This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sexual dimorphism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Enteryourcleverusername.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Jenniehorstmann.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for restoring this article. I have added a few examples off the top of my head to be helpful to anyone who checks this article for information. I will add more information later.
Patrick0Moran 15:40, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the following bit.
This seems to be too broad. I can think of half a dozen counterexamples in Spanish and Italian off the top of my head. Furthermore it doesn't have much to do with the main thrust of the article. Unless anyone comments, I'll remove it. Theanthrope 20:54, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
(In grammatically gender-sensititve languages, the grammatical gender of the animal species name besides humans indicates the larger gender of that species. Therefore, the animal species name is grammatically feminine if the female is larger than the male, and vice versa.) I agree, it's simply irrelevant to the biological article unless it were a fairly reliable guide to relative animal sizes and I agree with you it probably isnt. We'll park the statement here if the original author wants to defend it.alteripse 21:45, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The wording of the caption for the picture of the pheasants should be changed to reduce redundancy. I think “large degree of sexual dimorphism between the sexes” should be changed to something like “large degree of sexual dimorphism” or “dramatic difference in form between the sexes”. —Chris Capoccia 18:11, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
I think one would have to be socially retarded to not realize that the human on the left is male and the human on the right is female. Sour pickle 04:58, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised there isn't a picture of a black widow spider male and female in this article. --AnYoNe! 22:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Your talking about all humans. What I have seen in some races is sexual dimorphism that is extremely pronounced. Indian men in the north of India are much larger and heavier than Indian women. Show me a population of Indian women that are 6'. Most of them are only 5' and slender. So what I'm saying is that sexual dimorphism in humans varies between races. ==Human sex ual dimorphism==
"Homo sapiens has a high level of sexual dimorphism in general." "The low level of sexual dimorphism in humans is said to correlate to the human species' high degree of paternal investment." Methinks this is hard to grok. So what is it? "High level" or "low level"? I have definitely read both views. I think Britannica says social mammals (like humans) generally have high levels of sexual dimorphism, including behavioural dimorphism. I'm a bit suss about the parental investment argument tho, 'cause it's almost circular -- if one parent invests more, voila!, you got sexual dimorphic behaviour already! Can anyone give me a source for each opinion? Then I can go check 'em and make up my own mind. Live long and prosper. V Alastair Haines 11:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the part, that women can withstand cold better then men becouse of more subcutaneous fat should be removed until someone has found a good source for that. Maybe the better insulation is only a compensation, because women baturally have a slimmer body, which leads to a higher surface/volume ratio, which increases the ratio between lost thermal energy and body weight. --Qaywsxedc (talk) 17:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Either the definition of sexual dimorphism at the top of the article is incorrect, or (much more likely I believe) many if not most of the examples mentioned in the Human sexual dimorphism section (gonadal, hormonal differences, etc) are not really sexual dimorphism. Here's one source... http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/ridley/a-z/Sexual_dimorphism.asp that defines sex. dimorph. as "existence of physical differences between the sexes, other than differences in the sex organs." That definition doesn't specify "external" like the current wikipedia does. I would think that external *is* be important if the term is used primarily with regard to Darwinian sexual selection (i.e., I prefer the definition at the top of the page here, although I'm not an expert.) Is anyone (perhaps with more credential than me on the topic) up for hacking out the stuff that doesn't fit. I think this would also help with the "high" vs. "low" dimorphism question below, settling it on the low side if I'm correct.
sbump (talk) 17:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I think there could be a lot more information on differing points that deal with modern views of dimorphism. For example, Christine Gudors research could be added to aid in understanding more. Enteryourcleverusername (talk) 06:33, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Could we have human dimorphism be a whole separate page? I feel like this information is growing, and could easily be expanded so that it's not just a topic, but it could be a link to its own specific page. Enteryourcleverusername (talk) 06:34, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
The page on Cheistine Gudorf is only available in German, how can we make a page in English so we could direct people looking for more information to her research on the topic? Enteryourcleverusername (talk) 06:35, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Flyer22 Reborn, in response to your question - I am editing the page for a class assignment. Sorry, I didn't realize the two articles were connected. And I forgot about the sourcing, whoops. I will keep all in mind. Thanks. (whole editing and talking process a bit confusing/daunting) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enteryourcleverusername (talk • contribs) 21:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Under the header Uncertainty, the following is found:
in birds larger size of males is explained by preference in the struggle for female and larger size of females—by advantage of laying large eggs. But it is unclear why in the first case no large eggs and in the second no struggle for female are needed.
What is unclear? Both the male and the female are larger than they would have been if it wasn't for the factors mentioned. The difference in size is simply the difference in to which DEGREE the factors are essential. Read The Origin of Species and you'll see that traits are advantageous in a relative sense and not an absolute one, as if there were a standard size which either the male or female deviated from. Mikael Häggström 10:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Treating the general phenomenon of sexual dimorphism as a consequence of narrow mechanism of sexual selection created many problems. It was hard to explain sexual dimorphism for characters, which with great difficulty can be related to sexual selection (e.g., leaf number and shape, branching pattern in plants). Interpretation of the same phenomenon needed different logics. For example, in birds larger size of males is explained by preference in the struggle for female and larger size of females—by advantage of laying large eggs. But it is unclear why in the first case no large eggs and in the second no struggle for female are needed. It is still difficult for the theory to explain large size of females in some mammals (bats, rabbits, flying squirrels, spotted hyenas, dwarf mongooses, some whales and seals), existence of marked sexual dimorphism in monogamic species with sex ratio 1:1, and the dependence of sexual dimorphism on the reproductive structure of the population.[1]
This headings like "examples", "explaination" etc are textbooklike. But encyclopedia is about "presenting facts", not "teach subject". See WP:NOT. Thanks. Meets are hoped (talk) 06:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
There're five images in the article(without counting the one about human's sexual dimorphism) 4 of birds and one of fishes, wouldn't it be okey to add one of insects or mammals, I think we have enough of birds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.175.172.15 (talk) 04:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Curiously this article is blocked at my university (can't have us biology postgraduates reading any article about sex), but checking this for the first time outside of uni I notice that it is missing niche separation as a cause of sexual dimorphism. At least in birds it is the more important cause of size differences. [1] for an example (lots more come up on on google scholar). Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
That's also getting on my nerves. There's a lot of focus on passerines and game bird sex dimorphism, but very little on the fairly dramatic dimorphism birds of prey have. Falcons often have size skewed towards females, with many being a 1/3 larger than their mates. Generally, it's more so that females can take larger prey and the males smaller so that one prey group isn't too heavily hunted. That section could really use expansion, and be less general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.162.195 (talk) 04:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I noticed this more specific article a couple of days ago, but is there really any need for it? This article isn't excessively long, and SSD is excessively short. It has some potential, but it has been poorly integrated into the network of articles - for example this article should obviously link to it (probably using summary style) and it should link back here (which it doesn't). Unless there is so much on SSD that it makes this article too long or biased towards size differences, I think the best option is to merge it here. Richard001 (talk) 22:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Men are 34% stronger in the lower body. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683 Someone please correct it. --- dnx-x1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnx-x1 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
In a control group of 8 men and 8 women. How robust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akaner (talk • contribs) 17:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
It says that the male anglerfish is a parsite. The definition of parasite:Parasite states that the victim has only harm, but in this case, the "victim" has unlimited amounts of semen for the eggs. Therefore, the male anglerfish isn't a parsite, they're living in symbiosis. Someone correct the picture and reupp it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.250.11.107 (talk) 15:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
"the proposed evolutionary force" is totally overstated. Though popular, the handicap principle (actually, "handicap hypothesis" is becoming more popular among scientists in recent years) seems to apply in far fewer cases than generally assumed. For peacocks, I think it has never been proven (given they are Phasianidae, among which some sort of ornamental plumage is widespread, an "unhandicapped" male would have zero fitness!). As typical of mid-20th century ethology, this is just another "intuitive" explanation with meager empirical support.
There are probably almost as many causes as there are different sorts of sexual dimporphism, dichromatism, size dimorphism etc. Reverse size dimorphism in predatory birds is simply competition-avoidance (this has been extensively proven). Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
From the article: Pheromonal studies also have added to the scientific knowledge of sexuality, according to Dr. Goldstein. "Sex-atypical connections were found among homosexual participants. Amygdala connectivity differences were found to be statistically significant and provided evidence towards sexual dimorphism between heterosexual and homosexual subjects. " [1] I am confused by this usage of the phrase "sexual dimorphism". Does this suggest that the meaning can be extended to members of the same gender who have different sexual preferences? If so, should wikipedia reflect that? 97.94.199.170 (talk) 16:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
((cite web))
: Missing or empty |title=
(help)
I'm concerned about including the anecdotes of someone who specializes in insects on human sexual dimorphism. As there really isn't a genetic basis for the differentiation of race, the unsubstantiated comments in the "Race and sexual dimorphism" section come off more as hearsay than actual fact. It contains outdated terminology, and half of the section gets its information from the opinions of an unqualified expert. I think the section should just be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.191.40.174 (talk) 09:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
sexual dimorphism is a very understood part of living creatures differences. Yet in human evolvement of the thinking mind it becomes less inclined to provide basic evaluations of whats to be concrete and unquestionable while human thought has provided outlets to creative dimorphism within intellectual creativity and human inclinations.Maybe earlier hominids were more in tune to earthly survivals through instinctual strenght. While modern mans social and earth shattering thinking mind has reigned dominance.Is the crossbreeding of humans with differing skin color or facial details a change from mono polydimorphism within a group that maintains its genetic pool and suddenly that new divergence now extends gene pool diversity within the offspring.Since homo sapiens sapiens are all thinking oriented people regardless of the genetic variances within our appearances due to our inheriting the genes from our parents now creating a new gene pool of traits passed from each others ancestors. Are all humans evolved from a common ancestor or from divergent ones that have survived but evolved to distinguish the gene pool we have. Basically the human mind trancends the simple mental state of their nature that primitive man or woman encompassed but with a strong will to survive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nabjeski (talk • contribs) 00:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
"Dichromatism is where a sex of a given species is more than one color including that of saturated, vibrant hues."
For the life of me I can't work out what the author of that sentence was trying to convey. Also, it (Dichromatism) seems to have no logical connection to the preceding sentences, the paragraph, or the article.
Aaah. Such is Wikipedia... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.209.12 (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
someone fix this badly written article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.106.44.60 (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
In the evolution section, someone posted a statement more or less to the effect that anisogamy was the basis of, or otherwise relevant to, sexual dimorphism. I was about to revert it, but decided that it would be better to refute it in case it emerged again. I stuck in a few refs and links in support. (Just mentioning this in case you thought it was my idea!) JonRichfield (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea why you want to revert it. Anisogamy itself is a sex dimorphism. I was wandering why no body even bothered mentioning it.
When you talk about evolution, do NOT forget that evolution is a history and that evolution is built upon previous evolution. Yjiangnan (talk) 17:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Please note that I did explain that Anisogamy is not a sexual dimorphism because, just for example:
Also note that the arguments based on the observations concerning sperm competition have no logical connection to sexual dimorphism in the adults in general. If you think that sperm competition is of importance or interest (with which I agree) then please deal with it in articles where the points are relevant. JonRichfield (talk) 19:05, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
I do not think you are arguing in a logic way. By definition, sex dimorphism is "a phenotypic difference between males and females of the same species". Of course, sperm and eggs are different. Males have sperm and females have eggs. Gamete size difference is a real difference between males and females, and there is no way to argue against this simple fact. If you do not agree with this, it just means that the definition of sexual dimorphism in your mind is too narrow. I am not sure what you mean by saying that sperm and ova do not have gender, but males are defined by producing sperm and females are defined by producing eggs. By the way, gender is not a very scientific term to refer to the biology of sex or sex dimorphism.
So, unless you are going to change the definition of sex dimorphism, I will insist on placing my edit here.
Regarding to your last paragraph, I am afraid that few things have "logical connection to sexual dimorphism" "in general", but I am not seeing you removing all of them. Sperm competition have fairly strong connection to sexual dimorphism (both logically and evolutionarily), and it will be wrong to not mention it. Additionally, what I add here is well accepted by many people in the scientific community. If you have different ideas, you can of course make your points. But it is improper to prevent others from expressing their ideas. I need to remind you that you need to keep neutral in Wikipedia. Yjiangnan (talk) 23:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your contributions on my views. A couple of points.
Now look. You have twice reverted my corrections. I shall not at this point get nasty and threaten WP sanctions and all that. Nor shall I as yet go to RFCs, DRs and all that stuff. You have some views on matters of fact and some on matters of opinion. What I see in the article at the moment is not to my mind acceptable in WP. However the material is of importance and with some editing, amplification, and publishing in the right context in other WP articles (plus links etc of course) we could mend matters outside the article (here if you like). How do you feel about that as a proposal? Or can you suggest alternatives? JonRichfield (talk) 12:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, I see your potential to complicate a simple logic into a hardly communicable way. "Sexual dimorphism is a phenotypic difference between males and females of the same species." This is not just my definition, but a definition at the beginning of the page of sexual dimorphism." Phenotypic difference" means any difference between individuals that is caused by the combined effects of both genetics and environment. Consider a zygote that develops into a male and another zygote that develops into a female. Then, males produce sperm and females produce ova. So, productions of sperm and ova are phenotypes that are controlled by the genes of the two zygotes. People use "phenotype" usually to compare with "genotype". Phenotype can mean anything from shape, color, behavior, and of course, the size of gametes. So, by definition, gamete size difference (anisogamy) is one phenotypic different between males and females, and is one instance of sexual dimorphism. It is also an important instance of sexual dimorphism, since it is the fundamental difference between males and females, otherwise you will never be able to define what is a male and what is a female in the huge diversity of life on earth. It also has important evolutionary connections with other instances of sexual dimorphism. That is why I think it deserves a few sentences here. Later in the section, it is mentioned that "In many non-monogamous species, the benefit to a male's reproductive fitness of mating with multiple females is large, whereas the benefit to a female's reproductive fitness of mating with multiple males is small or non-existent". If you are really familiar with the scientific literature of sex evolution, you will know that this is actually exactly the conclusion of sperm competition. Previous editors simply failed to point this out.
Sex has relative clear meanings in biology. Biologists usually use "sex" rather than "gender". That is why this page is called "sexual dimorphism" rather than "gender dimorphism". "Gender dimorphism" is too narrow, while sex is a more general term.
By the way, I only reverted you your reversion once, not twice (the other time I just re-edited what I think as improper in your edition). Mine is difference from yours because you reverted something I put a lot of work in but I only revert your few mouse clicks. You did not feel it maybe because you have more spare time to spend in Wikipedia than me so you did not think that my writing a paragraph is a lot of work. However, as a biologist who has a lot of research to do, I really do not have so much time here or arguing with you. I tried to edit this page simply because I do not think this page is complete enough for what biologists understand as sexual dimorphism. So, maybe I will not continue arguing with you here. But if you still think my addition has problems, I hope you can open your mind and give it a second thought. You may re-edited it to make it coherent with other stuffs, but I will feel uncomfortable if you simply revert it or delete many of my sentences.
Or, maybe it is better to settle it another way. We leave it in its current form, and let others re-edit it if they also feel it improper. Then the bias of yours and mine can be reduced. Yjiangnan (talk) 17:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
This omission is surprising, considering that this is one of the most obvious forms of sexual dimorpism in many species. Jarble (talk) 20:59, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
This article's got sections on plants, fish, herptiles, birds and mammals, IMO it could use a section covering sexual dimorphism in arthropods. -- Gordon Ecker, WikiSloth (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
I am curious as to why under the section dedicated to sexual dimorphism drifts to discussing birds and general topics not directly pertaining specifically to humans. These bits towards the end are interesting, and I would assume correct, but they don't seem to belong in this location. At the same time I am not really qualified on the topic at large to properly move this information to a different more correct location.--MDVang (talk) 11:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Can this be replaced? The current image is eurocentric, displays sex dimorphism through unnatural differences like hair length, and is clearly tainted by social bias, i.e the male is standing in a more direct pose, whilst the female isn't even standing up straight. If possible, it really should be replaced by a more scientific diagram. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.194.198 (talk) 09:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Intra- vs. inter-sexual selection tends to produce different types of sexually dimorphic adaptations. This article really should have a couple of subsections on these topics. Memills (talk) 04:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
source of info? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.46.137 (talk) 20:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I had some concerns with this section and the facts presented and some that were not mentioned at all. 1.) There still can be a dimorphism and equal parental contributions from both sexes. Although males do not produce eggs many stay and provide food while the females protect the offspring. The statement made only provided the extremes of sexually dimorphic males either providing no contribution or all contributions after reproduction. 2.) The topic of monogamous relationships between the birds was not mentioned. 3.) Also not all phenotypes correlate to fitness and there is a type of female selection called runaway sexual selection that is solely due to the female preference of the males and produces a positive feedback for this preferred trait. Willis.421 (talk) 18:28, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Currently, the article claims
In the United States, adult males are, on average, 4% taller and 8% heavier than adult females.
and references
in support.
I don't see how the sources support the claim. The figures given there for adults 20 years and over are:
I.e., American males are on average 8.5% taller and 16%–18% heavier than females.
—Naddy (talk) 21:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought that you did a good job explaining that sexual size dimorphism in spiders directly relates to sexual cannibalism as well. I thought you did a good job concisely explaining that larger females are selected due to being more fecund, and that males tend to mate with larger females because they are less likely to cannibalize the male. I added the sentence, “All Argiope species, including Argiope bruennichi, use this method.” In addition, I also thought you did a good job not summarizing any individual studies. Lastly, I changed “is more prominent” to “is more prominently selected for”. Great work! Leflame123 (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2015 (UTC) Leflame123
Enteryourcleverusername, this bit you added needs sourcing. As for what you stated in the #Human sexual dimorphism section above, keep in mind that, as noted as Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Layout, old sections are commonly overlooked. It's often best to start a new section for a new query. As for creating a Human sexual dimorphism article, we already have a Sex differences in humans article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
And, Enteryourcleverusername, "Human sexual dimorphism" redirects to Sex differences in human physiology. So, right now, the Sex differences in human physiology article is the Human sexual dimorphism article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:31, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Help required with Geodakyan's evolutionary theory of sex: the article of apparently fringe theory is based almost exclusively on primary sources and edited by a people with strong connection to the subject. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Overall, this article uses reliable sources that are up to date and unbiased. The references provide information on a wide variety of living organisms ranging from plants to mammals. The factual claims on sexual dimorphism in different species are heavily supported by over 100 references. Also, the lead paragraph is a good example of concise summary of the topic discussed. However, the section on physiological differentiation is a topic that is underrepresented. To improve this section, a definition of physiological differentiation would be helpful, as well as more examples of this phenomenon in nature. The evolution of sexual dimorphism is one other area that is underrepresented. However, another benefit to this article are the vast amount of pictures which provide visual examples of the variability of sexual dimorphism exhibited across species.––Jenniehorstmann (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Sexual dimorphism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:11, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
"On average, males have larger hearts, 10 percent higher red blood cell count, higher hemoglobin, hence greater oxygen-carrying capacity. They also have higher circulating clotting factors (vitamin K, prothrombin and platelets). These differences lead to faster healing of wounds and higher peripheral pain tolerance."
This part quoted above on human sexual dimorphism relies on a very old textbook as proof. I request evidence from the last 20-25 years as a lot of work has been done in that time. My main issue however are the conclusions drawn about men having a higher tolerance. EVERYONE knows that people's tolerance to pain can also be severely influenced by how they have been socialised. Men all over are socialised not to cry, put their big boy pants on, taught to see pain as a feminine weakness. Therefore it stands to reason that men seeming to have a higher pain tolerance could be greatly impacted by nurture not nature and might not be as conclusive a dimorphic feature as represented above between cis gendered people.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690315/ 85.255.233.197 (talk) 01:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Colias dimera copulating.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for June 7, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-06-07. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() |
Sexual dimorphism is the condition where the two sexes of the same species exhibit different characteristics. Differences may include secondary sex characteristics, size, weight, color, or markings, as well as behavioral and cognitive differences. In the butterfly species Colias dimera (also known as the Dimera sulphur), seen here mating in Venezuela, the male on the right is a brighter shade of yellow than the female. Photograph credit: Paolo Costa Baldi
Recently featured:
|
As repiles and avians are two separate and distinct things, except for being chordates. The term non-avian reptile is equivalent to reptile. Just like non-reptilian mammal is just a mammal. 68.118.187.196 (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
The audio for this article seriously needs an update.CycoMa (talk) 19:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Just a random suggestion as I pass through. This is a great New York Times article about a leaf-mimic insect that is so strikingly dimorphic that it was long thought to be two different species—for one of which only females had been observed—and one only males:
He Was a Stick, She Was a Leaf; Together They Made History
BananaSlug (talk) 17:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
This article is on sexual dimorphism: "di" as in divergent, and "morphism" as in morphology (shape or form). It has always been my understanding that the differences in reproductive organs are not considered as characters in sexual dimorphism. Under the heading Humans, subjects such as metabolic rates, blood cells, granulocytes, antibodies, psychological tolerance to pain, the brain, testosterone, estrogen, genes, and chromosomes are discussed in some detail. Sexual dimorphism does not include ALL differences between males and females. I believe it is only about the physical shape, form, or morphology, the appearance,. I am not the ultimate arbiter on the subject, and I'm not questioning the accuracy of the content, but most of the content under the heading of humans seems off the subject to me.WiLaFa (talk) 03:49, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
material copied from user talk page |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Can you tell me about this edit you made? I don't understand how it is COI or citespam. thanks! UtherSRG (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
I see you made a similar deletion for the same reason at Physical therapy. Please provide evidence for your claims of a COI and the exact diffs (plural) for the additions of the content in both articles. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't get it? Is peer reviewed science really "COI citespam"? So you have these PhD. professors who have been publishing on their field of expertise in international, peer reviewed science journals for 25 years, and these are the people we don't want contributing to Wikipedia? It is not considered a conflict of interest to cite your own publications in peer reviewed journals. People have been doing it for 200 years.WiLaFa (talk) 22:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
At Wikipedia, it is NOT true that "It is not considered a conflict of interest to cite your own publications in peer reviewed journals." It is a clear violation of WP:COI to do so. OTOH, it is okay to use the talk page to suggest one's own publication as a source. Then other editors can add it if they deem the source appropriate to use. This is standard practice. We have banned a Nobel Prize laureate for refusing to back down on this issue, so we take this very seriously. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC) I get it, I did wrong by overusing the self-cite. But now you have cleaned all my contributions to science off Wikipedia, which I feel is overdoing the gate-keeping. Yes, self-citing is self promotion. But in this case it is also sharpening up the information on Wikipedia. PzychoPat (talk) 09:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC) |
overdoing the gatekeepingto revert COI material pending a positive consensus for inclusion. Generalrelative (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Valjean, with all respect, I do not appreciate someone taking my sentence, adding a prefix of words to it which change its meaning, and then telling I am wrong. "It is not considered a conflict of interest to cite your own publications in peer reviewed journals." In the context of scientific writing, authors cite their own research often, and editors, journals, and reviewers, do not object, and scientific societies, museums, and universities publish it. It is the norm.
Furthermore Wikipedia WP:COI clearly states that, using material you have written or published is allowed if it is relevant, conforms to policies, and is not excessive.
"Conflict of interest WP:COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships." This is not the case in the Sexual dimorphism article. The deleted material and references involve scientific writing that has passed peer review, an editorial process, and published in journals. It is published science, not self-promotional material.
There is heading titled "Citing yourself" WP:COI
Using material you have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is relevant, conforms to the content policies, including WP:SELFPUB, and is not excessive. Citations should be in the third person and should not place undue emphasis on your work. You will be permanently identified in the page history as the person who added the citation to your own work. When in doubt, defer to the community's opinion: propose the edit on the article's talk page and allow others to review it. However, adding numerous references to work published by yourself and none by other researchers is considered to be a form of spamming.
I think the deleted material falls within these guidelines and I don't think referencing your own research (via peer reviewed science journals), 3 or 4 times in an article of this size is excessive. WiLaFa (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The deleted material and references involve scientific writing that has passed peer review, an editorial process, and published in journals. It is published science, not self-promotional material.Sounds like what you're describing is still WP:PRIMARY, however. When it comes to science, we typically take extra precaution to avoid over-emphasizing individual primary sources (i.e. "studies") as opposed to secondary sources like systematic reviews and meta-analyses. Contrary to what you seem to suggest, lots of stuff is technically "published science" which is totally inappropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia. In all cases, the best practice is what I've described in my previous comment, and that goes double for any topic about which discretionary sanctions have been put in place (so anything to do with gender and sexuality). I'd suggest turning your attention toward making the case for inclusion of this particular content –– if that's something you'd like to see –– on its own merits. Generalrelative (talk) 23:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
"I'd suggest turning your attention toward making the case for inclusion of this particular content –– if that's something you'd like to see –– on its own merits." I would say it the other way around, a case should be made for excluding this particular content on its own merits (not because an editor cited their publication WP:SELFCITE). This is what I am finding a little disturbing here, nowhere has anyone addressed the content or substance of the deleted text, only pointing to guidelines that do really not support what is implied. The deleted texts appear to be appropriate, valid, and in good faith. As I asked very early on in this discussion, is there something specifically controversial or problematic about the deleted entries? This has never been address or made clear.
Reasons for the deleting text given above include -
Erroneous: WP:SELFCITE and, content and supporting references were deleted and they were not redundant to existing content or citations.
These link to other pages and subjects and do not address the content in question here or its merits, and WP:SELFCITE
Erroneous: WP:SELFCITE and this still does not address the content or its merits.
"Sounds like", have you had time to look into this yet? Not all of the deleted references are primary, some are secondary. Contrary to what you seem to suggest, WP:PRIMARY says "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care", "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts", and to use "common sense". How and where are deleted text and references in question "over-emphasized"? They appear to me to be straightforward, statements of facts with references and consistent with WP:PRIMARY.
Please explain why all these Wikipedia guidelines above are not applicable here. It appears to me arguments for deleting self cited edits or primary sources seem to be based on selective guidelines taken out of context, and contrary to the mainstream of the manual of style and guidelines. Wikipedia also says to assume good faith. Sure anything can be misrepresented or abused, but please show where this is the case here.
I have little interest in Wikipedia articles on gender and sexuality. My interest here is in zoology, specifically herpetology, and the integrity of referencing peer-reviewed scholarship.WiLaFa (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
I would say it the other way around, a case should be made for excluding this particular content on its own merits.That's not how this works. I am, by the way, still entirely open to being persuaded on the merits. But no one here is required to WP:SATISFY you. If you disagree with the way this conversation is going, you are of course free to take it to a noticeboard. Generalrelative (talk) 02:57, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I keep getting my edits deleted because I am self-citing. Since I have been a researcher of sexual dimorphism for 25 years, I feel that there is some validity in self-citing, however (and I do not only self-cite; there are a number of interesting themes missing from this page written by others, believe it or not). But apparently, peer review is stricter on Wikipedia. This is a good method to keep scientists off Wikipedia, so I guess I'll fuck off. (Which is a bummer; this page needs to be looked over.) But if you want to improve the quality of the page, feel free to enter the following citations in the context indicated (as it is now, several claims are unsourced).
In a large proportion of mammal species, males are larger than females.<ref>((Cite book |last=Lindenfors |first=Patrik |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/86110044 |title=Sex, size, and gender roles: evolutionary studies of sexual size dimorphism |last2=Gittleman |first2=John L. |last3=Jones |first3=Kate E. |publisher=Oxford University Press |others=Fairbairn, Daphne J., Blanckenhorn, Wolf U., Székely, Tamás (eds.) |year=2007 |isbn=978-0-19-920878-4 |location=Oxford |pages=19–26 |chapter=Sexual size dimorphism in mammals |oclc=86110044))</ref><ref>((Cite journal |last=McPherson |first=F.J. |last2=Chenoweth |first2=P.J. |date=2012 |title=Mammalian sexual dimorphism |url=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0378432012000619 |journal=Animal Reproduction Science |language=en |volume=131 |issue=3-4 |pages=109–122 |doi=10.1016/j.anireprosci.2012.02.007))</ref><ref>((Cite journal |last=Glucksmann |first=A. |date=1974 |title=Sexual dimorphism in mammals |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-185X.1974.tb01171.x |journal=Biological Reviews |language=en |volume=49 |issue=4 |pages=423–475 |doi=10.1111/j.1469-185X.1974.tb01171.x |issn=1464-7931))</ref>
[[Marine mammals]] show some of the greatest sexual size differences of mammals, because of sexual selection and environmental factors like breeding location.<ref>((Cite journal |last=Lindenfors |first=Patrik |last2=Tullberg |first2=Birgitta |last3=Biuw |first3=Martin |date=2002-08-01 |title=Phylogenetic analyses of sexual selection and sexual size dimorphism in pinnipeds |url=http://link.springer.com/10.1007/s00265-002-0507-x |journal=Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=188–193 |doi=10.1007/s00265-002-0507-x |issn=0340-5443))</ref><ref>((Cite journal| vauthors = Cassini MH |date=January 2020|title=A mixed model of the evolution of polygyny and sexual size dimorphism in mammals |journal=Mammal Review|language=en|volume=50|issue=1|pages=112–120|doi=10.1111/mam.12171|s2cid=208557639|issn=0305-1838))</ref>
Modern day ''[[Homo sapiens]]'' show a range of sexual dimorphism<ref>((Citation |last=Nikitovic |first=Dejana |title=Sexual dimorphism (humans) |date=2018-10-04 |url=https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781118584538.ieba0443 |work=The International Encyclopedia of Biological Anthropology |pages=1–4 |editor-last=Trevathan |editor-first=Wenda |place=Hoboken, NJ, USA |publisher=John Wiley & Sons, Inc. |language=en |doi=10.1002/9781118584538.ieba0443 |isbn=978-1-118-58442-2 |access-date=2023-02-23 |editor2-last=Cartmill |editor2-first=Matt |editor3-last=Dufour |editor3-first=Dana |editor4-last=Larsen |editor4-first=Clark))</ref>, with average body mass between the sexes differing by roughly 15%.<ref>((cite journal | vauthors = Larsen CS | title = Equality for the sexes in human evolution? Early hominid sexual dimorphism and implications for mating systems and social behavior | journal = Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America | volume = 100 | issue = 16 | pages = 9103–4 | date = August 2003 | pmid = 12886010 | pmc = 170877 | doi = 10.1073/pnas.1633678100 | bibcode = 2003PNAS..100.9103L | doi-access = free ))</ref><ref>((Cite journal |last=Gustafsson |first=Anders |last2=Lindenfors |first2=Patrik |date=2004 |title=Human size evolution: no evolutionary allometric relationship between male and female stature |url=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0047248404001046 |journal=Journal of Human Evolution |language=en |volume=47 |issue=4 |pages=253–266 |doi=10.1016/j.jhevol.2004.07.004))</ref>
Sexual dimorphism in immune function is a common pattern in vertebrates and also in a number of invertebrates. Most often, females are more 'immunocompetent' than males.<ref>((Cite journal |last=Nunn |first=Charles L |last2=Lindenfors |first2=Patrik |last3=Pursall |first3=E. Rhiannon |last4=Rolff |first4=Jens |date=2009-01-12 |title=On sexual dimorphism in immune function |url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2008.0148 |journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences |language=en |volume=364 |issue=1513 |pages=61–69 |doi=10.1098/rstb.2008.0148 |issn=0962-8436 |pmc=PMC2666693 |pmid=18926977))</ref> PzychoPat (talk) 09:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
After reading the source material for this line in the "human" section of the article I've found that this line "In males, pain-causing injury to the peripheral nerve occurs through the microglia, while in females it occurs through the T cells (except in pregnant women, who follow a male pattern)" citing: Dance A (27 March 2019). "Why the sexes don't feel pain the same way". Nature. 567 (7749): 448–450. Bibcode:2019Natur.567..448D. doi:10.1038/d41586-019-00895-3. PMID 30918396. S2CID 85527866. Is at best misleading and at worst completly false. The article in question does not mention humans once inr regards to research actually conducted, and specifically covers pain research in mice. Additionally this is a relatively new article and research that merely suggests that the pathways for pain reception differences in human males and females MIGHT be different if the THEORETICAL differences in mice are the same. The above claim should either be moved to the general mammal section of the article or removed all together. The source material simply doesn't support what is written. Made an account just to point this out. C. Mich. Dav. (talk) 08:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
User:Lina Magull altered some long standing edits without explanation. The changes did not appear to be useful for the following reasons.
I reverted that changes. These were nearly immediately reverted back without explanation by User:Germany 6-0 Spain. Suspect that User:Germany 6-0 Spain and User:Lina Magull are the same person.
The above issues need to be addressed, or else the text should return to its original condition. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
The picture caption says: "...adult female (left) and adult male (right)," but the picture actually shows most of a third animal, and while it is possible to guess from the context what is meant, it would be clearer to specify the middle animal and the one on the right - if, of course, I have guessed right! Or to specify that the two animals on the left are females. Thoughts? FloweringOctopus (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)