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OK folks, I've started an article. I don't have time to fill in the spaces, but I hope that others will pitch in. Zora 01:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you say that all Shi'a hold the same views about the succession to Muhammad, and differ on the imams they accept after Husayn. On that basis, we might as well change the organization and just have a "Shi'a" section pure and simple.
One caveat: I thought that there were some Shi'a who didn't accept Hassan as the second imam, but counted Husayn as the second. I'll have to rummage through the book I'm reading to find the reference. Zora 23:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What about Ibadi views? Not that I know... - Mustafaa 19:13, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Im ignorant there.--Zereshk 02:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) i agree
I'm glad to see someone putting in Sunni hadith references, instead of deleting Shi'a ones.
Though it would be great if we could make them look nice, like the Shi'a section.
Also, this page needs to extensively be linked to all muslim pages. I'll get to that tomorrow I guess.--Zereshk 03:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I asked earlier about these problematic verses in the Passages used by The Shi'a subsection of the article. I looked them up (Chapter 5, Verse 55 and Chapter 5, Verse 3 and Verse 67) and they seem to have nothing to do with the succession. Chapter 5 verse 55 reads:
Verse 3 reads:
Verse 67 reads:
How are any of these at all related to caliphal succession and how are they "used by the Shia?" --AladdinSE 23:53, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
If there's a step in the argument that has to be supplied from another website, you haven't made your argument, Zereshk. You can't just refuse to spell it out and tell us we're ignorant if we don't understand it.
I must say that I agree somewhat with AladdinSE in finding your expository style dense and unreadable. I can't even READ the list -- MEGO. My eyes glaze over. Whereas I'm reading Madelung's book about the same issues with utmost interest. He puts the hadith (copiously footnoted) into a narrative context and adds all the information the reader needs to catch their significance. He is especially good at highlighting the kinship links between all the actors and spelling out why such-and-such action was necessary, given Arabian beliefs about proper behavior towards kin. I'm not ready to dump your list, but I agree that it needs to redone in a narrative form. What we need is a Shi'a narrative, with the hadith references in a footnote section. So, tell us exactly what happened, from the Shi'a POV. Zora 04:37, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zora, since you are un-willing to even look at any of the references I post, I will cut and paste what Qom and Najaf say about the verses:
To prove the caliphate of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Shi'ites have had recourse to Quranic verses, including the following: "Your friend [wali] can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor-due, and bow down (in prayer) [or, and this reading is accepted by 'Allamah Tabataba'i: "....pay the poor-due while bowing down (in prayer)"]" (Quran, V, 55). Shi'ite and Sunni commentators alike agree that this verse was revealed concerning Ali ibn Abi Talib, and many Shi'ite and Sunni traditions exist supporting this view. Abu Dharr Ghifari has said: "One day we prayed the noontime prayers with the Prophet. A person in need asked people to help but no one gave him anything, 'Oh God! Be witness that in the mosque of the Prophet no one gave me anything.' Ali ibn Abi Talib was in the position of genuflection in the prayers. He pointed with his finger to the person, who took his ring and left. The Prophet, who was observing the scene raised his head toward heaven and said: 'Oh God! My brother Moses said to Thee, "Expand my breast and make easy my tasks and make my tongue eloquent so that they will comprehend my words, and make my brother, Harun, my help and vizier" [cf. Quran, XXVIII, 35]. Oh God! I am also Thy prophet ; expand my breast and make easy my tasks and make Ali my vizier and helper.'" Abu Dharr says, "The words of the Prophet had not as yet finished when the verse [cited above] was revealed." Tabari Dhakha'ir al-'uqha, Cairo. 1356. p.16. This hadith has been recorded with a slight variation in al.Durr al-manthur. vol.ll, p.293. In his Chayat al maram p. 103 Bahrani cities 24 hadiths from Sunni sources and nineteen from Sh'ite sources concerning the conditions and reasons for the revelation of this Quranic verse. These pesudio hadith are so weak they can not even be considered hadith, this is pure fiction made up to support shia views. It is a well accepted fact that Muhammad (PBUH) did not appoint a sucessor.
Another verse which the Shi'ites consider as proof of the caliphate of Ali is this: "This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (even harming) your religion ; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM" (Quran, V, 3). The obvious meaning of this verse is that before that particular day the infidels had hopes that a day would come when Islam would die out, but God through the actualization of a particular even made them lose forever the hope that Islam would be destroyed. This very event was the cause of the strength and perfection of Islam and of necessity could not be a minor occasion such as the promulgation of one of the injunctions of religion. Rather, it was a matter of such importance that the continuation of Islam depended upon it.
This verse seems to be related to another verse which comes toward the end of the same chapter: "O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou will not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind." (Quran, V, 67). This verse indicates that God commanded a mission of great concern and importance to the Prophet which if not accomplished would endanger the basis of Islam and prophecy. But the matter was so important that the Prophet feared opposition and interference and in awaiting suitable circumstances delayed it, until there came a definite and urgent order from God to execute this command without delay and not to fear anyone. This matter also was not just a particular religious injunction in the ordinary sense, for to preach one or several religious injunctions is not so vital that if a single one of them were not preached it would cause the destruction of Islam. Nor did the Prophet of Islam fear anyone in preaching the injunctions and laws of religion.
These indications and witnesses add weight to the Shi'ite traditions which assert that these verses were revealed at Ghadir Khumm and concern the spiritual investiture (walayat) of Ali ibn Abi Talib. Moreover, many Shi'ite and Sunni commentators have confirmed this point.
Abu Sa'id Khudari says: "The Prophet in Ghadir Khumm invited people toward Ali and took his arm and lifted it so high that the white spot in the armpit of the Prophet of God could be seen. Then this verse was revealed: 'This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM.' Then the Prophet said, 'God is great (Allahu akbar) that religion has become perfected and that God's bounty has been completed, His satisfaction attained and the walayat of Ali achieved.' Then he added, 'For whomever I am the authority and guide Ali is also his guide and authority. Oh God! Be friendly with the friends of Ali and the enemy of his enemies. Whoever helps him, help him, and whoever leaves him, leave him.'" Bahrani, Chayat al-maram , p.336. where six Sunni and fifteen Shi'ite hadiths oncerning the occasion and reason for the revelation of the above Quranic verse are cited.
I can also cut and paste hundreds of pages about the hadiths if you like--Zereshk 07:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC).
My dear AladdinSE,
I presented you with the view of 200 million Shi'a. That you do not see it convincing or impartial, is your problem to deal with. As I said, for the sections dealing with "Shi'a views", impartiality is not the issue at all, but rather, what the Shi'as view to be true is what we wish to write about. I will provide a hyperlink as well. Just for you.--Zereshk 09:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My dear Zora, of course I am not 200 Million Shi'a. But the views I am presenting here are the views of the Shi'a mainstream. No ands, ifs, or buts. Unless you are saying that Qom does not represent Shi'a views? In fact I have been presenting the leftist view of Shi'a doctrines, just so that people like you and AladdinSE wont go ballistic.--Zereshk 22:54, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zora, I apologize for saying "dear Zora". I didnt know you hold such vehemently antagonistic views toward me. Again, I apologize.
now...
Answers
Answer to point 1 by Zora:
Answer to point 2 by Zora:
Character assassinating me is not the way to go, Zora. Instead, please please please accept the right of the Shi'a to express themselves on Wikipedia.
Instead of attacking me, why do you never ask me for further references and resources to verify what I write? I can provide you with more than enough of that.
Your anti-Shi'a position is obvious! What more can I say! :)
Comment:
Zora said:
"If there is ANY validity at all to the Shi'a tradition..."
I think that is self explanatory of the unusual vicious atmosphere we have prevalent here. Zora is out to prove that the Shi'a are wrong.
Suggestion; An easy solution to the problem.
Here's an idea:
fair?
And if that fails, I am ready to take this discussion to arbitration. It seems we are getting nowhere with this talk. Do you agree?--Zereshk 03:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On a side note....
It's pretty funny, you know. I too have been taking flak here from you and others for being too pro-Shi'a, yet everytime I go to Iran for a visit, I have to put up a similarly intense fight to defend America and American ideals in debates from vicious right wing Iranian nationalist/religious freaks.
I have to take it from both sides.--Zereshk 13:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am currently busy with other things. I therefore do not have time to oversee or even read the new text that keeps appearing on Shi'a pages. But sooner or later, hopefully I will.--Zereshk 20:06, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This debate seems to be mixing all kinds of issues. The question of how to explain Shia views is separate from the question of what Shia views are, and I think it's quite reasonable to give a narrative presentation, rather than just pasting in loads of hadith with little explanation. And the question of what people think of Shia clerics, or of Iranian politics, is neither here nor there... - Mustafaa 23:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also agree. Ive already put in a narrative section for the hadith. I will put in more soon. You are right. Each hadith must be explained as well.--Zereshk 06:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed the section on Shi'a views, because I discovered that it was copied directly from Sayyed Hossein Nasr's introduction to the Tabatabai book. Even though that book is online, to be read by anyone, that doesn't mean that it's OK to cut-n-paste huge swathes from it without attribution. The selection really wasn't the right thing -- we just need a narrative. Zora 12:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If the selection "wasnt the right thing", that's one issue.
But if taken out because of "copyright violation", then I will have to inform all that the 3rd printing of the book, under Ansarian Publications of The Islamic Propagation Office of the Islamic Seminary of Qom has allowed the copy and pasting of material out of this book. In fact, I had to call them to re-verify this.
If anyone wishes to further investigate my claim above, they can personally email the publishers: Ansarian@noornet.net
Hence I will continue to use that and other sources provided by them to enrich the information on wikipages.--Zereshk 14:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think there is something we can all agree on, and that is this VFD. It's about the so-called "Islamofascism". The most NPOV way to treat this is to redirect it to a list of political epithets, but it seems some people want to turn it into an article about how Islam is a fascist ideology comparable to Nazism.Yuber 00:12, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am a Shia Muslim and I have been trying to improve as many Islam-related articles as I can. I apologise if I have not always explained what I have done. I also hope that disputes neither hinder the progress of a particular article nor suspend any future editing, because it is important that Islamic perspectives are presented as they actually are.
There is a question that I have, however, that may be answered by Zora if she wishes, and my question is this: Of course as with any encyclopedia, the text must be presented from a neutral point of view. However, clearly many historians who documented Islam-related events were Shias. Does this necessarily exclude them from being relied upon for presenting reliable facts? It may well be that a non-Muslim historian maybe no more trustworthy than a Muslim historian. I presume that we should accept that we will have to be content with using both Shia and Sunni sources. Furthermore, surely a Christian or an Atheist historian can also be considered to be biased towards his or her own belief system. Thank you. Adamcaliph 00:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC).
Thank you for the reply Zora. Adamcaliph 02:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Good luck to you Adamcaliph. The forces of Jihalat are in full strength here on Wikipedia! :) --Zereshk 03:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed all the Qur'an quotes, hadith dumps, disquisitions re the nature of the imamate, etc., and tried to present some comprehensible narratives that would be comprehensible to non-Muslim users of Wikipedia.
Too many of the Muslim editors seem to be completely in thrall to the long history of Sunni-Shi'a debate. Asked to outline their position, they fall back on old methods of intra-Muslim debate, in which it is ASSUMED that all combatants will be Muslim and will accept some documents or traditions as binding. Argument thus reduces to squabbles over the meaning of a verse from the Qur'an, what "occasion of revelation" explains it, what hadith are to be trusted, why certain narrators in the chain of isnad are unreliable ... it is a debate that makes sense only within a framework of shared belief. This does not work for non-Muslims.
Sunni-Shi'a debate would make a good article, I think, and if someone else wants to start writing a history of the debate before I get to it, please do! This would be the place for the hadith dumps and the arguments re occasions of revelation. Zora 11:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The article is much simpler, and possibly easier to read. The article needed a spring clean. I imagine that it has become a lot clearer to the non-Muslim who is generally unfamiliar with, as you put it, the “Intra-Muslim Debate”. However, may I make the following suggestions:
I believe that the above statement is POV. Sunnis agree with the statement; Shi’as disagree with the statement.
May I suggest the following version:
The Shi'a believe that God has stated that the world is never left without a vicegerent. They therefore believe that Muhammad, being one of God’s vicegerents, appointed a successor. They believe that God chose Ali to be the successor. They believe that before he died, Muhammad, in accordance with God’s will, indicated at various times, and in various ways, his trust and reliance upon Ali. Ali was not only his cousin, but the husband of his daughter Fatima, and the father of his beloved grandchildren Hasan and Husayn. Ali was a leader in battle, entrusted with command, and left in charge of the community at Medina when Muhammad led a raid on Tabuk.
I believe that this version is more accurate and possibly better explains the Shi’a perspective that it is not up to humans to appoint the Leader of humankind; rather, no one else other than God can make such an appointment.
It is not the occurrence of the event that is disputed by Sunnis; rather it is the significance of what was said at the event. As such, it is slightly misleading to provide "The Shi'a say..."
I believe that there should be a heading for the non-Muslim books.
Certainly the article is moving in the right direction. Well done. Adamcaliph 02:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you haven't made clear what you mean by the hadhyan of Umar. Google brings up nothing useful and there's nothing in the index to Madelung. As for your threat that you will not give a Shi'a "endorsement" unless you get to include all the hadith you feel are relevant ... well, I dispute your standing to speak for all the Shi'a, and I do not feel that the article would be any more readable if the hadith were included. If you wanted to write an article entitled Hadith cited by the Shi'a in defense of their version of the succession to Muhammad then we could link to it. Then it would be there, but not cluttering up the article. Zora 03:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Zora, please read all of this carefully and honor the time I put into writing it. It took an hour for me to write it. Instead of trying to answer me right away chopping my paragraphs, please first think about what Im saying for a while. Especially the last item.
1. You cant dispute me on what I am. I am a Shia (though from a more introspective, enigmatic, and liberal school of thought), and you do not know my faith better than I do. Youre an outsider. Neither does Madelung, or anyone else, no matter how hard they try. You dismiss Qom and any Marja of Taqleed I provide. So I easily dismiss you and all your "academic" babble. So that's that.
2. That being said, I repeat: This article lacks any credibility as long as the Shia voice is not heard. A seemingly academic take on the Shia's view cannot substitute the Shi'as actual view.
3. You do not understand the significance Hadith has for both Sunni and Shia in Islam. I cannot really argue with someone on some topic, when that person is not informed on that topic. A physicist cannot argue about Physics with someone who doesnt know physics.
4. Of course Google wont give you anything on Hadhyan (هذیان). Since when is google a source for academics? If you mention the incident of Mohammad's will, then you must have fidelity and mention all of what happened. Omar accused Mohammad of saying hazyan, therefore ruling out the need for a will. This view is not my view. It is the Shia view. And you suppress it because you simply feel a political affinity for Arabs.
Ah yes. I know where your problems with me stem from. You dont even understand the real meaning of the word "nationalism" that you keep throwing at me. But then again, you arent at fault. Youre an outsider. And you come from an academic background that Edward Said kept pointing at. i.e. the orientalist. What bothers me though, is that you desperately try to remain an outsider and shut out the world from what we (the insiders) have to say, only because Qom is in "Persia" (that land where its people think so highly and pompous of themselves). But did you ever try to go further than that apparent observation and try to see why they seem to see the world that way? Did you ever try to view the world from our eyeglasses? Ethnicity, racism, and nationalism are all diseases from the west. Did you ever ask why me and SC act the way we do? Or did you just jump to conclusions based on what you see? It's the world is only what is seen attitude. Another western academic product. How should I put it....: Nationalism is "us vs. them". Trying to save a culture and heritage from being erased is not nationalism. Our philosophy is "us AND them". It's exactly what Khatami meant by "dialogue of civilizations". He was trying to say that "we also exist as a civilization just like you do". Why? Because he, me, and SC very easily spot shit like this happening everyday. Nationalism is solipsistic, whereas we acknowledge the greatness of others. Cyrus the Great kicked ass. But so did Buddha and Heisenberg and the Mesopotamians who invented writing and the wheel and arithmetic.
I fight for those who get swept under the rug of history, whether Arab, Persian, Muslim, or Fijian. Naturally, youre never there to see me defending Arabs or Muslims (regardless of their Sunni or Shia background). Youre never there to see me attack Persians either. Humans only tend to see the negativity in others. And at this point in time, the rights of the Shia, and the memory of Iran and Persia, in specific, are being swept under the rug of history more than the others in ways like this, and nobody's noticing. Except us of course, the insiders, and those who know. We remember the days in the 70s when bookshleves in places like Borders and Barnes and Nobles had equal amounts of books on China, Egypt, India, and Persia. Tell me, did you notice the sound of the fly buzzing around ugly and mean looking Persian soldiers ready to battle Alexander in Oliver Stone's new movie "Alexander The Great"? In his commentary in the extra features section of the DVD, Stone actually says "we tried to make the Persians look dirty". and Im thinking..."but WHY???" He made it into an east vs west thing. But do people actually know that Iranians name their kids "Iskandar" (Alexander) even today? Rent the movie from Blockbuster. You may laugh at my comment. "Oh, so a fly bothered you. That's hardly academic and important in reality". Just think, Why is it that (overall), the villains in western media culture are traditionally black haired people or people of color while the good guys are always blondes and fair skinned? Cultures are shaped and deformed by such propaganda and negative publicity. That's exactly how Bush goes to war convincing 50% of Americans that Saddam was actually behind 9-11 (even though I hated the bastard Saddam myself). The point is, that we see the blackout that's been going on because of some stupid thing Khomeini did 25 years ago. It is all driven by political conflicts. Unfortunately, what such people (like yourself) do not understand is that the heritage of Persia also belongs to you and all humanity, not just me and SC, the genetic inheritors. Genetics has no meaning anyway, since Persia was made of 100 different ethnic groups. It's what our great sage Sadi so openly declared when he said:
You can read these lines on the UN building walls in NY. (they were engraved in the Shah's time. I'm not sure if they are still there today. Perhaps a quote from Virgil or Erasmus has replaced it.)
That's the very reason why I'm here spending precious time on Wikipedia. Because this is one of the very few places where the information blackout does not extend to. Please, ....leeeaaaarn. There is much more to the world than what is apparent to your eye. Visit Iran, live among their people, then call them nationalist. Visit Qom, then decide. Live with the Shia. Then try to claim you know them.--Zereshk 09:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, since Zora doesnt accept anything I say about Shias (as a Shia), I went to the trouble of scanning documents. This is what Shias say about the Hadhyan (delirious) reference of Omar to Mohammad for "the will":
--Zereshk 00:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, I was going to move your note to "look at page 33" to the article for that hadith, but I found that the note was already there. If the reader wants to find out more about the hadith, the info is there. There's no need to clutter up the article here, which is already chock-full of hard-to-digest info.
I appreciate your moving the hadith references out to their own articles. That makes the main article easier to read and also gives us more room to talk about the reliability of the hadith, or interpretation of the hadith. Zora 23:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
A question for all of you... If maters related to deen are so disputed...and if all of us agree that there is One God and that Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was the last prophet...why argue about anything else?...yes the Caliphs were amazing people with characters we should all follow...but if it means a split in our people...why not just stick to the fact mentioned...that there is One God and Muhammad is the final messenger. To me this whole shia sunni thing is a matter of who´s right and whose wrong...I seriously doubt the intentions of those who persist on fighting on who was to be the real first caliph! Yes it made a difference at the time...but how does it effect you as a muslim today? Are we not told to stick together and follow simply the Quran and Sunnah? Surely the main aim of Islam is to believe in Allah and thank Him for His blessings and worship none other than Him. The main idea being to please Allah...why then have we all resorted to dwelling (in my opinion) on pity issues. Is it really worth the split in muslims?
"And hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided amongst yourselves" Quran.
S Anwar
I agree, but no-one is asking you to accept those beliefs...all is asked of you to respect their beliefs. What they believe in after Muhammad...as far as it doesn´t claim a new prophet or an equal to Allah....makes no difference. To me (i may be wrong) the right of Ali to be or not to be the caliph or Abu Bakar to be the caliph is as important as whether or not the president of my country wins the next election or not. Yes its important to choose the right ruler...but it doesn´t really matter when the country doens´t exist anymore does it!...we don´t ahve a khilafa anymore ...yes if we did it would be a disputable topic since we coudl fight on who is the rightful khalifa...but there is no khilafa...and fighting over wat happened in the past won´t change the future. I repeat IF the difference comes down to who was to rule after Muhammad....forget it!. Yes we have been told to follow Ahl al-Bayt...to me the best thing do is follow the 10 blessed companions...that doens´t mean quarrelling over Abu Bakar and Ali´s political position, but to follow their personalities and strive like they did to perfect following the Prophets personality and teachings! You metioned Sahih Muslim, then truely you would have read in the signs of qiyaamah that muslims would be enemies to one another...you can argue and say its inevitable...but to me (if i could say this to all muslims)...just stick together...surely the word of Allah is greater than any companion of the Prophet. If Allah commands "Hold fast to the rope of Allah and be not divided amongst yourselves", we should follow that blindly...if people fight with you regarding caliphs or religion thats between them and Allah, atleast we should try and stay away from anything that invokes hate between our own people. I repeat...one who says the Kalima IS a muslim, even if you know for sure they don´t mean it or they are just saying it to save their lives or for watever reason...one who says the kalima is a muslim...fullstop. If a shia says the Kalima and believes in One Allah and Muhmmad (p.b.u.h) then he/she is a muslim and i oppose anyone who says the opposite. Yes if they equal Ali with the prophets (which i doubt they do) then you can question their faith...but still calling someone a kafir is a big thing...and since when has man become the judge of things of the sort.
At the risk of opening a whole new battleground, I'd like to suggest some knowledgeble people create a section on the current effects on the succession dispute. On a surface level, the question is now moot - the individuals involved have died and it seems pointless to divide up a religion today over a question of who should have held an office 1300 years ago. But, even as a non-Muslim, I realize there are greater issues involved. It would be good to explain the current doctrinal differences between Shi'a and Sunni and how they evolved from their original differences of opinion over the succession. MK2 03:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear friends Zora and others I made changes to the article succession to Muhammad, where I changed only the sunni view ( just added to it) it was written by shia. All my changes reversed. I demand my changes returned. Striver is not a Shia but an off shoot shia of the Ghula who worship Ali ( article of Ali), where my changes are also reversed. I contend with only making changes in the Sunni View which always comes next, why? Sunnis are 95% of Muslims population while Shia are 3% the remaining 2% are Druze, Ahmadi, Ibadi alawi( who are not considered shia) yet Striver Alawi is making the bulk of the article. This is absurd( if you are amking a WORLD Encyclopedia) other wise in the currect version you should call it ( exotic and pervert encyclopedia)! The Wikipedia should be purged fromall the additions that are not related to the subject ( myths for example), We are talking about facts here. Also the Sunni view should come first( 95% of Islam), That is if you really want to know about Islam, other wise you if you need to look your self in the mirror then you do that and don't go all this work. My changes on this article ( succession to Mu) and (Ali) are reasonable if you really read them. If you don not, I am going to send complaints every where devaluating your Encyclopedia in the media.
Adnan, I hate to keep undoing your work, BUT your edits are sub-standard English AND you're asserting matters as fact that are in fact Sunni belief. You can't just say that shura is prescribed in the Qur'an, for example. Please take this one bit at a time, instead of trying to revise the entire article to PROVE that the Sunni are right. Zora 05:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Zora
It is not a crime if my English is substandard as you claim.
you can fix my bad English or a administrator can do that ( they are paid to do that don't worry,
but you should not remove my edits they are under standable, they are not debatable:
Abbasids claim for khilafa is based on their lineage from Abbas and that is why they their name come from ( this does not require a proof) as for The page say that Abbasids returned to the claims of first khalifs , that is blasphemy and you keep returning it. The subject of the succession to Muhammad is not a shia subject or an anti-islam subject. The page was full of shia assersions out side the shia view and you were comfortable with that, why?
The sunni view was written by shia presenting a sunni view from a shia website which was in the sunni links. I sent it to the shia link. The sunni view as now is not the sunni view. are you happy with that as for me I have added a link that include all the references names of books that bolster my edits, so you don't have to erase my edits.( because you say they are open to debats, well11 how about the shia view are they not open to debate, so why don't you delete them. I am afraid you are complicit some how. I put in the sunni view that story about Al-Muhsin is not true, because if it is true there will be names of people in that name immediately after the incident or say 100 years or two hundred years.
I don't have to bring you a proof, you bring me a proof that Yes there was a man named Muhsin in the 100 H or 200 h and then you refute my claim. How about that. I have compiled several places and articles where there is obvious malingering, and if I present these evidences to critics or say Encyclopedia Britanica, you rating will fall. do you want me to go ahead and do that, because this is what I am going to do. It is gone too far for Wikipedia invaded by full time editors and administrators who promote the shia view on the expense of the truth a encyclopedia should show!!!!!!!!!
Just to be fair:
Excuse me saltyseaweed: Muhammad was never a secular leader! The word secular or anything similar to it is absent from the Arabic language. There is no secularity in Islam, because Muhammad embodied the religious, military, economic and cultural leader of Medina. Therefore, the Companions and al salafi al salih were the leaders of all things pertaining to Islam. Because the shahada, 'ash hadu an la illaha illaha, ash hadu Mohammed ur rasulullah, makes it clear that there is to be no intermediary between the umma and Allah, it is haram to have a "secular" leader in Islam, as it would place the authority of a government ahead of Allah's authority. Democracy in a culturally amicable sense both with regard to local cultures and Islam at the heart of its essence is permissable, the leader must follow the example of Muhammad and his Companions and not rule in a way that is in conflict with a modern application of shari'a.
Additionally, the last ten years of Muhammad's life were referred to as al maghazi, or "the raids" referring to the battles that were engaged in to spread the Quranic message, and is never symbolic of anything secular!
I just wanted to clarify saltyseaweed's assertions. caswe
I reverted some of your edits. Frex, you had changed "Muhammad was a secular ruler for the last ten years of his life" to "was a leader of the Muslim community ...". Now, he'd been leading the Muslim community for close to 20 years. It's just that in the last ten he acquired a land base, an army, and a web of alliances. I would call that becoming a secular ruler as well as a religious leader. Perhaps we should add the "as well as religious leader" to the text?
Also, you added "Shi'a believe that" to some sentences in the Shi'a section. I think that the fact that the sentences are IN the Shi'a section indicates their POV. We don't need to continually re-specify at the sentence level. Also, just as an aside, it isn't just the Shi'a who say that Ali wasn't mentioned at Saqifah, or that a Medinan elder was beaten up -- you can find these details in Ibn Ishaq, who is a Sunni historian. Zora 02:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Zora, I have a problem with the word "secular" as I think the word is misused in the sentence. While it is true that the kinds of authorities (army/alliance/land base) Muhammad yielded are governmental in nature, not all governments are secular. Secular denotes neutrality in regard to religion. Obviously not all governments are secular, and certainly not the early Muslim community. I think "the leader of the Muslim Community" is the best description as those powers you mention were not even new to Muhammad (he was considered the legal, religious, and military leader among the Muslims from the beginning as far as I know).
Rather, as the community grew, Muhammad's power grew in magnitude. I apologize for the incorrect date, though, you are right that it should be close to twenty years.
I added "Shia' believe that" despite the section being in Shi'a section simply because "according to the Shi'a" and other likewise clauses are used throughout the section. Therefore, the LACK of such a clause may, in context, be construed as the statement being universally accepted.
My correction regarding Medinan elder was more for clarity. The original sentence said the Umar was "willing to beat up" the elder. As there is a distinction between being willing to do a thing and actually carrying it out, I simply thought my sentence was clearer.
Having said these things, I am going to make a small alteration to the article to get your attention. We can continue the discussion further. Saltyseaweed 15:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, as most visitors to Wikipedia I came here today for some cross-reference, and the topic "Succession to Muhammad" would have been what I needed. Seeing the "disputed warning" I went to the talk page, where I'm now, slightly chocked and that's not the reason I came here (that was to use Wikipedia as a encyclopaedia). Honestly Zereshk, your writing is not about Shia or not, that is just something you try to hide behind. Problem is your attitude, not your sources, work or belief. There is no question that you can contribute a lot to Wikipedia, but allow me to look at from the users point of view. If a user want information about the Succession to Muhammad, then s/he wants that. First of all who the successors was, dates, any special events during their time and so forth. The average user is not interested in a free fall into a spider’s nest of religious opinions. An article about the successors should have the basic facts, and then added a small section called something like: "different views on the successors". That's the place where the general difference on Shia and Sunni view should be mentioned. ANY details more than the general information should be own articles IMHO. As a user of Wikipedia I don't care if the writer is Shia, Sunni, Druse, or whatever - in fact that should NOT reflect in the article. An encyclopaedia article should give such a balanced view that one would not be able to guess what personal belief the writer/s got. Where more than one opinion is around, the subject of the article should still be the sole focus. If any diversities need further information, these different opinions / religious views, can be explained in own articles and linked to from this article. The attitude you show here Zereshk is not helping the users of Wikipedia, and that should be your sole interest when editing articles, AND when discussing with fellow editors here... ArnvidAA
I edited some bit here and there to show some historical accuracy, and correct undue bias towards the shia view in 'an overview of events'.The shia were not known as rafidhi until much later during the time of Zaid, the great grandson of Ali. They were just known as "Shia". Muslims make a distinction between Rafidha Shias and Zaidi Shias. The former are known to curse and cast doubt on most of the companions of Muhammed. While the latter are not much different from sunnis except that they dispute the fact tht Abu Bakr was more apporpriate then Ali for the caliphate and also the later events regarding the Khawarij. I strongly agree with ArnvidAA..--Blingpling 05:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I strongly second ArnvidAA's message. As a user of Wikipedia, I ask that editors be as respectful and user-focused in their efforts as possible - especially in consideration of those users who are approaching this topic for the first time. Where a topic is understood in various ways by groups holding various irreconcilable views, a brief description of these different views must be provided - again, to the extent necessary to frame and describe the issue to a novice user. However, a user will not want and should not expect to be presented with defenses of any of these various views.
Editors, having their own views on this topic, will naturally find an encyclopedia-style definition of a subjective topic incomplete and, I am sure, would elaborate at length in a more appropriate venue. Thus, the limitations of this job requires quite a bit of restraint of them. Users, if interested, can pursue elaborations and commentary on the different views described through other avenues than an encyclopedia, which should maintain absolute dispassionate objectivism. --msludwick
There are next to no sources for Islamic history that come from the pre-Abbasid period. We are told that there were oral traditions, but nothing was written down until the early Abbasid period. What we know of the development of Shi'a Islam is that there were no Shi'a, as known today, with all their doctrines, in the first hundred years of Islam. They were called Shi'at Ali, or Rafidi, and they were both a political party, a regional party (Iraq and Iran against Syria), and a religious tendency (piety rather than worldliness). It wasn't until Jafar that some of the doctrines associated with Shi'ism today were developed. It was only somewhat before that that Shi'at Ali became abbreviated to Shi'a.
Contemporary Sunni and Shi'a both try to "backdate" their sects to the time of Muhammad, insisting that everything they believe now was there in Medina in 631 CE. Academics do not accept this. They see the traditions as developing, and changing.
Muslims aren't alone in this. Christians or Buddhists insist that they have the true doctrine, just as it was preached and practiced by Jesus or Buddha, and that of course Jesus was a Methodist, or Buddha a Ch'an monk. Historians must debunk this.
Of course we can give the "orthodox" views, but we have to give the historical view too. Zora 09:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has digressed into something it was specifically not intended to be. While it is not very important as to who wrote it, the initial author while attempting to maintain neutrality has created a controversial format for this article. I personally feel that this article has a Shia slant, but to each his own. This has turned into a Sunni/Shia debate as to who and why so and so should have been the successor. Many of the sub topics are irrelevent and only further this debate. The article is about the succession to Muhammad. Some of the sub topics while offering some insight into time period, only ignite conflict and need to be trimmed for the sake of neutrality. Remember, the purpose of this article is NOT to PROVE who is right and who is wrong but only to explain the events that are related to the succession of Muhammad and how it was achieved from the different perspectives. I understand it's not that easy given the delicate nature of the subject but hopefully we can work together in achieving this goal. IMO, the western view is also irrelevent to the purpose of this article. While I do thank the administrators for volunteering their personal time in managing this site, there is too much derailment. As for all of those who are editing this article, please include more citations as your edits only reflect your opinion on the matter.
I understand there are many non-native English speakers here, or maybe there is a reason why this article is entitled as such but Succession TO Muhammad doesn't make sense. Perhaps Succession after Muhammad, or from Muhammad.
Personally, i have something to add in the connection with the sunni view of Ali's hesitance. According to the Sunni view, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:546 is especially notable because Ali does acutally admit that Abu Bakr has some kind of superiority. This website [14], i think, gives a fair good view of the sunni view of the succession. Thank you for reading. God bless you all.
Zora, i created that template for navigation purpose. If you look closely, you will see that pure Sunni view articles like Abu Bakr's prayer linked to it. If there is any section that you feel is missing, then fix it, or tell me so i can fix it for you. --Striver 06:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I hadn't looked at this article for a long time and I was distressed by what I found here. Various Shi'a and Sunni apologists had pasted arguments into the wrong place (inserting Shi'a arguments in the Sunni section, etc.) and presented minority POVs as if they were shared by all Sunni and Shi'a. There was pious language and gross distortions of accepted historical fact. There was a lot of material that wasn't referenced. In the course of the Sunni-Shi'a struggles, the article had become somewhat disorganized and incoherent.
I tried to bring the article back towards NPOV. I still have to tackle Striver's template, which seems to me to present a Shi'a-centric view of the whole issue. He seems also to have started a number of sub-articles that need to be checked for bias. Zora 22:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The article for "Ghadir Khumm" has been tagged as possibly needing cleanup to improve quality SINCE DECEMBER 2005. I can't fix it since I don't know anything about it (that's why I looked it up). Can someone go fix it? I posted this here since I thought maybe this discussion forum got more traffic than the article for Ghadir Khumm and so my message would get noticed sooner.
"The Sunni argue that Ali must have been on good terms with Umar, or he would not have given his daughter in marriage to Umar or given some of his sons by his other wives the names Abu Bakr and Umar." There is no overwhelming evidence to prove this claim. It should be here and left for debate.
"The largest denomination in Islam, the Sunnis..." Surely referring to the size of the Sunni denomination immediately before outlining their basic belief re. the succession of Muhammad is superfluous and counterproductive. Firstly, anyone navigating to this page will probably know that fact (or could easily find it out on a more appropriate page), and secondly it is putting an implicit 'bigger is better' argument in there. I'll leave it up to others to debate it, it just struck me as slightly partisan and not needed. There is another instance of this in 'The Shi'a view to the Succession', with "In the end, however, it was Abu Bakr who assumed control of the Muslim community." Again, already mentioned earlier and gives an implicit tone that Bakr was elected in spite of Ali's obvious supremacy, in a manner that seems POV to me. Sithemadmonkey 15:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
If u'd like to know more on Ghadeer Khumm, here's a great site.http://www.utm.thaqalayn.org/files/ghadeer.pdf
More info on Ghadeer Khumm: http://www.amaana.org/ISWEB/wilayat1.htm http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/
Zahroonia
and I am going to slowly re-write the majority of it. "Umar roamed the streets with his warriors"? Please note that any unsourced POV statements is going to be deleted. Thank you. Unflavoured 05:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that you learn more about history before attempting to "rewrite" the article, a good starting point will be The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung. As for the supposed "unsourced POV statements" in this article, see what the eminent historian has to say about it:
In Medina, Umar took charge of securing the pledge of allegiance of all residents. He dominated the streets with the help first of the Aslam and then the Abd Al-Ashhal of Aws who in contrast to the majority of Khazraj, quickly became vigorous champions of the new regime. The sources mention the actual use of force only with respect to Companion Al- Zubayr who had been together with some others of the Muhajirun in the house of Fatima. Umar threatened to set the house on fire unless they came out and swore allegiance to Abu Bakr"
(Wilferd Madelung, The Succession To Muhammad, p 43, Cambridge University Press)
Cheers --Suhrawardi 05:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Since when has the word Mawla been translated as master? Let us look to the Quran, and see if this translation makes any sense whatsoever:
"...then verily, Allah is his (Muhammad [s]'s) mawla, and Jibreel, and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore the angels are his helpers." - Surat Al Tahreem, Ayah 4
"That is because Allah is the mawla of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no mawla." - Surat Muhammad, Ayah 11
"So this Day no ransom shall be taken from you, nor of those who disbelieved. Your abode is the Fire, That is you mawla, and worst indeed is that destination." - Surat Al Hadeed, Ayah 15
So Allah, Jibreel and the righteous among the believers are our beloved Muhammad [s]'s MASTER? Allah is the MASTER of the believers, but the disbelievers don't have a MASTER? Hell-Fire is the people of the Fire's MASTER?
Check the whole Quran, the word mawla, is never used in the sense of master nor leadership.
This article has substantial neutrality issues wherein the prose appears to side with one particular perspective, especially when depicting the main characters involved in this topic such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali and so on. The section on academic views again is slanted as the coverage fails to represent the diverse views present and instead dwells on the opinion of one particular writer. ITAQALLAH 23:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Please translate:
the translation to be inserted into first citation. Said: Rursus ☻ 05:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I renamed section Notes which contained criticism of the succession concept to Criticism of the succession concept. The concept can be criticised, but then outside sources doing so (religious in accord with the rest of the article) is needed to get the section float. If not, it is a personal comment in the article, and not needed (but please wait for a while...). Said: Rursus ☻ 05:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Somehow this section ends out "proving" that the sunni were perfectly right and Ali a mere manipulative obstructor. I don't believe a shit of that. The section is narrating, but it shouldn't. It should present a context, like the known events (that everybody agrees to, I mean everybody!), and having done that, superficially presenting at least two sequences of events, one claimed by sunni, one claimed by shia (then for fun throw in some more, didn't the Druses have yet another view?), and explaining to the reader what the discussion issues are, not tell us a story disregarding different opinions on the matter. Said: Rursus ☻ 06:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I have edited the first line of this article which read as if the successor was the next Prophet of Islam. We all know that Muhammad (SAW) was the final Prophet. It now reads as if the sucessor took over the Muslim leadership. 78.105.224.176 (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC) AN
Can't the General bay'ah article be just merged into this one? It doesn't have enough content or sources -- Raziman T V's Alternate account (Talk - Contribs) 12:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Who an earth is responsible for the section on Ali coming out with his sword drawn? The reference to Madelung talks of Al-Zubayr coming out with his sword drawn, stumbling and losing it. There is no mention of Ali drawing his sword or being disarmed by Umar and his followers. I'll come back to this in a few days, if anyone else gets the time a correction is in order. Superpie (talk) 21:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I have added a link in sunni books section.
Ibn kathir (talk) 08:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
i have exapnded the external links section to include sunni perspective as well as added some more links.
Ibn kathir (talk) 00:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Seems like the Shia section of Muhammad's illness has a good portion of sunni text material. considering to merge some of the common stuff Nerrf (talk) 07:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Let me say at the beginning that I don't want to cause trouble. Yes, I am a product of the Euro-American civilization, and I am not a Muslim. I have a doctoral degree. I use wikipedia daily and by and large, it's a satisfying read and full of facts. I see a fairly good article here, as far as I can tell (and I don't have any personal knowledge or schooling in this but it seems to me that a lot of basic facts are in dispute, which is fine with me as long as the subject is treated objectively), and then I look at the discussion pages and what do I see? Shia/Sunni catfight! You guys, Zora, Aladdin, and Zereshk and some others are simply reiterating your beliefs instead of discussing the facts, arguing questions of Sunni vs. Shia doctrine, talking about irrelevancies (or so they appear to me) like Qom (the meta-discussion on POV), questions of lineage (including your own), flaming each others' lack of knowledge, absurdities about the lowliest state university library in Arkansas vs. Harvard, and so on and so forth, until I don't know whether to laugh or puke, and I'm only part way down the page. This is not the way discussions are held. As I said earlier, I am not a Muslim, and perhaps that gives me an ability to look at this discussion more objectively, from the outside, as it were. What I see here in microcosm, if you will excuse me for saying it, are the problems that make the Middle East into a perpetual war zone. The discussion pages of articles on other religious faiths do not exhibit the degree or the amount of vituperative pseudo-discussion and insulting condescension that I see here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Christian ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Paganism) THEREFORE I PROPOSE one thing: This article should contain a section, or a sentence at least, that states the obvious fact, that the argument over the Succession to Muhammad, and all the political and doctrinal ramifications of it, is the reason that Shias and Sunnis are bombing and killing each other to this very day. I do not want to add such a sentence. I am looking for consensus. I want the Muslims here to stand back, and look at what they have written here, and perhaps look at their world (original research -- forbidden!), and find sources (which I suspect will come from outside the Muslim culture) and agree with me that this article should mention that fact. And let us have peace. 24.27.25.87 (talk) 21:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC) Eric
There is a Sunni section for Sunni Views and there is a Shia Section for Shia Views - yet many parts of the Sunni sections include disussion of the Shia views - this makes no sense whatsoever - the whole reason for having two different sections is to keep the views of each group to their own sections - thus, when you look at the Shia section, there is no mention or discussion of Sunni views, as it should be. Therefore, i will remove any and all Shia views that are included in the Sunni views section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SearchAllWays (talk • contribs) 17:13, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Succession to Muhammad's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Najeebabadi":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
"In spite of Umar's claim that the necks of all Muslims were stretched out for Abu Bakr, the situation of the caliph was at first highly precarious, and not only because of the ridda of numerous tribes. In Medina Umar took charge of securing the pledge of allegiance of all residents. He dominated the streets with the help of first of the Aslam and then Abd al-Ashhal of Aws who, in contrast to the majority of Khazraj, quickly became vigorous champions of the new regime. The sources mention the actual use of force only with respect to the Companion al-Zubayr who had been together with some others of the Muhajirun in the house of Fatima. Umar threatened to set the house on fire unless they came out and swore allegiance to Abu Bakr. Al-zubayr came out with his sowrd drawn, but stumbled and lost it, whereupon Umar's men jumped upon him and carried him off. There is some evidence that the house of Fatima was searched(futtisha). Ali is reported to have later repeatedly said that had there been forty men with him he would have resisted. To what extent force was used in other cases must remain uncertain. In general the threat of it was probably sufficient to induce the reluctant to conform. Isolated reports about the use of force against Ali and the Banu Hashim who according to al-Zhuri, unanimously refused to swear allegiance for six months are probably to be discounted. Abu Bakr no doubt was wise enough to restrain Umar from any violence against them, well realizing that this would inevitably provoke the sense of solidarity of the majority of Ab Manaf whose acquiescence he needed. His policy was rather to isolate the Banu Hashim as far as possible. Aisha's comment that the prominent people ceased to speak to Ali until acknowledged his mistake and pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr is significant. The banu Hashim thus found themselves in a situation strangely reminiscent of the boycott that the pagan Mekkans organized against them in order to force them to withdraw their protection from Muhammad. This time, however, it was the Muslims putting pressure on them to abandon their support of Ali who in contrast to Muhammad gave in surrendering his claim after the death of Fatima." --Kazemita1 (talk) 02:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Make the intro way shorter.--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
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It seems the entire justification for shia doctrine is sourced to Allameh Tabatabaei, a highly partisan shia scholar. Books by other partisan sources may not be used as sources for quoted Hadiths, because they are unverifiable for an internet encyclopedia. They may, however, be mentioned as "shia references" at the end of the article. Unless you can provide links to neutral scholarly and/or journalistic sources that can verify these hadeeths (both Sunni and Shia), I am deleting them (after hearing Talk responses). Also, I checked out the quranic versus cited in the article, they have nothing at all to do with Ali or the succession; please explain this. Also, please do not create empty section titles. We can use a stub template, and enter the sections when we actually have information to put in them. --AladdinSE 03:15, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
You dont set the rules here. And you cannot and will not unilaterally erase whatever I write.
I am far more knowledgeable about Shi'a beliefs than you are. As you said, you are not even muslim. You do not know what we believe in.
Your remarks and edits are so erroneous, so wrong, and so off the mark that I dont know where to begin with.
Now listen closely. Zora, this is for you too. Here's your chance to learn about the Shi'a:
Zereshk, you're shooting yourself in the foot here, because Qom is simply not a credible source for impartial scholarship. A valid source for Shi'a opinion, yes, just as the Vatican is a valid source for Roman Catholic opinion, just as al-Azhar is a valid source for Sunni opinion.
But let's not delete all of the Shi'a sources. We probably should delete SOME, and keep only the best, but we'll get to that later. It's early days yet. I'll add a section of academic sources when I have time. Sheesh, you guys are so impatient. Zora 06:53, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with usenet so I can't reply to that comment, but as for indentation, as you can see I generally don't indent beyond the previous editor's post, I let it alternate between a regular post followed by an indented post then a regular post and so on. Section titles, followed by numerous dividers and page breaks, are much more of a pain than that. You don't agree? --AladdinSE 12:38, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and BTW, Did I tell you that my great grandfather, Grand Ayatollah Shirazi, also endorsed Tabatabei? I uploaded this picture just for you. :)
--Zereshk 08:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK. Here's one more try.
Here's what you fail to grasp, my incredibly un-knowledgable AladdinSE:
We werent talking about whether or not Qom is "ill-qualified to be neutral on the issue of the Succession to Muhammad". We were talking about whether or not Qom is qualified to present the ***Shi'a view*** on the Succession of Mohammad. (Which it 200% certainly is). If that were not the case, we wouldnt be putting different sections for Sunni and Shi'a views on the Succession to Muhammad page.
Remember, you have been entirely deleting stuff out of sections devoted to "Shi'a viewpoints". You can hardly talk about 'neutrality' there, because The Shi'a viewpoint is biased as opposed to the Sunni, naturally. That's why we separated them in the first place.
But you have been repeatedly deleting the central beliefs of Shi'as....in "The Shi'a viewpoint" sections....on pages about or directly related to Shi'as....that are quoted by Shi'a's top scholars. That is the epitome of sheer arrogance. Specially from someone who says he's not even a muslim.--Zereshk 13:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, you seem to be confusing "editing your presentation" with disrespect to the Shi'a. You can have impeccably Shi'a views but still have less-than-perfect skill at setting out your ideas in a way that actually communicates with and informs others -- which is the PURPOSE of what we're doing here. This is an encyclopedia, knowledge lite. It's a collection of introductions to various subjects, along with links and references that allow those who are interested to explore further. The articles have to be accessible to the general reader. Your huge lumps of hadith references aren't. It's not disrespect to the Shi'a to point that out. Zora 18:11, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with Aladdin's insistence on hyperlinked cites. Books can and should be used as references here (see Wikipedia:Cite_sources#Books; if anything, I'd be more tempted to ban the use of Internet pages as sources!) and are verifiable by simply finding a good library. However, partisan sources should be marked appropriately: if a hadith is accepted by Shia and not by Sunnis (or vice versa), it should be described as such, not simply as what "the prophet says". - Mustafaa 18:36, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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I know what I said, and you seem to be deliberately persisting in obtuseness. What can you mean by saying you are "holding me responsible for my own words"??? All I said was that you do not know what I am, you have no right to assume, nor should you be interested, that I am Sunni, Shia, or even Muslim, because that information is 1. none of your business and 2. utterly irrelevant. I most certainly did not blank out your every word based on any agenda. This is your main problem: everything to you is a contest of wills and a personal quarrel. You cannot conceive that other editors might delete stuff without actually being anti-Shia or anti-Zereshk. As for you, you have made your pro-Shia bias abundandtly clear, even go so far as to boast of your family connections. Well, that has no import whatsoever in Wikipedia. About references and links: books of course can be used as references, and as I clearly said, what is objectionable is huge verbatim extracts that have no place in an encyclopedia. Editors have to condense such material into article form with reasonable quotations. Look at any encyclopedia... do you see a huge listings of verbatim Hadiths or similar text just splayed out with no editorial comment? Of course not! There has to be condensation with reasonable and limited quotation. What you did was just dump huge extracts with no form or style whatsoever. As for hyper-links, they are essential in an internet encyclopedia not as replacements for "book references", but as sources of journalistic or scholarly comment that provides a source for legitimacy of the authors being quoted as well as preventing original research. For example, you provide no linked sources that verify that so and so Shia scholars claim that so and so Hadiths prove so and so claims. Finally, would you please stop inserting unnecessary pictures into Talk comments this section is already becoming unwieldy. --AladdinSE 23:38, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
There is clearly no civilized discussion to be had with you. All you have to say is I'll do as I wish and all you see is personalized conflicts and your will prevailing over all. You confuse condensation with mere limitation of sources. Condensation means you take material from sources and reformat it into narrative form, as opposed to just dumping huge verbatim extracts into the article. As for providing "Sunni documentation," have you ever thought about doing that yourself? Has the idea of being a neutral contributor even crossed your mind ONCE? All you can do is cut and paste huge expanses of Shia text and point and brag about your grandfather and put up pictures of him (in TALK for heaven's sake), but you have not inserted one syllable of cognitive, descriptive narrative that makes any of it readable or relevant. I'll leave our styles of writing for the world to judge. Determining which is the eyesore, both in the article and in Talk, I'm confident will be consistent. --AladdinSE 08:35, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
References
Much of the referenced material is from Wilferd Madelung from the Institute for Ismaili Studies in London who is on the pay roll of Aga Khan who thinks it is his god given right to rule because he is Alis descendent. They are biased references.
Verses from the Quran like Verse 33:30 to 33:33 which referes to Muhamands wives are twisted. They even say "O wives of the Prophet..."
There are also many different versions of these hadith. You could twist them to suit your own interests.
According to the Muwatta[1] by Malik ibn Anas, the oldest book in Islam after the Quran.
“ | " 46.3 Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have left two things with you. As long as you hold fast to them, you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet.". | ” |
In the years proceeding Muhammad, Imam Jafar al-Sadiq whose views most Shias follow and Imam Abu Hanifa and Malik ibn Anas whose views most Sunnis follow worked together in Al-Masjid an-Nabawi in Medina. Along with Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr, Muhammad al-Baqir, Zayd ibn Ali and over 70 other leading jurists and scholars[3][4][5] [6][7][8]. These scholars were taught by Muhammads companions, many of whom settled in Madina. Muwatta[1] by Malik ibn Anas was written as a consensus of the opinion, of these scholars.[9][10][11] The Muwatta[1] by Malik ibn Anas quotes 13 hadiths from Imam Jafar al-Sadiq.[12]
There are also other versions of this Hadith that say:
“ | "I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.. | ” |
For this reason Muslims regard the Quran as the most authentic book in Islam. Many of the other books were written between 100 and 300 years after Muhammad. There had been oral transmission from generation to generation until then. Muwatta[1] by Malik ibn Anas is the earliest of these books.
The Quran is earliest and the most authentic book in Islam.
The Quran is accepted as the most authentic book in Islam and therefore any other book or text that contradicts with the Quran is not accepted as the truth. All the other books were written decades and in most cases centuries after Muhammad.
Quran, Surat Al-Hujurat [49:13]:[13]
“ | "O mankind, indeed I have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted"
[14]. |
” |
It appears that according to the Quran, no race is above another race. Racial inequality is not acceptable according to the Quran.
Everyone is a creation of God and the most noble of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you.
Therefore, if an off spring of Ali is sinful, some one who is not an off spring of Ali but less sinful is more noble in the sight of God.
There appears to be no concept of the chosen people in the Quran.
On the day of judgment there also appears to be no racial inequality :
“ | "So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it (Quran 99:7)". | ” |
“ | And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it (Quran 99:8)". | ” |
References
Kazemita1 what is the point of removing the views of Western scholars from this page. You recently removed the text below:
Modern Western scholars are much less likely than Sunni Islamic scholars to trust the work of the Abbasid historians. Western historians approach the classic Islamic histories with varying degrees of circumspection.
In The Great Arab Conquests, Hugh Kennedy writes: [1] "A characteristic of these anecdotes is what has been described as onomatomania, the obsession with knowing the names of the participants involved in events. The problem for the historians is that these lists frequently contradict each other. Furthermore, there are some examples in which later versions of a story seem to have access to more names than earlier ones do. This is deeply suspicious for modern historical sensibilities. In some cases the names are clearly preserved by the descendants and fellow tribesmen of the participants. In the seventh century it was a matter of considerable practical importance. If your father or grandfather had participated in those first glorious battles, Qudisiya in Iraq or Yarmuk in Syria, you benefited in both money and status. By the mid eighth century these relationships had largely lost their practical value. No one, except the members of the ruling family and sometimes the descendants of the Prophet or Ali, continued to benefit from this system."[2]
You also removed other text on these events by Western scholars like: In The Great Arab Conquests, Hugh Kennedy writes: [3]
<Long verbatim quote from copyright work removed. Our copyright policy proscribes such quotations on talkpages too, as far as I know. I'm not crazy about the shorter quote above, either. Bishonen | talk 15:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC).> [4]
The quotes were given and the authors name was also give. This page is already full of references from Wilferd Madelung from the Institute for Ismaili Studies in London who is on the pay roll of Aga Khan. Then you removed referenced material from early Shia books when this page is already full of other primary sources. May be we need to remove all the content, from biased Muslim sources and show what it is all about as Hugh Kennedy puts it "This is deeply suspicious for modern historical sensibilities. In some cases the names are clearly preserved by the descendants and fellow tribesmen of the participants. In the seventh century it was a matter of considerable practical importance. If your father or grandfather had participated in those first glorious battles, Qudisiya in Iraq or Yarmuk in Syria, you benefited in both money and status. By the mid eighth century these relationships had largely lost their practical value. No one, except the members of the ruling family and sometimes the descendants of the Prophet or Ali, continued to benefit from this system"
May be this whole page needs to be rewritten. This page reads as if Muhammad created Islam to make sure that his descendants could rule. Where as it appears to say nothing like that in the Quran or any of the early books. Both early Sunni and Shia books say Ali was a humble human being. Kazemita1 you even removed Shia texts that shows Ali was a humble human being. You even removed:
According to early Shia books Ali later wrote in a letter "I did not approach the people to get their oath of allegiance but they came to me with their desire to make me their Amir (ruler). I did not extend my hands towards them so that they might swear the oath of allegiance to me but they themselves extended their hands towards me".[5]
Hassans main negotiator when he was negotiating with Muawiya said Muhammad once told him "if a man wants to rule and becomes a ruler, Allah judges him, if a man is asked by other to rule, Allah helps him" It looks like that is how both Ali and Hassan behaved. They appeared to be honest, god fearing, humble human beings. They looked at the big picture. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Anyway lets move on to improving this page. The Succession to Muhammad page is very confusing to the average reader. We need to improve the page so that it contain researched scholarly content, that is useful to the reader. It will be good if there is a critical analysis of what has been said regarding this subject. Various books have been written, on this subject, through out the ages and this content needs to be put into a table, so that people could compare, what was said when and by whom and why and how the ideas evolved. Additionally there needs to be analysis of why there is disagreement and who benefits and why. It will be good if everyone gets together and improves the Succession to Muhammad page so that an average reader could see what is going on. People need to have an open mind and look at everything. It will be good to include time lines, showing how the peoples opinions changed over time and what was said by whom and why and how they benefited. As people have said in the past, it may even require a re-write, where everyone takes part and presents their evidence and presents their references and hopefully we could improve the article. First we need to collect as much material as possible, from all the sources, including early non Muslim sources. The Roman chroniclers also took notes on these events, during their time and their material could also be analyzed. Then we need to go through everything in detail. The administrators need to be involved in this process, so that we take a scholarly approach. Every one needs to be involved. It could take a long time, but we will need a lot of time to carry out detailed research into a subject as complex as this. One of the complexities we will face is that many of the books that have references to these events were written 100 to 300 years after these events and the opinions changed over time. There was oral transmission until these things were written down and therefore the transmission of this information was subject to distortion over time. Even slight distortions could amplify overtime and result in a huge divergence of opinions centuries later. This is evident if you consider that at that time Ali and Abu Bakr did not fight, over this subject, yet 1400 years later there is bloodshed in the streets of Syria. Innocent kids are dying. All too often many Muslims look at this subject from a modern Sunni or a modern Shia perspective and mindset and try to take what they like and ignore what they do not like. But we need to look at all this rationally and critically. Therefore critical analysis needs to be carried out of all the material. We need to look at the whole picture, the environment, the society and the various interest groups and tribe who lived at that time. We also need to look at the various interest groups and tribes later that wrote down these events and opinions. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
To stabilize this page and reduce future arguments, it will be good to look at the common ground first. We need to have solid foundations to build a professional article on. Therefore the best way to improve this page will be to start off with what most people agree to be historically accurate, that:
Historians agree that Muhammad, Abu Bakr and Ali lived at the same time in Makkah, then moved to Madina.
Historians agree that Ali was Married to Muhammad's daughter
Historians agree that Muhammad was married to Abu Bakr's daughter
Both Ali and Abu Bakr helped Muhammad
The early Muslim community under Muhammad greatly helped the poor and paid for slaves to be freed and Abu Bakr also assisted Muhammad with this.
Abu Bakr was an old man when Muhammad passed away and both early Sunni and Shia books state that Ali then raised Abu Bakr's son Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr when Abu Bakr passed away. Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr later became Ali's general [6].
Both early Sunni and Shia books state that Ali was the chief judge and jurist and a senior member of the Muslim high command and the ruling committee in Madina during the time of Abu Bakr and Umar and worked with them to continue Muhammad's policy of spreading the belief in one God, monotheism after Muhammad passed away.
Historians agree that Abu Bakr grandson Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr and Ali's son Hussein both fought against Yazid.
Both early Sunni and Shia books state that members of Ali's and Abu Bakr's families intermarried [7].
Muslims believe that there is one God
Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God and respect the Quran and believe it to be more superior than any other book.
Muslim believe is Predestination, i.e. that "nothing will happen to us except what God has decreed for us"
Muslim believe that God is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing and that every thing that happens, could only happen if God allows it to happen.
Muslim believe that Muhammad is the last messenger of God
The Sunnis and the Shias both respect Ali, Fitima, Hassan and Hussein but feel that they are NOT prophets and are NOT Gods i.e. they are NOT divine. Both the Sunnis and the Shias believe that there is only one God.
If you disagree with any of this, just let me know, we could change it. Or if you want to add anything else that will help to improve this article just highlight it. There will be some minority sects that may not agree with some of these points. Some may have some additional beliefs but we don't want to presume things.
There is in fact a lot of common material on top of this.
The Quran also talks about these things: Quran 6:159 : Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.
Ali was aware of this. There are many common speeches of Ali in both Sunni and Shia books against sectarianism. The most striking of these is this one found in both early Sunni and Shia books: In which Ali says: "With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine."[8]
Ali had gone through all this during his life time too. The khawarij, the first sect in Islam, first loved him too much and elevated his status to the extremes. Then hated him too much and fought against him.
Once we have a solid foundation, we could build an enduring clear and professional article.
Clearly there are differences too, but if you look at everything collectively, the differences are minor and are promoted to cause conflict by a vocal minority. Once the article has a solid foundation, then we could go into the differences and show the history and the reasoning behind those. And there is a lot of history, interest groups, politics, money, taxes, tax revenues, power, a substantial pre-Islamic middle eastern history as a back ground. Many of the conflicts in the middle east predate Islam and even through Islam spread into those areas, the people still had a history of conflict. There were also the Roman–Persian Wars running for over 700 years until the Muslims defeated both the Romans and the Persians, but the people in those areas still hated one another. There were also cultural resistance movements in some places against Islam and some of that literature eventually found it self into Muslim history books too. I am sure we could build a good article that everyone will find useful, if we all work together --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I sited the above references just to show the common ground and lay the foundations to build a good article. It will take time to collect all the sources and build an enduring professional article. Kazemita1 I appreciate your comments. It will be good if every one works together on Wikipedia to improve the articles. It will be good if everyone keeps an open mind and looks at everything. Many Muslims appear to say that Islam means peace. Yet on this page, not much of that has been displayed. I worked on similar articles before and came across the logic that Hassan employed when he made peace. He was not power hungry, he wanted to save lives and he was peace loving and merciful. He did not like conflict. No one could say he was power hungry. Some people may criticize him for making peace, but he knew what he was doing. He is regarded as a great peace maker. I came across this in the Book of "Peacemaking" in Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 49 (Peacemaking), Number 867
Narrated by Al-Hasan Al-Basri
By Allah, Al-Hasan bin Ali led large battalions like mountains against Muawiyah I. Amr bin Al-As said (to Muawiya), "I surely see battalions which will not turn back before killing their opponents." Muawiya who was really the best of the two men said to him, "O 'Amr! If these killed those and those killed these, who would be left with me for the jobs of the public, who would be left with me for their women, who would be left with me for their children?" Then Muawiyah Isent two Quraishi men from the tribe of 'Abd-i-Shams called 'Abdur Rahman bin Sumura and Abdullah bin 'Amir bin Kuraiz to Al-Hasan saying to them, "Go to Al-Hasan and negotiate peace with him and talk and appeal to him." So, they went to Al-Hasan and talked and appealed to him to accept peace. Al-Hasan said, "We, the offspring of 'Abdul Muttalib, have got wealth and people have indulged in killing and corruption" They said to Al-Hasan, "Muawiya offers you so and so, and appeals to you and entreats you to accept peace." Al-Hasan said to them, "But who will be responsible for what you have said?" They said, "We will be responsible for it." So, what-ever Al-Hasan asked they said, "We will be responsible for it for you." So, Al-Hasan concluded a peace treaty with Muawiya. Al-Hasan (Al-Basri) said: I heard Abu Bakr saying, "I saw Allah's Apostle on the pulpit and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was by his side. The Prophet was looking once at the people and once at Al-Hasan bin 'Ali saying, 'This grandson of mine is noble and may Allah make peace between two big groups of Muslims through him."[9]
The year the peace treaty was signed, became know as "Aam ul-Jama ah". The year of the community.
This brought to an end the conflict that ran for over 700 years. The Syrians under the Romans and the Iraqis under the Persians had been fighting each other for over 700 year by then, in the Roman–Persian Wars and the Syrians and the Iraqis had so much hatred for one another that the conflict carried on even after the Muslims took. Later Muawiyah I ruled Syria and Hassan Iraq. It was finally brought to an end by this peace treaty.
So welcome was the peace that Hassan established that the Nestorian Christian, John bar Penkaye writing in the 690s, has nothing but praise for the peace that prevailed after this peace treaty he says 'the peace throughout the world was such that we have never heard, either from our fathers or from our grandparents, or seen that there had ever been any like it'" [10]
After the peace treaty with Muawiyah, Ibn Shawdhab is reported to have said that "Hassan hated to fight. his supporters would say to him "O Dishonour of the Believers!" So Hassan would reply to them "Dishonour is better than Hel-fire.".[11]
May be this article needs some peace too :) --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
--Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
One of the main events listed in this article is the event that occurred in Ghadir Khumm, a location 250 km North of Mecca. I don't know if other people have also looking at the various books on these events, but they appear to say that this incident is linked to an incident that occurred in Yemen, involving Ali a month earlier. There was a battle in Yemen. The various books appear to say that Ali's men complained against Ali. By the time they got to Ghadir Khumm his men again complained against Ali and the texts say that Muhammad tried to defuse the conflict between Ali and his men at Ghadir Khumm. Both the early Sunni and Shia books appear to recount the events in Yemen and the men's complaints against Ali at Ghadir Khumm.
Shia books: Kitab al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, pp.111-122
Sunni books:
Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Book 59 Number 637
Has anyone else come across this. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
For example in this article, Musnad is given as a reference for the events at Ghadir Khumm. But if you look at the full text in these books, they refer to an incident in Yemen involving Ali and a slave-girl. So if references like these are used, then they should be used in accordance with the Wikipedia policy on the use of references and include the full story not just half of the story. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
That's right John. In taking to account the events at Ghadeer Khumm and the supposed succession of Ali' sunnis would tend to point out that statments of praise were issued as a response to this, as you yourself have discovered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibn Fulaan (talk • contribs) 01:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
References
I started working on this page a few years ago and then stopped because there were a lot of contradictions in the various texts. And a lot of politics. So I have been digging around. It will be good to look at this article again and try to improve it. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
The difference between the various sects in Islam are predominantly political over who has the right the rule. Various dynasties sponsored the writing of books to justify their right to rule.
The Abassid did a lot of this. They felt that they had the right to rule because they were related to Muhammad. Then the fatamids also did this.
Many stories appeared in the early books like The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi and books like Sirat Ibn Hisham and then later appear again in later books but the stories change and incorporate more politics.
I put the diagram below on the Fiqh page a few years ago. People could use this to find books and then compare them.
Books written by Arabs in Madina a few years after Muhammad are less political, than books written by Persians a few centuries later.
To illustrate this I will show you some text about the events on this page, relating to what happened in Yemen and in Ghadir Khumm.
A book written by a Persian a few centuries later about events in Yemen and then when they meet Muhammad, in what is now Saudi Arabia, :
Muhammad al-Bukhari (810-870) Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5-#637 Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus ([one fifth] of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him......
The text after that comes in different forms depending on who wrote the book and when.
This is mentioned in both later Shia and Sunni books predominantly written by Persians including Al Tabri and in Shia books like Kitab Al Irshad (Iran at the time was predominantly Sunni, many Sunni authors are Persian)
The story goes on from Yemen to Ghadir Khumm where Alis men take on Ali when he stops them wearing the cloths that were presumably part of the Khumus and Muhammad steps in to stop them from attacking Ali.
https://hajarmulder.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-hadith-of-ghadir-khumm/
Many Shia use this to say that Ali should have succeeded Muhammad. Many websites talk about this like http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234931442-imam-ali-and-slave-girls/
Christian Missionaries also use this against the Muslims.
But a quick careful analysis of this shows how the story changes over time.
Al-Waqidi (748 – 822) from Madina
The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi By Rizwi Faizer page 528 talks about the expedition of Ali ibn abi talib to yemen. but it says that the cloths were given by people in Yemen as charity (Sadaqa not Khumus) and when the men wore them Ali objected. There is no mention of a slave girl. Meaning that the later sunni and shia writtings are politically motivated.
Books like The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi's Kitab Al-Maghazi and Sirat Ibn Hisham, written by there early Arab historians do not mention the slave girl or the appointment of Ali as the next caliph after Muhammad.
In fact Sirat Ibn Hisham is the total opposite. It talks about how caring and good natured Ali is and how he helped girls that were prisoners of War and sends them to their families. Sirat Ibn Hisham, biography of the prophet, abridged by: Abdus-Salam M. Harun page 258 is one of the earliest books. It talks about how a Christian land lord, Adiyy ibn Hatim used to heavily tax people. Then he went to join the Romans in Syria to fight against the Muslims. One of the Women in his group the daughter of Hatim was left behind at Al Jawshiyyah. The Muslims Army came across her and took her to Madina where Ali and Muhammad found a reliable person to take her on a caravan to Syria back to Sirat Ibn Hisham and paid for her expenses and her cloths. Later Sirat Ibn Hisham came to Muhammad and became a Muslim and felt ashamed that he heavily taxed the people.
There is a lot of politics in this, its also about money.
You need to ask your self who benefits from these later stories.
These days the term Khumus or Khums is used by the clerics who claims to be Syeds or descendants of Ali in Iran to get people to give them money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums
talks about
In 13th century Shia region, the khums was divided into two portions. One portion went to the descendants of Muhammad, the other portion was divided equally and one part given to Imam and clergy, while the other part went to the orphaned and poor Muslims. Khums became a major source of income and financial independence of the clergy in Shia regions. This practice has continued among Shia Muslims.
Clearly this was not war booty, it was paid by normal people.
The earlier books talk about even Mohammad asking people to choose if they wished him to lead the early Muslim community. There is a concept of baya where people freely gave their oath of allegiance. Even Khalid Bin Walid a General appears to have been elected to lead the Muslim army while they were loosing in a battle.
There appears to be a concept of not forcing people to accept them as rulers.
Even letters presumably by Ali in Shia books like Najal Blaga they say Ali did not take power, it was thrust upon him http://www.najaf.org/english/book/12/36.htm
Sir William Muir (1819-1905) mentions, Ali was
“Endowed with a clear intellect, warm in affection, and confiding in friendship, he was from the boyhood devoted heart and soul to the Prophet. Simple, quiet, and un-ambitious, when in after days he obtained the rule of half of the Moslem world, it was rather thrust upon him than sought.[11]([11] The Life of Mahomet, London, 1877, p. 250)
The division after prophet muhammed by Hassan A nahim Page 20 [19]
Hassan gave up power.
There is a recurring theme where people say Muhammad told them that if power is thrust upon them and they rule, Allah helps them, but if they desire to rule and attain power Allah judges them.
In various books like Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz by Imam Abu Muhammad Abdullah ibn Abdul Hakam (written in 829) it says When Omayyad Emir Sulaiman (714-717) lay on his death bed, he was advised that he could earn the pleasure of God by nominating someone who will be good for the people and not his own son. So he appointed Omar bin Abdul Aziz. When news reached him of his nomination to the Caliphate, Omar addressed the people, “O people! The responsibilities of the Caliphate have been thrust upon me without my desire or your consent. If you choose to select someone else as the Caliph, I will immediately step aside and will support your decision”. The people asked him to stay on.
Islam in Global History: volume one: from the death of prophet Muhammad to the first world war by Dr Nazeer Ahmed [20]
http://historyofislam.com/contents/the-age-of-faith/omar-bin-abdul-aziz/
You see this reoccurring in other societies too.
In the eighteenth century in the US it was expected that power be thrust upon people than sought. In the book Contested Commonwealths: Essay in American History By William Pencak page 251 it says:
"Washington's concern that office be thrust upon him rather than sought, and exercised without financial benefit for the good of his reputation, may appear strange to those who study him two centuries after his death. But had he acted otherwise he would have violated the norms of eighteeth century political life."
The Libery Group By Eric Myerholtz Page 151
--Johnleeds1 (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
|
((Islam scholars diagram))
. Now then, could you please state in max five sentences, what it is that you want to change in this article, because the long post above does not make it any clearer. - HyperGaruda (talk) 05:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Another early historian Al-Baladhuri (278-279 AH/892 CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baladhuri
A Persian but generally more neutral also talks about Yemen.
In this translation of this book:
The origins of the Islamic state, being a translation from the Arabic, accompanied with annotations, geographic and historic notes of the Kitab futuh al-buldan of al-Imam abu-l Abbas Ahmad ibn-Jabir al-Baladhuri by Baladhuri, AhĐmad ibn YahĐya, d. 892; Hitti, Philip Khuri, 1886-
The translation published in 1916 https://archive.org/stream/originsislamics00hittgoog#page/n122/mode/2up
It also talks about the people of Yemen becoming Muslim via peaceful means. No mention of Ali or the slave girl, khums or Ghadir Khumm here too.
Many Western Academics use these early history books by Al-Baladhuri, Al-Waqidi and Ibn Hisham (and ibn Ishaq [22]). --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:58, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
References