The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. —Darkwind (talk) 03:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Edward William Cornelius Humphrey[edit]

Edward William Cornelius Humphrey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Members of college boards of trustees are not normally inherently notable. The listed references I find are either unreliable (Ancestry, Findagrave) or represent insignificant mentions (the Newspapers.com articles). I could not access the Levin book; I'll have no problem withdrawing this if that or other sources can be shown to add up to meeting WP:GNG. EricEnfermero (Talk) 14:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Actually, even one of the newspapers.com sources is referring to a relative and not to this subject. EricEnfermero (Talk) 14:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep (Disclosing that I'm the AfC reviewer) His presence on the national committee of Presbyterian General Assembly was reported in several major newspapers of the time, such as the New York Times and The Topeka Daily Capital. While those pieces could be considered trivial, there is also a large amount of discussion found here which gives significant coverage of him in relation to a court case which he presided over. Apologies for letting this through AfC in this state, it is a tough balance between biting new editors and upholding Wikipedia's guild lines. Winner 42 Talk to me! 16:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I can understand the difficulty in striking that balance. I just think that a consistent, guideline-based approach to notability does the most good for the newbie who is learning the ropes. There are sources, but I don't think that presiding over a local court case, graduating from college, being a lawyer, being related to other lawyers, serving on a national church subcommittee or the other sourced events would really get us over the notability bar. EricEnfermero (Talk) 02:45, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Thank you for considering the article. I'll continue to work on documenting Judge Edward William Cornelius Humphrey as a notable person. Confusion will arise, however, because of his relation to others named Judge Humphrey and other Judges named Humphrey who are not related. Judge Alexander Pope Humphrey IS a relative of the article's subject, but as far as I can determine the J. Otis Humphrey mentioned in the [1] headlined court case mentioned by Winner 42 as here is not a relative. Thank you for the other suggestions, and I'll keep working on this.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 18:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • • Judge Alexander Pope Humphrey was the half-brother of Judge Edward William Cornelius Humphrey. Here is what I have found about him so far: User:Mitzi.humphrey/Alexander Pope Humphrey.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Since seeing the article the first time, I was concerned that the lead doesn't say why this person is notable as leads are supposed to do in succinct prose. I'm neutral right now on whether to keep or delete, although I'm not seeing anything really compelling for a keep so far. Having a presence in a notable religious assembly would make this person notable only if this person led it or was a key figure. I don't have access to newspapers.com -- what kind of a judge was he and where did he serve? Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems to have been based in Louisville, Kentucky, but I can't find anything that mentions him significantly enough to even specify the type of court. I don't have access to newspapers.com anymore either, but I was able to see the newspapers.com articles that Winner42 clipped by clicking on one of his links. EricEnfermero (Talk) 07:05, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The article is no longer an orphan. There are now links at Centre College indicating his trusteeship and Harvard as a notable religious leader and judge with a law degree.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 17:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Winner 42. The minutes of the aforementioned general assembly for 1916 also have E W C Humphrey as secretary of some board of directors. In any event, ineligible for deletion because members of a notable body should be redirected to it if they are not notable, not deleted (WP:R). James500 (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sounds like he mostly served on subcommittees as a church elder. I think the discussion is getting a bit muddled because of the number of references, most of which are passing mentions or which concern relatives of this subject. Can you point me toward the BOD secretary reference that we are referring to? Would this redirect to Presbyterian polity? Just trying to understand and learn what I can. We delete articles all the time where people are members of notable bodies like the IEEE, when those memberships themselves don't confer individual notability. I'm just confused at this point. EricEnfermero (Talk) 19:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I checked about the General Assembly in Presbyterian polity. It says, "The general assembly (or general synod) is the highest court of presbyterian polity." He was the only lay member of the General Assembly referred to in the source given and helped to set the agenda. This is not the same as being a member of a subcommittee as a church elder. The meeting was important enough to be recorded in the NY Times because it involved possible changes in religious creed.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 10:46, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can understand the confusion, but NYT is pretty clear that he was once on a committee/subcommittee of the general assembly and not one of the leaders of the general assembly. That's consistent with the fact that there are only passing mentions of his name in independent, reliable sources. EricEnfermero (Talk) 16:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • EricEnfermero, your understanding of the NYT article headlined about "Creed Revision" is not the same as mine. The article was datelined Philadelphia, appearing in regard to a forthcoming meeting in NYC of a select committee which had been drawn from national synods to advise the national Presbyterian General Assembly on the important item of creed revision, a major item on the agenda of the General Assembly. The same select committee had previously met in Washington, D. C. to draft their proposal. This article alone establishes that E.W.C. Humphrey was a notable religious leader, and I will add that fact to the lead as suggested by Stevie is the man! Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 15:21, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Delete (or redirect if applicable) I can't at this point put my finger on anything that makes this person notable enough for inclusion. His participation in activities may have been important in a limited sphere, but that's all I see from the discussion so far. I don't see true leadership. If we listed all members of committees corresponding to national conventions of religions or anything, this encyclopedia wouldn't be so encyclopedic any longer. It would become more of a resume directory. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 09:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• To answer some comments above: I was under the impression that the general assembly of the US Church had its own article, though on closer inspection, I find that it doesn't. The board of directors reference is in this and seems to refer to the Theological Seminary of Kentucky. I don't think "only leaders of a body are notable or listed" is policy. We do have articles on or list all members of certain legislatures and courts. There is such a thing as ecclesiastical law. James500 (talk) 19:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for clarifying. I noticed on the Presbyterian Church USA website that there have been 221 general assemblies, so I'm just wondering how much general assembly service confers notability. Discussions at WP:AFD/PROF have consistently held that college presidents aren't inherently notable, and I'd think that college BOD members would have an even harder time meeting that standard. EricEnfermero (Talk) 22:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• At the same time, it's very unusual to declare a person notable via one thin reference who has served on a non-governmental board. I don't see any meat on these bare bones. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Orphan tag was removed. "This is the current revision of this page, as edited by BattyBot (talk | contribs) at 01:11, 28 May 2015 (General fixes, removed orphan tag using AWB (10999)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version." Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article should be kept. The notability of Judge Edward William Cornelius Humphrey is demonstrated by additions I made today showing that the creed changes brought about at the Presbyterian General Assembly were headline news and that Judge Humphrey was instrumental in shaping the final vote. I uncovered many more articles in Newspapers.com simply by searching for Judge E.W.C. Humphrey rather than by his full name. Thank you to the editors for your patience with this article.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 22:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, largely on the basis being "appointed by the Presbyterian General Assembly to serve on a national committee" does not seem to confer notability (even if it was an article about someone living today with all the available news sources). The biographical info is largely WP:OR from original documents, while the news coverage seems to be about the creed changes, rather than focusing on Edward Humphrey. Sionk (talk) 01:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Please read the news article and its context before commenting.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 12:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Please read all previous discussion, including that before this new discussion before arriving at a consensus.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 15:12, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I have to say that criteria 6 actually makes most presidents of colleges notable. I think the president of Centre College would pass those criteria. However board members do not. Humphrey might merit mention in the article Presybyterian Church USA General Assembly of 1902. That is a topic that might be worth covering. There is nothing about Humphrey that stands out enough to make him notable. He was a lawyer, a college tustee, and a presybyterian elder who was on a General Assembly committee. Unless we have articles on the other 5 members of the committee Humphrey does not merit one.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• The improved article shows that former U.S. President Benjamin Harrison was a member of the creed revision committee up until the time of his death. He is shown in a group photo with Judge Humphrey along with other members of the committee.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but Harrison is famous for being the President of the United States, not for being on a religious committee with Judge Humphrey. Sionk (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Harrison's role in that committee is not even mentioned in our article on him.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section of the Wikipedia article on Harrison refers to him as a "Presbyterian church leader," and his participation on the creed revision committee is mentioned in the press of the time.Mitzi.humphrey (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete It's really hard to see what is supposed to be notable about him. He was a lawyer and an elder in his church; those are both run-of-the-mill. The article calls him "judge" but provides no details about what kind of judge he was, so we can't use that for notability. He served on a committee of the Presbyterian General Assembly, which produced a 1902 creed revision; however, that creed revision does not rate a mention anywhere else at Wikipedia, not even in the article about the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.); presumably it was just one of many adjustments to the creed over the years. The article has a commendable number of sources, considering this was more than 100 years ago; however, the sources that I can see are reporting on the General Assembly, and mention this subject only in passing, thus failing the "substantial coverage" requirement. --MelanieN (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.