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The Petek was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 17 February 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
Yes, I know that mantra is not a Jewish term, it is a Sanskrit or Hindu term, and some Jews object to it on those grounds. However, it has entered the English language, is universally-recognized, and there is a Wiki page on it, So it make sense to use it here.
Also, the reason there are so many saves by me one after the other at the beginning of the page's history is because my toddler grandson is staying here. To avoid having him accidentally delete my work, I save every time I leave the computer tonight. Better safe than sorry <g> User:rooster613
Na Nach is a name, a song, a phrase (all NPOV). It is inappropriate and offensive to call it a mantra, like calling prayer "magic," or calling Moses a "guru," chas v'shalom. It may fit a dictionary definition but this word is strongly shaded and associated with Eastern religions. Just look at the mantra article, which says, "Mantras (Devanāgarī मन्त्र) originated in the Vedic tradition of India, later becoming an essential part of the Hindu tradition and a customary practice within Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism..." To suggest a Jewish practice has roots in, or owes to one of these traditions (all/most/many of which are considered avodah zarah by Jews) is extremely objectionable to Jews. Please be considerate and refrain from calling Na Nach a mantra. Furthermore, all the examples I saw listed under mantras are Hindu, etc. Does the Shema article call the Shema a "mantra"?! Of course not. Even though it would fit the definition on the mantra page. Five_pillars_of_Wikipedia Pillar #4 says "Wikipedians should interact in a respectful and civil manner." Does this not include avoiding labels that are heavily connotative in an offensive way? Thank you and I will assume this was done in good faith and in non-knowledge of the offensiveness of these associations. Nissimnanach (talk) 02:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
Yoninah -- I didn't remove Mantra category from the article b/c it fit the technical definition, but I see someone has moved it to Hebrew Words and Phrases category -- much better! Nissimnanach (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
I do not know how to do Hebrew letters in Wiki. If somebody reading this does, then please add them to the section explaining the meaning of the mantra. (Leave the transliterations of the names of the letters, for those who cannot read Hebrew). Thank you! User:rooster613
How come there is no final mem, at the end of 'NACHMA'? instead they used reguler mem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.56.169 (talk) 14:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I presume you meant to write 1984 not 1994 here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_Nach_Nachma#Controversies unless this was another letter from heaven since Reb Moshe "ascended to the heavenly academy" in 1986) .:-)
Re: edits by anonymous person User:80.178.15.203 that were reverted to my previous version: This person appears to be a Breslover in opposition to the Na-Nachers. Some of his/her points were possibly valid although not N-POV in style and not backed up by any sources (hence the revert). However, noting the writer's objections, I did modify "popular among Breslover Hasidim" to "popular among some groups of Breslover Hasidim" which should take care of that problem. Regarding forgeries: If indeed somebody claimed the approbation from Feinstein was a forgery, I would be willing to include that opinion under the Feinstein part of Controversies if there is a real reference to cite and not just an anonymous drive-by. Ditto for the same writer's claim that somebody "admitted" to forging the letter in an article in Maariv ten years ago. Who is this "somebody"? If anybody knows the refs. for this article, we could footnote that also. Although we should also note that anybody could claim to have done this to discredit Rabbi Odesser. I'm trying to keep this page N-POV while recognizing that there are controversies. I myself am not a Na-Nacher although I have no real objections to using the mantra, either. Rooster613 14:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
In some mainstream Orthodox circles, the "Na Nach Nachma" is considered somewhat mishuga. Some guys passing out Breslov pamphlets near my school, Yeshiva University, weren't open NightcapNachmaners (people who wear the huge yarmulkes with "Na Nach Nachma"s on them, usually white caps)...they were black-hat, black coat guys. This is considered more authentic by such people. Unfortunately, my source for this isn't a book--but a rabbi, so I can't put in the article, right? I'm new at this.Yodamace1
As for the white yarmulkes, I have one of those, more as a collector's item, although I have worn it on occasion. (Perhaps I should take a photo and add it to the article.) I have always preferred a large knitted yarmulke that covers my whole head. The Na-Nacher version is actually a modification of a traditional white yarmulke that has been worn for centuries in Jerusalem, which in turn is a modification of the medieval hats with the little ball on top -- hence the tassle. People wear them for group identity -- and is that any different than wearing a Zionist yarmulke that says "Yerushalayim" or some other slogan or, for that matter, one with pictures of cartoon characters like the kids wear nowadays? Breslov does not have a dress code (other than halachic zniut, tzitzit, etc.) so there is no requirement to dress in black like the Mitnagdim/Haredim. After all, if Jews wanted to be really, really authentic, we should all wear long robes, since that is how Abraham and Moses dressed. <g> Rooster613 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
Well, I'm not trying to make it a debate forum. And if you're asking about if it's more meshuga the the messianic Lubavitcher belief, that is also considered quite mishuga. I'll quote from the Chabad-Lubavitch page:
Berger asserts that a few Chabad followers hold Schneerson to be God incarnate, and that they worship him as such. Responses from various Jewish spokespeople have been aimed specifically at the last two expressions of messianism. Longtime critic Allan Nadler (2001) and Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller (1998) warn that Chabad has moved its focus from God to Schneerson to the point that they "worship him".
So I thought it might be appropriate, sorry if it wasn't...I don't think there's a mention of the 'NachmanNightcap' in the article, you seem to know a lot about it, maybe you should post about it. Yodamace1
As both a Wiki novice and someone only slightly learned in the significance of the phrase, I can't help but wonder if the the "pop culture" aspects of this phraseology should be explained in greater detail. In a recent trip to Israel, I saw the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman graffiti everywhere (and I've seen it a few times also in the U.S.), as well as on bumper stickers and placards and whatnot. This article seems to indicate that it is insignificant, but it seemed rather pervasive to me... Also, IIRC, there is a reference to the mantra in the Israeli "Bumper Sticker Song" which could be referenced in the article as well.Nolij (talk) 20:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
You put in your edit that Chareidi disparagingly call such Breslovers NightcapNachmaners. I honestly didn't know that, thought I made it up. I'll stop using the term, sorry about that. Yodamace1
Thanks! Shanah tovah! And thanks for the niggun advice. I've been to Kiryas Yoel for a wedding, but that's a bit out of the way...Williamsburg, here I come! Yodamace1
I upladed a scan of the cover of "The Letter from Heaven: Rebbe Nachman's Song" and linked it here. My justification for the fair use of this image is that the book is discussed and referenced on this page. Rooster613 14:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
I reverted the material added by Tanchum in the Controversies section because it is not NPOV, being very disparaging of the people who use the mantra, essentially calling them inauthentic ignoramuses. This was obviously posted by an anti-mantra person as debunking opinion. This is the deleted text:
The Na Nach Nachma phrase, derives neither from any of the writings in the entire canon of Breslov literature, nor from the traditions of Breslov itself, nor the Bible, Talmud, or code of Jewish Law. For this reason, "Na Nach Nachma" cannot be represented as an authentic expression of Breslov doctrine--precisely because Breslov chassidus is based, like any legitimate Jewish movement, on classical Jewish sources. Hardly everyone within what can be called "mainstream", traditionally Chassidic Breslov communities believes that the "petek ha-geulah" is an authentic writing from Rebbe Nachman. Most treat the subject with passive obliviousness. At this point, "Na-Nach" is more of a rallying cry for Israeli and Sephardic returnees to Judaism, although it has caught on amongst some of the disaffected American youth who come to Jerusalem, or people who are not yet familiar enough with Breslov literature to distinguish between what is authentic and what is not.
The points are already made in the article that the mantra is controversial, that not all Breslovers use it and some actively oppose it, that some claim the note is a forgery, that it does not date to Rebbe Nachman himself nor did he use it, that this is a sub-group and not all of Breslov, etc. -- without the negative polemics of this text. It is not the role of Wikipedia to decide what is or is not "authentic" or "legitimate" in theological controversies, only to present the facts as they are. Like it or not, there is a group of people who call themselves Breslovers who use this mantra, and that must be respected in the text. I myself am neither for nor against the mantra, merely watching this page to try and keep it NPOV... Rooster613 19:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
Rabbi Odessa was a Mishulach; he came to the US to collect Tzedaka. He went to Rabbi Feinstein (who, incidentally, was a non-chassidic rosh yeshiva)and asked him for a "hamlatza" letter that people could be presented with, to help him raise money (this is a standard practice of people collecting tzedahka). he showed the letter to rabbi feinstein while meeting him. Rabbi Feinstein's hamlatza does not imply legitimatacy at all; it was merely a polite "and when he was here he showed me something unique he has in his posession"... Ask any of rabbi Feinsteins sons or Talmidim, they would concur. The legitimacy of the "petek" being from heaven is a bubbehmeiseh.. Ther person that inserted the paper addmitted to doing it before his death.gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Again I ask: WHO is/was this mysterious "person who inserted it (the petek)" in the book, if indeed such a thing ever happened? So far, nobody has named a name, it just keeps coming back as hearsay. If there is a real source with a real person taking credit/blame, we can add it to the Controversies, but so far all I see is anti-Odesser urban legend -- in this case, from an unsigned comment by who-knows-who... Rooster613 04:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
just signed my original comment, im still new to wikipedia and i forget someitmes. gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The gentleman who wrote it is Yoel Ashkenazi. 79.180.238.123 (talk) 22:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The Petek has a signature: Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman. So that is who wrote it. Being that there is no other known place of this signature it can not be a forgery (for it is not imitating another signature)! So the only point of contention can be; who is Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman?! There is great evidence that Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman is Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, besideds the fact that NaNach is based on his name, there are also many proofs that this is a representation of Rabbi Nachman's name. Now it is very very difficult to claim, prepostrous, that some stranger claimed the hidden, secret, and unknown identity of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov! Added to this simple logic is our knowledge that great personage such as the Saba, Rabbi Israel Dov Odesser, Rabbi Shmuel Horowitz, Rabbi Shlomo Wexler, Rabbi Moshe Feinstien and many others all agreed to the veracity of the Petek and thus attested to it's authorship by Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman! So there is really no reason to contend with idiotic claims, at least not in an encyclopedia. If Rooster613 you are interested in the theological aspect of Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman that, as you often have cited, does not have it's place in the encyclopedia. No offence meant. Just Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman!Moshenanach (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
(new topic heading inserted by Rooster613 to help focus a long unsigned article by someone who appears to be a pro-Na Nacher.)
Dear Rooster613, it seems to us that you are avoiding the main point. Just because something could be used as a mantra does not brand it as a mantra. As you yourself write anything can be used as a mantra, and almost any activity can be called a meditation. This Nanach has heard people categorizing sports as a meditation, and it could very well be a meditation for some, but that does not define sports as a meditation! Hisbodidus is not an act of meditation, even if many can also use it as such. Shema Yisroel, aside from the fact that it halachicly, as stated by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmum is not allowed to used as a mantra, is not a mantra, it is a holy verse from the Bible which Jews use daily to proclaim their belief in the One All-Merciful God. To define Shema Yisroel as a mantra is ludicrous!
This article begins with the title "History of the Mantra", I have already revised this many times to a more correct title, "History of the Song", Na Nach Nachma Nachman is a song, as explained in the article. If you have an issue with such a title please let me know what it is, and offer an alternative title, but to entitle this article labeling Na Nach Nachma Nachman as a mantra is unacceptable.
The reason why the title should call Na Nach a song, because this is in fact what Na Nach is, a song. This is clearly written in the Holy Zohar (Parshas Pinchas, and in Tikunay Zohar page 51 and in Likutay Moharan Tineena 8:1) and found in many other places.Moshenanach (talk) 22:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Na Nach Nachma Nachman does discredit other spiritual practices and you should mention that in the article. Rabbi Nachman said that his way is completely new, so obviously Rabbi Nachman felt that the comparsins that you are drawing are incorrect. Now it could be that you feel that since you are living in modern times that you are more knowledgable than Rabbi Nachman, but even still since this is an article about Rabbi Nachman himself we should take into account what Rabbi Nachman himself was trying to give over.Moshenanach (talk) 22:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Once again, just because something can be used as a meditation does not brand it as such. Certainly Na Nach will often bring one to ecstasy, and certainly people in ecstasy will be chanting Na Nach, this is the nature of holy songs and prayers. Prayers can be meditations, but we call them prayers, and those that want to meditate on them are more than welcome.Moshenanach (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Hisbodidus is nothing more and nothing less than what it's definition connotates, being alone i.e. with G-d. Hisbodidus is also often used to mean personal conversation, musing, and accounting a person conducts alone, i.e. with G-d. Certainly this can be extended to meditation, but the whole message of Rabbi Nachman is complete simplicity (even though the advocates for meditation may claim that the goal of meditation is to achieve a state of simplicity etc.. Rabbi Nachman's message is of complete simplicity from beginning to end, not having to resort to any methods, systems, and practices). Rabbi Nachman taught everyone how to act on simple truth that they knew in their own hearts.
When someone in distress and great anguish call out to the Holy All-Mericful One God, he has no plans and intentions, just from the depth of his heart he cries out to his creator. That is called simplicity. A mantra, even though it is much simpler than other forms of meditation, is much more complex. Mantra is repeated, the previous example of a person crying out to God, that person does not have any intentions or plans, he is more than overcome by the prediciment he's in, he's not looking to do anything, he's just, simply, crying out to God. This is something very simple to understand, and you must very steeped in your philosophies and complexities to acquiess. Try saying Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman this will help you lose all the intricit sophistications, and to be really simple in front of the Lord.Moshenanach (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
well put Moshenanach! According to what you wrote it is clear as well that Rabbi Nachman did not use the word "Ribbono Shel Olam" as a mantra, as R' Aryeh Kaplan and Rooster613 suggest. Rabbi Nachman said explicitly that during Hisbodidus one should try to come up with new words to present to God, but if one is unable to then what ever he could say he should, even if he will just be repeating himself. Thus it is clear that the person doing hisbodidus and calling out to the One All-Merciful God, "Ribbono Shel Olam" is hoping and praying that the Holy Merciful One will send him new words and he will not have to resort to repeating himself. Thus it is quite clear that Rabbi Nachman was not trying to tell people to use it as a mantra. Although it is obvious that if one will actually be forced to repeat himself in front of God, he will merit to great things, far and above a regular mantra invoker.Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk) 10:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Moshenanach shapir kaamart! NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN IS THE SONG-NAME OF RABBI NACHMAN, IN FORM OF (and in partnership with (LM II 8 et al) THE DIVINE SONG OF THE FUTURE (Tikkunei Hazohar #21, daf 51: "When the sinners are annulled from the world, prayer will ascend in the melody of the four species -- which is the song that is single -- yud; doubled -- yud kay; tripled -- yud kay vav; quadrupled -- yud kay vav kay. In the name of yud kay vav kay, the prayer -- which is the Divine Presence -- rises. The Torah in a song, the Divine Presence in a song, Israel leaves the Exile in a song. As it is written, `Then Moshe and the children of Israel will sing this SONG to Hashem' [Ex. 15]" The labeling as "mantra" is POV and repulsive. May God enlighten your heart to change this. NA NACH NACHMA NACHMAN MEUMAN Nissimnanach (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
I am dividing the discusson into this new topic here, since it seem to have done that anyway. BTW, if we use the word "petek" on the main article, it needs to be defined the first time it is used. Rooster613 (talk) 00:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
That seems ridiculous. If there is a signed approbation from Rabbi Moshe F. why is that not sufficient evidence of his belief?Moshenanach (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The Petek was written by the one who signed it: Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman! Now you may want to dispute who exactly Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman is, but the fact is that Na Nach Nachma Nachman May-Uman is the author of the Holy Petek.Moshenanach (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a general rule that G-d doesn't use unworthy people to be agents of miracles (c.f. the Brisker rav, beginning of Parshas Toldos, that the scoffers wanted to say that Sara became pregnant from King Avimelech, the commentators ask that even still the main miracle was that Sara, who was her whole life barren and now 90 years old, gave birth.
If the people disputing the article believe in the theological priciple, then certainly we can question their claims. So the question is dear Rooster613 do you believe in God and His Holy Ones?Moshenanach (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The Brisker Rav say that this is the way of scoffers, they'll admit that a great miracle took place, but they will take the credit away from the Tzadik and give it to the Rusha). There are countless other proofs, not to mention that the Saba vouched for it testifying to its authenticity and amazing powers. Also Rabbi Nachman says in Sichot HuRan, it is better to be a foolish person who believes everything, and therefor believe in what he is supposed to, rather than being a wiseman who due to all his analyzation refuses to believe in most things, thus missing out on important beliefs. Na Nach is in no way similar to the Lubavitch falsehood proclaiming their dead rabbi as moshiach, which is a belief borderlying on rejection of basic tenets of Jewish belief and logic which even non Jews are required to heed. Someone opposed to Na Nach at worst can call it dubious or meaningless, or possibly G-d forbid a somewhat disrespectful name calling of a Holy Tzadik, but there is no way to associate it G-d forbid with Kfira, therefore certainly one should heed Rabbi Nachman's words in the Sichot, and believe in Na Nach.
No meaning explained in the meaning section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.171.180.22 (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that the concept of expanding a name of a person probably relates to the Talmudic idea of vanishing a demon, by chanting its name continuously, whilst subtracting the last letter, until the last remaining letter is gone, as is the demon. The reverse effect seems to be at play here, a matra to conger up the spirit of Rav Nachman. 93.172.122.215 (talk) 22:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
wikipedia is so terrible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.231.76 (talk) 10:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I forgot to log in before changing "fringe" to "spin-off" in two places. Here is my reasoning: To call something a "fringe group" is to disparage it as not important, unworthy, a bunch of crazies, etc. It is a value judgement that does not belong here. A "spin-off," on the other hand, is neutral, as for example, Deep Space Nine is a spin-off from the original Star Trek series. "Spin-off" indicates that something is a branching-off from the original but without the negative connotations of "fringe." I think we can agree that since Reb Odesser, "revealer" of this mantra, was himself a respected Breslov leader in his day, that the current movement is a spin-off from mainstream Breslov.
There has been an ongoing war here between the supporters and opposers of this mantra. Supporters want to canonize Reb Odesser as the saint of saints, opposers want to discredit him as a fake, etc. Please stop it! The purpose of this encyclopedia is to give FACTS, not be on a [[soapbox]. Rooster613 (talk) 14:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
"Spin-off" may be fine for a secular topic -- it is flippant and disparaging for a religious one. "Fringe" is obviously POV and marginalizing. "Subgroup" is most accurate and neutral, in my opinion. I believe Na Nachs, Breslevers and everyone can be happy with it, for it is even written that Rabbi Nachman said "I will make you into subgroups and subgroups (kitot kitot)!" (Chayey Moharan 319). Nissimnanach (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
I merged the contents of The Petek into both this article and Yisroel Ber Odesser. Yoninah (talk) 11:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Is there any reliable data on how many Breslover Hasidim believe in Na Nach?
I think there is not.
While it is true that most sects of Breslov do not endorse the petek, and some are against, it is not clear what the individuals actually think. It is possible that significant numbers of members of other sects believe in the petek in their individual capacities even if it goes against their sect's official position.
Furthermore, it is unknown how many Breslover Hasidim there are. Breslov is not a well defined group without any official membership. There are many Breslover Hasidim that have no outward Breslov appearance and may not be affiliated strongly with any group. Therefore, it is hard to estimate what percentage of Hasidim believe in the petek.
Since we don't know how many Breslovers are out there, and we don't reliably know what they think, we don't know if most Breslovers believe in the petek. Shalom Dym (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)