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Current content: "Chauvin is seen on video applying pressure with his knee to Floyd's neck while his hand is in his pocket"

Chauvin's left hand is wearing a black glove, and his pants are also black. It may appear to many that his hand is in a pocket. But, on close watching of the entire raw video from bystander smartphone (in the first few seconds, for example)[Video], it is clear to me that Chauvin's left hand is in a fist and resting on his upper thigh. I have heard several commentaries that cite the hand in pocket while lamenting an apparent casual demeanor of this officer.

This inaccuracy should be corrected. Clutterslave (talk) 14:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Fixed. I have added this fact to the article, with a citation to the video. WWGB (talk) 14:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

First it says "On May 30, Floyd's family's legal team confirmed that they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson to conduct an autopsy.", and then "On May 31, the independent autopsy was conducted.". How is the autopsy independent? By that logic, the first autopsy was also independent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anetherion (talk • contribs) 10:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Dr. Wlilson is the director of autopsy and forensic services at the University of Michigan Medical School. That's independent. The county medical examiner is not independent as they work with the police. O3000 (talk) 10:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

"they had hired" as in they were paid to do that. How can you say that is independent? For it to be truly independent, it would have to be performed and paid for by a third party, unrelated to the whole ordeal. Anetherion (talk) 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I would agree, neither are independent.Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Independent is used in the sources and has been used in such cases as long as I can remember. The Michigan Medical School is independent, unless it can be shown that they are paid to lie. O3000 (talk) 11:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

"they had hired Baden and also Dr. Allecia Wilson", they had hired them personally, how is their workplace relevant? 1.) "sources" are not always correct, 2.) it being that way "for as long as you can remember" still does not mean it is the right way. Like I wrote above, unless it is conducted and paid for by a third party, it is NOT independent. Anetherion (talk) 11:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

We go by sourcing, not by personal opinion of editors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Its all rather academic as the second "official" autopsy has called homicide as well.Slatersteven (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I do agree that "independent" is probably the wrong word for it. By definition, the autopsy comes from an interested party. A "private autopsy" was used by the BBC makes more sense, imho. Perennial Student (talk) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by what the majority of sources call it. Try to understand that when the media speaks of an independent autopsy, they just mean a private autopsy independent of the official autopsy conducted by the jurisdiction's coroner, and not independent of an interested party who is paying for it. If there's a concern that this Wikipedia article is misleading the reader, we can ameliorate that by using expanded language like "an independent autopsy paid for by Floyd's family," or even "an independent private autopsy" with cites to both descriptions from the media. The only other thing I would note here is that under state law, the county medical examiner is a "neutral and independent office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law enforcement agency," so we wouldn't say that they aren't independent because they "work with the police," but calling the official autopsy "independent" in the article would probably just cause confusion. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

If the sourcing says "independent", then that's what the article should say. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The law may state that medical examiners must be “neutral and independent”; but there have been scandals related to medical examiner results when police are involved. That’s one reason some people pay for independent autopsies. O3000 (talk) 13:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, there have been scandals in the past, this is why legislatures have added those laws to put ethics restrictions in place. My only point there was that we can't imply here that the county medical examiner "works with the police." AzureCitizen (talk) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Update: I just noticed that someone swapped out the word "independent" with "private" 30 minutes ago, so I've added "independent" back to the lead, such that it reads "An independent private autopsy." At this point, I think it would be preferable to just include both words rather than editors pushing to have their preferred word used while trying to exclude the other. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Private is an odd word since the results are public and the autopsy was performed by a public school. O3000 (talk) 13:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

LOL, which in the UK mean a private school. But it is off as whilst it was privately funded it was not "private".Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

What we've got going on here is a conflation of terms. Whether or not a school is public or private is a different concept (in use of terms) in relation to whether an autopsy was an official autopsy (conducted by the authorities) versus a private autopsy (conducted by anyone else). AzureCitizen (talk) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Private has many different senses; we shouldn't conflate them. To clarify the claim "the autopsy was performed by a public school". Are we sure the autopsy was performed by the University of Michigan? The media reports seem to suggest that Dr Baden and Dr Wilson were hired by Floyd's family's attorneys. Do we know it was done in the official capacity as faculty members of University of Michigan? Or that it was done pro bono (see: "hire" in numerous news outlets). For example, I might hire a moonlighting police officer to bodyguard me; it would make little sense to claim that my bodyguarding needs are met by a "public body". Perennial Student (talk) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, as others have said, lets go with what RS say, and not our own suppositions.Slatersteven (talk) 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Why is there nothing in the GEORGE FLOYD bio section of this article about his past criminal history? He was convicted of multiple things, most notably ARMED ROBBERY which is pretty significant. Why is he presented in an incomplete manner. All across Wikipedia in the personal section OF ANYONE i HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THERE IS FULL DISCLOSURE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW. I think that there is deliberate omission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CiaSmi64 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the reason that it's omitted is because this is about the death of George Floyd, not about George Floyd. Thanks, Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 18:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Then why is there information about his athletic accomplishments? Elvis2500 (talk) 18:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500

There is an RfC about it above [1]. And of course good RS specifically about his death, such as this article in Guardian and many others, do mention this episode. We should significantly expand his biography section and include this info. As you noted, there is no logic to selectively hide any important biographic information. We just say what RS say on this subject. My very best wishes (talk) 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll just add that BBC has also acknowledged this aspect of Floyd's past (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936). Elvis2500 (talk) 19:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)Elvis2500

Someone will probably remove it. I would wait until the closing of the RfC. But just to clarify, according to your BBC source,

His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. He became involved in his local ministry, Resurrection Houston, after his release and was intent on making changes in himself and his neighbourhood, says Mr Lillard. "While he was embracing his own life change, he was looking around at his community" ...

This is an important info to include if anyone wants to understand what kind of person he was. My very best wishes (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

My very best wishes, is what kind of person he was important to understanding this incident? —valereee (talk) 19:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, this is all in the BBC source. One should just read it further: "A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to "come home". His family told the Houston Chronicle he moved to Minnesota in 2018 after being encouraged by friends through a Christian work programme. Christopher Harris, a friend and former classmate, told US media Mr Floyd "was looking to start over fresh, a new beginning". "He was happy with the change he was making," he added.

So, basically, this is someone who was capable to understand his mistakes and make life better for himself and others. This is highly commendable. But without telling that he made mistakes, there is no real person, there is no character. That's why journalists from Guardian, BBC, and other sources described it. My very best wishes (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, commendable, but the question I think was "how is that relevant with regards to his death?" Did any of that contribute to his death? Regards SoWhy 14:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Shadybabs: You've added "Chauvin put his full body weight onto Floyd's neck" directly into the lead, based on a comment in a local City Pages article, not stated in any mainstream reliable sources. That's materially misleading and would have only been possible if Chauvin had knelt with both of his knees on Floyd's neck (to put his full body weight on it). As seen in the video he has one knee on the pavement and one knee on Floyd; you have to sort out sources for NPOV, verfiability, and in this case, WP:WEIGHT (no pun intended; this is not funny stuff). Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I've tagged it. If someone can't produce better sources, it will be removed. - MrX 🖋 15:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

While I strongly believe that the article should address all aspects of the police misconduct, it should do so accurately, and should not use other wiki pages as sources. Either cite an external source and reword or remove. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It would also have been possible if he had managed to balance himself on only one knee and having his other leg off the ground, but that obviously didn't happen either. A physical impossibility definitely needs good sources. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging. Circling back just now, I see another editor has conformed the text to a better source as seen here, so the problem is resolved. I was initially drawn to this issue because the original editor added the unsourced content "Chauvin would continue to forcefully grind his bodyweight directly onto Floyd's neck as he struggled" here and here two days ago. Editors should not be making stuff up like that, especially with people's perceptions inflamed right now. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk)

The second autopsy is saying asphyxiation.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

In general, that's not exactly true. You could put 90 percent of your weight on one knee, with the other knee positioned just for balance. But sourcing is needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

90% is not "full body weight", but the thrust here is that an editor was seeking to characterize the event from their POV, then looking for a source to fit that POV. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes. But if you're only using the second knee for balance, it could be well above 50 percent. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Since links to FB video are now added in article, can we add the macing incident to Arrest and Death/Timeline ? At 4:32 in video, "Chauvin grabs a canister from his belt and sprays towards a witness approaching Floyd, and another witness says 'He just got maced'. Chauvin later returns canister to belt.(at 4:55) Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The link in question is to the primary source without commentary and accompanies the text talking about the primary source being created. What you want is original research, i.e. using the same primary source to add a fact ("witness got maced by Chauvin") which the source does not support (you cannot actually see that). As such, we need a reliable secondary source that actually says so. Regards SoWhy 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Test Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

But the source supports these facts. The actions are audible and visible: Chauvin unclips canister from belt, moves hand towards sidewalk, audio sound of spraying noise commences, Chauvin continues to hold canister while kneeing Floyd's neck, then puts canister back on belt. Why would a secondary source be necessary? Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

If so then why have no RS noticed and commented on it?Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Very good question. I wonder about it as well. Pasdecomplot (talk) 16:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that ends this, as that is virtually an admission this is just your interpretation.Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe... the macing incident can be interpreted by legal professionals as evidence of an intent to kill, and creates a possible liability issue for a published secondary source... Pasdecomplot (talk) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Not an admission to an interpretation. Sorry. Pasdecomplot (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

See "At one point Chauvin reached for his mace to threaten the bystanders while continuing to kneel on the man."[3] QuackGuru (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that is an RS, certainly not for a wp:blp.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Unicorn Riot is definitely not an RS —valereee (talk) 16:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

See "Chauvin keeps his knee pressed into Floyd’s neck and Floyd stops talking. About four minutes into the video, Floyd becomes unresponsive. Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[4] QuackGuru (talk) 16:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

That would be barley enough to say "and one person said he had drawn a mace can", in no way does it support "Chauvin maces witness" or even" Chauvin drew a maces can".Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I made this change. There could be more sources that discuss it. QuackGuru (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I will not revert it, even thought I said it is barely enough to pass muster (see wp:unue). I would suggest finding a few more sources before someone else does.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The article should state whether or not the bill in question was counterfeit. Jim Michael (talk) 11:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a good source yay or nay? Kire1975 (talk) 11:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

There was no investigation confirming anything about it, so no RS. --nafSadh ^{did say} 19:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The article is so much better than before. But, there's an odd defense of Chauvin for 27May which is also inconsistent with the section entitled, Aftermath. Consistency would dictate mention of Chauvin's arrest, "On May 29, Chauvin was arrested." Then fold into same paragraph the fleeing of Chauvin's accomplices using the same date. In the next section, County Charges, details of Chauvin's arrest can still be provided. Additionally, mention of misinformation about Chauvin should be balanced by misinformation about Floyd. Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done - Pasdecomplot, please use this template as directed, i.e. change X to Y. However, in your case I suggest you contribute to other parts of Wikipedia and wait until you meet the criteria to be autoconfirmed. Then, you can make these changes yourself (within Wikipedia's policies ofc). Ed6767 (talk) 15:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

What "misinformation" do we have (or is there) about Floyd?Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven, there's a number (I think the BBC did a good article), but nothing that I can tell as false is in the article currently. Ed6767 (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Care to link?Slatersteven (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Ed6767 There's an "add z to x" in the suggestion: "...the section entitled, Aftermath. Consistency would dictate mention of Chauvin's arrest, "On May 29, Chauvin was arrested." Then fold into same paragraph the fleeing of Chauvin's accomplices using the same date." I appreciate your response. The details in the article are very important. Pasdecomplot (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot, you are misinterpreting the directions. "Change X to Y" means you quote the sentence or paragraph here, then you rewrite it with the change made exactly the way you want it made. It means YOU do the work. What you're doing is asking people to read your mind. —valereee (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks again. Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Would the recent death template be more appropriate than current related template?

Smithr32 (talk) 17:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Smithr32, I don't think so. The effects of this death have gone beyond Floyd's death, as clearly shown in the George Floyd Protests. Ed6767 (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Hatting this as incorrect and inflammatory. No evidence or reference has been produced to say that he maced anyone. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. In Arrest and Death, please add sentence describing Chauvin macing bystander, "Chauvin grabbed his mace when a bystander approached after Floyd became unresponsive." 1[1] 2[2] 3[3]. Still looking for a more complete account of mace incident. Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Not one of those says he maced anyone. Stop now.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Grabbing mace does not mean bystanders were maced. Just as grabbing my gun does not mean I shot anyone, nor that I even produced it. Perennial Student (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) The suggested "text" does not say he maced a bystander. Because the 3 RS don't include the info. Please read the suggested text, which should be added to Sequence of Events, after the words "...the officers about Floyd's condition, urging them to check his pulse.[9]:5:22[60]:6:53[61] OK? As mentioned, looking for a better RS. Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC) They also don't say Chauvin grabbed mace. The first says he threatened to mace the bystanders, the second that a bystander says "He's got mace" and a third that "the cops can be seen grabbing their mace" without specifically mentioning Chauvin. But if other editors are going to add it anyway, no worries. Perennial Student (talk) 20:19, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Note that the LeftVoice cite is an opinion article and unsuitable as an RS. AzureCitizen (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC) I would suggest the confusion was caused by your subject header. Now lets look at those sources one "and threatened to mace bystanders." (In a picture caption), does not support grabbed. Two "officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.” " Supports current text. Three "the cops can be seen grabbing their mace", which clearly is in contradiction with the first two sources, and even your suggested text (which make me wonder if this also is not an RS).Slatersteven (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Slatersteven, pretty sure anything called leftvoice.org is not a reliable source for politics. :) —valereee (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Political leaning (or even bias) re not criteria for not being an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 20:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Slatersteven, I'd argue it is exactly that for their reporting on politics. —valereee (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC) This isn't a political story, it's about law and order, just naturally prevalent in outlets that politicize every story as a matter of course. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the Autopsies section it states "he had tested positive for with COVID-19 on April 2" I would suggest omitting "with" so that it reads: "he had tested positive for COVID-19 on April 2" Bahern70 (talk) 23:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done - removed "with" from the sentence. Thank you Bahern70. -- LuK3 (Talk) 23:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I added a wikilink for Thomas K. Lane, after amending the entry for him at the disambiguation page Thomas_Lane. He has a common name. I think the standard practice is for Thomas K. Lane to be left as a redlink, until an actual article about him is written. It currently redirects here - which I consider a mistake. Geo Swan (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

See https://www.startribune.com/ellison-to-charge-chauvin-with-second-degree-murder/570984872/

It might be a bit early to include this as the charging document is likely to be out in the next day. We cannot yet say Chauvin is charged, but that the attorney general of MN plans to. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

See this has been added, as the charges have materialised. Perennial Student (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I updated language and refs throughout. Thank you! EvergreenFir (talk) 23:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't mind if we bring in a small amount of content regarding Chauvin's wife, including some of the kind things she said of him. We also have "character assessment" content for George Floyd. That material should not be overblown.

However, I strongly disagree with 1) writing her name in the article, and 2) calling her a "Hmong woman" since she is an an American. We might mention that she's of Hmong ancestry or was born in Laos.

I don't have time now but am happy to propose 2 sentences later, if people want this content. -Darouet (talk) 23:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Darouet, Hmong is Laotian for "people" isn't it? Guy (help!) 00:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@JzG: I'm not sure; they're also an ethnic and linguistic group in southeast Asia. -Darouet (talk) 00:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd also leave her out, and also I don't think her ethnicity is relevant at all. In fact, mentioning it smacks of tokenization.--Calthinus (talk) 14:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I would say leave her out, unless she becomes personally involved in some way. Leave out her name, leave out her ancestry. I think WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy applies here. In a way she is a victim here too. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@MelanieN: My inclination would be to leave out her earlier positive comments about Chauvin as well. Would you agree, or what do you think? -Darouet (talk) 00:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Darouet, I agree. I have removed what I think was the one remaining (unnamed) mention of her. She has filed for divorce; she reportedly wants to change her name; she is obviously trying to stay out of the spotlight, and who can blame her? Anybody who gets named in connection with this is going to get harassed or worse. She is not a part of this story and there is no need to drag her into it. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I read earlier that she was already facing significant harassment as a result of this. -Darouet (talk) 03:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The previous content was deleted.

Source says, "Bystanders approach Chauvin and the officer draws something, causing one of the people off-camera to say, “He’s got mace.”"[5]

Slight tweak to previous content: "Bystanders moved towards Chauvin and the officer pulls something out, resulting in one person saying off-camera, "He's got mace."[6]"

The text does verify the officer had something in his hand and someone did say off-camera, someone had mace. I carefully worded it to not go beyond the source. QuackGuru (talk) 21:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The purpose of the above message is unclear. If you are proposing to revert that deletion, you should address the rationale for the deletion made in the edit summary. -- Beland (talk) 00:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I've created WikiProject Black Lives Matter for interested editors. Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you! —Shrinkydinks (talk) 03:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Another Believer, thank you. I'm flabbergasted that this didn't already exist before now. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 18:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, Agreed. Of course there's WikiProject African diaspora and other initiatives like Black Lunch Table, Black History Month, and AfroCrowd, but this is most definitely a long time coming. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks! I have been looking for this! —Evertent (talk) 21:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

This deletion review discussion might be of interest to some of you. Kebabpizza (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Death of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

There should not be a photo of the murderer in George Floyd’s wiki . The man and his family already suffered enough and this is even more shameful of the media . Remove the photo of the cop and leave a photo of George Floyd only 137.25.101.239 (talk) 03:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

That photo is part of the story. It helps in judging the murderer's state of mind. Only if the family requests it should it be removed. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, for more info, please look through the info-boxes at the top of this page. — IVORK _Talk 04:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

For the record, WP:NOTCENSORED does not apply where BLP mandates removal (which is why NOTCENSORED explicitly says Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and neutral point of view) [...]. (emphasis added)) In this case however, the image has been circulated so widely that no further harm can possibly come from having it on this page. Regards SoWhy 13:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The whole point of the article is that it's no longer BLP though right? — IVORK _Talk 22:39, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

IVORK, it's still covered by BLP, see WP:BDP. However, I agree with you that the image should stay. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 18:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

His criminal record from Harris County state his DOB as October 14th 1973, whereas the wiki article says the 16th. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.111.58 (talk) 06:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

OK we need an RS for his date of birth, and one that muszt be him as if he was born on the 16th he cannot be the same person as on the Harris County criminal record.Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Here's a screenshot of his record from Harris County District Clerk's website https://imgur.com/eSg9ri5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.111.58 (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

That is just proof someone called George Floyd born on that date has a criminal record (Including George Perry Floyd, George Lee Floyd as well as George Perry Floyd).Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

If you read the few news stories that dare mention Floyd's criminal history, you will see it does match https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/29/george-floyd-who-was-he-his-friends-words — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.111.58 (talk) 10:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

No mention of DOB.Slatersteven (talk) 11:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Even if, WP:SYNTH forbids taking the criminal record and the Guardian article and using them to establish the DOB from that. Regards SoWhy 13:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Floyd's date of birth is irrelevant to the subject event and his age is sufficient. This is not a biography of Floyd, and he is highly unlikely to be confused with a different black man named George Perry Floyd who was 46 years old on May 25, 2020. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Since the FB video is sourced, can we add the incident where police drag Floyd's body? "Chauvin and another officer drag Floyd's unresponsive body (at 7:56) across the pavement and put him on a board near EMT personnel." Then the EMT lifts the board onto the stretcher. A witness says, "They just dragged him" (at 8:00) while another witness says later to Chavin, "You could have at least lifted him off the ground" (at 9:02). BTW, these time stamps are from the YouTube posted video, since our archived video requires a sign-in on FB (is FB a conflict for archived sources?) Thanks. Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. All I can see in the video is them trying to lift Floyd on the stretcher but needing two attempts to do so. Dragging imho implies deliberately pulling someone over the ground. In the end, it's not really relevant, none of the secondary sources cover this as "dragging", so we would be left again with choosing our own narrative based on the primary source, which is not allowed per WP:OR (see section above as well). Regards SoWhy 14:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The source does support it : you can see Chauvin grab a canister from his belt, move his arm, and the audio track has a definitive spraying sound. Then you see Chauvin continuing to hold the canister in his gloved hand while not moving his knee from Floyd's neck. Then you can see the canister in Chauvin's hand being returned to his belt. All visible and audible. Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

No, that is your interpretation of the source, please read wp:v and wp:or.Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

(The last reply was to another talk topic that mysteriously was sent here, please disregard. Tech problems) So, I examined the video closely, stopped and re-reviewed the information several times. The dragging of Floyd is on the video, confirmed by audio comments. Look again more closely. The issue is the text saying EMT lifts Floyd's body onto a stretcher is not completely accurate, since it omits the dragging and the board before the stretcher. They are clearly included in the video. Pasdecomplot (talk) 15:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Also read wp:rs, you are not one.Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You do and I don't and that is precisely the reason why WP:PRIMARY says Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Regards SoWhy 16:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot, you've been directed to the guideline/policy explanations at Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Original research multiple times by multiple experienced editors; have you read those pages? —valereee (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Obviously not completely. Sorry. Just trying to get all the incidents included in the article. I'll look for RS on the dragging, then stop to read. Apologies to all for the persistence. Pasdecomplot (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Based on the times given in the official complaint, Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck 7 mins 46 secs, not 8 mins 46 secs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pairunoyd (talk • contribs) 11:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The last paragraph of the complaint says "The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total." Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Draft:George Floyd MDM88 (talk) 15:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

George Perry Floyd was a 46-year-old black man who was born in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and raised in the Third Ward[25] of Houston, Texas.[23][26] He played on the basketball and football teams at Yates High School,[26] and attended South Florida Community College for two years, playing on its basketball team.[27][28] Floyd returned to Houston where he became an automotive customizer[29] and joined the hip hop group Screwed Up Click.[30][31] From 2009 to 2014[failed verification] he was imprisoned for armed robbery.[32] In 2014 he moved to Minnesota,[33] where he took two jobs – truck driving and providing security at a restaurant[25] – but in 2020 lost the security job because of the COVID-19 pandemic.[34] He had two daughters in Houston, ages 6 and 22, and an adult son in Bryan, Texas.[35][36] MDM88 (talk) 15:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I've moved this to article space. Let's see what happens. :D —valereee (talk) 17:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If the Floyd infobox already has talk page consensus, my apologies and I'd appreciate a pointer to that discussion.

I removed the infobox on 28 May, with the edit summary "Removing infobox. This is not a biography of Floyd and the infobox contains little or no information relevant to this event..If anything here is deemed relevant, it can be added to the prose, but the screen space required for the infobox is undue." Shortly thereafter I added his photo in place of the infobox, since I feel the photo is not undue.

I now see the infobox has been re-added, and, rather than engage in a slow-burn edit war, let's try for a consensus one way or the other.

The purpose of an infobox is not to memorialize the victim but to provide a quick-reference for relevant factoids that are not in the prose or would be more difficult to locate in the prose. I submit that the current infobox provides two kinds of facts:

• Facts that are relevant to this event but are easily located in the adjacent prose or elsewhere (e.g. full name, date of death, place of death)
• Facts that are not relevant to this event (e.g. date of birth)

If more infobox fields were added, as in the infobox that I removed, those facts would fall into one of the above categories. Even if there were one or two factoids that did not, that would hardly justify the space required for the infobox. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, per WP:PSEUDOBIOGRAPHY. All person infoboxes should be omitted from this article. - MrX 🖋 22:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Removed. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@AzureCitizen: I would have preferred more participation for a more durable consensus, and this discussion was open for only three hours, but we'll see how it goes. I suspect we may be continuing this at some point. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I understand. Feel free to revert the edit if you want, but this infobox is a recent addition. It seems to me that editors should be getting consensus for inclusion rather than the other way around, and the other "Shooting of..." articles don't include person infoboxes like this. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This article still states that Chauvin is charged with second degree murder. He's actually been charged with third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. Here's a copy of the criminal complaint: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6975-derek-chauvin-complaint/cd9e96e708a9b0c8ba58/optimized/full.pdf#page=1 As far as I can determine, that has not changed, so an editor may want to make the alteration. 70.75.197.210 (talk) 18:44, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The criminal complaint was updated. It includes 2nd degree murder (felony murder), 3rd degree murder (depraved mind); and 2nd degree manslaughter.[7] It was updated on 3 June.[8] The original was filed on 29 May. Perennial Student (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 2 June 2020. The result of the move review was endorsed.

The challenge is being covered by reliable sources. Should be added in article? —usernamekiran (talk) 19:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Please provide examples. That does not really sound like something worth mentioning, just some racist idiots fooling around... The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 19:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

No.Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Once a few morons manage to suffocate their mouth-breathing pals that way, then it'll will be worth including. EEng 20:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Check the facts, Before Publishing Suspicious material, whitch Affecto to people's behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.69.164 (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Are there any things in particular that you think are wrong? --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 23:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This was already discussed Ed6767 (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "black man" to "man." Change "white police officer" to "police officer." Lyanna2348 (talk) 15:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

No need to distinguish race. It is clearly seen in the photo. Also promotes division between humanity. Love and peace. Lyanna2348 (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Its a bit late for that, and this is pretty much major part of what happened, hence why BLM got involved.Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

N No... This was already discussed at length and it was decided to include race. Also, how does mentioning race promote division? The division is already there, this is just stating facts. The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I would agree, Lyanna2348, that we should Change "black man" to "man." Change "white police officer" to "police officer" except that Wikipedia merely reflects sources. Bus stop (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

As the saying goes, "That ship has already sailed." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

We are hopeful that something will turn the tide. Bus stop (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully in 100 years we will be just writing about "humans" and "human police officers" (getting along really well). Or even just "sentient" if we are mingling with true AI or ETs by then. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi everyone! So, considering that this article and George Floyd protests both have info that would be of interest to someone reading either article, do you all think we should have a link at the top to George Floyd protests? Something like, For information on the protests surrounding the killing, see George Floyd protests? I think this makes sense, especially considering that this page as about 5 times as many daily views (1 million vs. 200k). Any thoughts? The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 19:14, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with an ((about)) hatnote pointing to George Floyd protests and also to George Floyd. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

At this moment, hathote sounds appropriate. --nafSadh ^{did say} 20:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• The purpose of hatnotes is for aiding readers who might be trying to navigate to a different article than where they've ended up, not to act as an extra-prominent "see also" section. I'll need to be persuaded that a reader searching for this page or a redirect to this page might actually be trying to go to the protests article (a higher standard than just "might find the protests article interesting, too") before I'll support a hatnote. If a hatnote doesn't get added, a link in the first sentence will suffice. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 20:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

These points should be included into article, I think.

• (six feet, seven inches tall and weighed 250 pound)
  • size matters when arresting

• The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that Floyd was charged with armed robbery in 2007, and in 2009 took a plea deal to be sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and after that moved to Minnesota in 2014."^[4]
  • armed robbery with drug use is heavy level criminal.
• Further reports also reveals that Floyd was infected with COVID-19^[5] and shortness of breath is one of its symptoms.
  • Was COVID that very reason (due to breathing issue) not to go into police car? Reason for not to able breath while arrested? In any case COVID was reason for her lost the job and perhaps the running casoline of all this related happenings?

Jack007 (talk) 22:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

He was 6ft4 [9] and his Covid was asymptomatic (same link). Perennial Student (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And 223lbs. Perennial Student (talk) 23:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Suggest we divert the COVID-19 part of this multi-issue discussion (generally a bad idea) to the already existing discussion at #Floyd had Covid-19. Please check the page for existing discussion before starting a new one. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Floyd background: #RFC on Floyd's criminal past. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Jack007, Oh, so it's OK to kill someone if they're big and sick? Guy (help!) 16:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Especially when the hands-on cops are not wearing PPE gear. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:22, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Jack, read the Press release] from the medical examiner:

• Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression

• Manner of death: Homicide

• How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)

And read the actual autopsy report:

• 6 feet 4 inch long, 223 pound male p. 4.

• The decedent was known to be positive for 2019-nCoV RNA on 4/3/2020. Since PCR positivity for 2019-nCoV RNA can persist for weeks after the onset and resolution of clinical disease, the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection. p. 3.

It is not for us—and it is not for you—to speculate. We stick with the reliable sources, not amateur or journalistic speculation. Kablammo (talk) 23:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

This is why his COVID-19 diagnosis from April shouldn't be in this article. You think it's the infection that he no longer had that kept him from breathing, as opposed to the knee on his neck? – Muboshgu (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu I agree with the point in your 2nd sentence. But, conspiracy theorists will believe whatever they want to believe. The risk of people deliberately misinterpreting information is inherent in publishing any kind of information that could give rise to misinterpretation, and media organisations still publish, aiming to spread the facts, with some faith in their readers. In the same way, imo it's not Wikipedia's place to suppress that information when it has been reported on by sources like Reuters. The mention of COVID in the article is already given with a note that the report did not mark COVID as a contributing factor, which should prevent misinterpretation. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 00:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Size does not matter when arresting, a small man trying to fight back can still harm, A Cyclops if it is coming peacefully will not. The rest we have multiple threads on already, and my view has not changed.Slatersteven (talk) 10:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Not necessarily. If you were a cop, would you be scared of an unarmed, 5'1" guy that looked like he weighed a hundred pounds? If you were a cop and arresting a 6'4" monster that looked like he was a football linebacker, you'd be a bit more aggressive in trying to subdue him. Thanks, Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 14:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd was handcuffed face down on the ground. Seriously, what's wrong with you? EEng 16:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Given Bruce Lee I never judge on size alone. Moreover even if that is valid (which as I said I do not agree with), there is no evidence the victim here needed Subduing.Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I reckon Bruce Lee could have kicked the living shit out of Steven Segal despite the size disparity. Guy (help!) 16:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

KInd of my point, I recall (OR alert) stories about its not size, its aggression that counts. One was by a former...for... who said that at then end of the day if someone wants to hurt you they will, size is irrelevant.Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanoscar21, "monster"? Srsly, dude, knock that shit off. Guy (help!) 16:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

JzG, I'm not saying that because he's black. I'm saying that because, I don't care if you're white or black, I'd be scared of someone that's 6'4". I'm dark brown, and I grew up in North Carolina. You've heard of the civil rights movement? I'm not trying to be racist here, and I'm not saying what the cop did is right. I'm saying, I'd be intimidated by anyone who's over 6'3". Also, please watch your profanity. Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 16:40, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The point already clearly made is that he was not over over 6'3" while the cop had his knee on his neck. He was about 10 inches tall, and handcuffed behind his back. Please try to hear what's said to you, and if you find the word "shit" offensive you're at the wrong encyclopedia. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanoscar21, I am choosing my words with great care here. Any time you have to say "I am not trying to be racist here", it's because you come across as fucking racist. Maybe don't do that, eh? Guy (help!) 23:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

They don't come across as racist to me, just really wrong. The whole point here is excessive escalation of force. No matter how big you are, no matter how hard it was to take you to the ground, things change immediately when you're down. Face down and handcuffed behind your back, unable to use your arms to push up, you probably don't need a knee on your neck to stay down. Even if you do, less life-threatening things should be tried first, like two cops holding your legs down and straight. Even a Taser would have been better than that knee. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment on content not users please, nothing is helped by ramping up the tension.Slatersteven (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems we should not include the build/size because it would be speculating that build/size had something to do with the subdual, rather than an RS saying such. That should be the rationale, rather than this talk about who'd beat Bruce Lee in a fight. Perennial Student (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

True, but then no one has produced even a non RS saying size was a factor. So I was just making the point, that we can all speculate.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanoscar21 you may not think you called him that because he's black, but in reality most of us who've been raised in US culture are liable to slot darker-skinned people into different places than we do lighter-skinned people. Let's just not call anyone a monster who hasn't behaved monstrously. Ted Bundy was a monster. George Floyd, from accounts of friends and family, was a "gentle giant." —valereee (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

By all accounts, going into someone's home and threatening them with a gun is pretty monstrous. The commentary is simply unnecessary, however. Perennial Student (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Sigh. Whatever. Let's just not call people monsters, k? It's not actually useful here. —valereee (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, Slatersteven, JzG, Perennial Student, EEng: There's been a misunderstanding. I meant "monster" as in size. To me, Trump is a monster—because he's 6'3". Thanks, Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 21:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You need to learn to choose your words more carefully. EEng 21:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, and as I said, I do not agree. Most of the most vicious people I have known were not gigantic, or even large.Slatersteven (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I have just been on the source cited by https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/derek-chauvin-what-we-know-trnd/index.html . You can find the source here: http://complaints.cuapb.org/police_archive/officer/2377/ . Though it says on our page "hauvin had 18 complaints on his official record, two of which ended in discipline from the department, including official letters of reprimand." that does not seem to be reflected in the source cited by the CNN, which only lists 10 (in which 3 resulted in a verbal warning). Should we change to reflect this? Alssa1 (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

We should use what CNN wrote, not what you found in a WP:PRIMARY source. - MrX 🖋 22:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

CNN says they had an internal affairs spokesperson say 18. Can you quote the part linking that database? Perennial Student (talk) 22:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

• Anything new on this before it goes to archive? EEng 20:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Floyd can be heard repeatedly saying "I can't breathe", "please, please, please", and "please, man", and calling for his late mother.

"Late" was recently added, and I agree with the addition, but I can't seem to find it in the sources cited. Do we have a source? Do we need one inline? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I think late should simply be dropped. They say men (and women, I suppose) call for their mothers on the battlefield, and if they do it's a regression to childhood not connected to whether mom is actually within earshot or even still alive. He wasn't calling for his "late mother", just calling for his mother. EEng 04:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Just quote it, like the other two? After removing "please, man", there's two, I mean. Three "pleases" are enough for Wikipedia, if not for the late "man" (referring to Chauvin, not Floyd). InedibleHulk (talk) 04:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Great idea. I'm on my phone now so please someone else do it. EEng 04:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done at least for now. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 04:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

When quoting him, I don't think "mama" should be capitalized, as it's not a proper name. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

It is being used a proper noun in this context. Note the lack of articles or determiners. Perennial Student (talk) 16:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This isn't the news, this is an Encyclopedia, this article should go to Wikinews. And described how he was killed in the George Floyd article on Wikipedia. --Red-back spider (talk) 22:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Notable events are part of Wikipedia and this is a long standing principle. --nafSadh ^{did say} 00:35, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Is because. White. People. Hate blacks that why he killed. He — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nwaobodo (talk • contribs) 07:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This isn't YouTube, brother, do you want this story on Wikipedia or not? InedibleHulk (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

That, in long form, is "all 50 United States states". Shouldn't it be simply "all 50 United States"? --82.37.129.75 (talk) 04:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Nah, there is only one US, and 50 states. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 08:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I would agree "all 50 United States" just reads weird.Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

America, legally and politically, stopped using "These United States" in favour of "The United States" since the Civil War. Hence, "all 50 US states" is grammatically correct. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 14:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks for the info. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Add "and the District of Columbia". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

All 50 states of the United States is how I'd describe it. Banak (talk) 10:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"All 50 US states and DC" is best, and is the common form used for writing about mainland US territory, since DC is not a state and the manifestations at Lafayette Park/White House were in DC. Pasdecomplot (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• I can't find the passage you're discussing. EEng 15:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it was at the bottom of the main section, possibly edited to 'worldwide'? Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:06, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it was at the bottom of the main section, possibly edited to 'worldwide'? Pasdecomplot (talk) 20:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Let me guess: you think it was at the bottom of the main section, possibly edited to 'worldwide'? EEng 20:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Making editors aware of the draft Draft:Derek Chauvin recently created via the AfC process. I have declined it as it view it currently as WP:BLP1E. I have advised the user to come here and first build consensus for a standalone article. Cheers Sulfurboy (talk) 08:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Which they will almost certainly not get. Currently the officer's name is a redirect to here and that's where it should be. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

There needs to be an article on Derek Michael Chauvin asap and there will be one..I`m surprised there isn`t one already..he murdered someone on a city street in broad daylight and was filmed doing it..that`s reason enough 2600:1702:2340:9470:4408:1A12:9A12:309E (talk) 16:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Not all murderers get Wiki articles. Perennial Student (talk) 01:53, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Would this still be considered a WP:BLP1E if he has 17[10] prior complaints? --Joshua (talk) 08:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, because none of the prior complaints were notable. I would be surprised if any of them even rated a mention in the papers. This is his BLP:1E, and a redirect is where it belongs. Unless some day his presumed trial becomes so notable that it becomes worthy of an article in itself. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

At 1:06 in Darnella Frazier's video, Tou Thao says either "What do you want?" or "What are you on?" Vice, the source cited says "What do you want?" but I thought I heard "What are you on?" Anyone else make out what he's saying?The lorax (talk) 11:41, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

What we think we hear is irrelevant per WP:NOR. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, can people please stop trying to insert their interpretations of videos.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I mean, what he said is either self-evident or not, can you hear what he's saying? If we're citing the video as a source, we're not doing "original research." The audio is slightly muffled so its possible news organizations got it wrong in transcribing what Thao said. The lorax (talk) 12:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

We don't do our own analysis of such videos, no matter how obvious we think it is. Never have, never will. If we wanted to report that someone wore a yellow shirt, we couldn't do it unless reliable secondary sources reported that they wore a yellow shirt. And in this case even you admit that this isn't that obvious. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If two editors in good faith cannot agree what a primary source says, then per WP:PRIMARY you need a secondary source to tell you. After all, if one person says the dress is black and blue and another says it's white and gold, you also can't just say "it's black and blue, just look at it". Regards SoWhy 12:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@SoWhy: Are you sure video even counts as a primary source? Got a link for that? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes it is, as it is a video of the event, not an analysis of the event. The fact that RS say X and you heard Y should tell you all you need to know.Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Per our article Primary source (which is linked from WP:PRIMARY), a primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study (emphasis added). So why wouldn't a video fall under this definition? Regards SoWhy 12:37, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@SoWhy: Ok, thanks for the link and excerpt. Let's be clear on this point, since I don't want to go around spreading false information. We can include anything we see in video that we consider relevant, even if it isn't reported in secondary sources, provided editors don't disagree about what we see? Noting that this point is irrelevant to this thread since something was reported by secondary sources. A momentary off-topic diversion for my edification. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

No policy is clear, no wp:or.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Well that would appear to contradict this from SoWhy. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

No it does not, as he said nothing about "if two users agree". As I said, an RS does not agree with you and you do not trump RS.Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Please, do we have to drag Trump into everything? EEng 21:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Me? Are you confusing me with the OP here, whose argument I oppose? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

OK I shall rephrase it, policy (OR) does not say if two users agree, all potential users must agree. If everyone see's the same thing (beyond any question) yes we can use a primary source, but only if it is sky blue obvious.Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: WP:PRIMARY also says Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. [...] A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, if subject A says "I was born in X", we can use this to verify "A was born in X" (see also WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB). As soon as the information cannot be verified "by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge" or one has to interpret the source, you need a secondary source to back it up. Regards SoWhy 13:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I see you responded in the mean time basically saying the same thing, so my comment is moot. Sorry for the unnecessary ping. Regards SoWhy 13:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

"yes we can use a primary source, but only if it is sky blue obvious".Slatersteven (talk) 13:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@SoWhy: Please accommodate my simple mind and give me a simple yes or no to this question, if that's possible. Any elaboration could follow that as appropriate. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I would say: Yes, we can use primary sources to verify but only if no reasonable editor could possibly challenge any statement sourced to such a source (not necessarily "the sky is blue" obvious but still pretty obvious). But no, we cannot just include anything "that we consider relevant, even if it isn't reported in secondary sources" because it's not our job to decide relevancy. If no secondary sources report something, highlighting it anyway is imho a WP:WEIGHT problem. That's why the only time the primary source is used in the article is in conjunction with the text about it being created on Facebook Live but not to verify anything else. Regards SoWhy 13:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

outdenting for readability Ed6767 (talk) 13:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Newly amended charging document says "on anything". https://www.startribune.com/read-the-amended-charges-against-ex-minneapolis-officer-derek-chauvin/570991071/ EvergreenFir (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

And it was a different officer, saying not quite the same thing.Slatersteven (talk) 04:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Switch from using 24 hours timing to use 12 hours timing OofPoof (talk) 17:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

What are you talking about? EEng 17:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I assume the 24hr time in the infobox. I agree it should be 12hr (That means a.m./p.m., EEng .) It was recently changed to 24hr. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Done. EEng 01:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

This talk page is over 300 kB, can we please change the archive period to 1 or 2 days? --Jax 0677 (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Jax 0677, I agree with you about having a shorter and easier-to-use talk page, but I don't think reducing the auto-archive time will have any effect on the size. Looks to me like every single thread on this page has been edited in the last 48 hours, most in the last 24 hrs, and many in the last 12hrs. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Reply -@Levivich:, if that is the case, then it could not hurt anything to do so. I say let's do it. --Jax 0677 (talk) 21:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

  That's true. I'm certainly not opposed to shortening it. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

  Quiet, Levivich.^[FBDB] EEng 22:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

And it won't help anything either. But later, when things have died down a bit and careful discussions of complicated issues stretch out for a week -- with possibly lapses of a few days here and there -- it will hurt because things will get archived when they shouldn't.

Autoarchiving is for clearly stale stuff, and 1 or 2 days is not clearly stale. Tidy, compact talk pages are great for articles on dusty uncontroversial subjects, but this is a highly controversial subject with a helluva lot going on, and the page is going to be long and complicated if it's to have the discussions that need to be had. There are plenty of experienced editors active here who know how to judge what's ripe for archiving and are doing it manually, and there's stuff that ought to stay awhile to avoid confusion and rehashing, such as the discussion of article title. People shouldn't have to compulsively check in every 23 or 47 hours to be sure they don't miss a discussion completely. The talk page needs to be what it needs to be. It should be made as simple as is appropriate, but no simpler than that, which is what you want to make it. There's no benefit to this at all. Leave it alone. EEng 22:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree with EEng (choke!). Archiving things too early is a problem, and plenty of editors don't have hours every day to devote to Wikipedia. Twenty-four level-2 headings is not a problem of any kind. As I've said to you elsewhere, if 300 kB is too much for your device and/or internet connection, upgrade your device and/or internet connection. But thanks for asking first. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Good, Mandruss, goooood! Your journey to the Dark Side is beginning! EEng 02:35, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

He'll form another resistance, just you watch, dude's all light and no smoke. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Not a good idea per above. A lot is going on and a lot of long discussions are needed. --00:34, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the main photo to a photo of Mr Floyd alive. There is an image of a selfie of his that is easy to find. Violence against Black bodies must not be shown carelessly. 79.70.195.77 (talk) 13:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm OK with that. Not a bad idea. I think the current photo is emblematic of the subject of the article, but sensibilities about the identities of people should also be taken into consideration. So I accept the suggestion that a living example of George Floyd should be in the uppermost position in this article. I previously argued otherwise, and I am going to alter or strike through that earlier post. Bus stop (talk) 13:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

In this edit I have changed my vote to move the current image to lower in the article and to place a living image of George Floyd in the uppermost position. That is a very valid suggestion made by 79.70.195.77. Bus stop (talk) 13:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Whatever I put here ended up being an edit conflict. Trillfendi (talk) 13:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Please see existing thread on the same matter. WWGB (talk) 14:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I made this edit to reduce verbose descriptions of the alleged crime Chauvin is charged with. I rather feel the sentencing guidelines part below it is unnecessary, yet I want to add what attendant circumstances make the alleged assault 3rd degree (significant bodily harm).

How much is too much? the article is already long and I expect this section will be part of the trial articles should a trial occur. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:41, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

EvergreenFir, we could explain what the charges mean in footnotes? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Levivich: That's a decent idea. If no one is bothered by the current length, I won't push it. I just noticed an area that could be reduced. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Something to keep in our pocket then. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to The Murder of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Chang to "The Murder of George Floyd"

And that what people would call it. 104.4.245.179 (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Murder is determined by a court, not Wikipedia editors. WWGB (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Trillfendi changed the term African American [11] to Black and then reverted my change to African American[12]. I generally support calling groups of people what the plurality want to be called. In this case, African Americans prefer the term African American to Black by ~ a 2 to 1 margin. See: https://news.gallup.com/poll/28816/black-african-american.aspx . I suggest we use the term African American.Casprings (talk) 02:35, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

African-American and white American are standard. Language can be counter-intuitive at times. I don't see the fuss. Perennial Student (talk) 02:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I already said... listen to the actual black person here on this. I'm doing you all a favor. Trillfendi (talk) 02:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Trying to, but I don't think you represent all black people. The best data we have is that African Americans, generally, prefer the term African American (if they care at all). See the gallup poll. Does that mean some people prefer the term black? No. But why would we not go with the term that is generally preferred by the group we are attempting to describe?Casprings (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I "represent" my community more so than random people on the Internet. There are literally millions of black people who wholly denounce this term and even get offended by being called "African-American" (but I guess it's more PC than what the government used to call us: "negro"). It's just lazy. The "group" doesn't even accept this term. Black Americans and Africans barely get along as it is. Trillfendi (talk) 03:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Since Floyd can no longer speak for himself, which term does Floyd’s family use to describe him? WWGB (talk) 02:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I oppose any reasoning not based on usage in reliable sources related to this case. I have the energy to say that, but not to do that research. As unreliable as Google Search is for these things, even that is useless here because it includes "black" in search results for "African-American" and vice versa. I suggest that someone with more energy look at every one of the sources currently referenced in this article and compile the results for reporting here. That would be good enough for me. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:54, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

"Black" is preferable because it is shorter. Bus stop (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

NB African Americans and White Americans are titled such; it is clear that the inconsistency (African but not European) is perfectly acceptable. Perennial Student (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what we think or what some of us might prefer. We have to follow the Reliable Sources. Per Google News (which is our main source here, this is not yet a matter for books or academic articles): African-American plus "George Floyd": 10 million hits [13]; Black plus "George Floyd": 62 million hits [14] -- MelanieN (talk) 03:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

P.S. As for this article, by my search we say “African-American” 10 times and “black” 30 times. I think we can leave it as a mix and not try to become consistent. In some cases we may be using the term that the referenced source used. But in the first sentence of the lead I think "black", as it currently says, is appropriate. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

You searched for African-American (hyphenated). African American has 71 million hits on Google News. Perennial Student (talk) 03:28, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Not if you use quotes around "African American", as you should if you are looking for that actual term. That produces about 10 million hits.[15] -- MelanieN (talk) 03:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

So more used in news articles, consistent with the consensus of the articles on African Americans, and African Americans seem to prefer it. Why wouldn't we be consistent all the way through the article and use African American?Casprings (talk) 03:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I take it you didn't read my comments above. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Concur with Mel. Searching Google News for "African American" "George Floyd", "African-American" "George Floyd", and "black" "George Floyd", "black" has 7x the hits as the other two. I agree we should use "black" in the lead, but using AA in the body is fine too. Contra the 2007 Gallup survey results, a 2013 report by Gallup says respondents generally have no preference. [16] Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think MelanieN has provided a good comprise for this debate. Compromise is give and take. As several sages once sang, "You can't always get what you want..." (Rolling Stones).

Let's leave the article as it is. Of course they might not really be sages, only musicians :o) ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:59, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I want them to turn "black". Also, Google's numbers represent nothing. Go to the last page, probably a hundred or so results each. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This is true: I get a little over 200 results each. Still, "black". Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 05:13, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• White dude here. I say we go with what people of colour prefer. Is African-American now seen as a reminder of slavery? And an implication that they are not American-American? I can see why that would be offensive. If so, I need to change my usage. Capitalised Black is preferred now? Help me out please. Guy (help!) 07:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey, America prefers "people of color", screw U, buddy! No offense, though. As a white dude captured non-savagely by Ojibwe as a child, I believe in a "colour wheel" where everybody is either generic red, white, black or yellow, no exceptions. But I'm not preaching it, just saying. Most Americans go lowercase "black", from what I've read, and discourage "yellow" for many good reasons. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:51, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Mmmmm! I am rather tempted to soapbox... if RS mainly use black so should we.Slatersteven (talk) 09:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey everyone! I'm glad Floyd's adjective got changed to "black" rather than "African-American." However, shouldn't we change Chauvin's adjective to "white" instead of "white American"? Unless you want to have "black American" and then "white American." Seems a bit clunky though, we say later in the article that they're both from the US. The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 12:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Black lives matter, not African American lives matter. Most say black because its got less syllables, and because white people are called white. A google news search has shown the majority of news sources used "black", therefore we should use it also. Dream Focus 14:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, I am 100% with you on that. I was just talking about changing Chauvin's adjective to just plain "white," this has been done since I made the comment though. The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 19:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment this is not so simple as "black" vs. "African American" as there is also "Black", and on top of that all three terms have slightly different meanings (black: a "race", African Americans: Americans with descent from Africa, Black Americans: the specific ethnic group hailing from the Lower South that is known for inventing jazz music and so forth, which does not include recent immigrants from African or Caribbean countries though they often over time assimilate into the Black American community). Might be best to just go with what each RS says for the sentence it is cited for... but I don't know.--Calthinus (talk) 22:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Hit the nail exactly on the head. There’s an SNL joke about Charlize Theron on this. Also look at someone like Rami Malek...people have spirited debates about whether he is African-American (semantically, yes, he is... but you see the problem here?) Trillfendi (talk) 23:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This is an issue that has been going around and around for decades, well before Wikipedia. At one time we were told that the polite term was "Negor", then "Black" and "African American, with flip-flops between the last two and with segments of the community rejecting each as derogatory. I don't much care what term we (TINW) use, but I would like for Wikipedia to pick one term after discussion, put it in the MOS and then stick to it regardless of any subsequent changes in political correctness.

Just to illustrate the absurdity of our language usage, *ALL* of us originated in Africa. People with skins lighter than mine are routinely called "black" and people with skins darker than mine are routinely called "white". Race in most of the world is a social construct that has no rational connection to genetics and no relevance to anything except prejudice. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Keep a mixture RS use a mixture of terms that may or may not have various shades of connotation, reflecting the wide diversity of passionate beliefs and discourses about race that exist in the US. WP should reflect that rather than trying to impose our own consensus about which term is better.

Also, a methodological note: the overwhelming majority of Web pages that discuss George Floyd will also include the phrase "Black lives matter", so it's not exactly appropriate to interpret the number of "george floyd" + black hits as instances of some form of George Floyd, a black man.... FourViolas (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The first sentence of this article has been way, way too long. I've tried to shorten it for the second time [17]. Before my change [18] the first sentence included seven commas and a semicolon. That's just not necessary. This is the introductory sentence of an article, not EEng's talk page. -Darouet (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agree that the following is way too long (refs removed, since this is not about refs):

On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill, died in Minneapolis, Minnesota after Derek Chauvin, a white police officer, pressed his knee to Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes while Floyd was handcuffed face down in the street; two other officers further restrained Floyd while a fourth prevented onlookers from intervening.

Simply poor writing. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Count your blessings. EEng 17:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Seven commas and a semicolon? Does EEng think punctuation grows on trees?! Darouet and Mandruss, perhaps you could comment on the first sentence without insulting your colleagues' user talk pages or writing? You thought it was too long, you shortened it; what is the point of this thread? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I hesitate to speak for the OP, but I believe the point of this thread was expressed by I've tried to shorten it for the second time. If I were in the OP's place, I would want to avoid a third time, and a fourth time, and a fifth time. Hence the point of this thread. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Got it: seven is too many commas, one is too many semicolons, and twice is too many times to edit the same sentence. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, needlessly long. If an idea is complex then break it down, don't make complex sentences. Not the first time EEng and I have disagreed about long lead sentences... ;) Popcornfud (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

But then you haven't published in the Mark Twain Journal, I'm guessing. EEng 17:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I think if we were to compare our various publishing histories, it might explain a few of our respective biases. ;) Popcornfud (talk) 17:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I have little doubt it would. EEng 18:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Keep it simple; this isn't a philosophy paper from 1932. Perennial Student (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Simple. Simple sentences. Simple bite-sized tiny disconnected ideas strung out in row. Yes. EEng 17:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Unhelpful exaggeration. Yes. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Now, now. Temper. EEng 18:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• I really have to laugh at a concoction like

  George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, died after white Minneapolis, Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee to Floyd's neck

being inflicted in the name of reducing the dreaded comma count. Why didn't you write ...

Black 46-year-old man George Floyd died after white Minneapolis, Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee to Floyd's neck

... ? That would save even more commas! EEng 18:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

In my view this is far more about sentence length than comma count. In another of my views, our target reading level should be no higher than about 10th grade – and sentence length is a big part of reading level. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

... according to simplistic theories from old PhD theses, anyway. EEng 18:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Educate yourself. Plenty more where that came from, if you're interested. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the ol' Gunning index from 1952, Coleman-Liau from 1975, ARI from 1967. Like I said. EEng 20:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And the Earth has been spherical for over 2,000 years. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And the Mark Twain Journal should be right out.

@Levivich: not meant as an insult to anything EEng has written or done here — I posted because my prior effort to fix was reverted (I don't know by whom). As to my reference to EEng's talk page, I was merely searching for a length reference editors would intuitively grasp, e.g. a meter, a parsec, a farce, etc. -Darouet (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Darouet, ah, sorry, I misunderstood. Everyone knows EEng UTPs are common units of measurement used by astronomers to describe distances between galaxies. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

We're all friends here, of course. Except maybe Mandruss. EEng 19:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC) Just kidding, Mandruss.

Friend or enemy of no one. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

First, a caveat: IMHO we should not dumb it down. However, I agree that some sentences and paragraphs are too long and should be shortened or split. Long sentences in the lede are sometimes unavoidable, but not in this case. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• I, for one, upon considering the current state of this article, arrived, after much time, to the conclusion that, despite our best efforts, there is room for improved, though caution is warranted. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Kudos in order for your ingenious seven comma sentence. --nafSadh ^{did say} 00:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Several Republican county chairs in Texas have been sharing conspiracy theories about this event (either claiming that it was “staged” by the “deep state” to bring down Trump, or that George Soros paid the cops to kill Floyd). See [19]. They have faced calls to resign over it; given their high profile it seems notable enough to include. 97.116.88.75 (talk) 14:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

We have an article for that List of conspiracy theories‎.Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Not clear to me that this shouldn't be included somewhere, if only in one of the several subsidiary articles that are or will be growing around this one. EEng 16:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

MayBe, but I am not sure here, as it is just distraction.Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Posting that kind of אשפה here does nothing except to dignify it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

No, if presented right it helps expose it for what it is. EEng 19:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a big IF. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I think we deal with it. Ignoring it is a nonstarter IMO, it just looks like bias. BB, it's not a big if, IMO. That's why we have millions of editors: so we can figure out how to present things correctly. —valereee (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually it won't be long now before we need George Floyd conspiracy theories 20:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Not really notable. Thats like me saying George Floyd was born during the Yom Kippur war in 1973. Its a non-sequitur. Also according to a conspiracy. Dr. Suess was a racist. --Fruitloop11 (talk) 21:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a non sequitur, it would be a false proposition. A non sequitur is an argument. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 11:00, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

A lie is not a conspiracy. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Put any misinformation into the relevant section. Banak (talk) 10:53, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not convinced this belongs at this time. There is always a lot of crazy stuff for any major event. If it wasn't simply "calls" but prompted actual resignations, I might be more convinced although even then I wonder if it might belong more in the protests article (as the calls for resignation are can reasonably be called part of the protests). It would also help a great deal if any of these people were notable. The red links (won't actually link due to BLP) make me think they aren't. Heck even their role doesn't seem to be notable e.g. Bexar County Republican Party Chair. If you disagree, well hint hint WP:AFC. Nil Einne (talk) 15:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I have been doing some digging into what that means. Most news sources merely repeat that X was cause of death and Y were "other significant conditions". According to an ME Dr Judy Melinek (in a blog), it means "conditions contributing to death" and "They are there on the death certificate because those findings, in the opinion of the medical examiner, would have made his death more likely."[20]. Blogs are not RS, so I won't include this. Just pointing out here it's something that needs to be clarified. Perennial Student (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It's short for "Other significant conditions not contributing to death" (or "not related to cause of death"). These are in a separate section of a death certificate, under the one about causes of death. I'd paraphrased it to "non-fatal conditions" earlier, stayed clear for a few minutes. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The word "significant" implies some degree of relevance to the death. For example "arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease" seems obviously relevant to a cardiac arrest. The ME is not telling us how relevant these things are. -- Netwalker3 (talk) 02:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

It is true that the independent autopsy report totally contradicts the ME's report. We have noted that, as we should, but what we cannot do is a WP:SYNTH of the two reports to say what we think was the cause of death. -- Netwalker3 (talk) 03:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Whatever the word seems to mean to you, the entire standard phrase means what it always explicitly has: pathological findings most worthy of note, but not immediately or proximately causing death. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:19, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

According to the CDC guidelines on autopsy reports, "Part II is for reporting all other significant diseases, conditions, or injuries that contributed to death but which did not result in the underlying cause of death given in Part I." Any wording in the article that explicitly denies that these "other significant findings" contributed to death would be misinterpreting the autopsy report. -- Netwalker3 (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That's about death certificates, not autopsy reports, maybe close enough. I don't see how something contributes to death without resulting in the underlying cause, but admit the CDC uses words in mysterious-but-official ways sometimes. I need a vacation and a deeper dive into Hennepin County norms, consider my objection null for the foreseeable future and keep up the good work! InedibleHulk (talk) 07:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I guess we will only really get the minutiae at the trial. See you in 2 years' time, lads. Perennial Student (talk) 14:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Can't vacation, mosquitoes are nuts. But I found what appears to be the bible of American fatality. It's called Physician's Handbook on Medical Certification of Death and clarifies the fine line between contribution and cause better than I can retype, Google it! InedibleHulk (talk) 23:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Dude died due to assault. Other significant conditions: if he hadn't died of assault he'd have had a headache. That really is where we're at here. But hey, this is Wikipedia: provide reliable independent secondary sources that say these things are significant, and we can talk about it. Guy (help!) 16:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I added that fentanyl causes severe respiratory depression from the footnote of the ME autopsy report.[21] The footnotes appear to be pro forma, which caused EEng to claim the comment was cherry picked. This cherry was picked and specifically noted by the Washington Post[22] and many other news sources. I believe the inclusion provides context to fentanyl intoxication's "other significant conditions" finding, which is why it was included in coverage by several reliable sources. Perennial Student (talk) 17:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

It's not a footnote to the autopsy report, it's boilerplate pasted into every toxicology report (by the outside lab -- not the medical examiner) about every substance detected in whatever quantity. And it doesn't say fentanyl causes respiratory depression, it says the fentanyl toxicity causes respiratory depression, and there's no indication in the report of fentanyl toxicity, just the presence of fentanyl. I understand that some sources chose to call this point out, but there's a place for editorial discretion so as not to mislead the reader, and this is such a place. EEng 17:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This really is cherry-picked. The list of possible side effects of aspirin is very lengthy and includes coma and death. O3000 (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I do agree it was cherry picked. That doesn't mean it's not significant for context. But the RSs are timid and do not explore why fentanyl toxicity might be significant to the audience; hence, leaving it to the audience to infer the reason they included the footnote. That is the issue with the coverage of the autopsies. I think we'll not have decent coverage until the trial begins. Perennial Student (talk) 18:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no evidence that it is significant; and including it in an encyclopedia implies it is. Leaving it to the audience to infer the reason for inclusion in the report when we know the reason is that it's just part of a boilerplate blood/urine analysis is highly misleading. Hell, I had IV fentanyl for cataract surgery last year. It's common. BTW, if you're a hypochondriac, don't read the warning labels on common, OTC drugs. They're scary. O3000 (talk) 18:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I am sure the ME who put fentanyl intoxication as a significant other condition on the autopsy report is a bit of a hypochondriac too. Perennial Student (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Please indicate on what page fentanyl toxicity was listed. EEng 19:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Perennial Student, or maybe it just isn't relevant. Because, you know, if someone hadn't knelt on his neck for the thick end of nine minutes, he'd have been fine. Guy (help!) 16:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

My point here is that the side-effects of a drug linked expressly to the death are probably significant to the death. Whether that is demonstrated in the inexpressive autopsy report, or something we can publish, is another issue. Perennial Student (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

And my point is that you referred to the ME who put fentanyl intoxication as a significant other condition on the autopsy when, in fact, the ME said nothing about fentanyl intoxication. Nor was fentanyl linked expressly (our even implicitly) to Floyd's death. You need to be more careful. EEng 20:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Wrong.[23] The ME did mention fentanyl intoxication. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perennial Student (talk • contribs) 20:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

... which would be a devastating comeback, and embarrassing to me, had the press release you just linked been among the sources you cited in the article, which it isn't, or had you cited it anywhere in this discussion until now, which you didn't. And it's hard to know what to make of that document, being undated (among other things). Does it reflect the medical examiner's final findings?

In any event, the original objections stands: picking some point out of the boilerplate footnotes routinely pasted in by the lab is just as much WP:SYNTH as reading out side effects from the PDR. EEng 21:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Everyone who has been active in editing this article knows about the press release from the ME. So there is an express link clearly established between fentanyl and death. Hope that clarifies things. Perennial Student (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't know about it, and I am far and away the most active editor on the article (by edit count anyway). And if, at this late date, you think that document supports the idea of an express link clearly established between fentanyl and death then we're beginning to veer into WP:CIR territory. EEng 22:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Edit count, shmedit count, real editors go by authorship %. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

You know how Michelangelo said his task was to chisel away the extraneous stone so as to release the hidden beauty within? That's what I do with articles. People on the authorship roster supply the blocks of stone. EEng 15:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

You work with the materials that you have using the techniques at your disposal. Bus stop (talk) 15:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

We don't draw conclusions. And, that conclusion is very wild. There are long lists of possible side effects of every drug. The fact that one sounds relevant is meaningless. O3000 (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

There were no conlcusions drawn in the source, the edit, or this conversation about a conclusive link between the toxicity signs and the death. But I don't wish to belabour the point. I came here to spark a discussion about the source. If people find that it's cherry picking and we need a better source to interpret expressly the ME report, I am on board and happily agree. Perennial Student (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

A conclusion need not be conclusive to nonetheless be a conclusion. Glad you're willing to go along. EEng 21:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't forget "seizures, hypotension, coma and death" if you don't want to seem like you're singling out respiratory depression on account of all this breathing talk in the news. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Why not directly quote from the ME's press conference, cite it and then give the background on what is routinely footnoted, without drawing any conclusions, at least until the actual autopsy is available? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 00:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This wasn't in the press conference, some reporter (for AP, not WaPo, and admittedly confused by cardiac arrests and viruses) snipped it from the toxicologist's notes. And the actual autopsy is over, the public was barred. But the actual report is already released and linked at the end of the opening sentence above. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:40, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat. black, bloody, or tarry stools; coughing up blood or vomit that looks like coffee grounds; severe nausea, or stomach pain; fever lasting longer than 3 days; swelling, or pain lasting longer than 10 days; or hearing problems, ringing in your ears. Heartburn; drowsiness; or headache. Bleeding in your stomach or intestines. Alcohol may increase your risk of stomach bleeding. Overdose can result in rapid breathing (hyperventilation), dehydration, double vision, feeling faint, drowsiness or confusion, bizarre behavior, unsteady walking, and coma. These are the side effects of Aspirin. O3000 (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

We do have the autopsy report, which says this was a homicide, with cardiopulmonary arrest following law enforcement subdual (being subdued), restraint, and neck compression. Kablammo (talk) 01:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The press release clarifies there were "other significant conditions". An ME has published her analysis of the published info and provides these conditions made the death "more likely".[24] Per the thin skull rule, this doesn't change whether or not this was a homicide. You take the victim as you find them. Plus, the "more likely" contribution might be very minor. Perennial Student (talk) 02:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

These conditions might also seem more ikely to have caused the death in some other doctor, lawyer or Joe Q. Public's opinion, so "good to note" for posterity, per the handbook I mentioned earlier. It spells "OPINION" in all-caps, and no other word, so it wants that to be clear (I think). Did you know retired Stone Temple Pilots co-pilot/Hennepin County decedent Scott Weiland received "significant" contributions from Big Tobacco and Asthma Type Thing? InedibleHulk (talk) 03:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Please do not speculate on the impact any fentanyl may have had. That is WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. If, and only if, reliable sources say anything about it would we consider including it. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The second link from the top has some anonymous AP writer "quoting" severe respiratory depression, but "not" seizures, suggesting he or she is "emphasizing" something. AP is generally "reliable". But for a health story with two corrections a decent health reporter shouldn't get wrong, exceptions might be made. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Please remember the Capital Letters. (I personally don't understand all of the journalistic semantics.) Àshe Ilaama99 (talk) 03:16, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Only famous people get assassinated. WWGB (talk) 04:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

wwgb But fame is relative. A person unknown to the general public can be 'famous' to an assassin. In their mind. Pasdecomplot (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, right. Chauvin thought Floyd was famous and assassinated him. WWGB (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

What?Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Pasdecomplot—in what sense would George Floyd be "famous" to the police officers involved in his death? Bus stop (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Suggest adding relevant background on George Floyd. This makes him look like a saint. Please add the past involvements with the law such as armed robbery where he put a gun in a pregnant woman’s belly and the multiple other arrests for lesser offenses. 107.126.121.11 (talk) 23:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the ((edit semi-protected)) template. This is already being discussed above at Talk:Killing of George Floyd#RFC on Floyd's criminal past and that RfC has not been closed yet so... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

George floyds criminal record was not included — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.149.118 (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

See the RFC.Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Your article shows a picture. Please give us the name of the person who took the original video. It is an essential document in this whole story46.193.2.153 (talk) 07:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)Eric Tevoedjre erictev@gmail.com46.193.2.153 (talk) 07:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Click on the photo and you will get your answer. WWGB (talk) 08:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• https://slate.com/technology/2020/06/wikipedia-george-floyd-neutrality.html

---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

YOU NEED TO CHANGE THAT TITLE.

You make it sound like George Floyd was a menace to society. Instead of saying "Killing of George Floyd", you need to title it for what it REALLY was

"The Murder of George Floyd"

Because that was it was. Murder.

They killed him.

)) 2600:1012:B04B:3B14:5D20:647B:BC2F:D3B0 (talk) 21:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

There has been no legal determination that it was murder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Killing of ... is already a strong title and WP:NPOV while also accurately describing what have happened. This was a bold (and a right) editorial decision taken by the great Wikipedia community. The phrase killing of does not in any way indicate anything about how George Floyd was a person. You might be confusing the word killing with executing. Murder is a legally defined term and no court have ruled yet about whether it was a murder or not. There is a moratorium for a month on title change and we should look at it more carefully when appropriate. --nafSadh ^{did say} 23:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Both autopsy reports declared it a homicide, which means the taking of a human life, but does not necessarily equate to murder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Even the WCCO noted that Frey, who is pushing the reform agenda, signed a "temporary restraining order."Mancalledsting (talk) 20:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it matters which specific form of injunction was issued--we don't need to specify "temporary". Because this was a stipulated TRO (it was agreed-to by the parties), it's extremely likely that it will be replaced with a permanent injunction of some type. I think we can just say "restraining order". For the same reason, it doesn't matter the details of the mayor approving it, or the judge approving it, or that it would take effect immediately. Because it was stipulated, all of that is rote procedure, never in doubt. The "point" is that it was agreed upon in the first place. The procedural details are minutae. In fact, the fact that it is a restraining order is itself, I think, an irrelevant detail. The WP:TENYEARTEST version of this content is that the city made police reforms a couple of weeks after the death. The specific legal procedure by which the reforms are enforced (restraining order) is minutae. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

"...while Thao stood nearby" (at the time Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck) is not completely accurate, for the following reason:

Clearly visible in this eyewitness video, Thao opens the back of the police SUV, looks for an object, finds the object, then hands this object to Lane (the officer holding down Floyd's legs), who reaches his hand out to take the object (which may be a pepper spray canister) from Thao. Thank you for devoting your attention to this detail. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 01:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

It is notable that the neck restraint is allowed in accords with section 5-311 of the Minneapolis Police manual: [25].

According to USA Today:

The way a Minneapolis police officer restrained George Floyd before he died — placing his knee on Floyd's neck while the man lay on his stomach — is widely discredited by law enforcement experts because it can cause suffocation. But the technique is allowed in Minneapolis. ... the Minneapolis Police Department allows the use of two types of neck restraints as "non-deadly" force options for officers who have received the proper training.[26]

This should be mentioned in the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Seems valid, but I seem to recall that the way this was done was not in accordance with even Minneapolis' procedures.Slatersteven (talk) 12:45, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

The article should mention as a qualifier Paragraph C of PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.: "Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)", and note that the victim did not appear to be resisting for the duration of the neck restraint. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 01:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

And various doctors are completely discrediting the so-called prone restraining position, which will cause physiological harm. Also, doctors and nurses agree that constant pressure to the major artery at the neck by Chauvin - and possibly in the hip by Kueng and leg by Lane - can also definitely cause murder. So, there's a discrepancy between medical professionals and USAToday/MinneapolisPD. Pasdecomplot (talk) 22:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

USA Today isn't endorsing the procedure and cites criticism of it. They are saying it is allowed according the the police code--not that it should be allowed. Jason from nyc (talk) 00:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I think more sources are needed before this is placed in the article. One source in isolation does not seem sufficient. Are there other sources that discuss this? Steve Quinn (talk) 01:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jason from nyc:. I removed the material from the article [27]. Even in this thread it has been mentioned that this might not be correct. Multiple independent reliable sources are needed to place this in the article, especially because it is controversial (or contentious). So, there needs to be consensus for restoring this material. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 01:53, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Steve Quinn:The knee-to-neck move is banned by several major metropolitan police departments, but Minneapolis police allow police to restrain suspects' necks if they're aggressive or resisting arrest. [28] Jason from nyc (talk) 03:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jason from nyc: But Floyd wasn't aggressive or resisting arrest according to RS and according to a video when he was first handcuffed. So saying Minneapolis Police allows this maneuver in this Wikipedia article is misleading at best. There is no reason for placing this in the article that I can see. It doesn't carry sufficient WP:WEIGHT. So, we will need a consensus for placing it in the article. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:37, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

No, that's exactly what reliable sources are saying. The neck restraint is allowed but the officer wasn't right to use it in this case. It's not my POV or yours but what the reliable sources are saying. They believe we need to know that this method isn't categorically ruled out but wrong in this context as you just said. Put it back and improve it if you believe more needs to be said. Jason from nyc (talk) 03:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, the CNN source seems to indicate the policeman who had his knee on Floyd's neck did not do it correctly. In the article it says, "The method used to restrain Floyd doesn't fit neatly into either of those categories, Stoughton said. "This is not a neck restraint," he said of the position Floyd was held in during his arrest. "It's not just putting pressure on someone's neck. It's really dangerous.". So this is another reason for not uncritically putting this information in this article. This makes that information even more WP:UNDUE and misleading. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:45, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Fine, explain that reliable sources say the next restraint isn't categorically disallowed but this isn't how and when it is done. They are explaining that it can be used. Your surprise seems to indicate that it is important and RS are right to report it. Jason from nyc (talk) 03:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

This is not a significant fact. How is it I am indicating this seems important? I am indicating the opposite. That it does not belong in the article. It is UNDUE based on the nuances presented: Floyd was not aggressive or resisting arrest. Where does it say he was aggressive and resisting arrest?

"Surveillance video from outside a Minneapolis restaurant appears to contradict police claims that George Floyd resisted arrest before an officer knelt on his neck." [29]. Evidence points to the contrary.

And it doesn't matter that it can be used because there is a lot of other stuff that goes with it. Only those who are properly trained are allowed to use it. It only supposed to be applied for a very short amount of time. Also, when placing a detained person in the prone position it is only supposed to be for a minute or two, otherwise there is a danger of asphyxiation.

Please read the article that you posted. All this is right in there. It is not supposed be prone position for nine minutes and not with a knee to the neck. How is it that we are supposed to place the information you are proposing in the article, without all the nuances surrounding this? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, it has been widely condemned according to the source you posted [30]. So, really, we need to have a consensus on including it or not including it. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

"Video doesn’t appear to show George Floyd resisting arrest as cops claimed" [31] along with 5 and 1/2 minutes of video showing that he did not resist arrest and according to the article:

Surveillance video does not appear to show George Floyd, who died after being pinned down by Minneapolis cops, resisting arrest — which police had claimed — in the moments before the deadly encounter. Floyd, who was black, can be seen on footage from a nearby restaurant Monday complying with cops as he’s led from a vehicle, CBS News reported. With his hands cuffed behind his back, he appears to be ordered to sit on the ground, which he does, video shows. The footage contradicts police accounts that Floyd “physically resisted officers” after he exited his vehicle. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Then that should be in our article. I gave two reliable sources that devote whole articles explaining that a neck restraint can be proper and why the Floyd case is not one of them. You repeat the discussion. That this is an improper use of a neck restraint should be explained in the article. Why are you arguing with me that it is improper? I never once asserted it was proper? You are attacking a straw man to leave out info from reliable sources just because you don't like it. Jason from nyc (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that none of the sources depict Floyd resisting arrest, making a restraint hold another form of excessive force. In this case, excessive force lethally applied. If the exact restraining technique used by Chauvin, Kueng, and Lane is not allowed, then it is misleading to include the language unless the language is very specific in explaining the technique's improper and lethal use. Pasdecomplot (talk) 09:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It is not categorically disallowed so it has to be explained why it is not allowed in this case as you just explained. Jason from nyc (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Not really a strawman. I fail to see the need to have this in the article at all, which I probably said already. Just because some RS covers it, doesn't mean it needs to be included. The topic is about the death of Floyd not about "neck restraint". What difference does it make that "neck restraint" is permitted for Minneapolis PD, when "neck restraint" was not was implemented? This was the cop's own version of restraining a detainee. This was not a by the book "neck restraint".

This should probably not be called a "neck restraint" because that is not what it was, according to procedures and training prescribed by Minneapolis PD - and according to input from experts in the RS that has been presented. My only question is, why is it so important to have this in the article? Just answer me that.

If we are willing to show this was not by the book and show all the flaws and deficiencies that have been noted above in this particular scenario, in a section of the article, then finally I say OK. Would you mind presenting a version here so we can go over it? I'm sure you'll cover all the bases. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 13:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The sources are explaining to the general American audience that a neck restraint is allowed in Minneapolis, something that is surprising to the reader as I was surprised. Thus, it is the details of context (he wasn't resisting) and manner that makes this an improper use. We might need a whole section or paragraph to explain the opinions of experts in the sources of what was wrong with its use here. The wider question, of why a progressive city like Minneapolis allows any usage of this restraint that has been abolished and discredited, is a question that has not yet been discussed in the sources. I wish we knew. It is important that while such a barbaric restraining method is on the books, our sources still support the charge that it was improper to use or improperly used. We should reflect the sources for a complete picture as they currently possible. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

At this point, I agree that a section, or a paragraph, or a couple of paragraphs are needed for a complete or concise explanation to cover all the basis. I agree with how you summed up the situation. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll be away for the rest of the day. Would you mind proposing a paragraph? I tend to be very terse, which is why I think that I am sometimes misunderstood.Jason from nyc (talk) 15:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Another reference with stats on Minneapolis usage of neck restraints: [32] Jason from nyc (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

This is shocking as well! I'm thinking we could go ahead and create a separate article on Minneapolis PD use of neck restraints and the surrounding commentary about it. Of course we will include the actions that led to Floyd's death. We can have a summation of sorts in the article linked to that new article. Heopefully, I will be able to get to it today. Besides regular stuff to take care of, I pulled a muscle in my arm so I have to be circumspect about typing on keyboard. I will see what I can do. Too bad it happened now. Actually I started feeling it yesterday. Too much keyboard typing seems to ultimately cause more pain. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 19:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• OK. I have started a new article in my user space here. Of course the title can be changed, I just wrote one that seemed relevant to get it started. Feel free to present sources or add content. We have flexibility because it is in the user space right now. However, I am thinking of simply creating a stub to begin with for the main space. And add more there. I don't know we will see. I can feel it my arm right now. But maybe it's worth it!. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 19:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• Well, I'm going to back up a little bit. There may not be enough for an article, at the moment. However, I will go ahead and write blurb for this article. In the sub-sub-subsection below will be my proposed text. Here goes. Ouch! (no pain, no gain) ---Steve Quinn (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Neck restraint

• Note: "Neck restraint" could be the section title.

• Note I'm not finished yet. The source I am citing for the below paragraph is this: [33]. I'm guessing you will recognize it from above. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Note There are plenty of sources via Google search [34]. Here are three more sources at the moment USA Today, CNN, PolitiFact. I am guessing the proposed text will be at least two paragraphs, maybe three. Two of the sources are from the above section.

Proposed Text:

• This first paragraph (below) needs to be paraphrased - however, not WP:close paraphrasing. This is the source [35]:

Minneapolis police officers have a record of administering neck restraints at least 237 times since the beginning of 2015.^[1] This includes 44 people who were rendered unconscious. Several law enforcement professionals said the number of unconscious individuals as a result of this maneuver seems remarkably large. Neck restraints are defined by police "as when an officer uses an arm or leg to compress someone’s neck without directly pressuring the airway."^[1] As depicted on video, a policeman named Derek Chauvin applied his knee to George Floyd's neck while Floyd was handcuffed and lying prone on the ground. Such force was applied "for eight minutes — including nearly three minutes after he had stopped breathing."^[1]

The use of the choke hold maneuver known as a "neck restraint" has been derided by more than a dozen law enforcement officials, who were interviewed by NBC News. The news organization provided a summation of their views: "the particular tactic Chauvin used — kneeling on a suspect’s neck — is neither taught nor sanctioned by any police agency."^[1] A Minneapolis city official said, "Chauvin’s tactic is not permitted by the Minneapolis police department."^[1] In general, police departments' application of assorted types of neck restraints, described as choke holds, are decidedly circumscribed - if not plainly illegal. However, the online version of the Minneapolis Police Department’s policy manual authorizes the application of neck restraints "that can render suspects unconscious."^[1] Also it seems this protocol was last updated eight years ago.^[1]

Applying a knee to the neck of a man lying on his stomach is widely rejected by law enforcement professionals because it can cause suffocation.^[2] At the same time, keeping a man in a prone position, with hands cuffed behind his back is meant to be of very short duration and is seen as dangerous because breathing is immediately restricted in that position. "Someone in that position can draw enough breath to gasp or speak in spurts, but they can't breathe fully, so they gradually lose oxygen and fall unconscious." ^[3] The individual has to be quickly rolled on his side, sat up, or stood up. Pressure on a detainees neck can "cause fatal damage" ^[3] so the maneuver must be monitored closely for the well-being of the detainee. According to the Minneapolis department's manual, specialized training is required to use this maneuver. According to Minneapolis police policy this maneuver can only be used when as a last resort when there is no other way to subdue a suspect who is belligerently resisting arrest. Chauvin's actions exceeded his purview.^[3] Steve Quinn (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

That's excellent, quite impressive. This gives excellent background and context, as well as describing the details of Floyd's death. Jason from nyc (talk) 02:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jason from nyc: Thanks. For your information it is now posted in the article [36]. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Steve Quinn: It's definitely valuable, but it mostly goes into policing practices by the police department. It's too lengthy and unrelated to be in here imo. Perhaps better suited at Minneapolis Police Department under existing Misconduct and internal affairs section? ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 02:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@ProcrasinatingReader: I really appreciate your interest and thank you for your input. I really like the idea of having similar information placed in "Minneapolis Police Department under the existing Misconduct and internal affairs section." Unfortunately, I don't agree that it is too lengthy and unrelated to be in this article. I have to say that I think it is highly relevant. I don't mind somehow developing a consensus about this either way, if you like.

Having said that, I don't see a problem with having similar information in the other aforementioned article. And I believe it is not uncommon for different articles that are somewhat related to have similar information allocated to the appropriate section(s). So, what do you think of this? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd still like to see mention of the prohibition^[4] against using the neck restraint against passively resisting subjects and the litigation^[5] history. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Reply to Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul. Your interest is much appreciated and thanks for your input. I'm reviewing your references. I think the lawsuit is really good information to know about. Especially since part of the settlement agreement was Minneapolis' pledge that it would provide "additional training for officers in how to restrain suspects more safely." At the time, the lawyer for the Smith's "assumed the police department would follow through with the training, but now he's not sure."

At the moment, I'm not sure which section that could be placed in this article. There is no one actually criticizing the use of neck restraints which is what the "neck restraints" section would need (I think). That the Smith's won the lawsuit about excessive use of force (prolonged knee to the back) tangentially implies that indifferent behavior by some police officers has not changed in over ten years. This has once again led to someone's death. Also, in the "neck restraints" section, it has been noted 44 deaths were caused by use of the "neck restraint" maneuver.

All this probably demonstrates Minneapolis didn't follow through on its pledge for additional training for officers. Pertaining to the other reference, I am looking at the blurb in the Police Manual you mentioned and trying to see how to integrate it into the "neck restraint" section. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Straw man

And, where is the strawman that you are seeing? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:16, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

You are arguing that it is improper with which I wholly agree. I'm not saying it is proper. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not excluding the possibility the explicitly described as 'white' police officer, who is charged with certain degrees of murder and manslaughter, acted (partially) out of racial motives. However, I find it strange that the three other police officers, all also fired because of this tragic death - some according to the coronner sat on the back of the deceased, are not also explicitly described according to their race or skincolour? I have seen their pictures and names and they were clearly a 'diverse' bunch, one (Tou Thao) is an asian/Hmong american , the third (J. Alexander Kueng or Thomas K. Lane) seems of mixed african and european descent, the other of those last two is probably also a white american. Seems to be a bit more complex than mere anti-non-white racism, or perhaps it signals that the problem is more with the way police operate instead of the claims of pervasive and systematic racism.

Dg21dg21 (talk) 07:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Dg21dg21, you'd need to take that up with the sources. Virtually all news coverage describes Chauvin as white and Floyd as black or African-American. Most I have seen mnakes no reference to anyone else's colour. Given that it was Chauvin who killed Floyd, I guess that's the one that's considered significant. Guy (help!) 07:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

But this very article mentions these other three officers, see section 'Persons involved', and there the ethnicity of the victim is mentioned (again), that of the suspect is not mentioned again, but those other three folks are not described in that way. They were not fired for nothing! Dg21dg21 (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Racism is not just a white thing.Slatersteven (talk) 08:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

We also don't know that this incident was racially motivated. The race of the primary officer involved and the victim is still relevant based on the perception that racism was involved. The race of the other officers is also potentially relevant, as I have seen a number of Asians specifically being critical of the Asian officer who was involved. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

What Guy said. Do what sources do, and Stop Thinking. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Telling someone to "stop thinking" is almost never good advice. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

That's what you think. Perennial Student (talk) 21:37, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Given WP:OR and WP:RS, specifying the race (whatever that means) of the other police officers based on the visual evidence would be problematical. If there is a news article that you can quote then it would probably be reasonable to do so. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

This is not used to describe the officer in any of the given sources. The CNN source given uses "white" only in relation to "White House", and describes the officer with "former Minneapolis Police officer Derek Chauvin". In no case does it use 'white' to describe the officer. Wikipedia using 'white' is unsupported by (currently cited) sources. Additionally, most (currently not cited) sources do not prefix him with 'white'. We're all aware that the police officer was white, this much is obvious. I've checked mainstream media sources, almost all of them (eg CNN, currently referenced, CBS, The Guardian, ABC) do not use the label 'white' at all in their articles. I tried to find examples using white; Washington Post used it in the article describing the charge, and ABC used it before they had him identified by name (while he was still an unknown officer). The Guardian used it later in an article, seemingly referring to a context where he was not identified (the next sentence talks about how the next day named officers were arrested. For these reasons, I'm of the opinion that using the term 'white' to describe him, in the very first sentence of the lead, and violates WP:NPOV and also currently WP:V, due to no source given. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 22:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I did more digging and found some more articles using 'white', in their initial reports by CBS. I think one of these should be added to the citations if Wikipedia wishes to continue using 'white', as the current citations don't use the label, but it could be cherry-picking sources and show bias. As far as opinion goes, I think the white label has a place here, just perhaps not in the lead. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 22:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Quoth EvergreenFir: I feel like I've had to do this a dozen times before on other articles, but here we go again (emphases added):

1. ... the killing of an unarmed black man by a white police officer. BBC
2. "The bystander video that circulated widely on social media Monday night shows a white Minneapolis police officer pressing his knee into a black man’s neck during an arrest, as the man repeatedly says “I can’t breathe” and “please I can’t breathe.” - NYTimes (archived version to avoid paywall)
3. "...after a viral video showed a white police officer putting his knee on the neck of a black man, who later died." - Washington Post
4. ... Mr. Floyd, a black man, who died after a white police officer pinned him to the ground with a knee to the neck. WSJ
5. ... the white police officer seen on video kneeling against the neck of a handcuffed black man who complained that he could not breathe and died in police custody. AP News
6. ... the death of an unarmed black man seen in a video lying face down in the street, gasping for air and groaning, 'I can’t breathe,' while a white officer knelt on his neck for several minutes. Reuters
7. "Video of the incident shows that a white police officer had a black man pinned to the ground next to the back tire of his patrol car with his knee on the man's neck." - NBC News
8. ... George Floyd, a black man who was seen pinned down in a video by a white police officer and later died. ABC News
9. "The video, captured by Darnella Frazier, begins with the man, who is black, groaning and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" to the officer who has his knee on the man's neck. The officer is white." - CBS
10. "The mayor of Memphis said Thursday that he shares the frustration of protesters angry with the death of a handcuffed black man during a confrontation with a white police officer in Minnesota." - Star Tribune
11. "In widely circulated cellphone video of the subsequent arrest, Floyd, who was black , can be seen on the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back while Officer Derek Chauvin presses him to the pavement with his knee on Floyd's neck. The video shows Chauvin, who is white , holding Floyd down for minutes as Floyd complains he can't breathe. The video ends with paramedics lifting a limp Floyd onto a stretcher and placing him in an ambulance." - Boston Globe
12. Floyd, an unarmed black man, died on 25 May in Minneapolis after a white police officer, Derek Chauvin, knelt on his neck for nine minutes while Floyd repeatedly complained that he could not breathe. - The Guardian
13. "An FBI investigation is underway and four officers have been fired following a fatal encounter Monday between Minneapolis police and an unarmed 46-year-old black man named George Floyd. ... Overnight, video of the attempted arrest circulated on social media. Posted by Darnella Frazier on Facebook, the nine-minute video shows a white officer pressing his knee into Floyd’s neck behind a squad car. While lying facedown on the road, Floyd repeatedly groans and says he can’t breathe. “He’s not even resisting arrest right now, bro,” one bystander tells the white officer and his partner, in the video." - CBS Local
14. "Four Minneapolis police officers have been fired following the death of an unarmed black man in police custody Monday night." KMSP Fox 9
15. ""We are once again traumatized by the tragic scene of a black man pleading for his life at the hands of a white police officer," Smith said in an emailed statement. " - KSTP local news
16. "Police officers near the Minneapolis 3rd Police Precinct on Tuesday during protests against George Floyd's death. Floyd, a black man, died after a white officer, Derek Chauvin, knelt on his neck for more than eight minutes." - Insider
17. ... George Floyd, a black man who died after a white officer pinned his knee against the suspect's neck as he struggled to breathe ... Fox News
18. "Floyd, 46, died after a white Minneapolis police officer, Derek Chauvin, kneeled on his neck for at least seven minutes while handcuffing him." - The Daily Beast

Nearly all RSes say "black" and "white", which is why we do. We beat this horse to death already in Archive 1. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

See over here, had been tested positive post-mortem: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/06/04/George-Floyd-autopsy-shows-he-tested-positive-for-COVID-19/1001591241694/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by CommanderWaterford (talk • contribs)

It was not considered a factor in his death, so does not warrant mention in the article. WWGB (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Floyd being a member of a hip hop group wasn't a factor in his death either but we include it - it's background info. I half-wonder if the covid thing might be worth mentioning, but people might construe that it was a factor in his death - unless we cite a RS explicitly saying it wasn't. I don't feel strongly about including it. Popcornfud (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree—it could be mentioned in the article. Bus stop (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance to his murder, and I would wholeheartedly support removing the hip hop material which is also irrelevant. - MrX 🖋 12:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Why remove "the hip hop material"? Bus stop (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't get the logic there either - not everything in the article needs to be directly related to Floyd's death - it's sensible to include brief biographical accounts of the people involved, their jobs, families etc. Popcornfud (talk) 12:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, Popcornfud, yes, it needs to be at least relevant. In this article we are discussing his death. We can put the hip hop stuff into an article about him, but here it's trivia at best. I get the argument for his arrest record being mentioned -- don't agree that it's really relevant, but I get it since the death was at the hands of the police -- but I do not understand at all the reasoning behind mentioning his music interests etc. Look at it this way: if there were an article about Floyd, an actual bio -- which is possible will be created eventually -- would we even consider pulling this stuff in from it? Or would we simply leave it in the bio and pull in only those things that were relevant? I believe we'd leave the bio stuff in the bio and only pull in that which was relevant to his death. —valereee (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - if we had a separate page for Floyd we'd definitely have the biographical info in there and we wouldn't need it in this page. But does that mean, until we have that separate page, we keep the biographical info in this article instead? (I have no opinion there, yet.) Popcornfud (talk) 16:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Wait and see whether anyone he had contact with (including the cops) come down with the virus. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The reader can be understood to want to know who George Floyd was, Popcornfud. I don't know why we would deprive the reader of information found in most sources. Bus stop (talk) 12:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

i fail to see the relevance.Slatersteven (talk) 13:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

"What has a trunk with no key; weighs 2,000 pounds; and lives in the circus?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The mother in law?Slatersteven (talk) 13:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Where do you draw the line between what is relevant and what is not relevant? Bus stop (talk) 14:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Did it have anything to do with what happened.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I said above, we include biographical details about the people involved - basic info like birthdate etc - that is not directly related to the killing. So unless you want to exclude those entirely too, we do need to draw the line somewhere beyond "did it have anything to do with what happened". Popcornfud (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If you care to check, that is just what I have said, more than once.Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd isn't a cipher. He had interests. He had experiences. And most importantly, sources are telling us about his life. I'm questioning the impetus to omit information that is prominently found in impeccable sources. As you know this general question has come up again and again on this page. Bus stop (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

unless you want to exclude those entirely too - I do want to exclude those entirely too. But I don't get everything I want, and excluding that cannot be a prerequisite to excluding this. The existence of bad stuff never justifies the addition of more bad stuff, and such reasoning inevitably results in a snowball-effect proliferation of bad stuff. Avoid slippery-slope whataboutism. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Mandruss, I understand. But I meant the question literally, not rhetorically. I was pointing out that the issue depends on a broader question on whether any biographical information is relevant here in the first place. If you don't think it does, then the covid issue has no place in the article at all, so that's the first thing I'd check. Popcornfud (talk) 16:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I understand that you're wanting to resolve the larger question first. I can sympathize, but pending such a resolution (which will not occur on this page), it's perfectly fine to oppose irrelevant bio information on a piecemeal basis. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely it is and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. So my next question is "why exclude this one bit of info?" Slater has said it's irrelevant, and if one wants to exclude all' info that's not directly related to the killing, then that makes sense - but if one doesn't, then what distinguishes this from other bits of biographical info? What makes this bit of biographical data less relevant? I think these are sensible questions to ask. Popcornfud (talk) 16:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

That is exactly the kind of reasoning I opposed in my first comment. Nothing makes this bit of biographical data less relevant, and that kind of linkage is counterproductive and detrimental, as I tried to express. If you're not getting me by now, it's time to quit. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, I guess I'm not getting you... time to quit! Popcornfud (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

It is not relevant, at least not yet. Given the cause of death and the sequelae of Covid-19 it may become relevant, at least as a defense argument. But we should not speculate or repeat speculation. Kablammo (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Is UPI even a reliable source? Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 14:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, as is the Star Tribune."George Floyd autopsy shows he tested positive for COVID-19" Kablammo (talk) 15:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Include I disagree with some comments above: this is relevant. It's true that people might misconstrue this fact as having contributed to his death, and that would be deeply false, in my view and I think I read in the papers this morning that it wasn't considered a factor in his death. However: Floyd was killed in the middle of a historic pandemic, and his test result is a part of the autopsy results more generally, and therefore a part of the history of this incident. It's possible to write this information into the article in some brief way (e.g., "a postmortem test showed that Floyd had contracted COVID-19 some weeks before he was killed; experts stated this had no impact on his death...") that makes a conscious effort not to mislead readers. -Darouet (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The autopsy report says: "The decedent was known to be positive for 2019-nCoV RNA on 4/3/2020. Since PCR positivity for 2019-nCoV RNA can persist for weeks after the onset and resolution of clinical disease, the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection."[37] Which suggests it's entirely irrelevant to the death. Perennial Student (talk) 15:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• Meh. Article's too long already, I don't think we need this trivia. Guy (help!) 16:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• We have already seen an editor juxtapose this test result with breathing difficulties. In fact, the ME stated that it was noncontributory, and that he was asymptomatic. There is no relevance to the result. Kablammo (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• The reporting I read on Floyd's Covid said testing in early April found traces of the virus, and that he was then asymptomatic. It is early enough in the study of the virus that we may still find that previously infected individuals, who licked the virus, are still infectious. However, this does not seem to be the case.

That test in early April may indicate he had already licked Covid. Covid can be very dangerous, but, apparently, some infections are so mild a person does not even realize they are/were infected.

I completely agree the Killing of George Floyd article is far too long. The less important detail that he had survived Covid does merit coverage, because it has been widely reported, and some reporting got it wrong. But, in my opinion, Killing of George Floyd should be split. There are already several other articles, related to the killing. Missing is a standalone article specifically about George Floyd. The standalone article specifically about George Floyd is the place to discuss his survival of Covid infection, and any other pre-killing medical conditions. The standalone article specifically about George Floyd should not cover his killing other than mentioning it in the lead paragraph, followed by a ((see also|Killing of George Floyd)).

I know, for various historical reasons I never really agreed with, we usually name articles like this about the event, not the person. But, if there are meaningful reasons to do that, this is too big. Doing so has crippled us with an omnibus article of unmanageable size. Rather, its size is unmanageable given how frequently new developments need to be included. Geo Swan (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@WWGB: Re Special:Diff/961396560, what's the problem with saying "...after merchants' security camera footage and videos made by witnesses contradicted that claim, all four officers were fired."? Here's what the sources say: NYTimes: "...all of whom were fired after video of his death emerged the next day...All four officers were fired from the Minneapolis Police Department after video of the fatal encounter emerged." Star Tribune: "After seeing the video, city leaders quickly condemned the police actions and Arradondo fired the officers." The order of events was: May 25 Floyd killed; on the morning May 26 the police released a statement saying he was resisting and that officers noted medical duress (nothing about a knee on the neck, etc.); then "hours later" the videos started circulated that debunked this'; later that day, after city leaders saw the videos, the officers were fired. I didn't really understand your edit summary. I didn't read the sentence as saying that the firing was a consequence of the resisting, but rather a consequence of the videos being circulated widely. What's the issue with reporting that sequence of events? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Omitting the qualifying clause, the original statement asserted "Police initially claimed that Floyd had resisted arrest ..., all four officers were fired". This infers that the firing was a consequence of the (disputed) claim. It is much better to separate the claims (and counter-claims) from the firing. The police were fired for violence, not for making claims. WWGB (talk) 00:14, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

People who get infer and imply mixed up MAKE ME LOSE MY TEMPER! But anyway I can't tell... is there still an outstanding issue here? EEng 03:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng, yes and no. I'm going to archive this thread. We should circle back to the second paragraph of the lead, but that can be done in a new thread. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:56, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

This recent arson arrest fits in properly with what Walz and Frey have been claiming.Mancalledsting (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I moved the text over to George Floyd protests in Minnesota. This arrest for alleged arson is more about the protests than the killing. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The knee was on his neck not for almost 8 min but for 8 min and 46 seconds 68.191.157.169 (talk) 03:11, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I undid the good faith edit. There are WP:RS which estimate the time to be 7'46". See AP article cited in the edit. The video started after kneeling began, so, it was at least 7'46". However, 8'46" is most recognized duration of the assault. --nafSadh ^{did say} 03:40, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I note that independent reliable sources are more reliable than the criminal complaint. (If we took criminal complaints as reliable sources, there would be no presumption of innocence, a blatant WP:BLP violation.) Most of the reliable sources I've seen that say that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for 8:46 minutes cite this to the criminal complaint (eg, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-investigation.html). Many, many reliable sources republished the AP article saying the length was 7:46. It seems that the length of 7:46 comes from the timestamps cited in the document’s description of the incident, and 8:46 was originally an error. See also, 8′46″#Origin_of_the_time_span. userdude 04:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC); edited 04:06, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I completely understand your POV and I'm ambivalent/undecided wrt which is the correct duration. Right now 8'46" seems to be the consensus, not unanimous and can possibly change. I'd wait for the next consensus before making this change on lede. --nafSadh ^{did say} 04:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

What would be needed is a valid source that says, "Oh, by the way, it's actually 7:46." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: See the AP article linked above.

But the timestamps cited in the document’s description of the incident, much of which is caught on video, indicate a different tally. Using those, Chauvin had his knee on Floyd for 7 minutes, 46 seconds, including 1 minute, 53 seconds after Floyd appeared to stop breathing.

userdude 19:30, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

UserDude, that quote doesn't say it's actually 7:46. That quote says "the timestamps cited in the document's description" is 7:46. It doesn't say the timestamps in the document's description are correct. And, we know they are not correct, because we can watch the video and see that Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck for longer than 7:46. But our own observations aside, I don't see the AP saying that the timestamps in the charging document are correct, nor that 8:46 is incorrect. I'm not aware of any other RS saying that, either. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I think I misinterpreted the AP article. An NY Times investigation seems to imply that not enough information has been released to know how long Chuavin's knee was on Floyd's neck. Anyway, the prosecutor's office will probably explain the discrepancy eventually, either by responding to the AP request for comment or releasing additional video. (I'm sure Fox will be delighted to report that Floyd was only murdered for eight minutes.) userdude 19:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

 Already done Jack Frost (talk) 08:47, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Here's a statement from the UK police leaders[38]

It starts with a statement from a local chief constable but further down you see one starting: "This morning UK police leaders have come together and published a statement about George Floyd’s death.

Chief constables from forces across the country, the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the chief executive of the College of Policing and the President of the Police Superintendents' Association have spoken following the death of George Floyd and the events that have followed in the United States.

“We stand alongside all those across the globe who are appalled and horrified by the way George Floyd lost his life. Justice and accountability should follow."

Obviously people will want to read the rest for full context. This has been covered in the media, you'll find sources easily by searching. Doug Weller talk 14:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Why is this relevant?Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Whether it's included in the reactions subsection or not (seems a bit puffy to me)... that fact is the impact of his tragic death has reached the farthest corners of the world. When is the last time a major city's authorities / politicians / leaders have come together in solidarity for an American subject? Probably never. Trillfendi (talk) 14:41, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, [[39]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

"I, like my chief constable colleagues, am shocked and deeply saddened as a career police officer by the apparent unlawful killing of George Floyd." He is "shocked and deeply saddened as a career police officer". Well, of course. There is nothing unusual about this. His profession is sullied by this. All law enforcement feels the same. No cop is proud of what Officer Chauvin has done. I'm not a big fan of including this as it merely states the obvious. Bus stop (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that one of the issues is that (in the US at least) this is far too common and that many people do not think "it merely states the obvious", in fact Chauvin's police union chief backed him.Slatersteven (talk) 15:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Whether it is "common" or not is a matter of opinion, and a matter of perspective. The US is not known for police corruption. Bus stop (talk) 15:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

True, but RS may be saying that is not the public perception [[40]], [[41]], [[42]]. I could post ore.Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

This is hardly surprising. A policeman in Great Britain has said "What I have witnessed bears no relationship to the values I have held dear as a police officer throughout my service." Bus stop (talk) 15:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

There must be a misunderstanding here, this isn't a police officer speaking, it's "Chief constables from forces across the country, the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the chief executive of the College of Policing and the President of the Police Superintendents' Association." Doug Weller talk 18:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Still not seeing what the relevance of Senior British police officers views are to a situation over which they exercise zero jurisdiction.Slatersteven (talk) 19:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

"Policing is complex and challenging and sometimes we fall short. When we do, we are not afraid to shine a light on injustices or to be held to account." This is pretty bland stuff. Bus stop (talk) 20:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the opinion of a single, or even multiple, UK police forces isn't relevant here. However, it perhaps has a place amongst the Interactional Reactions section, alongside the reaction of the UK politicians, if the National Police Chiefs' Council makes a statement, which would represent UK police chiefs collectively. As the UK is known for its contributions to modern policing, and many key ideas like the Peelian principles, I think a hypothetical comment by the NPCC might be relevant here. Otherwise, I think it lacks relevance in an article that would become even more congested if every countries' local leaders could have their opinions cited here. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 20:19, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Bustop Au contraire: The US IS known for police corruption, in a myriad of forms. But, I agree, the statement doesn't merit inclusion. Pasdecomplot (talk) 11:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Minneapolis, Minnesota -> Minneapolis, Minnesota, U.S.

I know Americans think theres only one country in the entire world, but for the rest of us, actually mentioning "US" in the infobox probably isnt the worst of ideas 77.23.126.20 (talk) 19:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: per MOS:USPLACE, we write City, State, not City, State, U.S.. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like a dumb rule, but ok. Better remove it here too then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner 77.23.126.20 (talk) 19:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Good catch, thanks. Thanks for the edit request by the way. This being Wikipedia, you are more than welcome to propose a change to MOS:USPLACE on that talk page. Technically, that policy applies to article titles. It may be that editors will agree that U.S. should be included somewhere on the article at least once, like in the infobox. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Levivich is correct about MOS guidance, though I rush to point out that we give the same treatment to counties of the UK, provinces of Canada, and territories (or whatever it is they have) in Australia. So it's not a US thing. Having said that, I've often thought that in infoboxes, where we put all kinds of formal matter-of-record stuff (e.g. timezone of an event) anyway, it might make sense to give the full qualification e.g. Minneapolis, Minnesota, US, because an infobox is meant to be an at-a-glance reference as much as possible. But that's not the guideline we have. EEng 01:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Redux

• @EEng: Can you please understand that not everyone who encounters this article will be from the United States, and that it's normal to give the country name for mentions of a non-capital or largest city of a country. They're doing it over at George Floyd protests in the United Kingdom, with no issue, and this is the centrepiece article of the whole affair, so there's even more reason to qualify it. I don't think it's worthy of a repeated revert. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 02:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Btw, I just saw the above discussion on this same issue. @Levivich: WP:USPLACE is for the names of US city articles (it's under "Naming conventions"), not for mentions of U.S. cities in articles with global implications like this one. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

SUM1, yes, that's what I meant when I said Technically, that policy applies to article titles. :-) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:26, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Levivich: Then it didn't need to be used as a justification for removing article content, or as a place that the user needed to prose a change to. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 02:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

No, it didn't need to be. But it could have been, and it was. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

OK you two, listen and learn. MOS:PN#Place_names:

In general, other articles should refer to places by the names which are used in the articles on those places, according to the rules described at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names).

In other words, the rules for article titles do apply in article text. SUM1, if you don't like the guideline you can review the archives at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Proper_names, and if you have something new to add open a thread there. In the meantime, can you please understand that these guidelines were developed by hundreds (if not thousands) of editors, over fifteen years, to balance completing ideas about the styles appropriate for use in millions of articles, and for you to come barreling in like you're the only person who ever thought of the argument you're making, and everyone else is some kind of unaware dummy, is kinda lame. EEng 03:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng, first, you're springing something slightly out of context. That guidance is intended to describe what name of a place to use. The intention of that guidance isn't whether to include or exclude the country name in events with global attention such as this. It is only intended for the place name part of the reference, as is implied by the existence of MOS:DABPLACES for disambiguation pages, which makes clear that there are contexts where adding the country name may be appropriate.

The point made by SUM1 is perfectly valid, in that this article is attracting plenty of international attention and some clarification on country might be nice. We have used the country name in regards to Eric Garner, before it was removed today in response to this edit request, and we currently use it in the infobox at 1992 Los Angeles riots, alongside many other similar incidents. Those references to country have been kept over long periods of time, indicating a consensus amongst editors. The incident has received far more international attention than those did, yet we don't include "United States" even in the infobox here.

Second, the tone of your response to these two editors, who were discussing amongst themselves politely, and addressed you politely, is incredibly condescending, insulting and unnecessary.

Third, I feel your attitude towards this article is starting to border on WP:OWN, which is becoming quite visible in edit history. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 15:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The text I quoted from MOS:PN is intended to describe exactly what it says it describes, which is the way in which articles should refer to places. Nothing could be more clear. Any you're right that the point made by SUM1 is a valid one. It's undoubtedly one that was made in the many discussions behind the current (and longstanding) formulation of MOS:PN; it also happens to be a point that didn't carry the day.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but when you have more than three weeks and 1200 edits' worth of experience you'll have a better idea what constitutes ownership. EEng 17:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng, glad to see you're resorting to ad hominem and doubling down on this incorrect logic, rather than making any attempt to achieve consensus.

I've given you points based on policy and prior example. You've responded with the same point again. The point of MOS:PN is to standardise the name of a place, not to outlaw the suffixing of country names in all cases. I just gave you an example, from policy, where the suffixing is supported. On that note, since you mentioned to "review the archives at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Proper_names", I'm failing to see a discussion in these archives to give rise to the interpretation you're trying to enforce. Would you mind providing a direct link to a discussion on this particular topic?

Finally, given your doubling down and your removal of United States from 1992 Los Angeles riots, which I linked, you should perhaps also go ahead and remove references to the United States at the following pages: Battle of Alcatraz, Bundy standoff, Ludlow Massacre, Norco shootout, North Hollywood shootout, Memorial Day massacre of 1937, 1986 FBI Miami shootout. Let me know when you're done and I'd be happy to send some more links your way, so we can respect the legacy of the "thousands of editors" who agree with your interpretation of WP:USPLACE and MOS:PN :) ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for not explaining that DABPLACES (which applies only to dabpages – as it says, These guidelines only apply to pages correctly tagged with a disambiguation template) has no bearing on MOS:PN#Place_names (which is about articles). So your points and examples really are inapplicable to the case at hand.

I also apologize for pointing you to the wrong archive. Turns out the MOS:PN material was merged from somewhere else some years ago (WT:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters/Archive_26#Merge_in_MOS:PN) so I'm afraid you'll need to chase those pointers backwards to find the relevant discussions.

I don't go around search-and-destroying trivial stuff like this, but I usually fix them where they come to my attention. In due course I may attend to the additional articles you've listed, but right now my nephew needs help with his math homework. EEng 19:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng, thanks for that, regarding the archive. I've done a search on the talk archives for MOS:CAPS, from Archive 26 onwards (which is when it was merged in). I find no results for 'suffix' in any archive, and I see no relevant discussions in a search for 'country' from Archive 26 onwards.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that this discussion never happened, so I would greatly appreciate it if you could find the discussion which supports your point of view and provide a link whenever you have the time to do so.

I'm aware that DABPLACES only applies to dabpages - I noted this in my reply. I simply stated that a policy exists that makes clear "that there are contexts where adding the country name may be appropriate". Also, if your interpretation is indeed correct, clearly the MOS needs an update to clarify the current guidance. Well over 50% of the articles I can find on such events, such as the ones linked in my previous reply, have the name of the country in the infobox (at least). So, if your statement is correct, the misunderstanding is widespread across a lot of pages, over a lot of years, and with a lot of experienced editors.

I do believe that your quotation of MOS:PN#Place names seems to be for the purpose of WP:COMMONNAME, rather than as a guideline to prohibit the suffixing of country titles, which is what you're interpreting it to be. Of course, I could be wrong. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 19:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

It is indeed a widespread misunderstanding. As I noted somewhere above in this thread, I happen to think that infoboxes (not the article text) should in fact fully qualify City, State, US, because infoboxes are meant to have rote formal stuff, and I think doing that makes a nice balance against not having US in the text for those readers who are truly bewildered by that. However, that's not the current guideline.

Unfortunately, this colloquy has lead me to an awkward discovery, which is that Minneapolis is on the list of list of cities not even taking a state qualification i.e. it's Minneapolis not Minneapolis, Minnesota. (I've been to Minneapolis, and how it's in the same category as Boston [43] I can't think.) Now despite what you may think of me, I don't think we should tell readers that Floyd died simply in Minneapolis. How do you feel about Minneapolis, Minnesota for the text, and Minneapolis, Minnesota, US for the infobox (US instead of United States because space is precious in infoboxes) – all under WP:IAR – and I promise that, when things die down, I'll start a discussion over at MOS advocating that infoboxes fully qualify with US routinely (though with, perhaps, some very special exceptions like New York City and Washington, DC). Since Levivich and I never agree on anything, I'm pinging him in here; if he thinks it's a good idea we're halfway home. EEng 20:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

First of all, nobody should be putting Boston and Minneapolis in the same category unless it's Category:US cities with nothing in common. Secondly, yes I agree having "US" in the infobox, but not in the text, is best; I also agree it's not the current guideline; I also agree it should be the current guideline; and, I agree that we should employ the tyranny of local consensus WP:IAR and put US in the infobox. And also get the guideline changed. I wasn't being sarcastic when I suggested the IP should start a discussion at a policy page. MOS:PN might be better than MOS:USPLACES though. Also, MOS:USPLACES shouldn't point to a non-MOS page. There is much to attend to. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 21:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you sure you didn't go to Harvard? FourViolas, any chance you recognize this guy's handwriting? EEng 21:59, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

That article is very well written, and demonstrates that a writer never writes so well as when he's writing about another writer's writing. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng, thanks for being reasonable. I was only advocating for a change in the infobox, not the lead, so that's fine with me. I'd prefer United States personally, but we don't all get what we want :) - I think this is an acceptable compromise. I'd also appreciate you reverting your edit at 1992 Los Angeles riots in the meantime.

I don't think it's WP:IAR - I don't think the guideline exists as you were applying it (seems like no guideline existed at all), and you're yet to link me to that archive discussion. But now I'm just being picky, and this'll be moot post RfC anyway. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 21:33, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• thanks for being reasonable – I'm being reasonable? Must have been a weak moment.
• I'd prefer United States personally – At least between now and the presidential inauguration I'd prefer anywhere but the United States, so if you'd like to make a seven-month house swap I'm game.

The three of us being in violent agreement, let's wait to hear what others think. EEng 21:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox should only contain information that can accurately summarize the key facts of the article. No more, no less. For example, in Template:infobox person/doc, read the definition for the "|birth_place=" parameter. In the example, "New York City, U.S." is preferred over "New York City, New York, U.S." because in this case, "city, state, country" is redundant. Also, see the infoboxes for Larry Fitzgerald, Prince, Prof, and Mark Dayton. There is no consistency. So basically, there's no guideline or policy that will give a definite answer on whether or not to include US in the location. Consensus should be reached to determine this. I honest don't care what ends up in the infobox. The fact that this article is of international relevance makes me lean towards the inclusion of the country.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 00:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

All snark aside, I go out of my way to make sure any infobox mention of an American city and state has U.S. at the end of it. Simply leaving the city and state is too American-centric and for lack of a better term, informal. No matter if it’s Los Angeles, California or Doylestown, Pennsylvania. Trillfendi (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I also support including US in the infobox. Good to see a consensus reached. -Pacack (talk) 07:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, this is a technicism, but: someone who is a graduate from a police academy but is not employed by any police department, is an officer? --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 15:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

What are you objecting to?Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I object to nothing. I just changed "officers" to "former officers" and would like to know if I was right. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

If you are talking about the reference to Thomas Lane as "former officer" being released on bail, that seems right and supported by the cite to CBSNews (using "ex-officer"). Msherby (talk) 16:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• You're a doctor or accountant by virtue of your training and skills, regardless of your employment or active practice, but you're a sheriff or police officer by virtue of the position you hold. Lose the position ==> lose the title. EEng 20:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, EEng. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 06:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Something's wrong with the header template for this page declaring this a level 5 vital article in "an unknown topic". It seems to be a malformed parameter that wants to be topic=History, but I'm not sure History's correct. It looks like it was inserted by Cewbot so I didn't want to screw with it. —valereee (talk) 17:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I screwed with it. I'm not sure I agree with it being categorized as history either, but that's where it is currently. I added the parameter here and at Talk:George Floyd protests. (I'm also not sure I agree with two articles for one topic being listed as vital, but either way the templates should match the listing.) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

These designations and categories and vital articles and project designations do nothing and go nowhere anyway. EEng 19:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah but the same could be said about me. BTW, valereee, I don't think this is a bug, I just think Cewbot is not programmed to add |topic=. It doesn't appear to add that to any template. Cewbot has only been doing this for a few months, so it may just not be a developed feature yet. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

How many events that happened three weeks ago can really be designated a vital article in History? —valereee (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Sadly, the most applicable category is probably "Everyday life". Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 20:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Once again, we have a slew of irrelevant trivia on one of the principal actors added to this article. I deleted it, and was reverted.[44] Does WP:BLP (and its cognate, WP:BDP) mean anything at all? The edit asserts "criminal charges" based on a source which mentions overdue parking, traffic tickets, a loud party in 2007, and property damage another offense when he was 18. What do any of these have to do with this death?

These actors — the victim and the police — are notable only because of their role in this tragedy. We must start adhering to our policies. Kablammo (talk) 03:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

FYI this matter is already being discussed up above at #RFC on Floyd's criminal past. Just so you know before another edit war breaks out. --letcreate123 (talk) 06:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

This is Lane, not Floyd, Floyd wore mismatched socks in 2020. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

He had another pair at home just like them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

He also kept an eagle holding a rifle on his person night and day, even in the shower, and a couple of tombstones, too, what has Lane's body art ever said about him? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

If (IF) we have one set of backgrounds lets also have parity.Slatersteven (talk) 09:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Keep - OP omitted the criminal convictions of obstruction of justice and damagiong property (both felonies) and a misdemeanor noise infraction conviction in the reliably cited material OP deleted. OP also omitted that the sections of Lane's job application that mentions 12 charges, 3 convictions and the number of times he has been fired was redacted by the Minneapolis Police department and also that Lane was on his fourth day on the job. Per WP:SUSPECT, remove the part about the 12 charges (not 1 charge, not 2 charges, not 4, not 8, not 10, but 12 criminal charges before being hired as a police officer) if it's that desperately important to you, but the convictions and the redactions need to stay. It's not prejudicial trivia. Kire1975 (talk) 09:59, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Kire1975—it seems "desperately important" to you to omit background information on George Floyd while including background information on the police officers. I don't object to the inclusion of reliably sourced information on the police officers. But it is my opinion that the reader should also be apprised of background information on George Floyd. Bus stop (talk) 13:51, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Twelve charges doesn't mean twelve incidents, so we're clear. He got five the first time and two six years later. Then things get foggy, but he wasn't a career criminal for his whole adult life, he also had about a dozen jobs, wouldn't find the time. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Five plus two doesn't equal twelve. You are still omitting the convictions and redactions. 11:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I ain't omitting shit, I admitted things get foggy after 2007. All three convictions you see were among those seven charges, so the other five deserve to stay shady. As to redaction, redacted in the public copy, not the actual cadet application form. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:51, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

You have omitted quite a bit. Reliable sources report that Mr. Lane has been convicted of two felonies and a misdemeanor. Twelve criminal charges were redacted from the public coppy of his academy application before he was hired to be a police officer, after which he managed to be charged with killing somebody on his fourth day. These facts are newsworthy, notable and encyclopaedic. Please reread WP:CIVIL and have a nice day. Kire1975 (talk) 12:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't revert you, remove anything or say the convictions and redaction don't belong, if that's what you're thinking. Only saying it wasn't twelve incidents and the original application form is still legible. Just not by the public. And he's not charged with killing anybody. Allegedly aided the killer. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Kire1975, still a living individual though. We mustn't let outrage get the better of us. Tempting though it definitely is in this case. Guy (help!) 22:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

In a case heavily revolving around a purported inability to breathe, we should not suggest the eyes, nose and mouth were perpendicular to and touching the ground, even if we're "obviously" meaning his cheek by "face". Babies and drunks suffocate through actually facing down commonly enough. "Prone", "belly-down" or "cheek-down" would not be so confusing, in order of prevalence in sources. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

EEng disagrees and writes well, so cordially invited. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

My blushes, Hulk. EEng 03:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Decent point. But, babies and drunks die face down, unconscious in a pillow -- not concrete and speaking. On his stomach may work better in simple wikipedia. But, let's pretend our readers know what face-down means. Besides, we always have the excuse that that's what RS say. O3000 (talk) 00:33, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Pillows, puddles, pavement...if you're held facedown on anything, you don't speak and go unconscious in around two minutes. Since Floyd's case is different, it should be described differently. In my opinion, enough sources say "prone". InedibleHulk (talk) 00:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The use of the phrase "face down" in common speech is far more common than people planting their noses into the ground. Why? Because common speech isn't so literal. Native English speakers know what "face down" probably means, and others can look at the photo, a picture being worth a thousand words. Blind people aren't unimportant to us, but we can do only so much to accommodate them. Use the |image_alt= parameter to convey to them that Floyd's nose is not planted. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The trusty (real) OED says "with the face in the direction indicated". Indicating it's the face, rather than the rest of the body, that determines whether someone is facedown. Perennial Student (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the image is key to clarifying the position in which Floyd died. I added a detailed image_alt as suggested, including noting the surface and position of Floyd's face. I agree with EEng that "face-down" is not confusing, once it has been shown (or described) to the reader that Floyd was not lying on some yielding surface that could have blocked his airways. "Prone" is a little technical, and "belly-down" and "cheek-down" are not common constructions and strike me as unclear. FourViolas (talk) 01:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Positioned flat on the ground, works for me. Perennial Student (talk) 01:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That could be flat on his back. EEng 03:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That's five words a five-letter word does better, by indicating the flat-on-the-ground position was not supine. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:25, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

True enough, but I think people won't know what prone means. As an aside, the criminal complaint specifically uses the adverb face down: "Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed." And prone: "Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous."[45] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perennial Student (talk • contribs) 01:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Link prone position, then. We're here to teach people. It's not patronizing when an encyclopedia does it. (Going facedown and being held like that for a while are different things, by the way.) InedibleHulk (talk) 01:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The given source says “face down” so face down it is. We don’t need to create our own alternatives. WWGB (talk) 01:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

We could replace the source with a more accurate one. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:48, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

WaPo uses “ put face down into the prone position”, having it both ways. WWGB (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"Prone vs. Supine vs. Prostrate" I think "prone" is the most appropriate term for us to be using. Bus stop (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That's not having it both ways. "Face down" is how he went/was put into the position. The position he remained in after going facedown is "prone". InedibleHulk (talk) 02:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"Face-down" is appropriate, in my opinion. But "belly down" would even be appropriate. I wouldn't recommend either. "Prone" is close enough. We aren't trying explain with exactitude. We want a ballpark explanation. Bus stop (talk) 02:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, I want the truth, so I'm taking my ball and going home. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• I elaborated the description in the article proper [46] but for the lead I believe face down is more than adequate. As I mentioned in my edit summary, to be face down doesn't require that the cranial median plane be perpendicular to the ground. EEng 03:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
• I'm on team "face down". I'm also on team "drunk", but I think everyone knows what "face down" means and it conjures an image in the head, which is the right image. I don't think "face down" means "nose down" specifically; I think "cheek down" is what people think of as "face down", and that makes sense, because the cheek, or at least some cheeks, are part of the face. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 03:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

  Right. Any part of the face is down, the nose being anywhere from -90° to +90° off vertical. EEng 04:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

That is acceptable—using "face down" in the lede and "prone" in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 04:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this compromise. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 04:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Face down is supported by reliable sources - face down and handcuffed, in the criminal complaint against Chauvin - Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed. And is seen in protests as well - lying face-down on the streets in Tacoma, Lansing, Minneapolis, Green Bay, Denver, Philadelphia, Washington, Oklahoma, Iowa, Sydney, New York's Times Square, Protesters lie facedown on Burnside Bridge. Isaidnoway (talk) 09:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

For the third and perhaps charming time, going to the ground and being held there are two distinct verbs, whose adverbs don't apply to anything else but them. He also went down "quickly" despite staying down for "way too long". The takedown happened just once, before the pin continued till the end. [User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] (talk) 01:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, he went to the ground face down and remained there face down for "way too long". Isaidnoway (talk) 10:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)