The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Good to see discussion, but most of the detailed, thorough discussion was directed towards keeping the article - the good arguments from Dori notwithstanding. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 15:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alex Tanney[edit]

Alex Tanney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

I'm not sure how this one got out of Articles for Creation. The subject is a sophomore college football player. He does not appear to come remotely close to meeting WP:ATHLETE. Of the four "sources," one is a page listing his high school track records, one is a high school page that doesn't mention him, one is a college press release, and one is to an article that's mostly about his father (who was also his high school football coach). Upon doing my own research, I found a number of mentions of him in small papers, but they were all coverage of local football games--which, I believe, doesn't count. He may be notable someday, but it's a long way from a small midwestern college to the pros. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 03:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Since I wrote the above, User:71.113.200.203, who originally created the article, has modified the sources. However, they still don't qualify as verifiable or reliable. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 06:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Does not meet standard for WP:Athlete. Non-notable. Renee (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Please keep in mind that WP:Athlete is a standard for automotatic inclusion. It is not a basis for excluding a person. If a college athlete meets general notability standards, the article should stand. I don't have time this weekend to do detailed research, but the articles cited in the article (and a quick search of google) reveal non-trivial coverage that meets general notability standards. This is not just an average college football player at a small college. He has been selected as a 2009 Pre-Season All-American and was named the 2008 Midwest Conference Offensive Player of the Year headlining. An in just two years, he has already broken most of the college's passing records. This also establishes general notability. His totals of 3,624 passing yards and 50 passing TDs are extraordinary for a sophomore quarterback. Cbl62 (talk) 14:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Out of curiosity: if his numbers are so "extraordinary," why are there no mentions of them in verifiable reliable sources? Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 03:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Having reviewed the google news sources here, I'm with Cbl62: this bloke may not pass WP:ATHLETE but he does appear to meet the GNG.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 16:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: yep, those are the "number of mentions of him in small papers" that I referenced above. I don't believe that local coverage of his small town high school teams counts towards WP:GNG. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 22:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Fails WP:ATHLETE. Coverage of the local high school sports by the local paper is pretty much mandatory for a paper. That shouldn't be considered notable. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about passing references to a player in a story about a high school football game. Nobody's suggesting that would suffice. This guy has feature stories about him that satisfy general notability requirements. He has also set multiple records and was the 2008 Midwest Conference Offensive Player of the Year. Cbl62 (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: And these "feature stories" would be where? They're not linked by the article itself, and I haven't found them using this search. If you've got better sources, please add them to the article. I tried to find them, failed, and that's why I brought it to AFD. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 03:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Per WP:GNG and WP:ATHLETE, multiple stories covering Tanney as mentioned by Cbl62 along with the fact he's an award winner which pushes him over the wp:athlete bar.--Giants27 (c|s) 23:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: And citations for these awards can be found where? As with Cbl62's "feature stories," I can't find them. If you know of verifiable reliable sources that state that the subject has won awards that qualify him for WP:ATHLETE, please add them to the article. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 03:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to comment: To answer your questions, reliable sources for Tanney's records and awards include this one confirming he was named 2008 Offensive Player of the Year in the Midwest Conference, this one confirming he has been named a 2009 Pre-Season All-American, this one confirming that he holds at least two Midwest Conference passing records (though he is only a sophomore), this one verifying Tanney's records at Monmouth, this one showing he holds the all-time Kentucky Illinois high school record for pass completions. Examples of articles focusing on Tanney as the principal subject include this one and this one. Might you consider withdrawing the nomination now that your questions have been answered? Cbl62 (talk) 04:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take these one by one:

1. http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/Football/includes/MWC_FB_AC_08.pdf : Press release from the Midwest Conference.
2. Scots earn preseason kudos Monmouth, Illinois Daily Review Atlas. An article about the local college football team in a local paper. Tanney is only mentioned in paragraph 4 (out of 7).
3. Playoff football: Monmouth College ready for next step Galesburg, Illinois The Register-Mail. Another article about the local football team in a local paper. Tanney's not mentioned until paragraph 17 (out of 24).
4. Monmouth College - Sports Information - News Releases - Football - 2008 Monmouth College Press release.
5. IHSA Boys Football All-Time Individual Records (Passing & Receiving) A list of records on the Illinois High School Association website. The top honors are published in the National High School Sports Record Book. Number of times Tanney's high school records were included nationally: zero.
6. Tanneys take field together one last time Human interest story in Bloomington, Illinois's The Pantagraph (local daily paper) about Tanney's father's last game as coach.

That gives us one Illinois state-wide high school web site that doesn't count him as a top athlete, two press releases, and three mentions in local papers. According to this page, press releases are considered "non-independent sources," and as such "may not be used to establish notability." What's left is brief mentions in local papers.

So, he definitely doesn't meet WP:ATHLETE, and I don't see that he meets WP:GNG. Why hasn't he been mentioned in a single national round-up? Has he ever been mentioned in a paper outside Illinois? How about a feature story that's solely (or even primarily) about him? Note that this search—all news articles where he's mentioned that include "tanney" in the title—produces zero results

If he's that amazing, he'll get into Wikipedia someday on his merits. But he hasn't got there yet, and anything else is just WP:CRYSTAL. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 22:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

← outdent, refactor, and linking below by Dori (sorry if it offends)

Answers to Dori's questions/comments. You asked above for "verifiable reliable sources that state that the subject has won awards." I have provided them. You seem determined to seek deletion of this article even in the face of the very sources you sought to verify his awards. You have also posed this question: "How about a feature story that's solely (or even primarily) about him?" Actually, there are dozens of them available through Newsbank, and here are a few:

1. Tanney, Detmers named East MVPs in all-star game, Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News, July 24, 2007 link
2. Tanney sets scoring mark, Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News, February 9, 2007 link
3. Lexington grad named Midwest's offensive player of year, McClatchy-Tribune Regional News, November 25, 2008 link
4. Tanney throws Lexington into quarterfinals, Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News, November 6, 2006 link
5. Tanney makes his mark, The Pantagraph (Bloomington, IL), February 9, 2007 (dupe of #2)
6. Scots' Bell, Tanney take MWC honors, The Register-Mail (Galesburg, Illinois), November 22, 2008 link
7. Tanney honored again as Performer of the Week, Daily Review Atlas (Monmouth, IL), October 1, 2008 link
8. Monmouth QB Tanney earns conference honor, Peoria Journal Star, October 1, 2008 (dupe of #7)
9. Scots explode from halftime tie - Tanney tosses 6 TDs to 6 different receivers vs. Carroll, The Register-Mail, September 28, 2008 link
10. Mud suits Scots Tanney stays clean in debut at Zorn, The Register-Mail, September 14, 2008 link
11. Tanney leads Minutemen in new conference's debut, The Pantagraph, August 26, 2006 link
12. Future now for Tanney, Scots - Freshman QB sparkles in 1st game against Knox, The Register-Mail, November 4, 2007 link
13. Fighting Scots come up short against Knights - Tanney throws 56 passes for 405 yards, The Register-Mail, October 7, 2007
14. Another Tanney QBs Scots, The Register-Mail, August 31, 2007 link
15. Tanney delivers for Lexington, The Pantagraph, December 27, 2006 link (note: basketball)
16. League honors Monmouth quarterback, Peoria Journal Star, November 6, 2007
17. Young Scot wins his first Bronze Turkey - Freshman QB plays great, going 24-for-29 with 5 TDs in 42-14 win at Knox Bowl, Peoria Journal Star, November 4, 2007
18. Scots nab Tanney's little brother - Alex broke all of Mitch's passing records at Lexington, The Register-Mail, June 16, 2007 link
19. Tanney, Lexington upset No. 2 Galena, The Pantagraph, November 5, 2006 (dupe of #4)

His numerous records, awards, and this extensive news coverage pretty clearly establish his notability. The article could be improved, but there's no reason to delete. Cbl62 (talk) 06:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl62, I get the impression that I've offended you in some fashion. If I have, I'm very sorry as I certainly didn't mean to.

My perception is that the main place we're disagreeing is about specific meanings of phrases. For instance, when I refer to a feature story, I'm using the phrase as a journalist does, where it means something that (among other things) is not a news story. All of the above, to me, appear to be news stories. Similarly, when I refer to sources that are verifiable and reliable, I'm using those words in a specific manner: do the sources meet with Wikipedia's guidelines and policies? As such, some things (such as press releases) clearly are not reliable sources.

I've tried to track down as many of the above articles as I can (I don't have Newsbank access), and I was able to find most of them (the darn pjstar.com charges for their archives). I wanted to make sure that I was giving Tanney a fair look. I've added the links above, so anyone else who wants to can as well.

After reading them (and a number of others) my opinion hasn't changed: he's a talented college football player. He may very well make it to the pros one day. But right now:

• WP:ATHLETE : Has he "competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis"? No.
• Notability (local interests): "People, groups of people who are known locally and businesses and organizations that cater only to the local population are notable if there are multiple published sources (such as news articles) exclusively about the subject. A published newspaper that describes the person or business just as one of many subjects pertaining to a topic (such as an article on a city council describing many council people, or an article on restaurants within a town square) does not make a subject notable for a standalone article."... "A local interest is also considered to be notable for inclusion if it is sourced by a minimum of two (2) separate non-local sources." Here is where I'm just not seeing where he meets the standard (and yes, I know this is only a proposed policy, but it's a perfect example of what that's about). All of the above newspapers are covering their local teams, and as such, they don't show that he's notable outside the region.

Again, this isn't an attack on you, or whoever created the article, or Tanney himself. The fact is that many players on high school and college sport teams get a great deal of local coverage, and that's not enough to be considered notable. That's why we have guidelines, and that's how I read them. YMMV. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 01:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Keep. Several fairly extraordinary accomplishments that have garnered quite a bit of local attention and a little national coverage. NewsBank has 451 articles for "Alex Tanney", and it appears all are relevant (it's a rather uncommon name). Now, of these 375 come from Illinois (i.e., the vast majority), but there are a number from other places. Much of the coverage is trivial, but all of it comes from independent, reliable sources, and several articles discuss Tanney in some depth. As mentioned, he's won quite a few awards, including being "only the second sophomore to win the Offensive Player of the Year Award". Certainly, the coverage is not overwhelming but enough exists to create a neutral, verifiable article of decent length. Cool3 (talk) 15:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.