The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. This is tending delete on the arguments but there is sufficient argument that gng is met that I think it isnt quite enough to delete. If this is toosoon then that argument should be more apparent in a couple of months if this gets renominated. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Han Willhoft-King[edit]

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Does not meet guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability. Sources in non-major footballing country are not adequate for notability. Subject plays for an English football club, Tottenham Hotspur F.C., but is not in the first-team squad, is not even in the under-21s and is only in the under-18s. He is a long way from club or international debut. Article is "too soon". LenF54 (talk) 16:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and England. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or draftify as WP:TOOSOON, refund if/when he makes it. SportingFlyer T·C 18:29, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - whether or not he “makes it” is irrelevant. He meets GNG with significant coverage in Indonesian media. Also, “The player section of this notability guidance has been superseded by WP:Notability (sports), and is included below for information only as a record of the previous guidance that the Footy project came up with.” We no longer use WP:NFOOTY in terms of footballer notability. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 01:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See the guidance at WP:YOUNGATH. Being a notable youth football player isn't enough for notability - nothing to do where the sources came from. SportingFlyer T·C 22:05, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I’ve replied further below giving my reasoning as to why I think he does, and I’ll leave it at that. If consensus is that he is not notable, I understand. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 23:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Sorry, it’s 2:30am so my brain is not working as usual but I’ve just realised that you said, quote, “Sources in non-major footballing country are not adequate for notability.” Excuse me? How incredibly exclusionary and dismissive of nations with established and growing footballing cultures. It’s a ridiculous comment to make, and just because a nation may not be particularly strong in football, it does not take away from the passion that goes into their support and journalism.

Football is Indonesia’s second sport behind badminton, but it is still a huge sport there, and their first division league gets attendances similar to that of League Two (clearly a very notable league) in England (Liga 1 (IDN), League Two (ENG)). Regardless, Indonesian media cannot be dismissed simply because you don’t think they enjoy football, and most of the sources in the article are fleshed-out, independently researched articles on Willhoft-King. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/reply - if the player appeared regularly in a minor league or in a league in, say, Ireland or Wales, he would not necessarily be regarded as sufficiently notable to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia. The passion of the fans for the sport is irrelevant. He plays for the under-18s only and, as I have suggested, is a long way from making his professional debut. From WP:Notability (sports): "The guidelines on this page are intended to reflect the fact that sports figures are likely to meet Wikipedia's basic standards of inclusion if they have achieved success in a major international competition at the highest level." On this occasion the player has not achieved success yet. LenF54 (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that’s what I’m saying, it doesn’t matter what the player does with his career, so long as he meets the basic standards of inclusion - which Willhoft-King does. There are players who never made a professional appearance in football, but the coverage on their careers is still enough to warrant an article (see Sonny Pike and Carlos Kaiser).

Any player in any league in the world can be notable, whether it’s the Premier League or the Botswana Third Division. If they meet the basic requirements for inclusion, they warrant an article. If we only created articles for players who “have achieved success in a major international competition at the highest level”, then we’d only have articles for World Cup and continental tournament winners. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Draft I find this nomination a little concerning, as Davidlofgren1996 pointed out from the nomination, Sources in non-major footballing country are not adequate for notability. This is utterly ridiculous, sources should not be assessed to where they come from. That is a xenophobic comment, and we have no place for that on wikipedia. As for the article, it's possible this can be assessed to WP:BASIC, but in all actuality unless he plays it's running WP:CRYSTAL. Govvy (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even read the original nomination, I just looked at the article and thought if he never plays professionally, there's not enough here for an article yet per WP:YOUNGATH. Sonny Pike at least had follow up articles written very specifically on him and Carlos Kaiser was a con man. SportingFlyer T·C 22:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 20:38, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify as above. Giant Snowman
Comment - I’ll make one further comment, mostly just for my own understanding of notability on Wikipedia - from my understanding of the notability criteria, I thought that Willhoft-King would meet the requirements.

Firstly, all of the coverage is secondary and independent of the subject, and there is a considerable number of sources provided, in case the coverage in each is not enough. This should be enough for WP:BASIC, no?

Secondly, it is not just a case of “This is Han Willhoft-King, he is of Indonesian and Chinese descent” in each article, though it is a common theme throughout the sources. I’ll review each source in the order they appear in the article, for simplicity’s sake:

The first Sohu.com source is about his mention in The Guardian as Spurs’ “best” player in his age-group.

The indonewstoday source is pretty routine coverage of how HWK is of Indonesian descent, but this is expected as it’s an Indonesian article about him.

The okebola source is brief, but discusses the possibility of HWK receiving a Indonesian passport.

The Guardian source itself does not count towards notability.

The HITC source again covers his coverage in The Guardian, talking about his career prospects.

The LaiTimes coverage is again about his potential naturalisation, this time to China.

The second Sohu.com source is about HWK signing a contract extension, and covers his appearances for Spurs and the England U16 team.

The Indosport article is similar to the indonewstoday source in that it is routine coverage.

The CNN Indonesia source is about his failure to become naturalised to Indonesia, and withdrawal of the U17 team call-up.

I feel the article highlights different moments of his career so far, and I feel that Willhoft-King currently meets GNG, despite not having made a professional appearance in football. Please let me know if I’m missing anything. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is about lasting notability, and while this young athlete has received some coverage, it's because he is of a couple different nationalities and is training at a major club - not necessarily front page stuff. There's not coverage demonstrating that he'll be notable if he doesn't make it. That's exactly why we have WP:TOOSOON and WP:YOUNGATH - it's probable he will be notable at some point, even quite probable, but in my opinion he hasn't received the requisite level of coverage needed to justify an article above and beyond WP:YOUNGATH (which is more written for American sports but I think the general principle still applies here.) SportingFlyer T·C 08:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Per Davidlofgren1996. Young player with ongoing career already with lots of coverage/sources that meet notability imo. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 20:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:49, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Yes, he's a young player with no senior caps yet, but the coverage found is already enough to warrant an article in my opinion. At worst, draftify. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, coverage is significant. We've made our bed that GNG is the end all be all, so we have no option but to keep.--Ortizesp (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GNG isn't the be all end all, though - it's subject to WP:NOT, and we're clearly in a position where WP:YOUNGATH and WP:TOOSOON apply which would keep an article out of mainspace even if GNG is technically met. SportingFlyer T·C 09:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Draftify or delete. Fails SUSTAINED and YOUNGATH. Almost everything about his career is speculative.

JoelleJay (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 06:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment. The question of whether or not to delete seems to have been renewed twice because there is no clear consensus. WP:NOT says Wikipedia is not a democracy, which implies that it is not just a matter of counting votes. Tottenham Hotspur youngsters Will Lankshear and Josh Keeley had their pages deleted (despite sources) so I do not wish to simply withdraw the proposal. Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Sports personalities says “A sportsperson is presumed to be notable if the person has won a significant honor” (without a definition, and other articles seem to suggest making a first-team debut is sufficient) and it is unfortunate that Wikipedia:Notability (sports) does not have criteria specific to association football. Perhaps guidelines need revisiting. LenF54 (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With respect its for the closing admin to assess notability not for proponants in the discussion to try and shape the framework for the close Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:41, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.