The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep as per unanimous consensus and no other calls for deletion beyond the nominator. A non-admin closure. And Adoil Descended (talk) 02:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hereford Cattle Society[edit]

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Not separately notable. See World Hereford Council, which is. We do not even make redirects from every national branch of a society to the main one. DGG ( talk ) 19:05, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - it's the national group and specifically the UK authority on a UK breed —Мандичка^YO 😜 08:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I'm afraid the entire premise of this nomination is incorrect. The Hereford Cattle Society is the original organisation founded with Queen Victoria's patronage. The World Hereford Council, though the international authority, was an offshoot from the Hereford Cattle Society made in 1951. Originally the World Hereford Council (WHC) was based in the Hereford Cattle Society's (HCS) building in Hereford. It was the HCS who first established what specifically a Hereford pedigree was, and them who established Hereford Cattle as the breed it is today. The WHC arose much later, and serves a different agenda. I've updated the article to represent this, and can see that in its original stubby state this was not at all clear. That said, a simple google search from DGG would have made all of this abundantly apparent - a little hasty to nominate, perhaps? Certainly a little hasty in the earlier Speedy Deletion request! KerridgeN (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you have evidence for this, then the article on World Hereford Council should be merged into this. It doesn't seem to make much sense to have both. DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do have evidence, DGG, fear not. Have you re-read the article? This is a matter of quite openly acknowledged fact, and I've cited the evidence as such in my recent edits. If you need to I refer you to The History of Hereford Cattle by James Macdonald (1909), and to the constitution of the World Hereford Council (which is on their website), but quite literally any book on the subject will tell you the same. Also, you still don't seem to grasp quite what the World Hereford Council is; you seem to be thinking of the two organisations as essentially the same, just with one as being a regional division. This is not the case. The HCS is the original cattle organisation that systematically defined, created and propagated the Hereford pedigree - it's focus was obviously on England as it is an English breed. It's notability really is established so far as that's concerned. It continues today as the main archive of the history of the breed, as well as existing as the United Kingdom's national authority on the breed and a highly active and influential cultural and trade organisation. The WHC, though it stemmed originally from the HCS, is a separate (but connected) organisation which, though once based physically in the UK, acts as the international authority on Hereford pedigree, and has members globally. The international authority is, of course, the ultimate authority and has a contemporary relevance and influence in every country, not just the UK. It is a council, not a society, and is the international governing body, if any can be said to exist, which unites every country's pedigree authority, and which steers international practice and sales regulation, not to mention political lobbying in global agriculture. Again, quite clearly notable. The WHC is no more a part of the HCS than it is a part of the breeding society's for any country (the American Hereford Association, for instance). That's like suggesting that NATO should be merged into France. I feel that you may have pre-judged this without a clear understanding of the situation. As I say, the information is there and quite accessible. KerridgeN (talk) 00:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

so you assert. I do not see how a book published in 1909 can show anything about organization started in 1951. And anything published by the society is reliable only for plain facts, not for interpretations of its own history. The article at present is also promotional, for the list of the current members of the council can serve no purpose except their own self-advertising. Instead of trying to defend multiple articles of so very closely related topics, that they be combined into one stronger article. DGG ( talk ) 00:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let me reiterate, the HCS and the WHC are completely separate organisations which exist for different reasons, have different activities, different territory, and an interconnected history. The WHC is currently headquartered in Uruguay, for Pete's sake - how can you then consider it a subsidiary of the English national breed authority!? What exactly is the argument for merging them? Please, re-read both articles (and perhaps even try some research of your own) and then specify what, exactly, your problem is with them. KerridgeN (talk) 00:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I directed you to the book from 1909 for a history of the Hereford Cattle Society and detail of its notability (which is what you asked for when you made this nomination), and then referred you to the World Hereford Council's Constitution for details of that organisation. You snarky DGG, you. KerridgeN (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not agree that the elected representatives currently running the organisation are irrelevant to the article about the organisation (and frankly it is quite sweet that you think cattle farmers might get some great benefit from having their name on wikipedia), but have removed them for you in the spirit of... I don't know, whatever. You still haven't specified what, exactly, your problem with the articles is. What is it? KerridgeN (talk) 01:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

the problem with listing the individual representatives is NOTDIRECTORY. I think it possible that might have a conflict of interest with respect to this topic? (Unless it's a paid conflict of interest, you are not required to declare it.--for details see our Terms of Use, particularly with respect to paid contributions without disclosure and WP:COI.) DGG ( talk ) 03:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, no merge the World Hereford Council is a prominent international trade organisation. the Hereford Cattle Society is a national agricultural organisation that, historically, defined and created Hereford Cattle as a breed in the 1800s. they're separate entities based in different countries, and each is independently notable. dont really see a case for deletion or merging. Heref (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.