The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Rename to a more neutral title, and cleanup. Moving to Health Services Union expenses affair. Rename to a more neutral title (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:46, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Craig Thomson affair[edit]

Craig Thomson affair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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Australian silly season WP:COATRACK split of Australian politician Craig Thomson. While subject matter is probably notable enough to merit its own section in Thomson's bio article, this is an attack page, although some editors are attempting to redeem it. I hold out little hope of their success. This should be deleted, although any WP:NPOV content could be merged into the main article on Thomson. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 15:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, because that's precisely not what Wikipedia is for. HiLo48 (talk) 02:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you can't have it both ways. If you think that the article could be used to remove a government, as you say above, then clearly you think it is important, powerful and notable. It would certainly be more notable than any other Wikipedia article ever if it had the power to topple a government! --Pete (talk) 04:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nah. You don't get it. It COULD be used that way. That's precisely why it SHOULD'NT exist. It's not Wikipedia's job. We are observers and editors, not activists. (Well, not here, anyway.) You really have a strange idea of what Wikipedia is about. HiLo48 (talk) 08:17, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the article could be used to bring down a government, then surely the subject is notable and important. I'm not sure as to the mechanics of how one could actually do that, unless it's some superuser coding feature not available to regular editors like me. All I intend doing - in any article I edit - is to use WP:RS and WP:NPOV and all the rest of the wikipolicies. Nothing secret about that. --Pete (talk) 08:31, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's good, but with all due respect, I think you need to work a little more on WP:NPOV, and perhaps begin to also think about WP:UNDUE and WP:CONSENSUS. HiLo48 (talk) 08:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Probably getting off the topic of power-editing a democracy-killing article here, but perhaps we could take this to the article talk page? --Pete (talk) 08:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Grahame (talk) 01:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IP, it's been raised on the article talk page that you may be Craig Thomson himself. Investigation of the IP address you are using (among other factors) makes this plausible. Would you like to rule this out? Although there is always the probability that a subject of a BLP will read his article - and I've seen how much stress that can cause - it does raise problems when a subject attempts to influence what is written about him. --Pete (talk) 22:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And I might be Bob Brown, Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne, and I refuse to rule out any of those possibilities. WTF are you on? HiLo48 (talk) 08:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know Bob Brown and you aren't him. The other two are fictional. All three are ruled out by the many tags you display on your user page, and I believe you on them. But please think through this. Craig Thomson has had death threats made against him, we have people actively saying he's a suicide risk on morning television and he's under a lot of pressure. Maybe you've never been there, but it's a bad place, and regardless of how we regard his behaviour, he needs consideration for that. This IP editor may not be Craig Thomson, but we can't rule it out. As you say. He trusts you. Go hold his hand and tell him Wikipedia ain't such a bad place. --Pete (talk) 12:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so morning television is the source of your wisdom. All is starting to become clearer. HiLo48 (talk) 20:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While I understand your concerns, Pete, I have to advise you against requesting self-outing by another editor, IP or pseudonymous. There are a number of perfectly good reasons for the IP's choice of subject, and so I ask you to WP:AGF. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 21:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. However, we cannot rule out the possibility - we must not rule it out, if as many concerned have noted Thomson is in a difficult and awkward situation. Two points to note here. If it is not Thomson himself, then it is someone who is trying to promote the same line - there are many such folk about in the blogosphere, and they have no evidence to support their line. It is like the Kennedy assassination, where there are any number of people claiming all sorts of things on the line that it could have happened that way. Second point is that the IP has not stated definitively that he is not Thomson. I am not Craig Thomson - I can say that without beating about the bush or identifying myself. I could be any one of the remaining seven billion people on the planet. As indeed I am. --Pete (talk) 23:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speculation as to any editor's "real life identity" is forbidden on Wikipedia - and your speculation seems to fall into that category. This discussion is neiter the time nor place to do as you are doing. Collect (talk) 23:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It may be forbidden, but it is commonplace when a subject, or one closely aligned with the subject's point of view edits a BLP. It is a difficult situation, and one that needs to be handled sensitively. The Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) incident a couple of months back illustrates what can go wrong. I am grateful for your experienced eyes and assistance on this. --Pete (talk) 00:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Second point is that the IP has not stated definitively that he is not Thomson" - I draw your attention to the words immediately below, posted about 20 hours before your comment: "false and ridiculous accusation regarding my identity". That seems pretty definitive to me. Even supposing for the sake of argument that only 5% of Australians accept Thomson's version of events, that makes over a million people; the fact that 121.216.230.139 is among that number seems like extremely slender evidence upon which to base a repeated allegation of bad-faith editing. Please AGF and give it a rest. --GenericBob (talk) 01:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question: (first asked on Collect's talk page and asked again here) if an editor has admitted on a blog or similar that he or she is editing this article, and by doing so, that editor can easily be traced back to the membership of a political party with a vested interest in editing this article, is it appropriate to mention this on Wikipedia in AIN or in AfD to point to a clear conflict of interest? Would you agree or disagree that the editor has outed him or her self? Before I possibly running afoul of a policy, I thought I'd better ask someone before saying anything more about this issue. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 02:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like stalking to me. If you are talking about me, I haven't been a member of any political organisation this century. --Pete (talk) 02:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, 121, that would be a violation of policy. See WP:OUTING, which specifies that even if a person has declared their identity off-wiki, we cannot bring that information on wiki. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, however: If .... personally identifying material is important to the COI discussion, then it should be emailed privately to an administrator or arbitrator [....] Then I'll do that. Can someone please point me where to email the details with regards to this AfD matter - and the matter over at AIN - for admins to examine off Wikipedia? AFAIC, this involves a serious COI issue involving editing by a member of extreme right wing racist hate party known for dirty tricks. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 03:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I saw the comment, GB. As I said, oddly-worded denials. My point about the small number accepting Thomson's story is that it makes it a fringe view, for NPOV purposes, and makes defending the view an awkward and frustrating matter for anybody holding it. I note that elsewhere the IP editor has ruled out accepting any media outlets owned by Fairfax or Murdoch as reliable sources, which would wipe out a lot of Wikipedia's Australian coverage if we accepted his advice - I don't think there would be a metropolitan daily remaining we would be able to use as a source! While we can and should respect every editor, we are not required to accept every opinion. I'll give this a rest now, unless something new comes up. I was keen that editors be aware of the possibility, given Thomson's unhappy presence at the focus of wide media and community attention. --Pete (talk) 02:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you really should give it a rest now. All this insane speculation about editors' real identities, especially Pete/Skyring's obsession over our IP editor actually being Craig Thomson, is completely out of place. The IP editor and I have very similar views. At least one of us is not Craig Thomson. There is no point to this line of discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 03:25, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Pete, you seem to be implying that the IP has been leaving loopholes in his/her denial, but I don't see it. The words "false accusation regarding my identity" don't seem to leave any wiggle room. If you believe they're lying and you have evidence to support it, send it to an admin or an arbitrator. Otherwise, you should never have made these insinuations in the first place, and you might consider striking them. --GenericBob (talk) 04:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the original comment from another editor, it looks very broadly worded. I'm not pushing this, beyond asking that he be extended latitude and consideration. Besides, he's a new editor, and we don't bite the newbies. --Pete (talk) 04:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IP doesn't seem like a newbie to me - he/she has a great knowledge of wiki-terminology, admin hierarchy, policy, diffs, edit history, contribs, block logs... Strikes me as a seasoned Wikipedian, actually. No problem with that of course, but I don't think any newbies are in danger of getting bitten here.Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks (?I think?) Yeti Hunter, but I have read a lot lately and I'm learning the jargon quickly out of necessity. Still I am nowhere seasoned enough to know where to email the information that I discussed above. Could you please provide a pointer on where to send it? 121.216.230.139 (talk) 05:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Probably WP:WQA, but I wouldn't advise doing so in this case - I suggest cooler heads on both sides. Yeti Hunter (talk) 11:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We can and do have articles describing poor behaviour by living people who have not been found guilty by a court of law. Athlete Ben Johnson of Canada sprints into my mind. Reliable sources are what we use to support allegations untested in court. Media outlets regularly publish allegations against named individuals, as do we. I did see your response mentioned above, and found it oddly worded - no actual denial, but a claim of "no political affiliation", which describes Craig Thomson's status exactly now that he has left the ALP. Under our NPOV policy, we do not support fringe viewpoints such as a flat earth or moon landing hoaxes with the same weight as more mainstream views. As noted, public support for the Thomson's view of events lies at 5-10%. --Pete (talk) 02:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
John Profumo and Profumo Affair were created long after the latter happened, and thus with the wisdom and perspective of history. Because of its currency it has been impossible to keep editors with obvious POV intentions (such as members of the major opposition party) away from the article under discussion here. It has been used primarily as a political tool, and those of use working hard to prevent that really do have better things to do. HiLo48 (talk) 02:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then cut it to a neutral stub and fully protect it. For those of you outside Australia, this thing is called the "Craig Thomson affair" in Australia. That's it's common name here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have my doubts about the court cases. If, for some inexplicable reason, the balance of power suddenly changed in Australian federal politics such that Thomson's vote was no longer of any importance or, heaven forbid, he died, or something like that, the heat would completely disappear from this. Most if not all legal threats would disappear. If all we had was allegations of unacceptable behaviour by a union official who wasn't also a major political figure, there wouldn't be an article. Nobody outside that union and the police would care. The ONLY reason this article exists is because Her Majesty's Opposition smells blood, and that's a very dangerous reason. HiLo48 (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And quite wrong. The political impact of the affair is significant, but what is driving public discussion, as opposed to the Parliamentary Press Gallary hanging over the railings every Question Time, is the misuse of union fees. My son, as a kitchen hand in Calvary Hospital, exemplifies the membership of the HSU. He and thousands of others in similar jobs depend on their union to maintain or improve their dismal conditions and low pay. When they learn that the money they earn from stacking dirty plates in a dishwasher or hosing out bedpans or whatever is being spent on prostitutes, they question the purpose of their union membership. Forget what may or may not happen in the Reps, what is happening is that these workers are leaving the Health Services Union in their thousands. Get out and about and listen to people. The reason the article is here is because it describes an important social matter, and that has its own existence, regardless of what is said here or in Parliament. --Pete (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely put, Skyring. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To both of you, that's rubbish. Without the hung parliament problem, we would not have an article. To claim otherwise is just silly HiLo48 (talk) 00:27, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And without the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand... Don't call people's contributions rubbish and silly. It's rude. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll repeat it if you like. Those contributions are silly rubbish, Anthonyhcole's in particular. It's just barracking. HiLo48 (talk) 08:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point actually. It's important that the edit history not contain defamatory material. Recreate current article at new title, delete old one entirely. Possibly immediately re-create a redirect at this title as a plausible search term?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A political party lusting for power - what will we have next! Gillard shares the same genes on this. In fact she became Prime Minister by toppling the existing head of government without the bother of having an election. Nevertheless, the affair involves more than just Thomson and the parliamentary situation is important. Perhaps if we're going to merge the article, it should be merged with Gillard Government, where there is already a longer and more comprehensive mention than at Craig Thomson. --Pete (talk) 02:14, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do you get all your lines from the Sydney shock jocks? The process of change of party leader and hence PM is a perfectly normal and legal one under the Westminster system, despite what the rabid media and the Libs have told you. It's a bit like innocent until proven guilty in court, another concept you seem to find difficult to comprehend. But anyway, this is not about Gillard, but I guess your true colours are showing. HiLo48 (talk) 08:14, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User:HiLo48, please check out ANI - it's like a SMPTE test card. Heh. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 09:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
and neatly here: WP:Recentism → writing or editing without a long-term, historical view, thereby inflating the importance of a topic that has received recent public attention and possibly resulting in:
- Cablehorn (talk) 06:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Except that it's not all about CT. It involves several individuals, a union, a government department, and the government itself, with support acts from the media and the opposition. To merge to any one of those entities alone would be inappropriate, yet I reckon we have consensus that it is indeed notable. Its own article is the only NPOV place for it. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So what's your proposal for a new name for the article? HiLo48 (talk) 05:57, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I and several others above suggested Health Services Union expenses affair, although of course this could be subject to discussion. As a corollary, I worry about merging this article for one main reason: I foresee endless problems in relation to WP:UNDUE if all this is included in Craig Thomson (politician) (or worse, Gillard Government). A neutral, probably protected article about the entire HSU problem (of which Thomson is only a part) seems to me preferable. Frickeg (talk) 06:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. I agree with all of that. I guess the emphasis so far on Craig Thomson has been one of the things worrying me about all of this. HiLo48 (talk) 06:49, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more concerned about attempts to whitewash Thomson by partisan editors. Given the wide media coverage, the few lines at Craig Thomson are quite inadequate. The Gillard Government article has a better coverage! --Pete (talk) 07:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I genuinely don't believe that anyone here is trying to whitewash Thomson. I for one am primarily concerned that he should be tried in a proper legal setting, rather than by the media, opposition parties, and you. HiLo48 (talk) 08:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We report on poor behaviour that has not seen the inside of a courtroom, such as drug cheating by athletes. The Fair Work Australia report is a valid source. Every major media outlet in Australia is using it, what makes Wikipedia any different - we're just a website, after all. On the matter of whitewashing, I note that the Craig Thomson article lost more than a third of its content over the past month, and all of that was coverage of the HSU business. The diff above commences from before I made any edits and finishes with the most recent edit, so that's all material sourced from the regular editors now vanished. How come? --Pete (talk) 08:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Missed the point again. One of the three bodies I alleged was playing the out-of-courtroom judge and jury role IS the media. Then you used the fact that the media is covering it as a reason why Wikipedia and you should. Oh dear. I truly believe that you quite often just don't get it. HiLo48 (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why not accept that other people have different opinions? Such as the Prime Minister, who forced Thomson out of the ALP and told journalists that "a line had been crossed." She's not judge and jury, and the ALP party room is no court, but still she acted publicly and Thomson is out in the cold, shunned by his caucus comrades. --Pete (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue she did that BECAUSE of the trial by media. You must admit that our two major print sources are both actually part of this story, not just objectively reporting on it. Any cursory read of The Australian over a few weeks will tell you that Murdoch hates Labor right now, and Thomson sued Fairfax. They are not great independent sources on this story, and that's yet another reason to take our time and find more impartial sources, probably from further afield. HiLo48 (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's every Australian daily newspaper you've just pitched into the harbour as a reliable source. How much further afield do you want to go, and just where do you think overseas news outlets source their material anyway? Is the left-leaning ABC an acceptable source in your eyes? They are all telling the same story because they are carefully reporting the facts. --Pete (talk) 23:24, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I do reject both the major daily newspaper outlets as reliable, independent sources on THIS matter, and I gave reasons. That you label the ABC as left-leaning actually labels you. My solution, as ever on this matter, is to slow down. Wait. Wikipedia is NOT a breaking news outlet, nor a scandal-mongering tabloid. We can afford to wait for a more objective coverage after some time. Probably at least months, maybe best left until after the next election, for obvious reasons. We must take care care that we don't become part of the story too. HiLo48 (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I prefer the ABC to any commercial channel, especially for news and current affairs. I find myself in agreement with their corporate line on most issues. But why are you aiming your firepower on this article, exactly? The Gillard Government article has a good coverage of the affair, why not go look at that. They use 'gasp!' both The Australian and The Sydney Morning Herald as reliable sources! We use the media as reliable sources for other issues, for example the Rudd and Gillard leadership tussles. Why not just accept that the WP:RS policy is a good one? It works. --Pete (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You ask, why not? I ask, can't you read?!!!!!!!!!! First, I gave reasons, second, I pointed out that I had given reasons. Third, you ask why? Stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 01:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is your twenty-fourth contribution to this discussion. Stop badgering other editors. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:07, 20 June 2012 (UTC) More over, you made exactly the same suggestion as in the post above in your opinion that the article should be kept. By repeating yourself to such an extent, after the posts of contributors that disagree with you, you are damaging this discussion by badgering. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:12, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. This is actually the first time I've asked these questions, and I think that all participants will be interested in any answers supplied. Feel free to contribute. --Pete (talk) 01:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just address your misrepresentation, there? This isn't going to bring down the government. It might. That's because the Gillard Government is in a minority and if Thomson is forced to resign, a by-election would change the balance by two votes, and Gillard only has a margin of one.[1]. That's what makes it notable, not because of Thomson per se, but because of the impact, and of the wider HSU scandal. Those aren't my opinions in the quotes there. That's Prime Minister Gillard talking, and journalist/historian Paul Kelly who has four decades service in the Canberra press gallery. Have you actually read any of the sources? --Pete (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What you're describing would make this article a textbook case of WP:COATRACK: if Craig Thomson isn't notable per se, then the scandal and its impact should be covered in HSU scandal or somewhere in Gillard Government. --Carnildo (talk) 23:17, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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