The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete Thomas Allery (school student with no real assertion of notability) and RGSW Organ Recital Series (non notable series of school recitals). No consensus with regards Ian Venables and John Wilderspin, which should probably be the subject of fresh AfDs. WjBscribe 17:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Venables (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Non-notable composer. I am convinced this man created the page himself. Only one person has edited it, and when I nominated it for speedy deletion, an IP address (him again?) removed it, making some changes to take away what was mostly just profuse praise of the subject. Still, he is not notable and as he created the page himself, it qualifies as vanity. Clavecin 20:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because 1. is a non-notable recital series based in a school; 2. is a school-child organist who is non-notable; 3. is an amateur organist who is non-notable. All three pages seem to have been created, and edited only (or overwhelmingly) by the same person who created 'Ian Venables', and the praise and mention of that man's compositions is profuse throughout them.:

RGSW Organ Recital Series (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Thomas Allery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

John Wilderspin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Comment: A survey of the links on a directed UK Google search (to eliminate an eponymous soldier and Wiki mirrors) [1] show only 87 unique ones, which is pretty poor. As against that, he does seem to have some small reputation. Unfortunately, none of the links represent reliable, independent, published sources. Perhaps a backer of this article could find one, but the best I get are trivial mentions along the lines of Venables conducting concert X or musical group performing one of his works.  RGTraynor  20:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most references to Ian Venables have now been removed from the articles. This should prevent them as being vainly. I have left a message on Clavecin talk page, regarding reasons why John Wilderspin's page should not be removed.

Overall, I believe that you are right in earmarking the RGSW Organ Recitals page. As it is not that important, it could possibly be merged with the RGSW page. Would that be possible/ viable? After all, as the article says, it is an important event in the school's calendar 81.158.2.82 20:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this page should remain. Ian Venables is a well known composer in the area. Much of the "vanity' has now been reduced; with hindsight it probably was over the top! Although a list of his compositions has not been added, this takes time; the page is new. It has been stated that only i have edited the article- the article is new, it takes a while for others to come. i will encourage others to edit it. Although I cannot prove it, I am not the subject of this article. Thomas Allery etc. The reason why I linked these articles together, was to make them stronger and more viable. Yes they all mention Venables' work, this is because I thought that this was a relevant point. I think that "John Wilderspin" should definitely remain. He is notable in the area, and the page is sourced from an independent, reliable source. if necessary, all references to the other pages can be removed.

• Keep for a contemporary classical composer to have his recordings played on major channels is notable. There however ought to be reviews as well ,and they should be added.

Delete (actually in this case, merge, as suggested above) for the recital series, which does not warrant its own article.

Uncertain: Allery is a performer not a composer, and i think the inclusion would depend entirely on there being reviews. Notable performers get reviewed. Wildershin is a performer and an organizer. I'd support a keep only if real sources or reviews could be found. DGG 05:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Venables is a notable composer, he has just been signed up with the same poeple the published Edward Elgar's work, is this the feat of a non notable man?

This is a reliable, independent website which reviews Ian Venables' work: [2] Dewarw 18:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And another [3] Dewarw 18:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see, he is a notable composer!

The main source for the John Wilderspin page is an independent reliable page, it explains many of his achievements.

Please note, quotes of reviews were on Ian Venables' page, until they were declared as "self praise" and removed!

Here is a website that reviews both Ian Venables and John Wilderspin! It is about the piece that was mentioned on many of the pages, and was ultimately the reason for them to be listed for deletion! [4] It is from a newspaper company so is reliable and independent.

I hoe that it is being made clear: they are notable people with reviews! It is not difficult to find them, and I am sure that there are many more! if they were to be incorporated into the pages, maybe the pages will become more reliable! Dewarw 18:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The sources on Tom Allery's page are reliable. Although the link to the programme is not independent, it does back a lot of the stuff up. The other source (Zoominfo) is completely independent! He is also a composer (some of his works are listed. More would come, if there was more time for people to edit.

It has been said that John Wilderspin is an "amateur" organist! I would like to let you know that he gets paid to be the organist. Please do not make accusations like that which could easily be wrong! He is notable as he is well known. this is because he is involved in many musical choirs, organisations etc -as the page explains! Comment as I understand it, a professional musician is one who makes his living at it. An amateur may still be paid for occasional gigs. DGG 06:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Comment That is what I am saying, he is hired as "the organist." That is his employment, and therefore his living. Dewarw 16:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• DELETE These are of very local interest. To list all local celebrities of this level would make Wikipedia's database of British composers and organists fairly useless to any enquirer. Composers should be regarded as significant if they have been published by major publishing houses, not vanity publishers as seems to be the case here. Fiddleback 08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Comment Ian Venables HAS been published by major houses (eg. as was said above "he has just been signed up with the same poeple the published Edward Elgar's work, is this the feat of a non notable man?") he is not just local, he has been commented on by Classic FM and other major reviewers. He is a notable composer in the UK (NOT just the local area). Dewarw 19:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I live in the West Midlands and I've never clapped ears on the man or his music. Classic FM and what other major reviewers? And who are these same people that published Elgar? Why can't you name the publisher? Fiddleback 21:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.