The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. With the finding of additional sources, there now appears to be a consensus that the character has self-standing notability Nosebagbear (talk) 09:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This article does not demonstrate notability in any way. The "Character development and design" section is copied directly from Development of The Last of Us; "Attributes" has no useful or notable information; "Appearance" is just plot straight from List of The Last of Us characters; and "Reception" is copied directly from The Last of Us#Reception and is only about his relationship with another character, not him as an individual (with an extra listicle on "sexy video game characters"). Fellow game character Ellie has received enough coverage to demonstrate notability, but the same cannot be said about Joel, and his coverage is best left at the characters article. – Rhain☔ 00:08, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment@Rhain:, I noticed you created the article on Ellie which is now a GA article. Both characters received the same amount of coverage and awards. Both pass WP:GNG, is covered by multiple reliable sources, and has similar influence on gaming culture. Joel article could be massively expanded and pass GA. Valoemtalkcontrib 05:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having researched the game, its development, and reception, I can confidently say that Joel has not received the same amount of coverage (or awards) as Ellie, nor has he had the same impact on gaming culture. There’s a reason I’ve never split the article myself for the topic; the character is simply not notable enough. – Rhain☔ 05:48, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is based on secondary reliable sources, having the exact same level of coverage is not a requirement. In most of the sources which mention Ellie, Joel is mentioned as well, for example in this Game Informer source Joel is mentioned:
“
The Last of Us tells the story of Joel, a taciturn smuggler, and Ellie, a brash young girl. They are brought together by chance in the months following a global epidemic that has killed millions and left thousands of others wandering the country as sightless, feral "infected.
This duo's journey starts with a simple transaction. In exchange for a cache of weapons, Joel and his partner Tess are tasked with delivering Ellie to a group of revolutionary survivalists who believe she holds the key to a possible cure for the disease. It ends with one of the most complex conclusions I've ever seen in a game. In between, you experience a survival adventure that features both quiet beauty and brutal violence in abundance.
Though Joel and Ellie's journey is grim, it remains rooted in one of the most poignant, well-drawn relationships I've seen in video games. The light, campy quality of the Uncharted series causes some to overlook Naughty Dog's brilliance at creating realistic, believable dialogue. Using its skill in service of The Last of Us's somber tale, the studio created another high mark for interactive storytelling. As Joel and Ellie's relationship grows, we come to know them as friends, giving each fight to save their lives real weight.
I never claimed that the character had to have the "exact same level of coverage", but Joel doesn't even come close to the GNG, in my opinion. In most of the sources to which you refer, including the one you've quoted and highlighted, the discussion is about the relationship between Joel and Ellie; there is not enough independent coverage on Joel as an individual character to warrant a separate article. As for awards, I should clarify that Troy Baker won 1/3 notable awards for his role as Joel, compared to Ellie/Ashley Johnson's 5/5 (not that awards are too significant a demonstration of notability anyway). – Rhain☔ 14:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A google search demonstrates many sources which puts this well above GNG. Wikipedia really needs to stop its love affair with trying to delete every single character article that isn't in perfect shape, it seriously damages the site and I'm seeing it a tons recently.★Trekker (talk) 04:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@*Treker: Google searches are not the best demonstration of notability. Pretty much every source refers to him, but next to none are really about him. I’ve researched this topic for years (excuse my big head, but I’ve worked on an FA, two FLs, and five GAs in this topic) and there simply isn’t enough information about Joel to maintain a separate article. I’ve not nominated this article because it’s “not perfect”, it’s because (besides some copy-editing), the article is in its best and fullest state: there’s not enough coverage of the character for any more expansion, and in this state, it does not demonstrate notability. And trust me, I’m certainly not interested in targeting every character article—I worked for months trying to convince other editors that List of Red Dead Redemption 2 characters should stay, not to mention my work on this, this, and this—but this character should not have his own article. – Rhain☔ 07:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. This character has received significant coverage as one of the primary characters in a game widely regarded as among the greatest of all time.
Condense massive list for page readability. ——Serial# 15:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It's been six years since Ellie and Joel adventured across a post-apocalyptic America in the hugely successful game The Last Of Us.
"It wasn't just another game about zombies, it's about humans and people - and ultimately the relationship at its core between Joel and Ellie.
She's still burned from how Naughty Dog stayed vague about Joel and Ellie's relationship before the release of the original game, and what the characters were on the road to achieve.
Unlike the first The Last of Us, which focused primarily on Joel’s journey as a father who lost his daughter and then formed an unlikely bond with the teenage Ellie, The Last of Us Part 2 predominantly focuses on Ellie’s perspective. Now she is the one making hard choices, the one to whom the player needs to be able to relate. I asked Gross if the team had any concerns about this game focusing less on Joel and more on Ellie.
As players who have completed the first The Last of Us know, the game concludes with Joel telling a lie to Ellie. It’s a lie that forces the player, and perhaps also Joel, to question whether the violence that just transpired was necessary or right. It makes sense, then, that guilt hangs over every moment of The Last of Us Part 2. It’s baked into the combat design, as Ellie decides moment to moment whether to hide or to engage in combat. But, in the grand scheme, there is no choice for Ellie. She’s pulled into a larger-than-life conflict simply because of who she is, a scrappy queer teen who just so happens to be immune to the virus that has destroyed society.
This summer, you can dive back into another world that's been brought to its knees by a pandemic: a post-apocalyptic vision of the United States following the rise of a mutated strain of the Cordyceps fungus. While the first game introduced rugged survivor Joel, who came into contact with a scrappy young woman named Ellie, the sequel is set five years after the events of the first game.
Joel and Ellie have moved to Wyoming, and Ellie has grown into a wiser teenager who isn't afraid to fight for her survival. When she comes into contact with a mysterious Christian cult, she must take arms to protect the ones she loves -- and the way of life she's come to know.
The Last of Us 2 has big shoes to fill. Not only was its predecessor critically acclaimed, but fans became emotionally invested in the fate of protagonists Ellie and Joel - a testament to developer Naughty Dog's emotive storytelling.
Perhaps our favorite improvement is to the upgrade system. Where The Last of Us saw Joel collecting supplements to improve specific abilities, The Last of Us 2 offers different skill branches, allowing you to use supplements to upgrade specific branches of abilities such as stealth, precision and explosives. You can unlock new branches by finding training manuals.
You can see why people really like the game. The animation is nearly photorealistic. The characters’ eyes are full of life and emotion, with none of the vacancy gamers so often confront. Their eyes give Joel and Ellie, the two characters that the player spends the most time with, a weight and a reality that surpass all other video game characters.
The Last of Us aspires to be an interactive, mixed-company version of “The Road,” in this case the story of the relationship between an older man and a 14-year-old girl as they try to survive in an oppressive and deadly wasteland. Almost throughout, however, it is actually the story of Joel, the older man. This is another video game by men, for men and about men.
Ellie is such an appealing and unusual video game character — an Ellen Page look-alike voiced expertly by the 29-year-old Ashley Johnson — that at one point I found myself rooting for Joel to die so that The Last of Us would become her game, a story about a lost young girl instead of another look inside the plight of her brooding, monosyllabic father figure. To my surprise, the game almost relented.
@Valoem: With all due respect, none of those sources demonstrate significant coverage of the character in question. The first one simply mentions "Joel and Ellie's relationship" without any significant discussion about Joel. The second seems to specifically emphasise why Joel is less important in the second game. The third and fourth simply mention him by name, that's it. The fifth seems to have one useful sentence—"This is another video game by men, for men and about men"—but ultimately (and explicitly) shows why Joel is significantly less notable than Ellie. You're right in saying that these are reliable sources, but they are most certainly not "significant coverage". I'm yet to read anything significant about this character. – Rhain☔ 14:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is an edge case between meeting and failing WP:GNG. I know a sizeable portion of Joel's reception is his relationship with Ellie but I do not think that would constitute the topic being WP:INHERITED. I think the best course of action will be to redirect this back to List of The Last of Us characters and put this back to draft. Subsequently, after the launch of the sequel, given its extensive media coverage already, the topic will more easily be able to satisfy GNG. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 10:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to character list. The sources listed above and in the article do not assert the character's independent notability from the game. The article effectively operates as a coat rack for trivia that is sufficiently covered in the existing parent article, character list, and summary style Development article. Not seeing enough Reception/impact to warrant the split. (not watching, please ((ping))) czar 05:15, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to character list. I have to remind myself that it's important to read the article and check the references instead of measuring them in inches. Much of this article isn't directly about the subject, and already covered elsewhere. The relationship between the characters is really better covered at a character list. Yes, there are arguably two lead characters in the game, but it's really the other one that's become notable. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge the game may well be widely regarded as among the greatest of all time, but notability is not inherited, and this particular character has received insufficient coverage in independent, third-party reliable sources to justify an independent article. Czar's reasoning, as well as the analysis from Rhain, is wholly convincing. ——Serial# 15:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
Joel is the anti-hero protagonist and principal player character of Naughty Dog's The Last of Us (TLOU), a video game about post-apocalyptic America. A tough and rugged individualist, he is a hardened survivor of a pandemic that struck twenty years ago. To survive in this world, he has become a smuggler of medicine and weapons. Surprisingly, Joel's enemies are not so much the infected but his fellow human survivors who fight over scarce resources and territory. Paradoxically, the infected are not as monstrous as the other human survivors, making Joel's story a tale of what it means to be human in an inhuman role. ...
... Joel's character assumes significance for his anti-heroism that is constellated around resisting the commodification of humans. His character destabilizes our notions of love, community, and morality to explore the limits of our humanity in a dystopian world.
Cast as an archetypal, flawed anti-hero obsessed with self-preservation, Joel resonates for many of us who likewise put a high premium on self-interest. He wins the gamer's sympathies because he lives while his loved ones have died. To assuage guilt requires redemptive mortification, as argued by Kenneth Burke. Joel's mortification comes in the form of living the life of a survivor who fights the zombie-like infected yet is a virtual zombie himself—dead within. Thus Joel's character points us to a part of a person's life that may have become desensitized or lifeless due to personal trauma or alienation. ...
Paradoxically, failing humanity is Joel's act of self-redemption. Joel redeems himself by holding on to someone dear to him and abandoning the broader cause of humanity's cure. Thus, Joel's character animates the conflict between ethics and criminality but also the classic tension between self-interest and the common good, reminding us of the constant, "dualist" tendencies in human nature. By saving Ellie's life, Joel is also saving himself. True to his mantra, "No matter what, you keep finding something to fight for," he hangs on to Ellie as his raison d'être after losing all else precious to him. In the end, Joel's defiance of the commodification of Ellie, wanted and prized for her brain, is his ultimate act of heroism and redemption.
In many ways, Joel is a complicated character and his life experiences and circumstances shape who he is. During the opening series with his daughter Sarah, Joel most closely embodies the nurturing version of the New Man and correspondingly, the New Father. While this segment of the game is fairly short, we see Joel as a single father who is closely attached to his daughter. There is an emotional connection between the two that is evident as Sarah lovingly gives Joel the gift of a watch, a gift that he keeps as a memento long after it has stopped working. Reflecting the key Nurturing New Man and New Father characteristics, Joel is sensitive, caring, and emotionally engaged with Sarah, and as a single parent, he is responsible for the home and childcare.
Twenty years later, Joel is a changed man. Unfortunately, the change is regressive as his actions are more symbolic of the Old Man and Old Father. He is gruff. He uses violence to solve his issues, and upon meeting Ellie and hearing the request to escort her, he is very reluctant. The only way that Tess convinces Joel to take the job is by convincing him that Ellie is simply cargo; Joel views Ellie as a means to an economic end; she is just another job. He is also unconcerned with his appearance, which is in direct contrast to what he looked like at the beginning of the game. Other characteristics that tie to the Old Man/Father include Joels strength of body, aggressiveness, strong heterosexuality as evidenced by his relationship with Tess and his emotional distance from others.
However, as the game progresses, the relationship between Joel and Ellie transforms. Eventually, Joel begins to use terms of endearment with Ellie that had been previously reserved for Sarah. For example, at the beginning of the game when he first tucks Sarah in at night and then later when Sarah is dying, he calls Sarah his "baby girl." Further into the game after Ellie has killed David, Joel comes to her aid and calls Ellie "baby girl." He uses the term once more when rescuing Ellie from the hospital. The decision to make such a connection through language was a small, but important, rhetorical device for Naughty Dog, symbolizing that Joel now regards Ellie as his own child. The care that Joel shows is quite emblematic of the New Father, and this care is communicated through his tenderness and loving words. However, Joels character doesn't fit the New Man/Father completely. Since Joel consistently takes away Ellies agency, he partially embodies the Old Man/Father by using force or deception to control Ellie. He also effectively annihilates all presence of a mother by killing Marlene near the end of the game. As well, Joel fails to truly nurture Ellie in ways that help prepare her for life without him. Instead, he unfailingly serves as protector. In many ways, the Joel that appears at the end of the game is a mixture of the Joel at the beginning as New Father and in the middle, as Old Father.
In The Last of Us Joel's masculinity is at stake. The question is not whether Joel is a man, or even whether or not he is manly. Rather, the problem that some players and commentators confront is that Joel acts in a manner that betrays the kinds of heroic masculinity that American society typically valorizes. ...
For the first nine-tenths of the game Joel perfectly embodies the parameters of heroic masculinity. He excels at his chosen occupation and exercises paternalistic control over his (surrogate) family. He is strong and capable of committing violence, breaking laws as readily as he breaks arms. However, one precept of heroic masculinity Joel spectacularly fails to exemplify is the notion that 'real men' are heroes who are willing to sacrifice in order to do the 'right thing.'
...
To accept this or, more radically, to adopt the perspective that Joel is a villain, (discussed here, here and here, among other places,) is melancholic. For players holding onto the notion of heroic masculinity, what Joel does is unacceptable and his offense against heroic masculinity must be witnessed and tried in the court of public opinion. True, gender is not explicitly evoked in Joels condemnation, but its more than naïve to think that Joel's excoriation just coincidentally occurs along the lines of his violation of gender norms.
To describe Joel as an antihero, flawed but redeemable, is to mourn. Yes, at the end Joel takes on stereotypically feminine traits and role. So be it. Heroic masculinity is a construct and Joel's violation of the precepts of heroic masculinity do not make him a villain or a "broken man." They make Joel human — more human than the broken conception of manhood American culture celebrates.
It tells the story of Joel, a white working man and single parent, and his pale, slight, blond daughter, Sarah, with whom he has a close relationship. It is clear that Joel has long, strenuous workdays, and is under duress—he is not well-off and is clearly represented as doing his best despite the odds. ...
While it is immediately clear that Joel is resourceful and jaded enough to address his circumstances pragmatically, he (as the playable character) is clearly traumatized and endangered. His look and manner are consistent with mainstream representations of a "heartland" American male: presumed straight, Caucasian, shortish dark hair and beard, assertive carriage, able-bodied, and wearing a western-style shirt and jeans. He doesn't talk much, and is acerbic when he does.
...
The impossible, imperiled position of whiteness is embodied in Joel, the bedraggled protagonist and primary playable character of The Last of Us. He is self-consciously normal and "everyman" in his manifestation, possessing neither superhuman powers nor the skills of a supersoldier. He is vulnerable, emotionally shut down and compromised, definitively an anti-hero. At some point in the narrative, his young partner, Ellie, takes on the protector/provider role after he is seriously injured.
...
Joel is in many ways a cypher for the so-called American average hardworking man, come to the end of his rope and emptied out of his inherent value in a society that has changed around him. ...
Teetering at the mouth of this gaping emptiness, Joel of The Last of Us demonstrates a similar disorientation, but it comes in the form of a deathward-looking melancholia that is staved off for the purpose of protecting Ellie against a hostile environment.
Joel is the protagonist of The Last Of Us and he is old. His hair is ragged and greasy, flecked with gray; his skin pallid and wrinkled. Joel doesn't kill with the youthful exuberance of a half-tucked Nathan Drake, or the lumbering ultra violence of Marcus Fenix. Joel must stand still or he won't make his shots. Joel needs time to heal himself. Joel must hide and creep. Joel says little but bears the weight of those he has killed, the terrible things he has seen and done.
Decades ago; you imagine a sprightlier Joel. He carries a lighter conscience. Killing comes easy. Joel might have been Nathan Drake or Marcus Fenix in a past life. He might have been Master Chief, a silent killing machine with zero empathy or remorse. He might have been. But now, today, as the PS3 and the Xbox 360 trundles towards its last hurrah, Joel is the last of us, The Last of Them. He is the ragged, reluctant killer. Bone tired of shooting at enemies from cover; world weary — literally he no longer wants to engage with the universe he inhabits. Joel is the last man standing in a shootout we've endured and participated in for an entire generation.
Joel is the last of us.
Joel is a permanent fixture in the ruin of the world we once built; a testament to the technology that transformed our lives. Now it is our tomb. Skyscrapers that once soared effortlessly into a vertical vanishing point lean precariously on one another for support, crumbling beneath the weight of their own history. We are part of that history: a generation of gamers repeating the precise same mechanic, across multiple different games a terrifying amount of times.
In PlayStation Lifestyles favorite character column, well celebrate, you guessed it, our favorite game characters. Personally, The Last of Us' Joel came to mind immediately, though not because I favor him over others. Rather, I hoped to examine what about him resonated most with me. Years after its release, talk of TLoU still dissolves into dissecting Joel as hero, villain, or anti-hero. Many deem him one of the latter two archetypes; no hero would damn humanity to selfishly protect a loved one. But Joel isn't heroic, nor does he try to be. We cant hold him to the standards of Superman. Joels an average joe who, before the apocalypse, appeared struck by financial woes. As such, faced with a similar conundrum under similar circumstances, how many of us would save Ellie? I believe I would.
...
In a just society, no one should have to choose who lives or dies. The nuances are too numerous; plus, fundamentally speaking, its morally inept. However, The Last of Us exists in a time absent morality's governing human behavior. Should Joel be judged amoral, then, villainous? Is he as depraved as the men and women he fights to ensure Ellies survival? It's a matter of perspective. From my perspective, the answers no. Joel preserving Ellies future over that of humanity's does not equal amorality. If anything, it accentuates his humanity. He lost his only child, Sarah, to an insensitive act, carelessness, behavior he witnesses tenfold and with much more intensity for 20 years after civilizations fall. As far as hes concerned, TLoUs version of mankind is undeserving of yet another sacrifice.
Joel's grief over his daughter's death led him down a path of darkness so bleak, that he came out as a completely apathetic person two decades later. This was needed, though, since it served as juxtaposition to the Joel we saw later in the game.
...
There's a lot of debate that has gone on for over six years whether this scene cemented Joel as a villain or not, but theres no question it was incredibly impactful. Although Marlene had given him several chances to leave when she could've killed him, Joel didn't extend the same courtesy to her when the tables turned.
...
Before the winter chapter of The Last of Us, we hadn't seen the tender and loving side of Joel. Hed been caring to an extent, but he hadn't been outright fatherly toward Ellie up until he said these words.
Joel received substantial analysis in a six-paragraph chapter titled "Joel" in the 2017 book 100 Greatest Video Game Characters published by Rowman & Littlefield. A sample quote: "Joel's character assumes significance for his anti-heroism that is constellated around resisting the commodification of humans. His character destabilizes our notions of love, community, and morality to explore the limits of our humanity in a dystopian world. Cast as an archetypal, flawed anti-hero obsessed with self-preservation, Joel resonates for many of us who likewise put a high premium on self-interest. He wins the gamer's sympathies because he lives while his loved ones have died."
Joel received substantial analysis in a chapter titled "(Re)reading Fatherhood: Applying Reader Response Theory to Joel's Father Role in The Last of Us" in the 2019 Palgrave Macmillan book "Masculinities in Play". A sample quote: "In many ways, Joel is a complicated character and his life experiences and circumstances shape who he is. During the opening series with his daughter Sarah, Joel most closely embodies the nurturing version of the New Man and correspondingly, the New Father. ... Reflecting the key Nurturing New Man and New Father characteristics, Joel is sensitive, caring, and emotionally engaged with Sarah, and as a single parent, he is responsible for the home and childcare. Twenty years later, Joel is a changed man. Unfortunately, the change is regressive as his actions are more symbolic of the Old Man and Old Father. He is gruff. He uses violence to solve his issues, and upon meeting Ellie and hearing the request to escort her, he is very reluctant."
Gerald Voorhees, an assistant professor in the Department of Drama and Speech Communication at the University of Waterloo wrote a 2014 article with a section titled "Heroic Masculinity: Selfish Joel" in the First Person Scholar journal. A sample quote: "To accept this or, more radically, to adopt the perspective that Joel is a villain, (discussed here, here and here, among other places,) is melancholic. For players holding onto the notion of heroic masculinity, what Joel does is unacceptable and his offense against heroic masculinity must be witnessed and tried in the court of public opinion. True, gender is not explicitly evoked in Joels condemnation, but its more than naïve to think that Joel's excoriation just coincidentally occurs along the lines of his violation of gender norms."
Soraya Murray wrote a 2019 article in the Digital Games Research Association's Transactions of the Digital Games Research Association journal which provides substantial analysis of Joel. A sample quote: "The impossible, imperiled position of whiteness is embodied in Joel, the bedraggled protagonist and primary playable character of The Last of Us. He is self-consciously normal and "everyman" in his manifestation, possessing neither superhuman powers nor the skills of a supersoldier. He is vulnerable, emotionally shut down and compromised, definitively an anti-hero. At some point in the narrative, his young partner, Ellie, takes on the protector/provider role after he is seriously injured."
Keep due to above editors showing sources. An article does not fall under WP:FANCRUFT if it is notable on it's own merits, which this is. Swordman97talk to me 00:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP Sources found prove this is clearly a notable topic. DreamFocus 02:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SpartazHumbug! 07:00, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cunard, as for the comments of the quality of the article I believe WP:DINC is particularly revelent here. Hitpoint0213 (talk) 07:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Looking at the article, the subject matter is clearly notable judging by the citations. Captain Galaxy (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, it might skirt by on notability, but this content is better served in an overview article rather than standalone. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, too many reliable sources to not be notable. Captain Galaxy (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Came across another reliable source focussing on Joel [1]. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 11:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, Cunard presented plenty of reliable sources which makes the article notable. with his horrible death on sequel, there will be more sources to be produced describing him and his tradegy of the game. 200.104.247.250 (talk) 06:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.