The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) — Mhawk10 (talk) 22:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cities and towns during the Russo-Ukrainian War[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This appears to be a list of locations in Ukraine labeled by who currently controls them in the ongoing invasion. This fails WP:NOTNEWS. Wikipedia is not a live news ticker. During active hostilities, any information about the status of these locations will be contradictory, unreliable and likely to change by the day. After the conflict, any changes in territorial control will be better described in a prose article and by way of a map. Besides, many entries are unsourced (WP:V), and what sources are cited are often several days old. Sandstein 13:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Sandstein 13:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Sandstein 13:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It is being used to support Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map. BilledMammal (talk) 13:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, per below. BilledMammal (talk) 00:26, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:00, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 14:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as we have never been at war with Eurasia, only ever with Eastasia. This is effectively just a list of towns, etc, in Ukraine, and as such duplicate material. SN54129 14:12, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep as right now, it been covered at the site's current events page for few days straight, as mean it's clearly real, as well any pages related to both the Russo-Ukrainian War and its invasion, being taken place. Chad The Goatman (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:IAR. This article houses the sources for Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map. The template helps us in making map pictures for war articles following the procedure depicted in the figure below. So deleting this article will just disrupt the making of war maps. Tradedia^talk 16:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Figure
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Strong keep: While initially neutral, I changed my mind after seeing the nominator also intends to delete the module as well. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 03:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep This article is required to support Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map (which is in turn used to draw summary maps used in articles), just as with Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and Template:Syrian Civil War detailed map. @Sandstein: are you suggesting we delete the map, or that the map be unreferenced? What is your solution here? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 19:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tartan357, yes, as explained below, the map has the same problems as this list and should also be deleted. Sandstein 10:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep Per reasons from Tartan357 and Tradedia. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As per above. Showing the status of battle and whatnot. Redoct87 (talk) 22:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The case that this article is required to source the war map which has obvious benefit to readers, is quite convincing. Davey2116 (talk) 00:20, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep This page is obviously used to supplement the war map and satisfy inline citation guidelines. I'd say WP:SNOW might be in order here. Firestar464 (talk) 02:07, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As per above. --Panam2014 (talk) 03:35, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom, WP:NOTNEWS. Mztourist (talk) 04:06, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per IAR, but we should probably formalize the war-map system a bit with some tracking categories and essays. We kinda have cats for templates and essays, but we don't have a category for source-list articles like this. --Artoria 2e5 🌉 06:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete per nom and NOTNEWS. Wikipedia is not for the day-to-day flow of a war. Wasn't done for the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan or any other ~~recent~~ conflict, and there's no reason to start here. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:04, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What do you suggest be done about the map? If you're advocating eliminating all maps related to the invasion while it's ongoing, that's fine, but I want to be sure what we're talking about is clear. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:21, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The map has the same problems as the list: it is a current news ticker in a graphical format, which Wikipedia is not for (WP:NOT). The list and its history show that they are not remotely updated and sourced well enough to be a reliable representation of the situation on the ground, which means that we are doing a disservice to our readers by providing them with unverifiable and/or outdated information. A map like this is something that news websites do much better than we can hope to do. Sandstein 10:01, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's still new, we should give editors a chance to improve it. The Syria map became a gold standard of sorts on the internet; maps by news outlets are only approximations, whereas ours are based entirely on the control of individual cities. Take a look at Wikipedia:Top 10 reasons why copying from maps is strictly prohibited on the Wikipedia Syria war map. I have great respect for Tradedia and the other Wikipedians who spent a great deal of time creating a well-oiled system for detailed, verifiable war maps. In any case, it doesn't make sense to delete the references page before the map itself has even been nominated for deletion. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 10:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, there IS a map for the war in Afghanistan. I'd recommend you all to read Elli's comment below. Firestar464 (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We actually have modules for both the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. We also have some other modules on the ongoing wars in Ethiopia, the Central African Republic, Syria, Myanmar, Mali, Kivu, Mozambique, Yemen, and many others. For a more local alternative see the detailed map for the War in the Donbass. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 03:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Yes, of course the information in the list will quickly change and may not be fully reliable. However, one can say the same about any page about current events. As far as the list or the page is sourced, and the events are notable (as they certainly are), such list has every right to exist. My very best wishes (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep this is a rehashing of the numerous discussions that have been had over the Syrian map. Yes, this is not exactly a usual article, but it clearly has a useful function for the encyclopedia, is not harmful in any way, and does comply with our policy on verifiability. WP:NOTNEWS, if you read it, does not say we cannot have something like this. It isn't original reporting (it's all sourced to other reports), just a news report (we're not making an article for every attack, and a war isn't meaningfully routine; this is an appropriate way to handle information that changes), who's who (obviously), or celebrity gossip. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:57, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep definitely a good summary/overview of the current state. Can be revisited once this war is over. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep Definitely a good tool for further edits on the Map Template and a good guide for the current situation of events. Essential encyclopedic value. Must be kept. Mr.User200 (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article support the map and is needed. Thingofme (talk) 04:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep This article is vital for coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. WP:SNOW might apply said as said above. ArsenalGhanaPartey (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Wikipedia's coverage of the Syrian Civil War works exactly the same way, I don't see why we should change it. It's a pretty neat system -- Abbasi786786 (talk) 21:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep WP:NOTNEWS does not say that pages cannot be updated as events occur. It says that wikipedia is not for original reporting or reporting on insignificent events. It is likely, to me, that this event will remain significent in the future. This page is reporting information from other sources in a useful way. No comparable page on the internet exists right now. Finally, while I understand that significance is subjective and not a criteria, this article plays a VITAL role that no other website is acomplishing. To be able to see the timeline of events and news links without information about celebrety tweets or repeated clutter like CNN and every other news source is doing is CRUCIAL for humankind. - SewerSocalist (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article is used to support Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map. Until there is consensus that either the Ukraine combat map or combat maps in general are inappropriate, this article should stay. If the nominator opposes Wikipedia having live combat maps, then this should be resolved with an RFC. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete soapbox. Beshogur (talk) 09:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How so? Firestar464 (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and certainly NOT a progress tracker of a war, disaster, election, game, etc. Additionally, the title is in bad English ("a town during a war", what the hell is this about?) — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now. It's certainly useful, and can be sourced. Bearian (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article is used to support the Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map. Nguyen QuocTrung (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep as per Elli. Phiarc (talk) 21:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: The article Cities and towns during the Russo-Ukrainian War has been moved to Control of cities during the Russo-Ukrainian War on 10:02, 5 March 2022 UTC, per unanimous consensus at Talk:Cities and towns during the Russo-Ukrainian War#Requested move 26 February 2022. The rationale given were Current title is not specific enough and does not provide context for which cities and towns will be listed & ...is more precise than the current title. Thanks! ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 11:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Elli. An uncontested Ukrainian city does not need a citation to demonstrate that it belongs to Ukraine, as most reports simply won't write about untouched cities. The article plays a useful statistical and encyclopedic role, as Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map suggests. Pilaz (talk) 00:29, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- This is a harmless list, providing some detail in English of an emerging and worrying situation. When we know the outcome of the war, there will probably be a case for purging the list of uncontested places, if there are any. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. When an article has to be updated day by day, even hour by hour, it's NEWS. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Encyclopedic information. WP:NOTPAPER. The disputable cases mostly seem to be sourced. This article supports Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map, as in the case of several other recent armed conflicts for which en.Wikipedia has provided encyclopedic coverage, which have similar module-based relations to map files. Boud (talk) 23:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Certainly, this article has news value, in that it describes a rapid-changing situation, and that it is up to date or nearly so. However, that is independent of the question whether the article has encyclopedic value. Imagine if the situation settles, would the article still prove useful to readers looking for encyclopedic information? This is debatable, but I believe the answer would be yes. The argument that news value precludes encyclopedic value is not valid. Though perhaps if consensus decides this article does not belong in mainspace, I would like to see it merged with Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map over deleting it, since the article is used to provide reliable sources for information in the map, and also supports editing activity. --Kakurady (talk) 02:40, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: clear value per above, and it's not too difficult to cite reliable sources for the uncontested cities. Oeoi (talk) 16:11, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above per Elli.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.