The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Fritzpoll (talk) 11:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Hrabalek[edit]

Christian Hrabalek (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Nominated by Bricology with reason: "I'm going to propose this entry for deletion. There are no sources cited, and Hrabalek simply does not meet the standards for WP: Notability. As for "Please refer to Google and other search engines with 'Chris Hrabalek' for verification" -- 705 Google hits (many of them pointing to things like Hrabalek's Facebook and LinkedIn pages) do not count as notability." This is a procedural nomination - my opinion is Neutral. Tevildo (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. This individual and his past and contemporary influences within the automotive industry are important and notable. I oppose deletion of this entry. Previous assumptions were incorrect, Hrabalek does meet the standards for WP and is frequently featured in automotive magazines, books and journals. 19:14, 12 April 2009 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.97.154 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 12 April 2009
• My opinion is Keep- Hrabalek has global significance in the field of cars. Schreyer 18:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Interesting -- the two "keeps" are from the entry's main contributor, and an anon. Not too compelling. Hrabalek's "influences within the automotive industry are important" and he has "global significance"? Rubbish. He writes a column for a small British magazine, he designed and bankrolled the production of a one-off "retro" version of a vintage Lancia sports car, and that's about it. The onus is on the claimant to demonstrate significance, not just to make blank assertions. STILL no footnotes on the entry, but each of his columns listed individually, to pad the entry. Delete. Bricology (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Previous post by 'Bircology' is not accurate. Keep by two separate individuals that share the same IP server- hence two opinions by two separate individuals. The apparently 'small' british magazine Hrabalek writes for is 'The world's leading Italian car magazine' (reference: www.auto-italia.co.uk) with according relevance in the automotive field. It seems that the two 'Delete' proposals - which were posted by one and the same person - were done by someone with little (or no) knowledge of the automotive industry. There are enough references on an international level by various authors and contributors of both books, magazines and journals that demonstrate the significance of Hrabalek and DO make the 'Hrabalek Wikipedia Entry' meet the standards for WP. There seems to be a problem that 'Bricology' has with the 'Hrabalek Wikipedia Entry' on a personal level, which is unprofessional, hence I recommend this user and his user IP to be banned from Wikipedia and this topic to be concluded.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.97.154 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 15th April 2009
• "Two separate opinions by two separate individuals that share the same IP server", eh? Not exactly convincing. And all it takes to prove that my post was accurate is to examine the entry in question. No citations. Full of weasel words. For example, the so-called "world's leading Italian Car Magazine", is actually a British publication with a circulation of just 12,000. There are dozens of Italian car magazines with circulations far larger than that. One magazine that deals with vintage Italian cars, "Ruotoclassiche", has a circulation of over 50,000. The entry is full of such weasel words as "design masters", "icon" and "regarded highly". WP is an encyclopedia, not a public relations site. As for Mr. Hrabalek's relative noteworthyness: the entry supplies exactly two mentions (one at one page, one at two pages) in books, and 8 mentions in magazines. It even lists Hrabalek's University Alumni Association newsletter as a "Reference source"! Pure listcruft. As for banning me and my IP: I suggest you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies. I've been a contributor here for 3 years. You, apparently, aren't even registered. If you expect to have any credibility, sign up, sign in and learn how things work here. Bricology (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Bircology' has had one BLP warning (18:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC) and two warnings regarding Wikipedia's 'personal attacks policy' (November 2008 and February 2009). I fear that this is personal attack number three and appeal for help from an WP administrator. Bricology seems to be on a personal mission which is unprofessional and surely can not reflect the standard, image or quality of Wikipedia. Bircology's accusations in his previous posts are unfounded and speculative. I would like to propose a block for disruption for user 'Bircology' by a WP administrator. Please check previous offences by this individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bricology). Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.97.154 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 15th April 2009
• The unsigned poster (possibly Hrabalek himself, since their IP address resolves to London, where Hrabalek lives, and their use of English suggests that their native tongue is German) STILL does not seem to get it. This isn't about me, and it certainly isn't any kind of "personal attack". I care absolutely nothing about the subject matter of this WP entry. The ONLY reason I ProD-ed it was because it was so non-Wikified that it read like a public relations release. Listcruft (every column Mr. Hrabalek ever wrote for a magazine, listed individually?!), weasel words ("icon", "master", etc.), NO citations to primary sources, claims that are prima facie incredible, such as that Mr. Hrabalek worked for 7 different major car makers over the course of 7 years (with no link to a CV or any other corroboration), and so on. Pure puffery. If Mr. Anonymous, who is so clearly invested in maintaining the hyperbole on Mr. Hrabalek's entry, is interested in contributing to WP, he needs to understand how WP works, and in particular, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons -- especially the section "Creative Professionals". Mr. Hrabalek simply does not meet the requirements spelled out there. And even if he did, the entry lacks the citations to primary sources to demonstrate that notability, but in fact, it lacks both. Again, Mr. Hrabalek's "notability" seems to hinge on the fact that he writes a monthly column for a small magazine, and that he designed and produced a prototype car that was shown at a couple of auto shows. The car was never put into the production it was claimed to be entering. Beyond that, the list of his "accomplishments" are as trivial as having worked with (or for) certain other barely-notable people, and being the "official design consultant" for two small magazines. Not notable. Bricology (talk) 18:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Bircology' is incorrect and continues to make statements without substance that are based on pure speculation. The circulation of a media is not necessarily linked to the quality of said media (e.g. circulation of UK 'SUN' or German 'Bild' Zeitung outnumbers those of the 'FT' in either market- does this pass judgement to the quality of the according paper?). Next, the circulation figures that Bircology previously cited are all incorrect (where are the references for these figures?)- this is with regard to "Auto Italia", "Classic Driver" and also "Ruotoclassiche"; "Ruotoclassiche" is also a classic car related magazine, quite different in content and target group to both "Auto Italia" and "Classic Driver", so one can only assume that Bircology meant the more contemporary targeted 'Quattroruote'. Again proof that Bircology neither does his research well nor that he/she has any profound knowledge of the automotive field. Without having to lower myself to Bircology's level of argumentation, the fact that none of the people he (allegedly) knows within the automotive industry are able to work for seven different car companies in seven years, only suggests that the people he speaks of are not in the position to do so- nothing more and nothing less. As a matter of fact, the contrary is the case in this industry! Professionals (especially in vehicle design) can work at multiple companies sequentially or in parallel- even within a 12-month period. Lastly, the fact that Bircology could not find any information on Benoit Jacob, does NOT imply that Benoit Jacob does not exist (or is unimportant), but rather that Bircology has once again NOT done his research properly. Benoit Jacob is the author of the Renault Fiftie Concept, the Renault Sport Spider and Renault Laguna production cars. Finally it must be said that Anders Warming is the author of the BMW Z4 as well as the BMW Mille Miglia Concept and has contributed significantly on the BMW G.I.N.A. Concept and the BMW X Coupe Concept. All four vehicles created the stylistic basis for the 'Flame Surfacing' automotive form language; arguably the most important automotive design contribution of the decade. So much for 'other barely-notable people'. The bottom line is: Bircology's statements are badly researched, unprofessional, speculative and essentially false! This member should be barred for disruption and his/her account and IP address should be blocked by a WP Administrator- previous offences by this individual speak for themselves and also his bad-language and tone of voice. I sincerely hope a WP Administrator takes notice of this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bricology) .Schreyer 01:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

"The circulation of a media is not necessarily linked to the quality of said media" You're still not getting it. The entry formerly claimed that the magazine in question was "the world's leading Italian car magazine". You're clearly unfamiliar with the WP term "weasel words". Entry claims must be verifiable. How do you propose verifying that "Auto Italia" is "the world's leading Italian car magazine"? You can't. Unverifiable weasel words. "Next, the circulation figures that Bircology previously cited are all incorrect (where are the references for these figures?)" Where? Why, right here on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Lancia-037-development-history-Champion/dp/1845840763 "As a matter of fact, the contrary is the case in this industry! Professionals (especially in vehicle design) can work at multiple companies sequentially or in parallel- even within a 12-month period." The onus is on the claimant to provide verification of claims. Hrabalek claims to have worked at these 7 different companies over the course of 7 years. This should be the easiest thing in the world for you (him) to prove: simply post a link to Mr. Hrabalek's CV. Any problem with doing that? If I claimed to have worked at R-R, Bentley, Aston-Martin, Morgan, Bristol, Jaguar and TVR over the course of 7 years, I'd have to prove it. It's no different for Mr. Hrabalek. Go back and look at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. WP does not allow unverified claims. Back it up or take it off. "the fact that Bircology could not find any information on Benoit Jacob, does NOT imply that Benoit Jacob does not exist (or is unimportant), but rather that Bircology has once again NOT done his research properly." I never claimed that Mr. Jacob "didn't exist". YOU claimed that Mr. Jacob was a "master" (there you go with the weasel words again). I did a simple Google search which turned up nothing specific about Benoit Jacob. I added "Renault" to the search and found exactly 97 hits. Compare that to the relatively unknown Ken Okuyama, who was the lead designer at PininFarina (37,000 hits). Even more so, compare M. Jacob's 97 hits to recognized "masters" of automotive design like Sergio Pininfarina (34,000 hits), Marcello Gandini (58,000 hits) or Giorgetto Giugiaro (110,000 hits). My research is sound, but ultimately it doesn't matter, since I didn't author this WP entry. Apparently you did, but you filled it with hyperbole and left out all of the source material. Again -- the onus is on you to justify what you put in an entry, not on me to disprove it. And as for "bad language" and "tone of voice" -- yet more news to you: WP does not care one bit about such things. What it does care about is credibility, and its credibility as a reliable resource is more harmed than helped by blather such as makes up the majority of Mr. Hrabalek's entry. There's no Niceness Police that's going to come help you, so you might as well either do what's expected of WP contributors, or stop whining about it. Bricology (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.