The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. 69.X and Cool3 make good arguments that this baseball player is notably short. Some people weren't moved, but no attempt was made to refute this claim. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Chris Cates[edit]

Chris Cates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

minor league athletes fail WP:ATHLETE which requires playing at the "fully professional" level. Minor league players with no other notability do not meet this standard. This team is two levels below the majors. Note the caption on his picture. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the minor leagues are "fully professional," and plenty of minor league players have their own pages. All of those players listed as all-stars on Cates's page have their own pages as well. If you want to nominate all of these minor leaguers for deletion, you will have a lot of nominating to do. The caption should be removed but that's beside the point. As the minor leagues are "fully professional," by the listed standard, minor league players should be eligible. Also, that league is three levels below the majors, so I question your knowledge of minor league baseball. 69.253.207.9 (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I would argue that making a minor league All-Star team is considered "notability." I've added a citation mentioning his all-star selection. 69.253.207.9 (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That other minor leaguers have pages is not a valid argument. They may need deleted too. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and why aren't you signing in? I checked and minor leaguers are not considered meeting WP:ATHLETE unless they are otherwise notable, like moving on to the majors. Good, three levels below majors, even less notable. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not "signing in" because, uh, I don't have an account to sign into. Those pages listed all survived an AfD before, and I found a discussion from two years ago where there was some agreement that a minor-league all-star was notable. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS should only apply in cases where there are a handful of bad articles. These are all well-sourced and there are many, many examples of minor league baseball players (particularly high round draft picks) or even college players who have pages. By the definitions in WP:ATHLETE, college basketball players and college football players are not notable. Do you really want to open up that can of worms? 69.253.207.9 (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or merge somewhere. As per my comments at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#Athlete_notability, a quick gsearch is not turning up notability. Lots of passing mentions (I added one of those to the article), but nothing of substance. The highest level he's reached is single-A ball, one of the lower ranks of the minor leagues -- many editors (myself included) do not consider this to be fully professional. There is also no general consensus that minor league all-star appearances without corresponding in-depth coverage automatically confer notability. Naturally, if someone turns up sources that will make this pass WP:GNG, I'll gladly change my mind. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found quite a few notable Google hits, actually, such that when I typed in Chris Cates it suggested Chris Cates Twins, Chris Cates baseball, and Chris Cates Louisville as search options. Quite a few of the hits involved the fact that Cates is the shortest player in pro baseball and was the shortest player in college baseball, but being notable for his stature in addition to his baseball abilities doesn't make him any less notable. 69.253.207.9 (talk) 17:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep Striking my previous !vote because of two of the three sources added by 69.253.207.9, which are actual articles about Cates, rather than passing mentions. I'd still like to see a bit more than these -- feel free to add them. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I just nommed some more of these, all except for some exceptions should be deleted.--Giants27 (t|c|r|s) 17:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While you're at it, nominate most of the individual pages for the players listed in 2008 Major League Baseball Draft that haven't gone past A ball. The number 1 draft pick is surely notable and Pedro Alvarez for the controversy that surrounded his signing, but none of those other players are any more notable than the minor league all-stars nominated for deletion. 69.253.207.9 (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - He's been playing professional ball for three years and has been an All star for the last two. Sorry he didn't make it while he was in rookie ball. There's no question this article deserves to be kept. I wouldn't have written it two days ago if I didn't think so.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 22:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to Minnesota Twins minor league players per standard procedure. Spanneraol (talk) 23:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Insufficient notability to meet guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The Miracle is a minor league team. Minor league players don't qualify under WP:ATHLETE Niteshift36 (talk) 07:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Niteshift36 has stated in several other "Article for deletion" entries that he believes they should be deleted because "The Miracle is not a professional team.". To make a comment like that, he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about, and his opinion has no merit.--Johnny Spasm (talk) 11:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. He may fail the fully-professional requirement of WP:ATHLETE, but I believe that Cates passes the GNG with his other claims to notability. In particular, being the smallest Division 1 baseball player (incidentally, in many sports playing in NCAA Division 1 is considered to satisfy WP:ATHLETE as "the highest amateur level of a sport") and the shortest player in pro baseball. The fact that this is documented with independent news stories (rather than just stats sites) further demonstrates a pass of the GNG. He's been featured in Sports Illustrated [1]. He's been on CSTV [2]. He was interviewed on ESPN First Take [3]. Whether or not he meets WP:ATHLETE he's been featured all over the media; that satisfies the GNG (even if the attention is just because of its height). Cool3 (talk) 04:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.