The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see consensus in this discussion to Keep this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Kiss (artist)[edit]

John Kiss (artist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Dubious notability. Can find virtually no coverage by reliable sources, seems to exist only to promote the subject. Noting for the record that a different version of this article was previously deleted in this AfD Fastily 22:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Artists and Israel. Shellwood (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 02:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - It's going to take a while to go through 107 sources for this person. I wonder what the three best ones are. One sentence alone starting with "Over the years," has 14 citations. An online BEFORE search on English language Google reveals only social media, his own website and user-submitted content; I'm not finding what one usually sees for notable visual artists. This may be a WP:TNT situation if it turns out he's notable. I am tempted to prune back everything in the article that is unsourced and/or sourced to blogs and low quality sources to better see what might be there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Netherzone (talk • contribs) 14:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough - several sources completely vanished over time and their previously cited content may have to go; the correct approach would be to simply trim the article where needed, instead of burying it too... Chelseam5 (talk) 02:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors and Visual arts. Netherzone (talk) 14:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I just spent hours on this article and there is so much more to do. The refs are mostly junk (tourist sites with one mention of his art; youtube videos) and very little of it supports the content of the article. I have yet to find a substantial reliable source, although it is taking a while because of the need to translate some of the refs. If anyone has the energy to do some work on this I will follow up on that. In the end, I don't think this person is a notable artist. Lamona (talk) 17:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Nominator's claim re notability appears to be incorrect (misses happen), it can, along with the above two reasonable comments, be enlightened by the following sources found, which cover the subject and/or his artwork exclusively (rather than giving it "just" considerable mentions): major national media sources such Haaretz and Ynet had entire stories about the artist [see [1]), and over a dozen respected blogs in the relevant niche(s) with some (again) writing fully about his work such as Reform (magazine) (see [2]) and others [3] from different countries, including the ABC (newspaper) [4]. Lastly the internationally known BLP article has been balanced and reviewed by other educational peers to ensure neutral descriptions, yet we do encourage removing anything that is not purely encyclopedic of course. Chelseam5 (talk) 02:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Please provide a link to the Haaretz article, as it's currently unverifiable. BTW, ABC is churnalism, not a reliable source. Will look into the others you posted here. Netherzone (talk) 02:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • A difficulty I am running into is that Google translate fails to translate any web pages in Hebrew except the very short ones, so it is very hard to evaluate those sources. I do think that the many tourism articles (most of which are not substantially about Kiss) should be removed, although one or two could be included in external links. There are significant parts of the article that are not verified in sources, in particular the more "chatty" portions about the artist's thoughts ("In his style, Kiss was influenced by artists including Friedensreich Hundertwasser and Gaudi, which encouraged him to create public art using colorful pallets." - none of which is in the sources listed). The translation that I did get for the Ynet article calls the article a "blog post", but I think it's a casual column about the neighborhood. The Reform magazine article is just two paragraphs and is mainly about the characters in one work. So I'm still looking for the 2-3 substantial articles, although we may be able to make it up with a number of brief ones. After hours of editing I'm verging on opting for a TNT, starting with a handful of reliable sources and building on those. We do, though, need an editor who can read Hebrew, or I don't think we'll achieve GNG. Lamona (talk) 01:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your insights (and sorry for the late reply here stemming from external overloads...) Blogs/personal websites often offer a more detailed and direct reporting of a given subject and are rightly found across wiki; in the citation process of this article an excessive number of those or a handful of mismatch citation spots may have occurred - I have no objection to removing these contents (that's what our community editing is for after all). Searching on the Haaretz website for the artist's name in Hebrew I did find quick mentions in articles about different exhibitions/ graffiti works, admittedly I'm not sure about other results on that news site as it requires an expensive subscription to continue reading. Anyway this is very far from a WP:STARTOVER case (more like a GO-OVER)! Chelseam5 (talk)
  • The issue with many of the less formal sources is that this article is WP:OVERKILL so the lesser cites should be removed when a stronger one exists. Lamona (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I admit I am not a great fan of graffiti, but still I think this particular artist is sufficiently well-known and written about to have a Wikipedia page. Haaretz and The Forward, in particular, are reliable references.--Hazooyi (talk) 10:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep That there are decent-length articles on French Wikipedia, Hebrew Wikipedia, Polish Wikipedia and Russian Wikipedia (and a Start- or C-class article on Arabic Wikipedia suggests that his notability is likely to be easier to demonstrate if we can find someone who can read Hebrew. The Russian article has an interview on Leumi Blog regarding his being in the collection of Bank Leumi (the Israeli National Bank) and that looks to be an official blog of the national bank so is presumably reliable, even if it doesn't look quite as polished as we might expect of a bank now, nearly 15 years later. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 14:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment- Reopened and relisted for more thorough analysis of the sources provided. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Request/Question to those watching this AfD. Please post links to the the three best verifiable sources, along with associated URLs. Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Netherzone (talk • contribs) 16:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This source that is cited in the French Wiki is substantial. So I would count that as one verifiable and substantial source. In fact, some of the un-sourced info in the article might get sourced through this. Lamona (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Lamona, yes, I agree and have added it to the article. I started to trim the blogs and also found some word-for-word copyvio material. I'm going to continue to clean up. Thanks for your comments. Netherzone (talk) 18:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - I've checked enough of the sources to establish that he meets GNG criteria for notability. Also cleaned up the worst of the blogs and unreliable sources, and moved some unsourced claims to the article talk page. It still needs more clean up, a maintenance tag may be useful to alert other editors to help out. Netherzone (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per first AfD's arguments. It seems this guy spends so much time for self-promotion. Existence on other wikis are referred as a sign of notability here, as far as I can see all are created by the socks of this guy, as it can be seen from first AfD as well, or a simple bot creation. Appears to be an elaborate promotional activity, can't establish notability. Tehonk (talk) 23:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Notability is stated through several major Israeli and International newspapers. Ovedc (talk) 05:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.