The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. — Ocatecir ^T 07:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Holly Shively[edit]

Minor state-level beauty-pageant winner. No other accomplishments, and only hometown news sources announcing that a local girl has won the state pageant. Part of an assembly line of 49 nearly identical "biographies" created by PageantUpdater (talk · contribs), which only vary in the trivial personal details ("She will attempt to become only the third delegate from Delaware to place in the nationally televised pageant") or don't even include 3rd-party references at all. PROD tag added, but removed by User:PageantUpdater with the summary Miss Teen USA state titleholders are not "minor" and she will be competing at Miss Teen USA, a nationally televised show. To which I say: yah, they're minor and being one of 51 contestants on a single TV program is straining for notability -- not to mention if she really were notable, references outside of local papers would be easy enough to find, eh? For the full list, see here: ((Miss Teen USA 2007 delegates)). Calton | Talk 01:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See my comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kari Schull. Calton is clearly ignoring hte references here. ~~He needs to fuck off~~. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 01:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And you need to read this, this, and this. --Calton | Talk 02:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You might wanna watch the language -- I know Wikipedia isn't censored, but telling someone to F off can be considered a threat. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 02:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not a threat, it's simply a childish outburst. no sense in exaggerating its importance. --Calton | Talk 02:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Calton is clearly ignoring hte references here - You're right, that's why I wrote only hometown news sources announcing that a local girl has won the state pageant -- oh, wait, that not "ignoring hte references", is it? --Calton | Talk 02:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Say whatever ~~the bloody hell~~ you want... this article IS REFERENCED with sufficient reliable secondary sources and thus meets WP:BIO. ~~Why don't you and your crusade fuck off? I am pissed off and don't particularly care about the WP:NPA attack policy right now... your reply to me was fucking rude~~. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 02:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - So "Oh, wait, that's not ignoring the references" is rude, whereas tellling someone TWICE to fuck off is not... That does not compute. And please, please stop threatening other editors, for your own good. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 02:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - this article IS REFERENCED with sufficient reliable secondary sources - No, it's referenced with hometown news sources saying, hey, a local girl won this beauty pageant.
  - Why don't you and your crusade fuck off? Why don't you have a read of this and this? --Calton | Talk 02:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Somebody report this PageantUpdater already, he's being horribly incivil... Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 02:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - She has already apologised to Calton for her poor reaction. Apologies to everyone else as well. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 02:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        My bad. Please do try to hold your tongue, though, next time -- I'm sure that you have good intentions on Wikipedia, you just had a simple human error in judgment. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 02:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep this and the others. Winning a statewide beauty contest is notable. I ask that neither side in this heated debate swear at me because I'm sensitive about such things. Capmango 02:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Miss Teen USA state level winners are pretty notable, and the article has several references. Edison 03:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Miss Teen USA state level winners are pretty notable - Why? There are 51 of them: what makes any of them stand out, other than the ability to walk across a stage wearing a swimsuit, high heels, and a sash? And as for the "several references", they're hometown newspapers and TV stations saying, hey, a local girl won this here beauty pageant.--Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete I'm not convinced to keep any of these articles solely based on winning these pageants, their notability is usually brief and often local. I'm even doubtful of the winner of the national pageant. This isn't to say that there can't be some winners who develop other reasons for notability, but I don't know that I feel Wikipedia needs to try to cover everyone who wins an award just because they get a little notice from it. But if somebody can show me how there's some real lasting notability to the winners, maybe I'll be convinced otherwise. FrozenPurpleCube 04:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I'd like to second the calls for civility here. Attacking other editors is never a good idea, and while it's ok to point out mistakes or errors, or simply to offer advice, profanity should never be employed. FrozenPurpleCube 04:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have already apologies for my outbursts. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 04:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And kudos to you for doing that, it's very important to remain civil on Wikipedia, though it can be hard when you're interested in a subject. FrozenPurpleCube 04:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Well a number of Teen winners have used their experience and exposure at Miss Teen USA to propel them onwards in the entertainment industry. Shelley Hennig recently started acting on Days of Our Lives, Tori Hall appeared on MTV's Road Rules Revenge, Maria Menounos, Rachel Boston and Melissa Lingafelt are others who became notable (to varying degrees) after participating in the pageant. I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you're talking about. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 04:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, unfortunately, no, since from what I understand you're saying, they've found other reasons to be notable, that doesn't demonstrate their notability as a winner. A winner of a state athletic championship might use that to get a scholarship or a pro-career, but that doesn't make all winners of the championship notable. FrozenPurpleCube 04:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I misinterpreted what your were asking. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 06:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per FrozenPurpleCube. I don't buy that a regional beauty pageant winner is notable. I would consider the Entertainment subsection of WP:N to be relevant as it specifically mentions models. This individual does not appear to have a large or cult following, appeared in a major production, nor has she made a unique or innovative contribution. Resolute 05:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment pasting here what I wrote on another afd... ::Comment They are notable because they won a state title... in most cases against tough competition (up to 100 other girls, in some cases)... and in some cases having previously won a local title in order to gain entry to state). The hold their title for a year, making appearances and doing charitable work etc, as a representative of their community and state. Competing in the Miss Teen USA pageant is just a part of why they are notable. It also must be considered that the press coverage of these girls will certainly increase around the time of the pageant (so why not hold off until then?). PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 06:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are notable because they won a state title A meaningless distinction. What makes a "state title" here the slightest bit meaningful?
..in most cases against tough competition - what constitutes "tough competition" (are there obstacle courses involved?) and what is the slightest relevance of the "tough competition" to the actual notability to begin with? State-level spelling bees and 4-H competitions can also be described as "state titles" and "tough competition" -- probably more so than a minor beauty pageant -- but practically no one can credibly argue that the Florida state spelling bee champ deserves an Wikipedia biography for that alone, neither should these contestants.
It also must be considered that the press coverage of these girls will certainly increase around the time of the pageant - Again, not an actual argument, an article of faith aka the ol' crystal ball. Pretty much every garage band and college drinking game that shows up on AFD seems to take a stab at this one. --Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: As contestants in a nationally televised pageant, these are obviously notable--I say "these', as there are several AFDs related to this, and don't feel like typing the same comment over and over again. Jeffpw 06:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a strange new meaning of the word "obviously" I was previously aware of. You mean like, say, all the 51st through 4th-place winners on American Idol, perhaps? --Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - To me, the ultimate point of the notability guidelines is to establish criteria for this question: will any user ever look for an encyclopedia article about this person? I can't imagine someone needing this reference. Grease Bandit 08:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC) Edit: Oops, that reads harsher than I meant it to. I can't imagine someone needing this, but I don't claim to know everything people use WP for. Grease Bandit 08:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Çomment'. Exactly, GB. The Miss Teen USA Pageant is an event that has been televised nationally in the USA for 24 years, that makes the event itself notable. Anyone researching the topic could conceivably need to know the names of the individual contestants. In my opinion, each contestant should have her own entry. The beauty of Wikipedia is that it is online, and we have no concerns about length. Jeffpw 09:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A false or at least misleading argument: Miss Teen USA is not up for deletion, the 51 distinctly minor and otherwise undistinguished participants for this year are. --Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Unnotable participant in an unnotable activity. BTLizard 09:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per FrozenPurpleCube. --Fredrick day 10:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep despite PageantUpdater's jerkishness. A nationally televised event is notable, and so are winners in the event Lurker 10:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, a nationally televised event is often notable, and I think most people would agree that the winner of Miss Teen USA is notable. However, these contestants are only the winners of a state pageant. Not a national one. Resolute 16:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails WP:BIO. Maybe after winning, she'll become something notable -- but until then, she's just a pretty face with little distinction in a very crowded and competitive field. -- Mikeblas 15:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — I think the issue is the person and in this case its referenced. While these people may never change the world, they do meet our established criteria. JodyB_talk 16:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete on the principle that local coverage of local events is not encyclopedic notability, no matter how many home-town newspaper articles there are. I would accept significant coverage in regional papers, or any coverage in national media. (I'm referring to subjects in general, including this one). DGG 00:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know I'm being overly defensive, but it must be noted that regional and national coverage will increase markedly around the time of the pageant (August). I think it would be best to hold these off until after then, but of course that's not my call. PageantUpdater User Talk Review me! 01:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, perhaps you might seek coverage of past pageanters? If they are notable, then there won't be the same problem covering them. Or you might hold off until then before making such articles. FrozenPurpleCube 03:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect all state delegates to a single list article. While obviously these aren't fictional characters, I think looking to WP:FICT is instructive. It suggests merging into a single list article until such time as there is sufficient notability for any particular entry to be spun off into an individual article. For the most part the information about each of these delegates is going to be the same and people interested in one are likely to have some level of interest in all of them. Otto4711 16:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, not notable at all.--Svetovid 22:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I look to WP:BIO here rather than WP:FICT, since these are in fact real people. I think that these individuals most closely fall under the criteria for athletes which is basically interpreted as any player who has ever played in a MLB or NFL or NBA or NHL game or ever raced in a NASCAR race or the Indy 500 or any race in F1, or CART or Indy series, etc. is notable for inclusion. I would say that competing in a national pageant meets the same standard. Therefore, contestants in state and local pageants would not be notable, but the state winners would be notable because they complete in the national pageant. Many of these people also become more notable after the pageants as they move on to acting roles, etc. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 14:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That last sentence is a pure crystal-ball article of faith. IF they become famous, obviously they rate an article, but not before actually become famous. --Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, the sources are there. Everyking 06:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The "sources" -- what few there are -- are simply hometown newspapers and TV stations saying, hey, a local girl won this here beauty pageant. Not much different from hometown papers reviewing the local garage band or new Italian restaurant downtown. --Calton | Talk 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.