The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

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Tootie Perry, Edgar C. Jones, Goldy Golstein, Red Bethea, Larry Dupree, Charles Casey (American football), Vel Heckman[edit]

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Photograph of Carl "Tootie" Perry, the Gators' "jolly captain" and "Dixie's greatest guard"

Created by Cbl62 (talk), Dirtlawyer1 (talk). Nominated by Cbl62 (talk) at 19:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC).

  • Note: The nom is a few hours late on Edgar C. Jones but timely on the others. I ask for a few hours leeway on Jones. I am working on the QPQs. Cbl62 (talk) 19:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Seven QPQs have now been done for this 7-part nom. Cbl62 (talk) 21:27, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I believe this is a reliable source. I will ping @Dirtlawyer1: for his input on this. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
The "F Club" is the University of Florida Varsity Lettermen's Club, and it is the organization that maintains the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame. As simple as the F Club list is, it is the official list of "Gator Greats." I have added secondary sources for the induction of Tootie Perry (1992 news article) and Larry Dupree (2014 obituary), but most of these guys were inducted into the HOF in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, when it was much more low-key affair and news coverage of the Gators was sparse. Cbl already added a obituary footnote for Red Bethea's induction in 1986, and a news brief for Goldy Goldstein's induction in 1989. I am scouring the internet, but I may not find secondary sources for Jones, Heckman and Casey. The old newspaper searches are hit and miss, and I've often found HOF announcements by accident. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Not sure what language it is that you consider to be "flowery and wordy." The rules specify that multis are not limited to 200 characters; 300 characters for a 7-part multi strike me as pretty efficient. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
We could do that, but the goal is to draw page views to the newly created articles. The more articles that are linked in the hook, the greater the risk that page hits get diluted to the non-featured article. If you could respond to Tony's question above, that would be appreciated. Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: Cbl62 is an attorney in real life, and he has been consumed with RL concerns for the last week or so. I was one of the contributors to these articles and I am familiar with the subject material. If anything else needs to be done, please let me know and I will do my best to comply. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Dirtlawyer1. If you want, I can post an edited version of the hook with the cuts as I suggested as an ALT1. But at this point, it's up to TonyTheTiger to weigh in, since it's his review. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @TonyTheTiger:@BlueMoonset: Tony is one of the most active sports editors we have, and his editing history indicates he has been active in the last 24 hours. Please feel free to post your ALT1 version, and hopefully my ping will attract Tony's attention so we can wrap this up. Cheers, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The real problem here is that the one source is just a list of names and sports. There's nothing to explicitly connect these particular articles/people with that list; in particular, that lack for Jones, Heckman, and Casey is a problem, and something is needed to confirm that their articles are about those Gator Greats if the hook is to run at DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: Well, you mean other than the fact that these named athletes played for the Florida Gators football team as indicated by the list, right? But, yes, I understand what you're saying about sourcing: it's thin. FYI, the F Club list, such as it is, is the official list of Gator Great members of the UFHOF. For members who have been inducted since the late 1970s, I have usually been able to find newspaper articles about the then-current class of new inductees. Before that, not a lot of ink was spilled when these oldtimers were inducted at a private UF event, and in some case, posthumously. All of that is background so you can understand the available sources. For Jones, Heckman and Casey, would you accept an internal article/release from the UF athletic department, explicitly confirming their membership in the UFHOF? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Dirtlawyer1, I don't see how an internal article/release would qualify as "published" under WP:SOURCES, but as I consulted Crisco 1492 before my previous reply, I'll do so again on this, since he's more experienced than I am in these matters. I understand the background; unfortunately, when adequate sources aren't available, it affects what can be claimed in an article or hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
  • My objection was not to the source being primary, but to the lack of sports and other information necessary to contextualize this. Individual articles might be worth using, if nothing else is available, but that list doesn't have enough info. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @Crisco 1492: @BlueMoonset: There are no articles, either third-party newspapers or in-house, that support UFHOF membership for Jones, Heckman and Casey which are not simple lists. So, the alternative is to either (a) accept the F Club's UFHOF membership list, or (b) excise Jones, Heckman and Casey from the DYK text. Your call. Please advise, and I will do whatever is necessary to wrap this up. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
  • TonyTheTiger, thanks, but I naturally realized it as soon as the ping didn't get through to me, so I put a note on Crisco's talk page right afterward to get his attention directly. And, to return the favor, your edit broke this page because you'd used opening double brackets closed by a single bracket (the single was correct), which somehow messed up the DYKsubpage template. I've fixed that. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry (pictured), attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree?
I'm getting 200 characters if we only count the Tootie Perry link per the guidelines, or 203 if we count the longest of the four, Goldy Goldstein.
Dirtlawyer1, I should note that Jones, Heckman, and Casey can still have other hooks proposed for them, whether grouped in a single hook, two in one and one in another, or all three separate. Just because they don't have adequate support to be listed as Gator Greats doesn't mean there aren't good possibilities for hooks. Both Jones and Casey set single-season records; both Heckman and Casey were All-Americans and were both drafted and signed to NFL teams though neither played with them in the league, and Jones was the first Gator ever invited to play in a post-season game, went on to become the University's Athletic Director, and gave Red Barber his first "fee" as a broadcaster. Please feel free to propose an alternate four-Gator hook from ALT2, and also to propose one or more hooks for the other three. I'm sure TonyTheTiger will be happy to review them. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: I have no objection to proceeding with the four-player hook you propose above. I'm sorry that I did not make my agreement with your suggestions express. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Dirtlawyer1 do you intend to nominate the other three articles for the main page in other hooks. I can assess those here, if you do. I don't think a separate nomination would be considerered timely.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger, those other three are in the future, if ever. At this moment, we have a four-article hook that needs reviewing, so please review it so the four can finally be completed. If neither Cbl62 nor Dirtlawyer1 have come up with any hooks for the other three articles by the time these four are promoted, then the other three articles are summarily dropped and won't be eligible for consideration again unless they become Good Articles at some later point; it's that simple. This was nominated on September 9, and we've waited long enough. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
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