![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I've removed some recently added text that looks like original research, and doesn't seem correct. The removed text is:
And:
Now it would be good to have a discussion of the gradual drift of the pentagram traced on the zodiac by the venus-sun conjunctions. There is indeed a drift, however I'm pretty sure the figures of 600 years and 1200 years don't come into it. I could stand corrected, but I figured this out myself a while ago, and there weren't any round numbers! Also, the calculation should be simplified to avoid leap days and drift days, and simply use the time for a sidereal year: 365.256363051 days. Given venus' synodic period of 583.9211 days, we should be able to figure it out pretty precisely:
If it had been a perfect 8 years then the pentagram would be precise, but it's not. It's short by 2.410213 degrees, and each eight years we can add another 2.410213 degrees to that error. So for the point to drift a full 360 degrees around the circle will take 149.3644 cycles.
i.e. the drift will get right round the circle in nearly 1194 years.
This calculation is not correct. It assumes that the inferior conjunction positions drift continuously back round the circle (calendar). They do not. A given inferior conjunction of Venus only has a position when it occurs every eight years. Hence it is meaningless to say it drifts the full 360 degrees round the circle in 149.3644 cycles. At 149 cycles, it will not yet have reached its starting point. The next time the inferior conjunction comes about is at 150 cycles. At this point it will be slightly beyond that starting point. But since it does not exist in the intervening period, the time for that inferior conjunction to complete the full revolution has to be 150 cycles x 7.993305 years/cycles = 1198.99575 sid years = 1199 sid years minus 1.55 days. According to the latest NASA figures, though, the synodic period of Venus is actually 583.92137 days, making each cycle 2919.60685 days = 7.99330866 sid years. Hence the time to complete one full revolution is 150 x 7.99330866 = 1198.996299 sid years, which is 1199 sid years minus only 1.4 days. It would in fact be exactly 1199 sid years if the alignment position at the end of the 150th cycle were to fall precisely upon its position at the start of the first cycle. Since it appears at a position just slightly beyond this (in the direction of precession), it happens just over a day earlier than the 1199 sid years. Nevertheless, it is quite reasonable to think of this as a 1199 sid year cycle since the discrepancy is less than a day and a half, and those 1.4 days are accounted for by the precession. In fact, one could also consider it to be a 1200 year cycle that comes to an end one year and 1.4 days earlier due to the fact that it is a cycle of precession back through a single year and 1.4 days. When you add that one year and 1.4 days back on again you get 1200 years exactly.
I don't understand other parts of this, such as how the julian calendar comes into an egyptian year (it doesn't!), nor how this led to Venus being accused of paganism! The Aanipada info seems similarly unlikely, and it's not written so I can make head or tail of it. Who suggested this about Aanipada, and is there anything you could point us to to read that will clarify what you mean? Fuzzypeg☻ 08:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it practice for you to remove before you question, on the mere premise it doesn't seem to be to you. I would like to see most members return data they wiped out if they are shown how it is true. But i think this is a case where being rebelliously self-willed comes first, and so giving people the self-appointed right to rule others.
I would like to see if you could just bear with me, and follow a thought. You delight in all your detailed decimal fractions proving ignorant that 4000 years ago no culture is going to be using fractions. It is common knowledge if you bother learing from anyone at all that Venus is regarded as a 584-day calendar (not 583.92 nor anyother lengthy decimal you wish to "correct" that too). That calendar is likewise known to be in Egypt and Maya as 8 egypitian years. (8x365 days) Leap days were not yet recognized by these cultures. This autmatically makes Venus 2 leap days short of every 8 years (5 synodic orbits). Then ignored by these ancients is that in 40 calendar years x365 days (5x8 years) that the Venus date of these 25 orbits (5x5 orbits) will DRIFT two dates back, so 2 drift dates and 10 leap days are 12 Julian dates. No ancient cultures used fragments, they used ATONEMENTS which means corrections. If you go back every 40 years you will have a drift of a month in 600 years of egyptian calendar which itself has drifted 150 leap days. This 180 days is half a year. That is why the 1200-year calendar if you do your research on calendars does exist and it has to be Venus, no other planet. It cannot be 12-year Jupiter whose 7 orbits are 83 years not 84 years. An example of 600 years of 365 days (minus 30 days) is 2369 BC Jan 6 to 1770 BC July 10, another 180 days back will then be 570 BC Jan 11. Get an astronomy program and go see it, dont just say you dont think it true. The 243-year Venus is also known to astronomers. Or are you going to say the Chicago Planetarium doesn't know anything because youre Australian. A conjunction of 2370 BC Dec 27 occurs again on 2127 BC Dec 27. A conjunction on 2029 BC July 1 occurs again on 1786 BC July 1. No one lives 1215 years (5x 243 years) they arent going to see the fractional differences. For you to say 1194 years you are ignoring the 8-year cycle as a calendar, which ancients would not do, 1200 calendar years are 150x 8years, but because they are years without leap days they drift back in Julian dates by 300 leap days, and as stated before the planet position drifts back 30 days per 600 years giving the 360 day retreat. This is why 1200 egyptian years falls in 1199 years, and it is why 1216 egyptian years falls in 1215 years, it has not deserted the 8-year calendar, but YOU have deserted it. You act as if they used your method of fractional math. I would like to know whether your fratcions for astronomy are calculated by you or taken from already recorded modern knowledge. So how is it that you some how expect these same ancient people to use your fractions that 1000 years of scholars had to calculate before you come along and disagree on how it was done 4000 years ago. Venus is given the same Julian date in 1215 years (5x 243 years) as a Sothic method. But the 1199 year method is 1200 egyptian years which occurs 16 years earlier and thus a date difference of 4 leap days. Has detailed algebraic math and geometrical math cuased you to forget simple math?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Elijah Michael (talk • contribs) 15:52, 3 February 2007
This sentence needs evidence to be sufficiently deemed as true, otherwise it may have to be removed.
"When viewed from Earth, successive inferior conjunctions of Venus plot a nearly perfect pentagram shape around the zodiac every eight years."
88.105.93.103 13:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored the section with one blog link. There are plenty of sources of someone wants to write more details about it. I made the original diagram by request a long while ago. I should improve it since its hard to see in small sizes. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
We have
Of those three sentences, the last two imply that the pentagram of Venus resembles, and nearly entails, an instance of a geometrical pentagram.
IMO that will make it valuable to retrofit the first talk section re p of V as a subsection of a (top-level) talk section Talk:Pentagram/Archive 4#Consolidation of talk sections on Pentagram of Venus -- and then move, and subordinate to it, the other p of V sections (prior discussions that it may help to have grouped together), preparatory to discussing the option of moving some of the p of V section of the accompanying article, out to a separate Pentagram of Venus article (replacing the Rdr at that page).
--Jerzy•t 22:07, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
The misnomer "Article namespace" hinders awareness that the term embraces several distinct kinds of pages, including not just articles but (most notably) Dab'n pages. Encyclopedias are written in, but not about, words (and rather about topics), and topics often don't willingly line up with words. "Pentagram" has been allowed to develop without adequate attention to the tool of disambiguation; that could obscure the fact that "Pentagram" (like no doubt too many other pages to enumerate) has so far ignored the distinction.
Specifically, the fairly severe weakness of the resemblance, between pentagrams and the Pentagram of Venus, has been ignored in the development of the accompanying main-namespace page: The pentagram of Venus evokes the shape of a pentagram, but it is not a pentagram in the sense of the whole rest of the the article. (It's possible the wonderful pentagenic 13:8 ratio deserves its own (topic-)article (and/or SIA) that would discuss not just the coincidence of names, but also the parallels in topic-pairs whose constituents may have nothing else in common.)
While discussion is welcome, this fundamental distinction has been completely ignored for years, so i'm doing due diligence by identifying every editor who contributed to the relevant part of the passage, or worked close enuf to it to have plausibly concurred, and notifying them that i am boldly proceeding first with exhibiting a corrected version, and unless and until discussion is in progress, proceeding to correct it, probably including splitting out all, or virtually all, of the Venus content to its own article, and either adding a Pentagram Dab page, or adding a HatNote Dab to the accompanying existing article.
--Jerzy•t 08:10, 6 January 2016 (UTC)