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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 5 December 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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@Boardwalknw8:
Regarding the NPOV issues with the page, there are several examples where your sentences are decidedly non-neutral. Firstly, this sentence: Mike Berlon is a long time American politician, political strategist, lawyer and lobbyist whose career spans more than 40 years.
This sentence emphasizes his experience, and is definitely not neutral. Secondly, this sentence: He specialized in trial practice and courtroom work handling civil and criminal cases at the State and Federal trial and appellate levels for more than 21 years.
In particular, this bit: ... for more than 21 years.
Statements that lead with "For over, and more than..., are not neutral. Finally, this: ...a wide variety of issues...
. Simply stating "...various issues..." would be sufficient, and would be more neutral.
While these are the main outstanding examples, the entire revision is also non-neutral, though not quite as egregiously. Jeb3Talk at me hereWhat I've Done 18:54, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Jebcubed: Grammatical points understood. I will attempt to refine the the statements that you referenced above. Will drop "spans more than 40 years", and "more than 21 years" and will state "various issues" rather than "wide variety of issues". Will make those changes tomorrow, can't today. Will also look at other language to tighten as well. Hopefully, this will resolve the matter. Thanks for reaching out with specifics. Boardwalknw8 (talk) 19:07, 4 December 2019 (UTC)Boardwalknw8
@Boardwalknw8:: I've reverted your edits again. I'm going to briefly describe some of the issues I see with them.
I'd suggest that you identify better sourcing to support the changes you want to make, and that you attempt to phrase the changes more neutrally. You could perhaps make some suggestions here on the talk page and discuss them with other users. Also courtesy-pinging Jebcubed since they have been involved in this as well. Thanks GirthSummit (blether) 18:58, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Boardwalknw8 (talk) 19:21, 4 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8
GIRTH SUMMITT: I appreciate your help. As you can see, I'm new to this to I was surprised at the reaction I had earlier to these changes. In fact, I thought "sandbox" is where kids used to play. I was also afraid all the edits was lost. I believe that all of my edits were properly sourced. Do you think you can guide me through the process? What should I do? One small section at a time? And when will I know its OK? The site was revised without any prior warning to me after all of the work. I would appreciate your insight. Boardwalknw8 (talk) 20:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8
GIRTH SUMMITT: Wait. No disrespect intended. I do not believe that my sourcing was "problematic". I never said that. My sources are fine. The criticism was that I used wikipedia as a reference. That was a very small slice of the citations. Not as a solo reference but in addition to others. I get why I shouldn't use wikipedia as a source but the rest of my work is all well documented. So I am concerned, especially because the article may be political in nature, about why my edits have been taken down. I have an issue with all of my edits being removed when none have been apparently significantly checked or sourced. The original article was done in 2010 so there are may updates to be done. There was no attempt by anyone at the beginning of this to explain anything, other than just to undo the edits and threaten me with being blocked. I am more than willing to work with anyone on this but if the editing can be subjectively discarded because of stylistic differences I'm not sure how to proceed. What do you suggest? Boardwalknw8 (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2019 (UTC)boradwalknw8
C.Fred Who is the ultimate arbiter of what is permissible on the site? The sources cited were good. But two editors have decided that because of stylistic reasons the site should be revised. But what if we disagree? I would assume that this is not trial by committee and that if a source is cited, then it should be accepted as such and that the modifications should be applied. I practiced law for many years before I retired and know there is always more than one point of view in most every instance. It all comes down to interpretation. All of the objections I have seen from GIRTH SUMMITT and JEBCUBED are stylistic in nature. You can check this out for yourself. Recommending word changes only. How does this ultimately get resolved and who would be in charge of this? Who do you appeal to? Someone has to be the final arbiter. In fact, how do you get a site deleted? I can see why the site can be so cumbersome. Thanks for your help.
Boardwalknw8 (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)boradwalknw8
GIRTH SUMMITT: Thanks for your response. As you know, I am new to this process and I appreciate your willingness to help me moving forward. I want to make sure to get it right. I have a question. I started this process because I have a background in law, politics and military history. When I retired I started looking for sites to possibly update or make better. I ran across this one and saw that it had a lot of room for improvement and that it really isn't a proper biography so I thought I'd experiment with it.
While there is a lot to add, I think the threshold questions is whether this article should even be on Wikipedia. I thought about this yesterday. The subject really isn't anyone of significant biographical note, the site apparently has remained unchanged for quite a while and it really offers nothing in the way of real substance. In fact, it's barely sourced. I read the Wikipedia Notability Policy and wonder if the correct choice here wouldn't be to delete the site. Before I start the editing process, I'd like your opinion. Keeping it alive for editing purposes doesn't make much sense to me. Thanks again for your insight. Thoughts?
(UTC)boardwalknw8
With regard to the subject's notability, at least one person agrees with you, since it was tagged for a notability concern back in May. I'm not sure personally - having been chairman of the party may be enough to get him over the line, and I'd be surprised if there weren't enough sources about him available even if they're not currently present in the article. You could nominate to AFD to start a deletion discussion, but my gut instinct (without having done a full WP:BEFORE search myself) is that this article would likely be retained. The guidelines to read and think about would be WP:GNG and WP:NPOLITICIAN.
GIRTH SUMMITT: Thanks for your response. I am not connected to the subject. I guess my concerns were that even if I somehow made additions to the site, that it would later be determined that this page did not see the suitable requirements of notability. I guess the pushback was because I spent a lot of time on the work and was upset about the pushback on the edits. Instead of engaging me about it, my changes were simply deleted and then I was threatened about it.
I'm interested in contributing something significant to make pages better. But after looking at the entire issue and reviewing the notability policy, this seems like a dead end. This is especially true since many of the references I used come from hard copy publications or print materials that are not on the internet. I'm used to more scholarly footnoting in terms of publications.
I will review your suggestions about talk page discussions. I'm a bit short of time this morning. In a nutshell, after looking at everything it seems that this page should probably be deleted or merged somewhere. Maybe with the Democratic Party of Georgia (if they have a page). I don't want to spend hours an a dead end project. I have other edits that I can make in other areas. Once again, don't want to waste my time or yours. Thanks for the info about IP address as well. I can understand why that could be important.
So-what do you think? I'm inclined to submit it for deletion unless you believe the edits would be worthwhile. Especially if the idea of deletion has come up before. Thank again.
Boardwalknw8 (talk) 17:04, 5 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8
GIRTH SUMMITT: Thanks for your response. I now see the broader picture and I appreciate your insight. I see your point about the difficulties with the article. I never considered that. I think that right now I'll pass on something with this degree of difficulty. I am going to submit the site for deletion. Frankly, I thought it would be a good "starter" project. Frankly, it's just a shell anyway. Im like your approach about the way you edit. It makes great sense. And I like non contentious...I did enough of that ion my career. Thanks again for all your help. I hope you don't mind if I call on you again in the future.
Boardwalknw8 (talk) 19:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8
I
GirthSummit (blether): Thank you very much. There is a steep learning curve here and I appreciate your kindness in helping me. Its like learning a completely new language. The military history projects look exciting. Never realized what a hornet's nest politics was nor expected the reactions I received. Have a great and happy Holiday Season. I will take you up your office of help. I want to learn to do this right.
Boardwalknw8 (talk) 17:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8