The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The arguments for deletion seem to be stronger than those for keeping, and nothing vouching for notability has been presented. The mere existence of something does not automatically warrant inclusion. --Coredesat 04:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forged in Flames[edit]

Forged in Flames (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Book self-published with vanity press AuthorHouse. An unlicensed work of Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan fiction. Article gives no indication that book is notable, and Google produces only 14 unique hits, none of which indicate any notability. amazon.com SalesRank is 2,935,994. -Elmer Clark 07:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Fails Wikipedia:Notability (books).--Dacium 07:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - considered by itself it may not meet the requirements at Wikipedia:Notability (books), however it is verifiable (on Amazon), non-POV, and does not contain original research, also it does not contain any link to any of the several web sites it can be be brought from. It is associated with the notables franchises Buffy and Angel, and to me it is interesting because it is the only unofficial novel related to these series even if it isn't a bestseller. - Paxomen 17:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Paxomen, the fact that something is verifiable is irrelevant, it MUST also be notable. My existence is easily verifiable but I don't get my own wikipedia article. -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 17:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• My understanding is that the core Wikipedia official policies are Verifiability, No Original Research and Neutral Point of View, along with what Wikipedia is not.
• You would struggle to write an article on yourself without breaking these policies - it may not be so easy for someone who lives far away to verify your existence from a trusted web site like Amazon? If you made your own article based on your own memories you would be performing original research (from unverifiable sources), and the act of you (or any of your friends/family) writing the article would make it too biased and entirely unneutral point of view? You would struggle to create the article without either using original research or not using original research but having to rely on unverifiable sources. That's why these are the official policies.
• I can see it does not meet criteria at Wikipedia:Notability (books), but that is not an "official policy", it is only a "guideline" and until several months ago Notability pages were classified as an "essay" that "expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians".
• When an article containing someone's efforts is being stood up for deletion, I do think it is relevant if at least one person talks about whether the article meets criteria laid out in the official policies. - Paxomen 23:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you would support the inclusion of articles on all 2,935,993 books with a higher SalesRank than this one? They're also verifiable by the same method. This kind of problem is the basis for notability requirements, and while they aren't core policy, the existance of SOME kind of notability policy is overwhelmingly supported. I can't imagine any notability critera this book would meet. -Elmer Clark 01:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many other fictional books low in the sales rank will be works of original fiction not related to television series that drew millions of viewers across the world. I agree the novel is still not very notable, but I think it gets just enough notability (by the skin of its teeth) from being the only unofficial published novel relating to hugely notable Buffy/Angel. -- Paxomen 03:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think the intro meant that it's the only one; it's ambiguous and I read it as unlike [some] other... rather than unlike [all] other... -Elmer Clark 04:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I know because I'm a fan of Buffy (and wrote the article), it is the only published Buffy novel not licensed by Fox. -- Paxomen 20:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - no reviews from reliable sources -- Whpq 20:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as the article is now, but Keep if reviews or articles discussing the book can be found in reliable sources — in this context, this would include the official Buffy magazine and any Buffy fansites which are themselves sufficiently notable to have Wikipedia articles. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• delete A listing on Amazon is only valid as a source for the existence of a book. Rank is sort of meaningful, and sometimes there are links to real reviews--not reader reviews--but the bare inclusion is just a listing. DGG 01:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Not massively notable, but a good enough and neutral enough article, and it's status as the unique unofficial novel related to "Buffy" makes it a little bit more special than it otherwise would have been. -- Buffyverse 15:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let us not forget that that statement is unsourced and unverifiable. -Elmer Clark 22:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Forged in Flames" is the only original unofficial Buffy novel found from "Amazon" (although it can also be found on from various other online retailers), "Google" and so on.. It is certainly clear and verifiable through our access to search engines such as those of Google, Amazon.. that this book is the only unofficial Buffy novel that has been published and is presently widely-available. -- Paxomen 23:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's not really a noteworthy claim anyway. Anyone could write and self-publish an unofficial Buffy novel. If anything, being unofficial hurts its claim to notability. -Elmer Clark 01:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theoretically anyone could, but it appears that only one person has, perhaps this was the one person in the world that has had (a) written a Buffy story long enough to be a novel (b) believes it is worthwhile to go on sale, (c) the money to make it happen. Since there is just one, is it really neccessary to delete it? -- Paxomen 13:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Seems like a page worth keeping to me. Article describes book well. If some people have a problem with the way it is published, maybe more could be made of that in the article, flesh out what it means that 'AuthorHouse' published this, e.g. 'means that it could have been self-published..' Anyway, I'd say Buffy related stuff is notable, especially if there is only one unofficial novel people can get. Crazybacon 13:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I can't find any evidence of multiple nontrivial sources that would provide evidence of notability. Those arguing to keep the article are invited to provide links to sources that would help this article pass the notability requirement, but my search didn't turn up anything that I thought would support keeping it. -FisherQueen (Talk) 13:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete no refs, no evidence of notability, generally ludicrous. NBeale 12:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.