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The current article is really focused on political economy as a discipline based on the works of the materialist school of political philosophy. Political Economy and Economics share a great deal of overlap, and there are people who use economics as their theory of political economy.
The section on concepts is largely drawn from, in order, Smith, Ricardo and Marx. Namely, that human activity is based on production, exchange and consumption, and that political activity interacts with market activity.
Part of this is to disentagle all of the arguments over "alternatives" and "radical" literature, by using political economy to connect a wide range of disciplines, such as sociology, legal theory, economics, cultural and anthropological studies into one, more or less, comprehensible article.
What's missing - well, alot.
First, there needs to be linking and description of thinkers from the point of view of political economy. Marx is one, but libertarianism is, if you think about it, a theory of political economy. Different people should contribute sections on the political economy of different view points, to give a broader and more balanced view of the different contending strains of thought.
Second, there needs to be a whole section which links to sociology, which can be roughly described as the study of the relationships between labor and capital, and the effects of those relationships.
Third, there needs to be an essay on the history of political economy, where it draws from and diverges from political philosophy, and how it is used in forming policy.
Archived a lot of old talk to Talk:Political economy/archive - Enchanter - exhaustive debate regarding 'the commons' etc. which is mostly relevant to the old text.
I rewrote the first paragraph, although I realize it will be improved by others. My main concern is that it is too simplistic to equate economics with PE. There is an important and interesting relationship and the article should do full justice to it, but even if many economists use "economics" and "political economy" interchangably -- do they really? I didn't think so. -- the first paragraph needs to do more to signal diffferent usage and the context in which these different uses occur. This is what I tried to do. Slrubenstein
If you take a course (at least in the US) called "political economy" in a political science department, and a course called "political economy" in an anthropology department, the two courses will likely have NOTHING in common (except perhaps at a level so abstract as to be meaningless). I think a good article on PE would explain both why these two courses would be so different, and why they would both have the same name. Slrubenstein
By the way, in my own opinion the bulk of the article -- all those short sections later on -- is a mess: extremely poorly written, unclear, perhaps biased, uninformative, maybe misleading. Slrubenstein
I removed this to talk, because it is unclear:
Most people I know of do not use PE as a synonym for Economics. But I am sure you are right that there are some -- but to identify those people as followers of Ricardo and Marx is just too vague and broad. Who, exactly, uses PE today as a synonym for Economics? Slrubenstein
Enchanter, I reverted to delete the comment that it is often used as a synonym for economics. I just have never heard anyone do that. If you are right, that some people use it as a synonym for economics today, then you have to say who. That's all I am asking. Something like "Some people, especially..." or "Some people, such as ..." (use the term as a synonym for economics). But I have worked in several universities, and have known a number of economists, and none of them ever identified themselves or their department as "Political economy." So it is not a universal and maybe not even a common practice. I really don't mean to censor you, but if you insist on including this in the article, back it up or provide some specificity. Don't you agree that specificity (who uses the term this way) would be more informative and more educational to the readers of an encyclopedia article? Slrubenstein
Well I think we are on the right track. In the US most programs that identify themselves as "Political Economy" are explicitly interdisciplinary and draw on courses from both Economics and Political Science. I wouldn't go by other encyclopedias, I would go by how different departments actually identify themselves. If you have time, do a little more research and by all means add the information to the article. Slrubenstein
(Written before SLR's last comment, posted via edit conflict.) Enchanter has this one right, SLR - which doesn't make you wrong! I think it must be a regional thing - that same old US vs International usage thing we stumble on all the time. The original term for what we now think of as "economics" is "political economy". JS Mill, for example, was a "political economist", not an "economist". The term "economics" came into vouge later.
There are two or three threads to follow here:
These days, it is conventional to use "political economy" to indicate a broader interest than the narrowly economic, and (in particular) a Marxian theoretical approach.
When I was a student, I had the mind-bending but highly stimulating experience of studying right-wing Economics (in the School of Business) and left-wing Political Economy (part of the School of Social Sciences) at the same time! It was astonishing to discover how much the two radically opposed ways of thinking about production and distribution and society have in common, but you had to do a lot of translation in your head, as they tend to use quite different terms (with quite different implied values) for the same things.
I suspect that your experience of not meeting the term "political economy" in US universities, SLR, is a peculiarity of the USA. That would fit neatly with the curious strength of functonalist sociology in the US, where in the rest of the world (certainly the English-speaking word) functionalisim is something of a poor relation to conflict theory.
Now, how on earth do we get this complex web of shifting meanings into the article without making the whole thing unreadable? No easy task!
Tannin 00:45 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
Tannin, I think the article as it stands makes many of the same points you do -- although I invite you to add/edit for clarity. Before you do, though, let me clarify a few things.
1) If I understand you correctly, at the time (1870s) that usage switched from "political economy" to "economics," it is primarily a semantic change. I agree with you that by the 1880s people were using "economics" largely to refer to what ten or twenty years earlier had been called "political economy." In this narrow sense -- and (crucially) at that specific transitional moment, I agree with you that "political economy" and "economics" are synonyms.
2) Nevertheless, I do not believe that the change was merely semantic. It wasn't just "economics" that developed around this time, "political science" did too. There was a stong movement among Western academics, politicians, and bisinessmen to see "politics" and "economics" as separate domains. (in other words, I think your reasons 2 and 3 are very important, but reject your reason 1) But if your reasons 2 and 3 are right, it is still a simplification to say that economics was "originally" another name for political economy -- the change in terminology reflected an important shift in the orientation of the field.
3) That's the 19th century. Now for the 20th -- because the real issue that Enchanter raises in not whether "economics" originally refered to PE, but whether it it still does today. I think you misunderstand me -- I did not write that I have "not met the term 'political economy' in US universities." I am very familiar with people who call themselves, or what they do, political economy. What I wrote was that these people are not economists -- more specifically, I wrote that I know of no economics department, or professor of economics, who calls what they do "political economy" unless the mean the relatively narrow field that looks at balance of payments and tariffs and such -- clearly, not a synonym for "economics but a specialized branch. Moreover, the people I do know who explicitly call what they do "political economy" generally deny being economists (most of them are in sociology or anthropology). These are people you refer to as Marxian, although here in the US it is perhaps more specific, it is followers of Frank and Wallerstein and to some extent Rey. Finally, I am have also "met" political economy programs in US Universities, but they all explicitly identify themselves as interdisciplinary -- that is, not "economics" but a program that involves faculty from economics and political science and tries to define a hybrid subject matter using an interdisciplinary approach. I have just given you three examples of "political economy" in the US and in all three examples, the term is not a synonym for "economics." I have tried to incorporate this material in the article -- please tell me if I did so adequately. Also, if the above is true in the US but not in other English speaking countries, please just put that in. But frankly, your account of your own experience as a student seems to jibe far more with what I wrote than with what Enchanter wrote -- in your experience, "political economy" is not used interchangably with "economics," economists and political economists have different assumptions and political committments!
Enchater's argument is this: "I'm convinced that political economy does often mean the same as economics." It is the use of the present tense that concerns me, and honestly, Tannin, based on what you wrote, I think you do not agree with Enchanter, and do agree with me.
In any event: what to do? I do believe you and Enchanter have something important to add the the article. As both of you point out, there may be regional differences and you really ought to add that to the article. But in addition to that, I insist on two things
I am reverting the article to an earlier NPOV version. I do believe that it may be possible to reincorperate some of the material in the current version, but not as is. There are a few problems. First, it isn't accurate -- many people who identify themselves as political economists do not share the views now described in the article. I have met political ecoomists and have read books and articles by political economists who are not studying the means of production, for example; many of these political economists also reject the labor theory of value (tangentially, the definitions of sociology, anthropology, and psychology are wrong; they are even wrong as accounts of how sociologists and anthropologists use political economy). Second, it is POV -- I am sure there are some people who share these views, but these views cannot be presented as authoritative. Moreover, the views that currently dominate the article are presented without any context or framing. Finally, I take issue with the style, which I think is obfuscatory. For example, "Political Economy studies" makes no sence -- political economy is itself what political economists study. Another example: "Socialism believes" is an awkward construction. Socialism is itself a belief. People believe, not ideologies. There is also too much passive voice. These are not purely stylistic problems, because they direct content. Thus, I am unwilling to change "socialism believes" to "socialists believe" for the simple reason that not all socialists believe this. Many socialists in specific places and times may believe, or may have believed, this stuff -- bwhoever put it in has to be more specific. In any event, I would probably still delete it as it obviously belongs in an article on socialism, not political economy. My suggestion: make sure the appropriate link is here, and contribute to the article on socialism. I have the same problem with the passive voice -- who is the subject of the action? I can't just change it to active voice myself, as I am not always sure who to make the subject. Slrubenstein
The previous article uses "liberal" in a way which is common only to a narrow band of individuals. The expanded article includes almost all of the material in the original, as well as links to a host of disciplines which claim some reference to the term.
Stirling Newberry 00:49, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
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Hello. I think i resolved this problem that people "equate economics with PE. " with a little historical perspective. Political Economy has since been to split into the fields of Economics *and* Political Science. As well political economy has much to do with the field of public finance, but I did not add anything regarding that yet.
A quote speaking of the split of political economy into economics and political science ( http://edpro.stanford.edu/eah/cambridg.htm ):
"The discipline's formal split into the distinct studies of political science and economics in the nineteenth century, while advantageous for certain scientific developments, has **biased the way economists and political scientists think about many issues**, and has **placed artificial constraints on the study of many important social issues**"
If someone could rewrite the above paragraph and add it in it would clarify a lot. It clarifies the split of political economy (into economics / political science), and also says why people choose to study political economy for the broader picture (since the split has "biased the way economists and political scientists think about many issues" and "placed artificial constraints on the study of many important social issues" [above quote from standford.edu].
Re: Slrubenstein's Comments
Political economy has largely been split into economics and political science. If you read the 2 paragraph 'article' you would notice that the author champions the point that this split is in many ways artificial. It also causes each side to be biased and to ignore important aspects the other side brings to the table.
Any department of political economy is often always an interdepartmental major between economics and political science, (e.g. http://www.williams.edu/politicaleconomy/ ). Courses in political economy are not surprising; they are often public finance courses with a more political science in them.
The questions of this article then become: 1) What things does political economy look at that are neglected by economics and political science? 2) What 'synergies' are created by looking at the big picture of political economy compared to its constituent parts: economics and political science? 3) What, if anything, is there in political economy that is not included in economics or political science? 4) What is the relationship and distinction between public finance and political economy? ShaunMacPherson
Slrubenstein said: "not only how people used the term in the 19th century but how they use it now as well"
Isn't the link to the 2 paragraph "*Modern* Political Economy" link not 'now' enough for you? Its modern, now, current not 19th century.
As for the link, I was talking about is the only link in the origional post you critiqued: http://edpro.stanford.edu/eah/cambridg.htm , 2 paragraphs about a book called "Modern Political Economy".
The 4 questions i raised: 1) What things does political economy look at that are neglected by economics and political science? 2) What 'synergies' are created by looking at the big picture of political economy compared to its constituent parts: economics and political science? 3) What, if anything, is there in political economy that is not included in economics or political science? 4) What is the relationship and distinction between public finance and political economy?
Should be a good starting point, but I was hoping someone could add some more questions to add. ShaunMacPherson
This is interesting information, I think the article should be edited to include this. I will look for some sites that give some more distinctions and edit some of the article later this week.
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I have begun editing a paragraph but again the failure to distingush clearly the difference between economics and political science from political economy is making it difficult to be crystal clear. Here is my edit:
The problem I have with my edit is that economists often do look at the political picture, esp. since many economists work for government so they are hugely concerned with the political aspects of economic policy.
Also my editing edit from a week ago of the intro paragraph:
This gives an excellent segway into *why* people choose to study both economics and political economy in combination as 'political economy', and the benefits, and draw backs, of doing so. Also I will add that political economy, like many other fields (e.g. library and information science) is an interdisciplinary field.
I see your point; I think for me the question is, are you speaking abstractly (that there is some ideal entity called political economy, which, when mixed with some other ideal entity called anthropology produces one thing, but when mixed with ... &c.), or are you speaking concretely (in 17xx M- first formulated political economy as ..., by 18xx it had come to take n forms ... and so on). I think the article currently mixes both approaches. I much prefer the second approach and just think the article should be more consistent and clearer in this regard Slrubenstein
Yes, you understand me correctly -- although I would have no problem with alternatives, as long as the type of or approach to political economy is clearly framed and contextualized (that is, the order doen't have to be chronological, although I do think that the time frame among other contextual features has to be clear). To answer your question, I would say "yes" if I thought all people who identify themselves or their work as "political economy" agreed about what they mean by political economy. I don't think they do. As a matter of fact, one reason I suggested that the definitions be presented chronologically is that it seems to me that the opening definition of PE is not the "current definition" but in fact a 19th century definition. Now, I am sure there are people today who identify themselves as political economists who would find the opening definition acceptable -- but based on my research, the number of people who would say it is a good definition is relatively small. That in my mind doesn't make it wrong -- it just means that the article needs to be clearer about who uses this definition, and what other definitions are current. Slrubenstein
What is it about Shaun's definition that makes you think it is more than 100 years out of date. Please be specific. mydogategodshat 05:21, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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Hi!
1) This definition was already there, I just added slightly to the end, I'm not sure who added it or even how true it is:
2) I read the above chat and I think it would probably be best to put the past definitions of political economy into the history section, and also a brief passage about the resultant birth of economics and political science as seperate entities, why it was necessary to split them, what was impetus behind the split etc.
3) The beginning part should be concerned as to why people bother to study political economy, or any other interdisciplinary field instead of its constituent parts in the first place. So far the reasons why people study interdisciplinary fields, like political economy, seem to be:
From ( http://edpro.stanford.edu/eah/cambridg.htm )
Also:
4) This along with User Newberry's answers to my 4 questions should be a good start. I will make a few small edits, and some large edits tommrow. I'll post the changes I make in here for discussion.
See you soon!
Distinction between economics and political economy:
http://www.henrygeorge.org/pdfs/sup1.pdf
Economics and political economy are often terms used interchangably, although there are distinctions and the paper goes into them.
Definitions of Political Economy
1. economics, economic science, political economy -- (the branch of social science that deals with the production and distribution and consumption of goods and services and their management)
POLITICAL ECONOMY
Definition: [n] the branch of social science that deals with the production and distribution and consumption of goods and services and their management Synonyms: economic science, economics
Main Entry: political economy 1 : ECONOMICS 2 : the theory or study of the role of public policy in influencing the economic and social welfare of a political unit
Here are three of terms from the internet, just to reinforce my point that political economy and economics are quite similar, and in some cases considered equal. --ShaunMacPherson 11:05, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
--- Possible LARGE ERROR:
MS Encarta Encyclopeda 2003 gives Adam Smith in his An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (a.k.a. 'Wealth of Nations') (1776) credit for developing political economy. "It was the first work to establish political economy as a subject of study in its own right."
This means that either MS Encarta Encyclopedia is wrong, or the first paragraph of our article is at best incomplete. --ShaunMacPherson 11:16, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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Societies produce more than isolated individuals, and labor with the aid of capital produces more than labor alone. Societies also generate more waste, and capital makes demands for investment and organization. The first can be referred to as the social surplus and capital surplus respectively, and the second social costs and capital requirements. One of the most important social costs is war. Indeed the difference between political economy and economics is that, in economics, war is a temporarily alteration in price variation, the old joke being that "World War III, should it come, will be noted in two sentences in the Wall Street Journal, with an article inside on its effect on soybean futures."
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There is little, if anything, in the section 'Central concepts of political economy' that is not in the direct purview of economics. It should therefore be moved to economics. --ShaunMacPherson 11:52, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
--- Deleted Parts
((Political economy is, broadly speaking, concerned with all phases of human activity that involve production, exchange, consumption and disposal of the needs and wants of human beings,)) This is economics.
((including the political ramifications of this activity)) economics is not excluded from looking at political ramifcations.
((Within political science, the term refers to liberal, realist, and Marxian theories concerning the relationship between economic and political power among states. This is also of concern to students of economic history and institutional economics; nevertheless, within economics the term is more closely associated with Game theory.)) Put it into political science.
The first paragraph under the heading Political Economy->Centeral concepts->exchange is fine. The second paragraph is not fine. If nothing else the link behind "political capital" was busted in that it pointed to the definition of capital cities. I have changed it to point to "law_and_economics" (which is a little bit better). But that does not actually fix what is wrong here. Perhaps the "announcement" of the goal of political economy (or THE economy) should be elswhere in the overall article and that might help. Even so, I see no support for the notion that the creation of money is the goal of exchange or economic activity. Even mercantilism (the hoarding of gold) was abandoned by Smith and Ricardo. This paragraph needs a lot of work and/or discussion. A statement of overall goal needs to be moved to some other (I suggest more prominent) place in the article. The definition of money and capital as two different things is IMHO important. You may object to what I have done, but IMHO SOMETHING needs to be done with ths paragraph. It was simply WRONG.
Consumption does not have as a goal or an intent the return of goods to a state of waste. And consumption (the realization of utility) does not always create waste. --208.54.14.9 20:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have cleaned-up the section on Paradigms of Distribution as it was riddled with errors, and displayed an American bias that was not justifiable. I also removed Ayn Rand as she is not a credible author of anything other than cult novels. I also reordered some thinkers into their proper philosophical categories. TrulyTory 21:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned that this article contains a lot of non-mainstream viewpoints not attributed to the people who hold them, and has nowhere near enough references to ensure verifiability. Many mainstream sources describe "political economy" as nothing more than an alternative term for economics. For example, the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Political Economy has two paragraphs which says no more than that. The current Wikipedia article is completely different; most of it is unsourced and most of it appears to me to be based on views held by certain particular schools of thought (such as Marxism) without identifying who holds those views. There is nothing wrong with including the views of all schools of thought within Wikipedia. However, it is essential that they are attributed correctly, particularly where they relate to views which many would regard as outside the mainstream (such as the view that the whole subject of economics is flawed and misguided and that it needs to be replaced by something better called "political economy".) Enchanter 19:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
After doing some more research and reading up on the links given in the article, I'm still unable to find sources that back up the article. For example, there is a whole section on "paradigms of distribution", but I can find no source that used "paradigms of distribution" in the way described here (for example, the phrase only gets 80 or so Google hits, many of which are either Wikipedia mirrors or about totally unrelated subjects). The whole section, and much of the rest of the article, looks like an original essay to me, and I'm beginning to think that it may be better to remove some of the text en masse rather than attempt to source it and clean it up. Enchanter 01:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've now removed the whole section on "General paradigms of political economy", as I still can't find any sources that talk about "paradigms of political economy" in this way. It looks like original research to me, and needs to be sourced if it is to remain. Enchanter 20:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I've now also removed the section on "Concepts of political economy". Again, this was unsourced and it did not make clear what schools of economic thought held the views described. Most of the substantive content is already dealt with elsewhere in Wikipedia articles on the various economic schools of thought. Enchanter 15:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've now also removed the "Market" and "Scope" sections, which suffereed from similar problems to the others noted above. Enchanter 23:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Political Economists are generally political scientists who have focused on economics. They do tend to look at the political consequences of economic policy, most of the time focusing on the trade deficit. As Mr. Newberry demonstrated, they generally have no clue that a trade deficit also means a capital account surplus...which is in consensus everywhere outside of Political Science. (Someoneelse)
The first paragraph of this article attributes the introduction of the labour theory of value to John Locke. However, the Wikilink to LTV in that very sentence, reads:
... the theory has been traced back to Treatise of Taxes, written in 1662 by Sir William Petty.
In fact, Locke is not mentioned anywhere in that article. I will leave it for someone else to fix, since I don't know which, if either, is correct. --Horse Badorties 04:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Enchanter, if you don't understand something do not delete it -- explain what you don't understand so others can try to improve the article by making it clearer. Don't delete relevant conteent. Slrubenstein
I agree with you about the grammar (I don't think I wrote the sentence). But when I was in grad. school I took a course on political economy that was virtually all game-theory. I have talked to others (My own discipline does not use game theory with, or as political economy) and they tell me that it is common in some disciplines to use "political economy" to refer to a body of knowledge that depends on game theory. Slrubenstein
I happen to agree with your second comment. In anthropology and sociology "political economy" is indeed identified with Marxism, but not in other disciplines. If you care to look at the history, I think much of what you refer to was added by Stirling Newberry but I may be wrong -- if I am right maybe he can respond to your comment ... Slrubenstein
Newberry reverted my work with no explanation here, but suggested that the labor theory of value comes later than political economy. That is not true. Locke first developed the labor theory of value and it was an important element of political economy in its early years. By the way, I did not write the sentence Newberry objects to -- I was merely reinserting a sentence someone else wrote, that Newberry had deleted. I made other changes that Newberrry reverted, even though he did not object to them. Newberry instead opens with a definition of "economy" from Rousseau, and there are three problems with this: first, Rousseau was not a political economist; second, you do not need to cite Rousseau on the etymology of economy, all you need is a dictionary; third, "economy" is not "political economy" and the etymology does not in any way help us understand what political economy was or is. Slrubenstein
"There are several advantages inherent in the broader scope offered by studying political economy. First, by taking full advantage of the best techniques from economics and political science, resulting conclusions can be more indepth and complete. Second, focusing in on only one subject disregards valuable insights from the other areas which may lead to conclusions that are biased, or incomplete." I removed this part for the following reasons: The idea that combining techniques and insights from various scientific disciplines would lead to more 'complete' or less biased science is not specific to political science. Furthermore to my knowledge it is not a generally accepted notion and would require some evidence to back it up.
"Societies produce more than isolated individuals, and labour with the aid of capital produces more than labour alone. Societies also generate more waste, and capital makes demands for investment and organization. The first can be referred to as the social surplus and capital surplus respectively, and the second as social costs and capital requirements." <-- this is a bit unclear if you ask me, I'm not sure I understand it :P So, what exactly are "Social surplus" and "Capital surplus"? It's important to make those clear in the article, since the following sections makes extensive references to them.
Until October 2007 the article stated that Smith held the chair in moral philosophy at Glasgow. Then it was changed to read that Smith was "Chairman of Moral Philosophy". Someone who holds a chair in a university is not a chairman, they are a professor. A chairman is someone who heads a committee or presides over a meeting. Can we change it back please - unless of course there is some evidence that this usage which sounds so odd today was actually employed at the time? Thanks. Andy Denis (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I've cleaned up the discussion page to keep the conversation more organized and readable. The article itself suffers from a lack of readability; perhaps organizing the talk page will enable better discussion and a better article. Please follow Wikipedia standards, namely Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and Wikipedia:Talk page layout. This means a threaded discussion Help:Using talk pages#Indentation and signing your comments (Wikipedia:Signatures). Dpetley (talk) 04:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that there's an error in the dates in the etymology section of the articles. The years are supposed to be 17XX and instead its written 19XX. I didn't fix it because I don't know what the right date is in the 1700's so please fix it. thank you Noabeny (talk) 19:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC) Noa
1) Very few references in this article, particularly the last section which is filled with unsourced definitions of various disciplines.
2) We could add something about the various theories that attempt to explain the origins of or motivations behind the creation of Political Economy/International PE/International Relations. I favour the fragmentation theory or the idea that:
The disciplines (in reverse order of their institutional establishment) of IPE, IR, Political Science and Economics are, arguably, outcomes of the fragmentation of political economy, from at least the marginalist revolution of the 1870s onwards. In this revolution, the socio-political contents of political economy (in particular, its basis in history, class relations and the social production of wealth) was evicted from the new-found discipline of economics, and replaced with assumptions about homo economicus, scarce resources, subjective preference theory and market equilibrium. One of the founders of marginalism argued that ‘the supposed conflict of labour with capital is a delusion. The real conflict is between producers and consumers’ (Jevons, 1887: 98). The prior concerns of political economy were subsequently reincorporated within other emergent academic disciplines (Milonakis and Fine, 2009; Wallerstein, 2001).
Benjamin Selwyn (2014) 'Twenty-first-century International Political Economy: A class-relational perspective' European Journal of International Relations 1–25
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 8 December 2014 (UTC)