The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn. The issue with verifiability has been resolved; thanks in part to somebody finding proper sources which I could not. (non-admin closure) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:46, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Almohad Expedition to Dukkala[edit]

Almohad Expedition to Dukkala (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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This is material which was removed from another article because it failed verification or/and was based solely on a primary source (the translated "Chronicle of Ibn al-Athir"). And yet here it is, re-created as an independent article by the same person who added it, without addressing any of the issues which I pointed out to them. Delete as lacking sufficient sources to write an encyclopedic article (failing WP:N) and as currently failing WP:V in its current state. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:18, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Ibn al-Athir isn’t a primary source. He’s one of the main historians of the Middle Ages. Mccapra (talk) 22:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  We don't base our articles on Rome and Ancient Greece on the writings of ancient historians. These sources are so old that they are effectively primary sources which require expert interpretation. Same principle here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:23, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I wouldn't describe them as primary sources per se, but I agree that the ancient historians generally vary to unreliability; I mean even amongst the best ancient historians, Herodotus claimed that "Indians have intercourse openly like cattle", while Livy openly writes about known myths as if they were facts for the entirety of book 1. Curbon7 (talk) 01:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Morocco-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 01:10, 21 October (UTC)

• Keep This was an important part of the construction of the empire of Abd al-Mu'min, unifying North Africa. Poorly written and poorly sourced is not a reason to delete, but is a reason to improve. There are currently three "modern" sources cited in the article. Sure it could use a major rewrite, include dates, more context in the overall conflict between Almoravids and Almohads, and more citation to reliable sources; but all of that is fixable. The Wikipedia is a shared endeavour.  --Bejnar (talk) 02:11, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  You have added two citations to single pages in books (I hope these are more than trivial mentions in a single paragraph on the relevant page). I assume that is because you have access to these, and should be able to show us (by directly improving the article) that these sources actually contain which is sufficient to write something encyclopedic. Otherwise, I'm not convinced that cite-bombing the first sentence is really helpful in improving the article. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• They are, respectively, a non-trival single paragraph and a non-trivial two paragraphs. You indicated that there was a problem with verification, and lack of modern sources. The history of medieval North Africa is not my area of expertise, but I will endeavour to search further in the periodical literature for more detailed discussions. Again, I do not believe that adequate pre-searching had been done prior to listing this Afd. Also, this Afd is likely to be premature, as a major treatise on Abd al-Mu'min by Maribel Fierro is due to be published next month (Fierro, Maribel (2021). 'Abd al-Mu'min: Mahdism and Caliphate in the Islamic West. Oneworld Academic (distributed by Simon & Schuster in U.S.). ISBN 978-1-85168-428-1.), which will undoubtedly cover this campaign. Maribel Fierro is Research Professor at the Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas in Madrid. Based on modern sources, I have rewritten the first (now two) paragraph of text. Like I said this is a cooperative effort, go out and read the available sources and rewrite and re-cite what is necessary to improve this article.   --Bejnar (talk) 01:50, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. I agree about the addition of citations to the lead sentence only. The sourced content must be added to the narrative and cited there. In fact, there should never be any citations in the lead because it is meant to summarise the narrative where all citations belong, so this needs attention. No Great Shaker (talk) 07:07, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.