The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus but based on some of the comments here, this needs some significant cleanup soon to stay here. Mr.Z-man 05:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Kurt Cobain[edit]

Death of Kurt Cobain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

POV fork of Kurt Cobain. Doc^g 22:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and clean - article needs to be cleaned to maintain balance, of course. I think it is a necessary article, in my own opinion. Scarian^Talk 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and re-merge. That first sentence says everything. --UsaSatsui (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Although I think the evidence strongly supports that he simply committed suicide, I also think that there is enough information specifically about his death to warrant an article on the subject. Although their existence isn't a valid argument for the existence of this article, I nevertheless point out John F. Kennedy assassination and Death of Marilyn Monroe as precedents. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - that's what I was "fishing" [sic] (Sorry, couldn't help myself) for! I just couldn't remember other similiar articles. Thanks for pointing that out. Scarian^Talk 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge the pertinent information into the main article. No reason to feed the conspiracy theorists. Keeper | 76 23:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I'm not familiar with the "the first sentence says everything" reason for deletion. Perhaps the first sentence needs to be changed? However, I agree that this needs to be cleaned up (the "work in progress" tag has been there for awhile). Mandsford (talk) 02:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and merge- The mention is valid; the article is overkill. ---Iconoclast Horizon 02:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iconoclast.horizon (talk • contribs)

• Keep. This is categorically not a POV fork. Cobain's article is already overlong (and still has several missing holes). Editors have made efforts to expand this topic in Cobain's article, but are hamstrung by length restrictions. Additionally, we've had complaints from some that the section is already too long in the article, given their reservations about the topic's notability.

Cobain's death is a subject of significant public curiosity. Since his death, there have been at least five books, two movies (including Gus Van Sant's fictionalized Last Days), and several tv shows covering the subject. The intent of this article isn't to focus on the conspiracy theories - it's to discuss his death in more detail, with the conspiracy theories being an element of that.

This isn't an effort to strip the subject out of Cobain's article to please the people who think it isn't notable or an excuse to give true-believers the chance to work unfettered. It's to cover a notable topic in more depth than we can at present. -- ChrisB (talk) 03:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I 'voted' delete or merge above. I agree with you on the fact his death affected a lot of people and many question it but I really had to think about this one before I chimed in. In the end, I feel it should be merged and the page deleted. These are articles and not places for people to 'discuss' theories (keyword being discuss). There are lot's of places to have those kinds of discussions that can be linked to Cobain's page. His lyrics meant a lot to many people as well but I don't think the lyrics to all his songs should be listed either and all of the subsequent articles written about them. ---Iconoclast.Horizon (talk) 03:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and merge unless problems remedied - This page gives undue weight to a conspiracy theory, with paragraph after paragraph detailing every single claim of this wild accusation and just two short sentences explaining that it's been widely rejected by the rest of the world. Either slash and burn that, or this article must go. FCYTravis (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I further note that the page's creator has twice reverted my attempts at remedying the undue weight issue by condensing the uncritical and unrebutted regurgitation of a fringe conspiracy theory. FCYTravis (talk) 04:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Unrebutted regurgitation"? Did you actually read the article? Nearly every element of the theory has an accompanying challenge, either by news outlets such as Dateline NBC or by other acquaintances of Cobain.

This article shouldn't be judged for its current content. The Work-in-Progress is there for a reason - IT IS NOT A FUNCTIONING ARTICLE. I left Wikipedia for two months, and mistakenly believed that those who wanted this article (as it has been COUNTLESS TIMES requested on Cobain's talk page) would join in to finish it.

The article should be judged for its subject - is Kurt Cobain's death notable enough (and/or controversial enough) to justify an article about it? -- ChrisB (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Comment - Wait a minute... this is being debated because someone thinks it is taking up too much space? Because someone thinks that Kurt Cobain committed suicide and this information is just the "wild accusations" of "conspiracy theorists"? This is not a widely rejected conspiracy but a case where there are a lot of facts that have been ignored. There are a lot of useless pages here... why attack this one? If you did some research you would see that evidence did NOT strongly support that Kurt Cobain committed suicide and there are a lot more people who believe that than you would like to believe. I say, Proofread and reformat... This cannot be merged with the main page because there is too much information that needs to be included. Maybe the page needs a facelift and some condensing but it should not be deleted! Shelly 1979 (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and clean: I don't see this as a POV fork but rather an article more or less on the conspiracy theories surrounding a very famous musician's death, which is a note worth and encyclopedic article in and of itself. As per FisherQueen articles on conspiracy theories surrounding famous people's deaths are worth having. Tagging as needed is obviously a good first step to cleaning this article.Earthdirt (talk) 14:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and edit however appropriate. Even from the perspective of an otsider, the advantages of keeping this separate from the main article seem obvious. DGG (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• DELETE and re-merge back into the Cobain article. Too much conjecture.---Humanharmony2222 (talk) 08:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep.What good is it to have a site, that is deicated to spreading facts and information, when it can be deleted? There is no reason to delete this article. Just because some people have diferent opinions, on the matter, is no reason to delete that opinion. There are MANY things, people may not agree with, in this world but, if we went around deleting opinions, that we have problems with, then what good is it to argue or debate anything? Last time I check, freedom of speech was still a factor, in this country. This article and EVERYTHING on this very site, is a form of freedom of speech. If this article gets silenced, then what else? There are some who believe the holocaust didnt happen. So, are we going to request the WWII page be takend down? Some people dont believe in Jesus Christ, does that mean a page about him, must be deleted too? Where does it end? I request that this page, does NOT fall to the hammer of deletion. Just because we all cant agree, doesnt mean we should start deleting those very opinions, we dont agree with.~~Lance aKa MonkeyBone316 —Preceding unsigned comment added by MonkeyBone316 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The above comment is the first edit of a brand new account. JodyB _talk 03:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment- Ah, that explains the overly-defensive rhetoric. Good notation JodyB.---Iconoclast.Horizon (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - recommend striking. Scarian^Talk 10:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, or rename to "Conspiracy theories about the death of Kurt Cobain" since that's what this article is. --Golbez (talk) 10:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment -I don't see how, I being a first time edit, should make what I say, less then what anyone else has said here. When did giving an opinion and thought about something, become a seniority issue? What I said, is a valid argument, about this very subject. Yeah, myself does believe that Kurt was murdered and I could make a WHOLE list of facts here, to further my belief and argument about that but, I wont because this isn't the place for it, the article where talking about deleting is. I don't agree with people who say Kurt killed himself, that doesn't mean Im going to go to a page that talks against what I believe and ask it to be deleted. I've read the article, I see no reason for it to be deleted. The only reason I see, from some of you here, is because you feel Kurt's death wasn't a murder. Your entitled to believe that, so am I, to my belief and this article has a right to be up and not be deleted. And Im NOT a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe in UFO's, Elvis is dead, Tupak is dead, but based on the years of researching I have conducted, I do NOT believe Kurt committed suicide. This article should remain, if not to be a subjected opinion on what some of you think here. Its freedom of speech and like I said, if this gets deleted, what else? You cant go around and delete or silence, everything you don't like, because you have a subjected opinion of what's being said. You want your right to say, think, and feel what you want, I want that right too.~Lance aKa MonkeyBone316 —Preceding unsigned comment added by MonkeyBone316 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-It doesn't really matter what anyone believes, per say, about the untimely death of Mr. Cobain. Was he murdered by someone else, or by himself? Doesn't matter. The real objective in this discussion is to decide if this article, as written, that is on Wikipedia, is in fact worthy of inclusion, beyond what is already stated at the Kurt Cobain main article. In my opinion, it is not. It is borderline WP:FRINGE, (and I realize that's only a guideline, not a policy). It is, for the most part, unsourced POV, with no real chance or ability to be anything more. Delete per nom. Keeper | 76 19:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, anyone can sign up and choose to edit and comment on an article. I am very disappointed to see any comments about how long someone has been a member because that should not matter. Everyone here was a new member at some point. The debate here is not whether Kurt Cobain was murdered it is whether the article should be deleted because someone decided that it was not necessary. Of course you can look through the Wikipedia guidelines and find reasons that many articles should be deleted but it is a fact that there is too much information here to be included on the Kurt Cobain page. This is no more a conspiracy theory than the Death of Marilyn Monroe or the Kennedy assassination theories which are not up for deletion. And I agree with the comment that Keeper and JodyB attacked. Everyone has a right to speak on this subject. Just because you have been a member longer does not give you the right act superior. Shelly 1979 (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In 2004 two highly respected investigative journalists from Rolling Stone Magazine, Ian Halperin and Max Wallace published, Love & Death: The Murder of Kurt Cobain. The book reached #18 on The New York Times Bestseller list [1] The topic of Cobain's death is a highly relevant topic as there is much controversy surrounding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.167.29 (talk) 16:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The subject of the article seems to meet the criteria for inclusion in the encyclopaedia, it has been covered my multiple reliable, independent sources and so is notable and there will be verifyable information out there to include in the article. There may be current original research and possible POV problems with the articles but these could be remidied and are not a reason for deletion in themselves. The article currently is a bit of a coatrack for conspiricy theroies but there is probably enough 'good' information out there for a reasonable article to be formed. Maybe the page should be merged back to Kurt Cobain but an AfD is not the place for that discussion. [[Guest9999 (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)]][reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.