index.html) look what it says:
1986.04
Establish EXTASY RECORDS upon releasing X' new single, [ORGASM]
Then you check the Wikipage about this: Orgasm_(song) oh, look at the cover there's a guy at the right, who is he? JUN. (you can also check this in his official website). Do I have to say more? You can see, copyrighted webpages talk about Jun, and lot of more sites also, as you can see the 4 ciations I added yesterday in the main article (X Japan). Darkcat21 19:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's see what Rockdetector's FAQ has to say about the origin of its content:
- CAN I CONTRIBUTE TO ROCKDETECTOR?
Yes you can. We are always on the look out for people with specialist knowledge, solid writing skills, dedication and enthusiasm.
WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION?
Direct from bands, labels, PR companies, contributors and twenty years of information gathering.
- So basicly this site is yet another unfit source, as it relies on user contributed content, just like Wikipedia. Same goes for the supposed cover scan you mentioned, its origin and authenticity cannot be verified by existence alone. See this policy regarding the viability of images as sources. - Cyrus XIII 20:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Read this also by the way: http://www.geocities.jp/takaihisashi2005/QUESTION.html, really this is one of the most stupid situations since I'm on Wikipedia, I find stupid how people can say that this man doesn't exists, really I don't understand it. Darkcat21 20:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We know he exists. The problem is that there are no reliable sources that establish his notability or tell us about him. You may want to read Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Notability (music) to find out more. ShadowHalo 22:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We have here a chinese site (I guess) talking about Jun: http://pos.vvpo.com/type-yd.asp?CID=37240, you can see he's a former member of X Japan. Then another apge: http://moidixmois.altervista.org/members.htm, read. Or this: http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Gyorai-l-fr.htmlDarkcat21 16:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- More self-published/user contributed content and in case of vvpo.com I am having trouble to even verify what the page does and where it gets any of its artist related information. - Cyrus XIII 19:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll keep on findind sources, and if the articles is deleted I'll create it again. Bt the way check the chinese page they also cite the GeoCities site as official, well is officil, you may know that lot of japanese indie acts host their pages in this kind of servers. Darkcat21 20:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(deindent) Practically announcing to disregard any consensus reached in this discussion, should you find it unfavorable, might not be a good idea. And you also do not seem to have read, understood or cared about the numerous Wikipedia policies which have previously been mentioned here by me and the other editors. - Cyrus XIII 20:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Darkcat21 20:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. I still see no reliable sources, but even if I did take the citations to be reliable, I don't think that he would pass notability. Dekimasu 11:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No notabilty? haha, well if you actually remove the article someone will create it again, he's a Japanese musician, he released an album, he had a solo career, he was in other bands like Rommel, etc. Darkcat21 12:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But none of those things are mentioned in the article. I do not object to a well-sourced article that shows notability, but this is not it. If there was an assertion of notability here, then we could get back to talking about WP:V. Dekimasu 13:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Kungfu Adam (talk) 16:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.