This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Fall of the House of Usher article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Shouldn't there be a plot summary of some kind? In this article, only the Roger Corman adaptation is summarized.
I don't see any basis for the assertion that "This is perhaps the first instance in modern litearure of a story in which an inanimate object is depicted as possessing sentience or a soul": the house of Usher isn't depicted as sentient or having a soul, as I recall (though I'd gladly rethink this if someone can find something from the story that's pertinent) and objects have been depicted with souls, animal, vegetable, and mineral, from time immemorial. - Nunh-huh 05:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Someone should aply whatever formatting is necessary to link to the wikisource full-text of FotHoF.
The section Film Adaptations and Influences contains a detailed passage describing differences between the film and story. While this is interesting, the author makes no reference anywhere here to which film version they are talking about !!!!
It would also help if we could perhaps have a disambiguation page created to differentiate between Usher the Poe story and perhaps the films.
Doesn't the simpsons treehouse of horror ONE (i think?) parody this partly, with a house that disappears after the inhabitants leave? Saccerzd 19:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I have proposed merging the article for The Mad Trist into this article. I don't think it will ever be more than a stub and, frankly, it's not notable enough to have its own article. Any thoughts? -Midnightdreary 17:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems like such an important story and deserving of a really great article on Wikipedia. However, I'm questioning the relevance of a large portion of this article that only serves to make it really long without much substance. Roderick Usher's library is not necessarily relevant to an encyclopedia article and it really doesn't amount to much more than a list (no analysis, etc.). Also, the allusions from other works? I hate them and they add nothing (plus many are often speculative). So what if the Simpsons made an Usher reference? Let that be on the appropriate Simpsons page or bury it on the Edgar Allan Poe in television and film article which was made, really, to take the extraneous junk out of decent articles. Anyway, I'm curious to hear if other people agree with me rather than just ripping it all out just because I personally don't like it. Thoughts? -Midnightdreary 15:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
--- Well I can hardly blame you for not waiting 12 years for a reply; however, I'm very sad to encounter this page without the listing of Roderick's library. I can't speak to its length or accuracy as it's been removed apparently without being posted here on the talk page for easy reinsertion into the page. Just a note for future editors, it's my opinion that such a listing is relevant and necessary. It could serve many functions, one of which would be to ascertain the sources of occult writings Poe thought worthy of including in this story! I'm not sure what could have been meant in the discussions about these works being 'unreferenced' as they are all in the text of the story. Lecky333 (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
I have moved the section on Allusions and References to other works of Art (or whatever it was called) into a subsection of Analysis along with Usher's library. I have simplified it a bit and removed some unsourced speculation that a line of Poe's was inspired by a painting of Fuseli. I'm not convinced it's 100% the way to go, but I'm worried about how much undue weight this section is being given compared to more important encyclopedic aspects of the story. Feel free to disagree. I think more clean up is needed, and I will probably soon merge the article on The Mad Trist into this section as well. --Midnightdreary 12:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
--- I was looking for the books mentioned after Usher's verses and before Madeline's death. In the paragraph beginning "Our books..." All of the titles and authors in this paragraph are real, and I personally believe they merit a section of the page as "Usher's book collection is a diverse assembly of occult lore and supernatural tales drawn from across two millennia." ~ quoted from Dana Gioia & R.S. Gwynn in the footnotes of The Art of the Short Story. pg 716. I would even suggest that some enterprising Poe fan should not only update this Wikipedia entry with Ushers 'library,' but also go ahead and create an account on a website that contains reading lists (goodreads for example) under the name Roderick Usher and add all those books to his read section, and update his progress on the imaginary Mad Trist. I sincerely hope that whatever 'removal of cruft' editing discussed here and below was not simply removing the list of books Poe actually chooses to include in the actual story! --Lecky333 (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
i thot it was agreed upon that the relationship was @ least supposed 2 be incestuous. the family has a history of incest as evidenced by the passage: "I had learned, too, the very remarkable fact, that the stem of the Usher race, all time-honored as it was, had put forth, at no period, any enduring branch"; in other words, that the entire family lay in the direct line of descent, and had always, with very trifling and very temporary variation, so lain."
so y "possible"/"potential"/(sumthin like taht, i 4got) theme of incest? y the uncertainty?75.45.213.230 22:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)tilde
This list has gotten out of control. I will look into cutting this into a very much smaller version, discussing only notable allusions. It's become cruft and is really detracting from the more serious, encyclopedic parts of this article. Boo. --Midnightdreary 20:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Ken Russell wrote and directed the 2002 film The Fall of the Louse of Usher (imdb). It is described as "an amalgam of several Edgar Allan Poe stories, and a mixture of comedy, horror and musical genres", which probably means that it can't rightfully be included in the "Adaptations" list. Or could it? — Loadmaster (talk) 18:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The following line from the analysys section has an extra bit by accident I think (the crow flies at midnight)
"But Poe's version of Gothic literature is a biased one because it is fundamentally the crow flies at midnight hyperbolic -- horror is here so intense that it verges on the grotesque
Grammar is not my strong point, so I may just be missing something but it reallu does not seem right —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.244.144 (talk) 20:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I had removed the section on "Allusions in other works", which was eventually reverted. The list has grown massive and it seems to qualify as cruft and trivia. The entire list remains unsourced and nearly all of them are violations of the policy on original research. I was planning on making this article the next focus for me to reach GA status, which it would certainly not pass with this section. Any reason it should all stay?
As a side note, I made the same observation some 15 months ago without a single response. Users with an interest in this article are encouraged to response to reach consensus, rather than just taking action if they disagree. --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
On the other hand, shouldn't a few things like Usher II by Ray Bradbury, for example, be linked to in here somewhere? I mean yeah, kill the cruft, but that doesn't mean there are NO allusions that are notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.48.152 (talk) 05:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I am relatively new to editing Wikipedia articles, but this article about Edgar A. Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher" was of special interest to me because the Usher House or mansion located in old Boston was owned by my 5th great grand uncle, Jonathan Williams from 1720 to a date I have not yet determined. Jon Williams, Sr lived from 1673 to 1737, and he probably bequeathed the house to his son, Jonathan Williams, Jr., who lived from 1699 to 1788. The latter had no surviving children. According to a book in my possession, Days and Ways in Old Boston, edited by William S. Rossiter (BostonL R.H. Stearns & Company, 1915), the original house, called a mansion in the book, was built in 1684 in a pasture as illustrated on page 96 at what was in 1915 the corner of Tremont Street and Temple Place. From the wording in the book, it was located in what is today Boston Commons, and probably near the present-day Boston Commons Visitors Center. It was not located on Lewis Wharf along the bay front; the source given, an A.I.A. Guidebook is incorrect.
I am David G. Sox and I can be reached at chesahbinu@comcast.net. SoxResidence (talk) 09:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I am relatively new to editing Wikipedia articles, but this article about Edgar A. Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher" was of special interest to me because the Usher House or mansion located in old Boston was owned by my 5th great grand uncle, Jonathan Williams from 1720 to a date I have not yet determined. Jon Williams, Sr lived from 1673 to 1737, and he probably bequeathed the house to his son, Jonathan Williams, Jr., who lived from 1699 to 1788. The latter had no surviving children. According to a book in my possession, Days and Ways in Old Boston, edited by William S. Rossiter (BostonL R.H. Stearns & Company, 1915), the original house, called a mansion in the book, was built in 1684 in a pasture as illustrated on page 96 at what was in 1915 the corner of Tremont Street and Temple Place. From the wording in the book, it was located in what is today Boston Commons, and probably near the present-day Boston Commons Visitors Center. It was not located on Lewis Wharf along the bay front; the source given, an A.I.A. Guidebook is incorrect.
I am [redacted] and I can be reached at [redacted]. SoxResidence (talk) 09:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Since I posted this last night and made edits to the article, I have discovered that the location of the original Usher mansion really took up three city blocks of modern Boston, and perhaps part of the southwest corner of the Boston Commons. I had assumed the house was in the Commons area since that remains undeveloped except for park vegetation and pathways. I overlooked that the urbanized Boston of today looked entirely different 200-300 years ago. Based on a further reading of my source, Days and Ways in Old Boston, and several maps and drawings in it, I have determined the Usher property on which the mansion was located is approximately bounded in modern Boston by Tremont Street to the northwest, Washington Street to the southeast, Avery Street to the south and Winter Street to the north. This same source also suggests that the house was not demolished but relocated to South Boston, so it is also possible that it was later relocated to Lewis Wharf as a tourist attraction. Finally, the correct citation is Walter K. Watkins, "An Historic Corner, Tremont Street and Temple Place" in Rossiter, William S., Days and Ways in Old Boston, Boston: R.H. Stearns & Company, 1915, pp. 91-130. SoxResidence (talk) 01:08, 6 September 2014 (UTC)SoxResidence
In a couple instances, the word "tarn" is used, I changed it to "lake". User:Midnightdreary, quite properly, requested more thought on the matter. Here's my take.
It is true that Poe used "tarn". This is partly because that sort of thing was the style back then, and partly because Poe is Poe, I guess. However, here we're trying to communicate to the reader the gist of the story, and using an unfamiliar word interrupts that. In our article on Antony and Cleopatra, we wouldn't say "In Act I, Antony arrives at Cleopatra's palace riding an armgaunt horse", since "armguant" is a word unfamiliar to the reader, notwithstanding that it is the term Shakespeare used. (If we were quoting from Shakespeare (or Poe) that'd be different. But we're not).
A tarn is a lake. Looking it up, it appears that it's a lake formed by a certain peculiarity of glaciation, but it doesn't look any different from other lakes formed in other ways -- at least, I don't think it does. (Even if it does, that's very peripheral to the story). If the article was involved with geology, or if it was important to the story that it was a glacial lake, that'd be different. Herostratus (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
It appears as if Madeleine,before her illness, was the strong and sound one of the siblings. Her death now leaves the sickly and weak Roderick as the last and perhaps final represenative of a family that never was able to produce lasting branches. It seems as if the house is destroying the strong and lifefull. Note the speculations about seemingly dead objects, not least the house, having some conciousness - and perhaps agenda.
Even though the publication history is significant information, I don't know if it deserves to have its own section because it is only four sentences long. Would it be reasonable to merge it with Sources of Inspiration and rename the section to History and Inspiration (or maybe just a terse "History" would do)? Haunted by a ghoti (talk) 03:25, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
The Fall of the House of Usher § Sources of inspiration says (emphasis added):
German writer E.T.A. Hoffmann, who was a role model and inspiration for Poe, published the story "Das Majorat" in 1819. There are many similarities between the two stories, like the breaking into of a house, [...]
Could someone who knows German check whether that should be "breaking in two"? The Fall of the House of Usher § Plot mentions a house's breaking in two, but not a house's being broken into. —2d37 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
After reading the various comments about whether the House has a soul, I offer the following observation: J O Bailey, in the article cited in the subject line, suggests that the House is alive and that it is a vampire with a soul which feeds upon Madeleine and Roderick, ultimately killing him. Bailey's excellent article can be found in the journal American Literature, volume 35 (1964). 192.154.183.50 (talk) 02:48, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
"Metaphysical identity" as used in the lede and justified by source "2" is unintelligible. Makes no sense, at least not as metaphysical is described in the relevant WP article. Just because a critic once coined a synesthetic phrase doesnt mean that it is good encyclopedical practice to use it unless can be explained. 62.92.48.66 (talk) 07:42, 3 March 2022 (UTC).
This was added to the page without sources. Normally, this kind of interpretation would need a reliable source
In Roderick Usher's view, the house in which he and his sister reside is itself alive and even conscious. This, he feels, arises from a metaphysical synergy borne out of the arrangement of the constructed architecture and the plantlife and natural growth outside. His opinion is not wholly corroborated by the narrator's observations, however unusual occurrences that the narrator relates do seem to indicate the house changing in ways reflective of the metaphorical House of Usher, i.e. the family unit.
A prominent example of this is found in the way the mansion's Chekhovian crack suddenly widens to the point of splitting the house apart, directly following the deaths of both remaining members of the family and the dissolution of both the twin-sibling unit and thus the collapse of the familial House of Usher. As such, even if the mansion is not regarded as a conventionally sentient character in the story, its presence as the setting is dynamic in such a way that makes the backdrop a shifting metaphor that parallels both their lives and deaths as their final days play out. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 03:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Kind of a weird sentence tharsaile (talk) 23:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)