The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Bio info moved to Rahm Emanuel, this article will be deleted.. Avi 15:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Benjamin M. Emanuel[edit]

Benjamin M. Emanuel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Twice tagged as speedy (not by me), once as attack, once as nonnotable. Moving here for fuller discussion. I'm neutral. NawlinWiki 19:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Update Given the two Keep votes below, this is not an appropriate candidate for speedy deletion. The result of this AFD may still be to delete, but please don't re-add the speedy tag. It will just get removed again. Let's let the discussion play out here. NawlinWiki 23:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update If the slanderous material is dropped as has been done as per the history page

06:21, 11 January 2007 Chick Bowen (stubbify per WP:BLP, used sources that were not reliable)

Then I do not object to using regular AfD instead of speedy delete, if the slanderous material is reverted back in then I will follow wiki-guidelines and call for its Speedy Deletion.--Wowaconia 06:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I tagged it for speedy deletion as non-notable. I did so because the sources given in the article are not about this man. This first is mainly about his son, Rahm. The second is not a reliable source and is highly anti-semitic "He has been the Acting Deputy Chief, for North America, of The Mossad, Israeli Intelligence." and the 3rd mentions Benjamin, but the focus is again on his son, Rahm. As such, he fails WP:BIO, "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person".--Thomas.macmillan 19:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete failing WP:BIO. Budgiekiller 19:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: sufficiently notable. Jonathunder 20:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Sufficiently notable. Wowaconia (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) has some sort of problem with the articles on members of this family, which seem to involve protecting a politician against what he sees as negative facts. he shouldn't be allowed to get his way on this. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Attack page devoted to a non-notable father of a U.S. politician. Relies on unreliable and POV sources and speculation for defamatory allegations, in violation of WP:BLP. Edison 20:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  I fail to see the "attack page" aspect; certain claims are mentioned, attributed, and questioned. That seems to be pretty much what an article should do. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Only noticable for offspring, content should be taken up in their article rather than the creation of new article Arnoutf 21:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• My response is conditional on whether the page is reverted to eliminate the changes made by Chick Bowen on 06:21, 11 January 2007.

If not reverted I vote merge. The one new sentence found in a reliable source by Chick Bowen should be moved to the Rahm Emanuel page where the rest of the reliably sourced info on this page was cut and pasted from.

If reverted SPEEDILY DELETED I have argued and will continue to argue that this page metirts speedy deletion as an attack page against Benjamin M. Emanuel's son Rep. Rahm Emanuel if the claims from blogs it cited are included.

• Comment To clarify any uncertainty about whether the inclusion of the claims made by these blogs would render this article an attack page look at the blogs cited http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/S_284_S/Overthrow%20series/Rahm%20Emanuel.htm

it asserts that “[Rahm] Emanuel is no stranger to political assassination. His father was reputedly part of the Israeli assassin team that murdered Sweden's Count Bernadotte, part of a U.N. team in Palestine in 1948.”--Wowaconia 22:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The other blog mentioned

http://www.iamthewitness.com/Bollyn-Emanuel.html makes similar claims:

• "American congressman Rahm Emanuel, is the son of a terrorist.… Rep. Rahm Emanuel, the Democrat congressman for the 5th District of Illinois in Chicago is the son of an Israeli terrorist. Rahm's father, Benjamin, was a member of the Irgun, the Zionist terrorist organization that coined a new word as they blew up hotels, train stations, and other buildings in Palestine in the 1930s and 40s. …Irgun, the army of his father, is short for Irgun Zvai Leumi, which supposedly means something like "National Military Organization" in Hebrew. As a matter of fact, the Irgun was simply a terrorist Zionist group that operated in Palestine from 1931 to 1948. They killed innocent Palestinians and British soldiers and blew up buildings."

  This source also asserts that the events of 9/11 where caused by this organization they claim Emanuel was part of saying, “The Irgun even has a website with pictures of the buildings they blew up before they demolished the World Trade Center with Thermite and high explosives”

  It should be obvious that these unsubstantiated claims are not up to wikistandards and if they are included this page should be Speedily Deleted as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Biographies_of_living_persons .--Wowaconia 23:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't see the relevance of quoting material that isn't in the article in order to argue against the article itself — unless you're tring to smear it by association. Note also that deletion of anarticle shouldn't be based upon its curent contents (that's a matter for improvement and rewriting). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning the above question of relevance: The material from the blogs isn't in the article anymore because it was removed, in the past I had removed this material citing the same standards that were used to create this current version. I did this on 19:31, 10 January 2007 but in little over an hour they were reverted back in by User:Mel Etitis at 20:38, 10 January 2007. Mel Etitis also took me to task on my user-talk page for "deleting large swathes of text". As I had posted my objections to the article before the edit removing the blogged material was allowed to stand, that is why it is mentioned. As the previous revision by User:Mel Etitis cited the bloggers belief that Benjamin M. Emanuel “participated in the assasination of Swedish diplomat Folke Bernadotte in 1948” I included the above points. I also included quotes from the blog about 9/11 being done by Irgun (of whom the blog claimed that "After 1948 they became part of the new Israeli government") to show that this source was not only unreliable but also anti-Semitic and a promoter of the generally discounted conspiracy theory that it was the Jews who were behind 9/11. I was astonished that it was being argued continually that these are reliable sources and that quoting them in any manner was acceptable according to wiki-standards. As Mel Etitis was an early contributor to the article that included the blog statements (see page history at 10:33, 7 January 2007 and 10:29, 7 January 2007) I was worried that he would simply revert User:Chick Bowen's edits away to restore the blogged material and accuse him as he has me on my talk page of having "some personal or political axe to grind with regard to the articles on this family". (See also his accusation above that I'm "protecting a politician against what he sees as negative facts. he shouldn't be allowed to get his way on this.") These comments were made because I removed the same blogged statement that Benjamin M. Emanuel "was a member of the Irgun, a radical Zionist paramilitary organization" on the page Ari Emanuel that he allowed in his edit of that page on 10:35, 7 January 2007 and his edit on 19:47, 9 January 2007 where he himself inserted onto the Rahm Emanuel page the claim that "Benjamin M. Emanuel, was a member of the Irgun, a radical Zionist paramilitary organization". I find it troubling that he failed to disclose any of this when he posted his response on this page.--Wowaconia 10:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect to Rahm Emanuel. This is an attack page using unreliable sources for a non-notable person. This can be dealt with by a sentence or two in the article for his US politician son. --Dhartung | Talk 00:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete doesn't qualify for any speedy deletion, but ultimately article amounts to a claim of notablity based on subject's notable child and then discussing sometimes contradictory claims by internet sources (of questionable reliability) that subject perform certain actions nearly sixty years ago. First, notability is generally non-transferable. Second, the questionable sources would not constitute multiple independent published works necessary to establish notability under WP:BIO. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danntm (talk • contribs) 05:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • Dang, I go on a thorough analysis only to forget to sign the thing. I have to stop !voting after Midnight. Anyway, although independent notability has not been established for an independent article, Merge and Redirect to his of properly sourced information is an acceptable outcome.-- danntm ^T _C 14:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. I have stubbified it and removed the material that was sourced only to unreliable websites. This AfD can proceed--no need for any more speedy tags. Chick Bowen 06:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've provided another source as well. Chick Bowen 06:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Bowen as long as his edits that removed the slanderous material are not reverted.--Wowaconia 07:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note - there was a posting made about this article to WP:V [Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Can_one_create_an_article_that_centers_around_the_fact_that_blogs_accuse_the_person_of_being_a_murderer.3F]. - Johntex\^talk 08:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect to Rahm Emanuel. Article seems to center around the subject being the father of someone who is themselves borderline notable. No need for a separate article. Johntex\^talk 08:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect per Dhartung. Although there are now reliable source citations for the subject, IMHO they are still too "trivial" as to Benjamin Emmanual to qualify him under WP:BIO, so not independently notable. TheronJ 12:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect per TheronJ and others. Current sources only establish indirect notability via Rahm Emanuel. Crum375 19:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect. I tried to speedy it before, but this seems likea better option now.--Thomas.macmillan 20:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect, if being discussed on the Internet makes one notable all of us should have an article! Seraphimblade 03:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• merge and redirect Family can be reason for being notable, but only in a truly exceptional case, such as a head of state or a similarly exceptionally well known figure. That is not the case here. (None the less it was not a speedy, & this has been the proper place to discuss it).DGG 05:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.