The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was nomination withdrawn. Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Falesco[edit]

Falesco (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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• Withdrawn nomination I'm interested to see what Cullen can do this article and if the sources he's found do pan out. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-notable WP:WINERY WP:ADVERT with little to no available reliable resources to expand the article beyond the orphan micro-stub it has been for 3+ years. Previously prodded almost 2 years ago with the same notability concern and while the creator removed the prod, the article is still in the same sorry shape simply because there is no sources to make a worthwhile article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:01, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. This is not notable. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems this can be developed into a reasonable article. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This winery is notable, as shown by the following news references:

• Wines of the year delight the taste buds and don't cost much, Las Vegas Review-Journal, December 25, 2002 "The red wine of the year is Falesco Vitiano Rosso Umbria 2001 from the skilled winecraftsman Ricardo Cotarella who is perhaps one of the greatest winemakers..."

• Wine on Steroids, Wine Enthusiast, May 1, 2006 "Cotarella has made a name for himself with Merlot-based wines such as Cantina Falesco's Merlot Pisano and the cult Lamborghini Campoleone, a Merlot blend."

• Four top list if buying by brand: Falesco, Gallo, Guigal, Santa Rita offer consistent value, Washington Times, October 5, 2005 "Located in Lazio about 50 miles north of Rome Falesco is owned by one of Italy's most accomplished winemakers Riccardo Cotarella"

• Falesco Vitiano 2002, Kansas City Star, October 27, 2004 "Vitiano is a remarkable bottle. It's made not far from Rome, but grown in the neighboring state of Umbria. The winemaker, Ricardo Cottarello, is a legend and a great guy, and while some of his wines are bloody expensive, Vitiano consistently represents one of the best wine values in the world."

• Falesco, "Vitiano," Lazio, 2001, The Washington Times, October 30, 2002 "The 2000 rendition of this stunning value from central Italy was highly touted in these pages last year. The 2001, just showing up on store shelves, tastes just as good, if not better. Run out and buy it. I don't know a better red-wine bargain. Falesco is a 360-acre property straddling the border of the provinces of Umbria and Lazio, about 50 miles north of Rome. Owned by Riccardo Cotarella, who has led the way in revitalizing a region . . ."

To close my argument to keep, here is a book reference by wine critic Robert M. Parker:

• The world's greatest wine estates: a modern perspective, by Robert M. Parker, Simon and Schuster, 2005 "The Cotarellas built a state-of-the-art winery, and their first harvest was in 1991. Going against conventional wisdom, they planted the best clones of Merlot available, and in 1993, their famed Montiano was born, a wine of extraordinary richness, concentration, structure and elegance. Their huge success allowed them to purchase the large Marciliano estate, a hillside vineyard south of Orvieto that has brought another extraordinary baby into the portfolio of Falesco wines: the Marciliano, a 100% Cabernet Sauvignon, a wine of remarkable richness and complexity."

Has Google broken down where the editors who argue for deleting this article live? The winery is notable - improve this article by normal editing. Cullen328 (talk) 03:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Do note that literally tens of thousands of wine reviews are posted on the internet each year and in many cases they are just as notable as restaurant reviews from Yelp. Robert Parker's books include hundreds of separate reviews and not a single one of those hundreds of wineries are notable by mere virtue of being reviewed by Robert Parker. Being reviewed, even by a notable reviewer, doesn't impart notability any more than a notable newspaper reviewing a local hot dog vendor would imparts notability on that hot dog vendor. The key issue here is WP:SIGCOV and casual 2-3 lines mentions in articles or wine reviews/tasting note doesn't pass the WP:GNG requirement of having "sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Now think about this, what type of "normal editing" for encyclopedic content can we really extract from such trivial mentions in the sources provided you above without WP:OR?

• That the non-notable writer at the Las Vegas Review-Journal thinks that "Ricardo Cotarella is perhaps one of the greatest winemakers"? (Great WP:POV for an WP:ADVERT or WP:WINEGUIDE entry but not necessarily useful for an encyclopedia entry.)
• Maybe from the two lines of the 3000+ word Wine Enthusist article we can add that they make Merlot and Merlot-blends?
• We can pull from the couple of lines in the Washington Times article that the location of the winery is about 50 miles north of Rome.
• From the other Washington Times cite we can remind our readers about "The 2000 rendition of this stunning value" (Is this really the kind of WP:ADVERT tidbit that Wikipedia readers comes here looking to find?)
• From the Kansas City time "ref" we can also point our readers not to miss out on this winery because the "Vitiano is a remarkable bottle"( Now what is the point of an encyclopedia article if we don't tell custome..err I mean readers, what great wines they should be drinking!)
• But we would certainly be remiss if we didn't include the Robert Parker tasting note on "a wine of remarkable richness and complexity".

I apologize for the sarcasm but your comment about "Google breaking down" was terribly unfair. I certainly DID looked at these and other online tasting notes/wine reviews but found them lacking in WP:SIGCOV and providing any real, tangible material that would be needed to write an encyclopedic article that didn't come across as a WP:POV saturated WP:ADVERT or WP:WINEGUIDE entry. We actually need something worthwhile to work with and, I'm sorry, but asking us to write an encyclopedic entry with tasting notes about "stunning values" and "remarkable richness and complexity" just doesn't cut it. We need reliable sources that actually provide content and not sales brochure material. Keep in mind that not everything that pops up on Google is useful. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment There is a decent amount of info in the Parker book cited above (in addition to the quote which is a small part of the coverage), enough to verify some non-advert information and I think enough to qualify the source as non-trivial coverage. There is a decent article here from a Master of Wine, about one of the founders, but talking about Falesco and its wines as well. With a MW calling Montian "the most famous red wine of Latium", it leads me to believe there should be coverage around even though it is a minor region. Unfortunately I have next to no books on Italian wine so can't examine offline sources, maybe someone else can. Camw (talk) 06:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Note Large, mostly off topic WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST conversation moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Falesco#Comparison between Cristom and Falesco. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additional sources that I think are reliable and help demonstrate Falesco's notability:

"Riccardo Cotarella is Italy's most sought-after consulting winemaker, a man who has brought modern thinking and technology to dozens of Italian producers, including Feudi di San Gregorio in Campania and Lamborghini Campoleone in Umbria. Worldwide, he has more than 50 winery clients. Yet the wines Cotarella and his brother Renzo (general manager at Marchesi Antinori in Tuscany) take the most pride in are their own, made under the Falesco label from grapes grown in the family's vineyards in the Umbria and Lazio regions of central Italy. If you haven't discovered Falesco, or if you think Italian vino is too tight and/or thin for your taste, give the Cotarellas' bottlings a try."

• The Chronicle’s best budget brands: Falesco, San Francisco Chronicle, August 25, 2005

"Riccardo Cotarella not only makes his winning Falesco wines, he consults with more than 30 other Italian wineries....A little research on Cotarella reveals many, many awards, praise from wine writer Robert Parker Jr. as one of the most influential wine personalities in the world, and descriptions of him as a pioneer in the Italian wine industry. His expertise is in every aspect of the business from growing techniques, to technological innovations, to winemaking to marketing."

• Winemaker is highlight of special dinner, Providence Journal, October 18, 2006

It is up to you, Agne, whether or not to withdraw the nomination. I say, let's keep the article and move on. Cullen328 (talk) 02:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While I'm still highly skeptical on Falesco, I'm starting to think that there maybe enough sources to write an article on Riccardo Cotarella which would include a subsection on Falesco. When you trim out the POV, WP:ADVERT, sales brochure tasting notes from the source listed, the most tangible, meat on the bones material seem to relate to the winemaker rather than the winery. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:48, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've begun expanding the article. More to come. Cullen328 (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.