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this is just one part of the resolution. Here is the whole resolution. http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm These official documents show you a complete 1244 Resolution, together with all the small changesmade by NATO. It is clearly stated that Kosovo is part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro)currently administered by the UN forces. Let's stop albanian propaganda! Gianni ita 15:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted a blatantly POV-ed sentence from the section where it's spoken about Serbs and Roma leaving. It said "(note: Most of Kosovo Serbs were in the ruling administration of Milosevic's installed apartheid in Kosovo)". It is both factually ridiculous (what? The majority of the Kosovo Serbs were doing administration jobs? And what about numerous monks and entirely Serb villages? Everybody was administering? What a nonsense!) and is clearly POV. I do not cover my leaning - I am pro-Serbian (though not Serb and not originating from Serbia, I am a Jew), but hey! The folks here need to put some limits on this kind of savage trolling. --Aleverde
Nikola has started to make reverts of ChrisO's version without any explanation at all; this kind of behavior, where he is ignoring the rest of the community and their input, as well as reverting to push his point, is against a number of wiki policies. GeneralPatton 20:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The province in question is called Kosovo (the word is derived from the serbian word "kos" - blackbird, coloquialy known as "Kosovo polje" and broadly translated it means "the field of the blackbirds". The word KosovA is a bastardized version of the serbian word. Same linguistic bastardization can be found in the Gaelic word Dub Hlin (town of black lakes), which over the centuries became Dublin (capital city of Ireland)- Dublin in English has no meaning, KosovA in Albanian equally has no meaning both are the names belonging to the ethnically stronger community which had prevailed at the time of ethnic dominance by the native speakers. Naturally the war for Kosovo keeps going on everywhere including the pages of this encyclopedia. Propaganda war knows no boundries. Historical facts can be checked, examined and speak abundantly of Kosovo's rich Serbian history. The many Serbian monastaries from 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14, 15, 16 and 17th Century speak strongly that Serbians had a firm foothold in Kosovo. Following facts played a key role in Kosovo's ethnic change:
1. Albanian birth rate was above that of any other nation on Earth;
2. Year 1688-1690 a mass exodus of Serbs was organized by Arsenije III Charnojevic
3. Communist politics brought many native Albanians from Albania to Kosovo in the aftermath of WW2
4. In its efforts to stifle Russian and/or Chinese version of communism (praciced only in Albania) Yugoslav leaders pretty much opened the Kosovo borders to further demonstrate their own approach to communism was the only correct way.
5. As the ethnic balance was shifting (numerically) in favor of Albanians, the more Serbians were being forcefully expelled.
CONCLUSION: Today's situation of Kosovo is clearly a nightmare because of the above and many more historical factors. In spite of the strong Serbian cultural identity established in Kosovo, the population growth and demographic make-up are clearly in favor of the Albanians. Their (Albanian) numerical superiority does not make Kosovo entirely Albanian.
"If the Pope says the Earth is flat - the facts don't have to say it's so"
For user 195.56.15.8: I was never interested in history of Kosovo, but since I tracked your changes to this page, I have to inform you that Vojvodina is not so called, but the autonomous province of Serbia with the official name Autonomous Province of Vojvodina. And, yes, it is not entirely Serbian, it belong to all its citizens, and it have 6 official languages (including Hungarian). I do not know for whom exactly the situation in Vojvodina could be a nightmare? User:PANONIAN
ChrisO, this regards your recent edits, which entailed the erasing or modification of some of my work on the article:
I am not blaming you for partiality to the Serbian cause, I am sure that you want to contribute to the writing of a neutral and valid article. However, it starts getting increasingly evident that you and several other editors are giving way to the press exerted (particularly) by Nikola Smolenski and forget that the historical truth lies in fact, not with those who scream louder. VMORO
-Hugely anti-Albanian comments removed-
The Skanderberg SS battalions attacked Serbs in WWII, what numbers I dont know.
Absolutely, Patton, but even his work is still tipped over to the Serbian side. And he has not even bothered to answer my questions. Besides, some of the data here and in Demographic history of Kosovo are grossly manipulated (and one can easily guess who did it). For example, Yugoslav census 1921 posted 430,000 Albanians in Yugoslavia and the map made after the census portrays Kosovo as predominantly Albanian. Despite that, here and in the other article, an idea is given that interwar Kosovo was predominantly Serbian. VMORO
Does Albania actually recognise the parallel government? Where is this written? Thanks! Intrigue 23:53, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think it would be correct to say that Albania -had- recognised the parallel government. Under an UNMIK agreement with the Kosovo Albanian political parties, the (still unofficial) Republic of Kosovo and the parallel government were wound up and replaced with the provisional institutions. This is not to deny the right to Kosovo Albanians of self-government, but this was an act of their polticial representatives, who still maintain their right to declare indepedence - they have attempted to do so through the UNMIK-created parliament but have been contstantly rebuffed by the UN. The website of the Albanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs refers to a Mission (note - not an Embassy, an important distinction) in Kosovo, titled, "Misioni i Republikes se Shqiperise ne Kosove". I'm afraid my Albanian is not good enough to translate this precisely, but I suspect its something likle the 'Mission of the Albanian Republic' (ie. Albania) in or to Kosovo. If anyone wanted further clarification you might call that office on +381038 5483689. (JD)
The Serbian security forces "relocated" Albanians? Heh, did they also permanently relocate those they killed? It would be funny if it weren't for people's lives that we were talking about Nikola. Dori | Talk
Nikola objects to the following sentences in the Demographics sections (I've bolded the relevant bits for clarity, with Nikola's suggested words in italics):
The refugees were clearly expelled. The evidence for this is overwhelming; it was reported by literally thousands of people, and the OSCE's postwar report (http://www.osce.org/kosovo/documents/reports/hr/part1/ch14.htm) does a good job of summarising the evidence. The expulsions are also a big element of Milosevic's war crimes indictment. I don't think it's credible to refer to this episode as "relocation" when it was clearly much more than that.
I don't know why Nikola is deleting the last part of this sentence. Doing so leaves open the question of why the non-Albanians fled, even though it was very clearly because they feared that the returning refugees or KLA would attack them. This was reported in both Western and Serbian news sources that at the time. See, for instance, "Kosovo's Serbs flee in fear" [2], "Kosovo's Serb exodus" [3] and "Serb refugees return to Kosovo" [4], all of which refer to Serbs fleeing because they "fear that K-For will not - or cannot - protect them from guerrillas of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), who have been coming down from the mountains to return to their towns and villages." -- ChrisO 13:07, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is an interesting discussion, perhaps lacking some background to tie it together. Quite a few Serbs left Kosovo during the bombing for safety in Serbia proper, but very many (quite possibly half) left as NATO entered, mostly to Serbia proper but also to Montenegro (which is ethnically Serbian). Many thousands still live there, mostly in temporary camps or abandoned schools and the like - I visited a few whilst in Belgrade working at one of the western Embassies. All of them are quite clear about why they left: fear. All non-Albanians were clear that NATO moving in would mean a return of the KLA and of all those ethnic Albanian Kosovars who had so recently fled to Macedonia and Albania. Even prior to the bombing, ordinary Serbs had lived in fear of a wave of kidnappings and murders or Serbs by Albanians - it was this that led to the massive overreaction by Milosevic and the arrival of gangs of murderous thugs from Serbia (moslty Bosnian war veterans) who began to attack Albanians. So, when the Albanians returned, most Serbs left in fear of reprisals. Senior NATO figures often say that they regret that more was not done at the time to prevent Albanian voilence and encourage Serbs to remain. Those Serbs who do remain in Kosovo live in a climate of fear, and are mosty unable to leave the Serbian areas; a wave of voilence earlier this year, with gangs of Albanians laying seige to the Serbian enclaves, led to the destruction of homes and churches (including a number of historically important medieval monastries) and more Serbs left for Serbia proper - all of this was well covered by media.
The problem of 'returns' of Serbs to Kosovo is one of UNMIKs biggest headaches. Most are living in terrible conditions in Serbia proper, but are still unwilling to return out of fear for their security; they would return if they could be placed in more secure, perhaps Serbian-majority areas. Ethnic Albanians do not want them to return, partially because that would mean a larger non-Albanian voting population, but also because the abandoned homes of all those departed Serbs are now occupied by - guess who? The international community does want the Serbs to return, but cannot be seen to support mass returns to new settlements, as this would be seen as supporting the Serbian case for evential partition of Kosovo (one of the possible solutions to 'Final Status') - only return to 'point of origin' (ie. their original homes) is countenanced, but these have either been destroyed or occupied by ethnic Albanians. All rather difficult. (JD)
'History is past politics, politics present history', Hipi. The background above is critical for an understanding of why we are all here debating the neutrality of this article. You reject it as merely 'historical' because you dislike the implications of admitting the awful present situation of the ethnic minorities (Serbs in particular) in Kosovo. You deny the existance of these new injustices (this time against Serbs) because you feel that to do so would threaten your right to independence. But without a resolution of the new injustices there will be no peaceful and stable resolution to the 'Kosovo problem', and no chance of an independent Kosovo. So you should begin with an understanding that making Serbs feel safe and welcome in Kosovo is the only route to independence: your fate really is within your own grasp. (JD)
Here are two interesting papers that touch on the Kosovo in the 80s and mythmaking ...
http://www.amid.dk/pub/papers/AMID_34-2004_Diken_&_Bagge_Laustsen.pdf
http://www.ichrp.org/ac/excerpts/50.pdf
GeneralPatton 13:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/talk.htm (And try reading it before you pee on it, Patton. Gil-White is a leftie hater who had set out to prove TENC wrong.) Kwantus 14:53, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)
My concern is that saying "many thousands of Serbs and non-Albanians (especially Romas) left the province for fear of reprisals from the returning Kosovo Albanian refugees" suggests that
All of these are wrong and the text should be made more explicit. So: "many thousands" should be "tens of thousands", "for fear of reprisals" should be "following a wave of violence" and "from ...refugees" should be "by Albanian-nationalist militant organisations". -- Themos 09:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm a former diplomat and have spent time in Kosovo. Voilence on both sides was carried out in part by armed groups (paramilitaries on the Serb side, the KLA on the Albanian) but also by groups of individual Albanians, mostly young men of course, perhaps motivated or directed by KLA-types. We saw this again earlier this year, with large groups of Albanians destroying Serb homes across Kosovo (see media reports). Guess this does implicate the returning refugess, but most will understand that only a minority were involved in violence. (JD)
Kosovar - some very important points. Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo were quite clearly discriminated against for all of the modern period. Worth remembering, though, that under the post-war Communist system, which continued unchanged until the fall of Milosevic, virtually everyone was discriminated against across Yugoslavia. None had the legitimate democratic and economic rights that most of us now enjoy. That Serb Communists appointed fellow Serb Communists to choice positions in Kosovo is no surprise, and as democrats we would all (Serb, Albanian and all of us) have opposed such favouritism. No doubt there was also a degree of discrimination on purely ethnic/religious grounds. Such favouritism also existed, for instance, in Northern Ireland, until modern legislation against discrimination was able to tilt the balance and amend (though not overturn) those historical wrongs. So It is still regrettable that, in Kosovo, the situation has been reversed by equally bad discrimination against Kosovo Serbs: you're right to say that Serbs have been voluntarily leaving Kosovo for a very long time, but a far larger number are forced to sell their property as the threat of violence against them prevents them living there. Past langauge discrimination against Albanians is no excuse for current langauge discrimination (on threat of voilence!) against Serbs. There are certainly wrongs to be righted, but the present situation is only creating more wrongs and so generating future conflict.
I also take your point as regards 'positive discrimination' in politics towards Kosovo Serbs. Every territory of the former Yugoslavia has had to find a balance between its ethnic groups. In Bosnia, the Federation is balanced equally between Serb and non-Serb, each with its own entity, and with sub-entity Cantons allowing balance at a local level. Ethinically divided countries across the world have adopted some type of 'federation' to balance ethnic groups - Canada is one example. Why not a similar solution for Kosovo? Cantonisation or entity-isation would give Serbs in Kosovo a real say in how government works, which the current position (a permanent minority in the assembly) does not. Most ethnic Albanians would oppose this - why? Because they fear a partition of Kosovo? If Serbia is to be partitioned along ethnic lines (with majority-Albanian Kosovo secceeding), why should Kosovo not be partitioned along ethnic lines, with majority-Serbian areas reverting to Serbia? It strikes me that Serbs in Kosovo are willing to consider all solutions, including complete independence, yet ethnic Albanians/Kosovars are not. I hope this does not sound 'pro-Serb' - I would jump equally quickly to the defence of ethnic Albanian rights, and supported the NATO intervention to stop the ethnic cleansing. The unintended consequences seem to have been pretty bad though - perhaps the international community should be using its money and its soldiers to enforce some balance?
Another important point - if we are see real reconciliation in Kosovo, as across the Balkans, we should make sure that those who committed war crimes on all sides are dealt with equally. I suppose you would support the arrest and trial in the Hague of any Kosovo Albanians indicted for such crimes? Something on this issue should perhaps be included on the main page, as the potential indictment of senior Kosovo ALbanian leaders could lead to voilence (most likely against the international community and NATO forces). (JD)
Think we're in danger of getting moved from this page. But this is a good discussion. Let take language first (also see my points below). I certainly did not intend to say that there was no discrimination post-1991. If anything, it was probably worse as the whole ethnic 'balance' (!!) of Yugoslavia was destroyed by the death of Tito. From 1991 until 2000 the system within Serbia (and inlcuding Kosovo here) was based on the Communist system with increasingly nationalist elements. You cannot blame this system on the Serbs. It was the fault of a post-WWII world obsessed by the Cold War; the rights of minorities and the democratic and human rights of all were undermined in places across the world. After 1991, the Serb nationalists, primarily Slobodan Milosevic and his cronies were guilty for the continuation and worsening of discrimination; many, many Kosovo Serbs, as you well know, opposed Milosevic and would have worked (some more than others) to find a balance in Kosovo. The reaction of some Kosovo Albanians to this discrimination was unacceptable - particularly the kidnappings and murder of ordinary citizens of Kosovo. And the reaction to this by the Millosevic government, by then tipping over into a dictatorship, was even more unacceptable, and so the West interevened. None of this excuses any discrimination now. We start with a clean slate. As the UNMIK constitutional framework states (http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm), all have the right to: (a) Use their language and alphabets freely, including before the courts, agencies, and other public bodies in Kosovo; (b) Receive education in their own language; (c) Enjoy access to information in their own language; (d) Enjoy equal opportunity with respect to employment in public bodies at all levels and with respect to access to public services at all levels; e) Enjoy unhindered contacts among themselves and with members of their respective Communities within and outside of Kosovo; (f) Use and display Community symbols, subject to the law. As you well know, the reaction in central Pristina to someone speaking in Serbian would be unpredictable but certainly unfreindly. Given the events of earlier this year, all Kosovo Serbs are afraid to use their language and symbols outside of the Serbian areas - this is completely unacceptable. Protected areas within the Parliament or courts are really not enough. Do you accept that ordinary Serbs are unable to use their language freely outside of the Serb areas? Is this not discrimination, as bad or worse than was committed (in language terms ONLY) against the Kosovo Albanians?
On entities etc. I agree with almost all your points; there needs to be either a more consistent approach to the 'solutions' for ethnic balance across the Balkans, or at least an agreement why this inconsistencies occur. I don't think (and nor do 'negotiators') that historical precedence is sufficient to exert a claim for or against a degree of self-determination. If Kosovo/a had never been self-administering, would you think you had less of a claim to independence? Of course not. Ultimately, as you say, the solution has a lot to do with the treatment of one 'side' by another. In Montenegro the situation has been historically better (but by no means perfect) than elsewhere; this is why there is less pressure for change. I had originally intended to respond to your point about Serbian representation in Parliament - and I think my points now fit within this discussion. If the Serbs in Kosovo NOW feel that they are being discriminated against, it is legitimate and unsurprising if they demand greater defences against this - a range of solutions from stronger legal rights, stronger influence over democratic institutions, or even, finally, a split. If Motenegro started to abuse its ethnic Albanian population, they would be within their rights to demand seccession; same for Serbs in Kosovo; same for Albanians in southern Serbia. Of course, whether or not they get what they want depends on: a) how forcefully or effectivly they pursue their goals and b) what the international community supports. And this is the dilemma for us all - and the only solution I can see is to try and reduce discontent; the only way I can see the international community allowing an independent Kosovo is if the Serbs are (relatively) content to live there. Events such as those of earlier this year, and discrimnation against Serbs as perceived by Serbs and by internationals such as myself actively undermine the case for Kosovo independence. I guess its a case of rights (to self-determination) entailing responsibilities (to not abuse your minorities). Serbia got it wrong and was punished; I suspect the IC will not risk the same in an independent Kosovo. Thoughts?
Totally agree with your points on the Serbs (or, more precisley, the Serbian state as run by Milosevic and his political allies) getting it wrong again and again. Eveything 'done' to the Serbs from 1991 up to now are in large part the fault of Milosevic, Seselj, Karadzic , Mladic and so on. Ordinary Serbs, as I am sure you will agree, were powerless to resist, just as you yourself were powerless to resist the destruction of Serb homes and churches in Kosovo earlier this year. To link in whit the preceeding point, there is a risk if a country/government/people gets it wrong, then the international community will interevene. It has intervened in the Balkans and nothing will happen to Kosovo without the support of the IC - if Kosovo Albanians acknowledge this they will more likely get what they want; and if they do not there is a real risk of losing the prize they have sought for so long.
On ICTY. Some good points. I do seem to remeber than certain of the K Albanian ICTY indictees may have not gone to the Hague SO willingly. It took a while to 'find' one or two of them, then they appeared after behind the scenes discussions with the politicians. But, in the end, they did go, all credit to them. You're right to say that 3 K Albanians (do you mind me putting it that way, I do also mean Kosovars, but we need a common reference) have gone to the Hague, but the right words would be that 3 have been openly charged; there are certainly a number of 'closed indictments' which are not public. Closed indictments exist where there is sufficient evidence for a case but where publication would reduce the chance of bringing the indictee to court or where a public indictment would cause other problems. This is not Carla del Ponte hesitating to charge; these people have been charged, just not yet publicly. It is these closed indictments which are source of speculation, some of it well informed (and I do not include Covic here, although as you well know, he is often well-informed), that very senior K Albanian politicians might be the subject of closed indictments which at some point will become open, requiring those people to stand trial. My question was - what would be result? How would the political parties, former KLA types and ordinary Kosovars react? This is, as I am sure you agree, an important question - and of more than just acadmeic interest. (JD)
Kosovar - Agree that there is little or no institutional discrimination (depending on how you define it). Agree that the Kosovo Serbs continue to play a very poor hand; cooperation would have won them more influence. Agree that the K Serbs should take advantage of the goodwill that exists in the large part of the Kosovo Albanian community. However, part of the problem is that they DO want to spoil the image of progress since 1999 because they do see (and experience) real problems which most of us downplay in the (generally very good) wider picture - if those problems (security and returns especially) were dealth with, the worst elements amongst K Serb politicians would not be able to exploit the fears of ordinary Kosovo Serbs. That was my point on Milosevic - his system discriminated against and committed crimes against the Kosovo Albanian community; some in the K Albanian community responded, in part against MUP/VJ but also against ordinary citizens; this allowed Milosevic to expolit some legitimate concerns of K Serbs for his own, twisted nationalist/personal glorification agenda.
On the other points, I see what you are saying but I can't agree. It's the responsility of Kosovo Albanians not to destroy Serb homes, not to intimidate Serbs in the street, and to allow them to speak their language freely, etc. NATO and the UN should only be there as a last resort. It's precisely the same problem with your analogy of childrens' bedrooms - in demanding Independence before restoring security, good administration and human rights for all, Kosovo Albanians are asking to be treated as children (which is far less than they deserve). Hence the 'Standards before Status' mantra, however empty it can sometimes seem. As I said before, if this is recognised by the Kosovo Albanian community, indedependence would be assured more quickly. I firmly believe that if large numbers of Kosovo Serbs are allowed to return to Kosovo (anywhere in Kosovo), if those still there begin to feel less aggression towards them, with greater decentralisation, then we will have strong basis for a truly multiethnic, independent Kosovo. Not a bad goal surely?
And, on idictments. Take the point on FL - if that's the story, fair enough - had seemend suspiscious at the time. But on closed indictments I am right - if there is an indictment, but that indictment is not public that person remains, in law, in the eyes of the Hague, indicted. Not guilty, not subject to an arrest warrent, but indicted. And I do think it is a matter of legitimate, useful speculation/discussion as to the effect of the 'opening' of a closed indictment against senior Kosovo Albanian politicians. The chance might be 25%, 50% or 75%, but the effect could be massive. Good to hear that you think the response will be measured (and, as you point out, a hell of a lot better than actions of Karadzic, Mladic etc), but many in the international community are worried. I think it should be covered in the article - with plenty of caveats. Cheers for the interesting discussion, Kosovar! (JD)
JD and Kosovar, I enjoyed reading your discussion, and I think I should point out a few things that should have bearing on the article text:
'History is past politics, politics present history', Hipi. The background above is critical for an understanding of why we are all here debating the neutrality of this article. You reject it as merely 'historical' because you dislike the implications of admitting the awful present situation of the ethnic minorities (Serbs in particular) in Kosovo. You deny the existance of these new injustices (this time against Serbs) because you feel that to do so would threaten your right to independence. But without a resolution of the new injustices there will be no peaceful and stable resolution to the 'Kosovo problem', and no chance of an independent Kosovo. So you should begin with an understanding that making Serbs feel safe and welcome in Kosovo is the only route to independence: your fate really is within your own grasp. (JD)
First, as I said, the way in which this page is moved has insulted me and I find it insultive to comment here since; I hope that this exception will be appreciated.
For the sake of sanity, I will pretend that none of this hasn't been pointed out numerous times already.
I can not comprehend why are sysops reverting the article to the version with lower number of refugees, when that lowered number is provided without any justification and, as I said, references for the higher number were provided numerous times.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040203102745/http://www.serbia.sr.gov.yu/coordination_centre/index.html gives number of refugees as 242,381 and estimates that there are 50,000 more unregistered refugees. UNHCR Global Report 2001 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (to obtain it you may go to http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home?page=search and search for "Yugoslavia") at page 1 gives number of registered refugees as 231,000, report from 2002 at page 9 gives it as 263,600 and report from 2003 at page 1 gives it as 234,826. Note that both sources include only refugees inside SCG, and only registered refugees, so the actual number is higher. As after initial wave of violence some refugees have returned to safe areas, initial number of refugees in 1999 was even higher. So you can see that number of refugees in 1999 is probably even higher than 300,000; it would be fine with me to say something like "more than 250,000" but lowering the number two or threefold is not acceptable in any way. And of course, despite what VMORO might claim, UNHCR is not Serbian source. Secondary sources do take over these figures. For example, http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1226542.htm mentions that "Some 200,000 Serbs fled the province"; the first link above gives the number of Serbs (for there are non-Serbs who have fled the province) as 226000. http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/europe/yugoslavia.htm gives "The 277,000 internally displaced people in Yugoslavia" (in 2002).
As for discrepancies between censa and number of refugees, it should be noted that both 1991 Yugoslav and 2002 UNMIK's censa are ESTIMATES of the province's population while refugees are REGISTERED individually; in order to get aid, each refugee must proove to be from the province and register. This is why their EXACT number is known, and as could be seen, the sources don't round the numbers but give them accurate to the last digit. The fact that the numbers don't add up means that estimates are wrong, not that number of refugees is wrong. Further, UNMIK's censa include people who are internally displaced within Kosovo; they are still refugees.
Nikola 12:11, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
--- There are some 65,000 refugees. Serbia can register 2 million refugees, but it's all propaganda. In the census of 1991 the number of Serbs was under 180,000, the census was organized by Milosevic gov. The number of Kosovo Serbs should be around that today, maybe 185,000. There are some 120,000 Kosovar Serbs in Kosovo today and some 65,000 in Serbia. Go to www.esiweb.org, read their paper "The Lausanne Principle: Multiethnicity, Territory And The Future Of Kosovo's Serbs"
Leaving aside the refugee figures, I've removed a statement that Nikola keeps adding:
This is unsatisfactory for a couple of reasons. It's factually incorrect, as it was the refugees themselves who said that they had been forcibly expelled. Ignoring or denying this simply isn't credible. It's also not much more than innuendo to claim that there is a link between NATO and the human rights groups and international organisations stating that there were mass expulsions - the obvious implication is that organisations such as Human Rights Watch, the OSCE, UNHCR etc are just fronts for NATO, which is disputable to say the least. -- ChrisO 17:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I know of one interview in which it is suggested that the KLA contributed to the movement of ethnic Albanians, but there is no confirmation or investigation of these claims that I know of. Themos
Nikola seems to be rambling a bit but I think he has a valid point. I'm a former diplomat, having served in the region and worked on Kosovo. Some background - increasing Albanian discontent and voilence against Serbs in Kosovo led to a massive Serbian police against the KLA, with about as much subtlty as used against insurgents in Iraq; hardline, nationalist Serb paramilitary groups (mostly Bosnian war veterans / war criminals) took advantage of the situation and started to attack ethnic Albanians and their homes with impunity, aid and abetted by 'special force' elements of the Serbian police and encouraged by the Serbian President (Milosevic) himself; ordinary Kosovo Albanians began to leave Kosovo out of fear; western media took up the story and we all began to pay attention; seeing the situation moving in their facour, the KLA seems to have encouraged other ethnic Albanians to leave, perhaps using the fear of Serb voilence as a motivator; OSCE produced a report suggesting war crimes were happening; Milosevic blustered, NATO intervened, the Albanians returned and many Serbs left. So, most ethnic Albanian refugess left out of fear of the Serb paramilitaries (who, it's worth saying, were not from Kosovo), but some (no doubt a much smaller number) left under the encouragement of the KLA who had an interest in making the situation look as bad as possible.
Nicola also has a valid point on the neutrality of the international community. We each like to think that our viewpoint is neutral, but foreign policy is complex and sometimes you have to accept some contradictions. For instance - why support (sort of) possible independece for ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, but not allow the same for Serbs in Bosnia? Why do war crimes commited by Serbs have to be tried in the Hague, but not war crimes committed by Iraqis? Why have no senior Kosovo Albanians been arrested for war crimes, when the Hague thinks they were committed by both sides? And organisations such as the OSCE and the UN are not always neutral or reliable - they have vested interests and their own policy goals to pursue. Reports written by individuals in such organisations can lack information or come to an unsupported conclusion - and sometimes those individuals have their own views they want to put across, or their careers to advance. So, whilst Nicola way overstates it, their is a case for saying that the organisations of the international community (the UN, NATO, the OSCE etc) form a system, and that when that system is used with a particular goal (such as stopping ethnic cleansing in Kosovo) there IS a conspiracy against (for instance) Serbia under Milosevic - but its a very open one! The point is Serbia, needs to move on from Milosevic and the events of the past. (JD)
I would like to make a few brief comments. More on this topic I have written above in discussion with JD:
My final message: do not follow Covic's path? -- Kosovar 04:37, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kosovar - I have answered points one and there above. On point, two, which has relevance here, I think it is important for us to note that a number of non-Serbs witnessed KLA encouragement of refugees in the period prior to the bombing. I have met a couple, and they remain unwilling to speak about is openly. I'm more than happy to exclude this element (as speculation) from the main article until we have something further, but I am not willing to pretend that it is impossible or just a Serb lie. I'll do some digging around the international study groups and see if there's anything further I can add.
But, getting back to the point of this section, I think its important that we recognise that there is a broader picture to the event prior to the bombing than we acknowledge in the main article. There are many across the world who perceive a bias of opinion amongst a group of organisations (NATO, the EU, OSCE and so on) who have a common membership and common set of goals, and even amongst the more reliable human rights organisations. Personally, I'm with NATO and the UN every time, but I recognise any dissent. The problem is that very few have the whole picture. This is the source of Nikola's comment. Can we not acknowledge this?
I think it might be a good idea to step back a bit at this point and address the two disputed sentences individually.
Nikola's version of the first disputed sentence is:
Ambi's version is:
Could the two of you please cite your sources on this? I don't know for sure either way, though I've heard anecdotally that the dinar is only used on any significant scale in the Serb-inhabited areas of Kosovo. I certainly can't imagine the Kosovo Albanians using it when they have the Euro to hand, and UNMIK doesn't treat the dinar as legal tender for official transactions. Der Spiegel ran an article on Kosovo recently which said: "In these miniature states [i.e. Serbian enclaves]] surrounded by NATO barbed wire, where the valid currency is still the Dinar and not the Euro..." (see http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,323632,00.html ). According to UNMIK's website, "De facto the Euro is used for almost all transactions." (http://www.unmikonline.org/eu/index_fs.pdf ) If you can find any more evidence, please post it here.
I distrusted anon's edit and haven't tried to find references. Anyway, Blue Guide that you quote suggests that Dinar is in use as small change on entire teritorry, so that is a widespread use even if it is small percenteage in total flow of the capital. Der Spiegel also says that Dinar is used in enclaves and not that they use it only to trade with rest of Serbia, if that was what anon intended to say. Nikola 21:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Having lived in Belgrade until recently, and travelled around Kosovo extensively, I can probably clear this up. The Euro is the main currency for the Albanian and international population. It can't be the official currency as Kosovo is not in the Eurozone. As everywhere across the Balkans, including in Serbia proper, the Euro is also the currency for trade and for large denominations (you might buy a car in Belgrade, in cash, using Euros) and is generally accepted anywhere (you could buy your petrol in Euros anywhere). In Kosovo, the Dinar is still the main and official currency for the Serbian areas (that is, parts of northern Kosovo inlcuding towns such as Mitrovica, and the small enclaves elsewhere) and is used for all transactions from buying bread to paying taxes. Serbian pensions and salaries are still paid to Serbs in Kosovo in Dinars, no doubt a main reason that the Dinar is still used in the Serbia areas. The Dinar isn't used anywhere in Kosovo outside of the Serb areas, for fear of revealling yourself as a Serb! (JD)
PS Apologies for the way I've intserted this, not a very experienced user.
Kos in Albanian means "set yoghurt". In England they call it "Greek-style yoghurt". -- Kosovar 04:59, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As far as the currency is concerned, here are some more facts:
So, if anyone is living or staying in the country, and needs or uses any of the above must use, you guessed it, the EURO. --Kosovar 04:59, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
OK, the essential points are that: 1) the Euro is used for official payments by the UN in Kosovo and by the governmental institutions which it has authorised, across both majority-Albanian and majority-Serbian areas; 2) the Euro is also used by all 'internationals' in Kosovo and by all Kosovo Albanians / Kosovars, again across all areas; 3) the Euro is used ocassionally by Serbs in Serbian areas for large payments and for some trade; 4) the Dinar is used for official payments by the Serbian government to Serbs and a few non-Albanians in Kosovo; 5) the Dinar is also used within Serbian-dominated areas of Kosovo by Serbs amd internationals; 6) the Euro cannot be the official currency of the UN-administered territory called Kosovo, at least until it joins the EU and the associated monetary system. Can we all sign up to these 6 points, or give valid reasons why not? (JD)
Looks as if we're agreed (?) on the usage of Dinars and Euros across Kosovo (Euro everywhere and for official payments, Dinar in Serb areas, roughly). Question is, what is the official currency. I'm certainly not keen to take the word of the BBC, Pravda or USA Today, none of whom have permanent staff in Kosovo, and all of whom aim to simplify their reporting for a more general readership - we should aim for a higher standard. Barcodes and SWIFT codes all very interesting but too technical for this - though we could perhaps include links to relevant articles.
Back to the point in hand - official currency. As told to me by the former head of the EU Pillar, the determination in the UN in Kosovo is that the province has no single official currency; economic matters within UNMIK are handled by the EU Pillar, which could not very well give permission for the Euro to become the official currency. The policy is therefore one of constructive ambiguity. The only place where you will find precision (and, for our purposes, the truth of the matter) is in the UNMIK Regulations and administrative directives. Nowhere in these regulations will you find a reference to an official currency - the UN have not declared an official currency for Kosovo.
As you'll see below, the source of all law in Kosovo [18] is Yugoslav law up to 1989, as amended by any UNMIK Regulations, all of which are available for review [19]. I therefore read through each regulation from the entire list which was relevant to this discussion, looking for any references to currencies. In doing so, I also came across a few other regulations of interest to other discussions on this page. All are listed below.
ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION NO. 1999/1 (On Customs)
Customs and excise duties and sales tax shall be paid in Deutsche Marks. A person wishing to pay such duties and sales tax in local Dinars may do so at the reference rate applicable on the date of payment but shall be charged a twenty five percent (25%) administrative fee thereon to cover handling and transaction costs.
ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION NO. 1999/2 Pursuant to UNMIK Regulation No. 1999/4 the budgest, financial records and accounts of public bodies, agencies or institutions and UNMIK shall be formulated in Deutsche Marks. Pursuant to UNMIK Regulation No. 1999/4, the designated currency to be used for compulsory payments shall be Deutsche Marks. Pursuant to section 4.2 of UNMIK Regulation No. 1999/4, the administrative fee for a person wishing to make compulsory payments in Dinars shall be ten percent of the assessed compulsory payment. Administrative fees and compulsory payments, if paid in Dinars, shall be calculated in accordance with the most recent reference exchange rate quoted by UNMIK.
This was updated (once the Euro arrived) by ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION NO. 2001/24, which provides for the same as 1999/2.
REGULATION NO. 1999/4 The source of Direction 1999/2 by stating that any person whishing to make an official transaction in Dinars may do so, at a particular rate and exhange cost. (see more discussion below)
REGULATION NO. 1999/16 (On the Central Fiscal Authority) Does not mention currencies. Nor does No.2000/7 (amending 1999/19)
REGULATION NO. 1999/20 (On the Banking and Payments Authority) Does not mention currencies.
REGULATION NO. 1999/21 (ON BANK LICENSING, SUPERVISION AND REGULATION) Where credit limits etc are specified, the denominations are in DM.
REGULATION NO. 1999/24 (ON THE LAW APPLICABLE IN KOSOVO) Of general interest. To note that applicable law in Kosovo is Yugoslav law as of March '89, amended by any UNMIK regulations. The law applicable in Kosovo shall be:(a) The regulations promulgated by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General and subsidiary instruments issued thereunder; and (b) The law in force in Kosovo on 22 March 1989.
ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION NO. 2000/16 (ON THE AUTHORITY OF THE INTERIM ADMINISTRATION) Again of general interest. The official gazette shall contain UNMIK regulations and administrative directions issued by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General. All information contained in each issuance of the official gazette shall be in the English, Albanian and Serbian languages, published together as one volume. In the case of any disparity between the translations as to the meaning of information contained within the official gazette, the English text shall prevail.
ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION NO. 2000/17 (ON THE CURRENCY PERMITTED TO BE USED IN KOSOVO) Amends Yugoslav criminal law to make the DM the 'designated currency' to be used for fines, charges and penalties.
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2000/1 (ON THE KOSOVO JOINT INTERIM ADMINISTRATIVE STRUCTURE) General interest. Marks the transition to a structure determined entirely by the UN: Current Kosovo structures, be they executive, legislative or judicial (such as the “Provisional Government of Kosovo” and “Presidency of the Republic of Kosovo”), shall be transformed and progressively integrated, to the extent possible and in conformity with the present regulation, into the Joint Interim Administrative Structure.
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2000/18 (ON TRAVEL DOCUMENTS) General interest. Residents of Kosovo may apply for a travel document. The travel document does not confer nationality upon its holder, nor does it affect in any way the holder's nationality. The travel document does not guarantee its holder admission to other States.
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2000/43 (ON THE NUMBER, NAMES AND BOUNDARIES OF MUNICIPALITIES) Kosovo shall have thirty municipalities as set out in Schedule A annexed to the present regulation. Official communications shall not contain any name for a municipality that is not a name set out in Schedule A to the present regulation, except that in those municipalities where ethnic or linguistic communities other than Serbian or Albanian form a substantial part of the population, the names of the municipalities shall also be given in the languages of those communities. Schedule A is here [20]. Note that Albanian is listed first (sort of).
UMIK REGULATION NO. 2000/54 (ON THE AUTHORITY OF THE INTERIM ADMINISTRATION) In the performance of the duties entrusted to the interim administration under United Nations Security Council resolution 1244 (1999), UNMIK will, as necessary, issue legislative acts in the form of regulations. Such regulations will remain in force until repealed by UNMIK or superseded by such rules as are subsequently issued by the institutions established under a political settlement, as provided for in United Nations Security Council resolution 1244 (1999). Meaning - UNMIK sets the rules, but that all rules are interim until final status is resolved (roughly).
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2001/11 (ON VALUE ADDED TAX IN KOSOVO) Worth noting that under UNMIK definitions, Kosovo remains a part of the (at that time) Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro, unter international law, is considered the direct successor state of the FRY. 1.13 “Import” means a supply entering into Kosovo from another country, either directly or after transiting through another part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. 1.14 “Intra-FRY inflow” means a supply entering into Kosovo from another part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2001/26 (ON PAYMENT TRANSACTIONS) For the purpose of regulating the rights and obligations of participants in payment transactions in any foreign currency in Kosovo. The present regulation shall supersede any provision in the applicable law which is inconsistent with it. CHAPTER 1, SECTION 1:(p) “Foreign currency” means any currency other than the Yugoslav Dinar. Under this legislation, the Euro is a foreign currency, unless anyone can demonstrate otherwise?
UNMIK REGULATION NO. 2004/41 (ON THE PROMULGATION OF THE KOSOVO WATER LAW ADOPTED BY THE ASSEMBLY OF KOSOVO) UNMIK didn't like the use of the spelling 'Kosova' throughout the document and replaces it with 'Kosovo'. (a) The word “Kosova” in the title and throughout the text of the Law shall be deleted and replaced with “Kosovo”;
From reading through all the above, and I have not listed those economic regulations (eg. tax or customs) where they did not refer to a currency, I think we have some clarity on currencies. The first point is that only UNMIK regulations are the source of law in Kosovo. UNMIK regulations refer to all currencies other than the Dinar as foreign currencies. UNMIK nevertheless identifies the DM and later the Euro as the currencies to be used for the budgets, financial records and accounts of public bodies and as the 'designated currency' for official transactions, though the Dinar can also be used for the latter (at a cost).
There are only a few conclusions we can draw from this. This is not one of them: the Euro is the (only) official currency for Kosovo. I take Ford's point about what is and is not an 'official currency'. Clearly a number of states use another currency as an 'official currency'. Montenegro also uses the Euro and Montenegrin law refers to the Euro as its official currency (the Dinar is specifically excluded) - and the EU is not entirely happy about it. Kosovo, however, has not declared in any official document that its official currency is the Euro (as many countries have for the Dollar and as Montenegro has for the Euro).
It is my belief that UNMIK has chosen, deliberately, not to declare a de jure 'official currency', precisely because it is an agency of the UN and as its economic arm is run by the EU. The Euro is nevertheless the most widely used, and along with the Dinar is the only currency available for payment of fines etc. In the Euro's favour it is also the currency for financial reporting. However, in the Dinar's favour it is the only currency not considered (under the law applicable in Kosovo), a 'foreign currency' - the Euro is a foreign currency in Kosovo under UN law. This point rather outweighs the importance of what currency is used for financial reporting. And, if we take the Regulations above to their logical conclusion, as Yugoslav law is still in force unless amended by UNMIK Regulations, then we can take it that the only legally-sanctioned 'official currency' remains the Yugoslav Dinar - until an UNMIK Regulation is produced which states otherwise and overrides law as of March 1989. I'm more than willing to be proved wrong on this - but please come up with something more than some website text with no legal force. (JD)
Note also that Wikipedia carries the following in it's definition of Currency [21], "Typically, each country has given monopoly to a single currency, controlled by a state owned central bank, although exceptions to this rule exist. Several countries can use the same name, each for their own currency (e.g. Canadian dollars and US dollars), several countries can use the same currency (e.g. the euro), or a country can declare the currency of another country to be legal tender (e.g. Panama and El Salvador have declared US currency to be legal tender)." Under this definition, the Euro may very well be legal tender in Kosovo, and used as the financial reporting currency, the designated currency for official payments, and for paying official fines alongside the Dinar - but this does not necessarily make it the 'official currency'. Unless anyone can come up with a recognised definition of 'official currency' (I've tried) which covers this, I propose we note that both the Dinar and the Euro are legal tender in Kosovo, but that use of the Dinar is limited to the Serb areas. (JD)
PS - I've now created an account, but have no idea how to add my tag to an edit. Any advice appreciated - I'm registered as JAD. Cheers! (JD)
I've also taken a look at the strange case of the Banking and Payments Authority, which states on its website that "In accordance with UNMIK regulation No.1999/4 the Euro was adopted as one of the official currencies in Kosovo from January 1, 2002. It replaced the German Mark being then the measurement and reporting currency in the territory of Kosovo. Today, Euro is the most widely used currency in Kosovo.".
As you'll see from the list above, and from reading the specific Regulation, UNMIK Reg 1999/4 says no such thing. Section 1 says that parties to a contract can use any currency they wish. Section 2 removes any Yugoslav legal control over the use of currencies in Kosovo (but does not revoke any other aspect of Yugoslav law). Section 3 says that UNMIK and the SRSG (the Head of UNMIK) determines which currency is to be used for financial reporting. Section 4 says that UNMIK will designate the currency for official payments, except that the Dinar shall always be acceptable. Sections 5, 6 and 7 are repetitive. Administrative Direction No. 1999/2 then identifies the DM as the currency to be used, alongside the Dinar for fines, and for as the currency for financial reporting and official payments. This is later updated by Direction 2001/24 to replace the DM with the Euro.
It's pretty clear to me that this piece of legislation does not declare the Euro as the (or even 'an') official currency of Kosovo. Even the BPA's website calls the Euro 'one of the official currencies'. And I seem to remeber that a number of countries allow or specify financial reporting in one or more currencies without making the other currency an 'official currency'. I'd state again that a currency needs to be declared 'official' in order to be so. Nor is the Euro being the designated currency for 'official payments' sufficient to make it the 'official currency'. Over the course of my readings, I'm beginning to think that perhaps ONLY the Dinar is the official currency, as laid out in Yugoslav law prior to 1989 and unamended by UNMIK. Again, willing to be proved wrong, though. I think the best like to take is 'the Euro and the Dinar are both legal tender in Kosovo, though the Dinar is only used privately within Serb areas'. (JD)
Those states/jurisdictions do so with the express agreement of the Eurozone countries, as they had done with the various predecessor currencies (the Lira and the Franc in the above examples). Kosovo does so without formal approval, though there is some tacit acceptance that no damage is done to the Euro by letting Kosovo adopt the currency as one of the legal currencie, alongside the Dinar. On independence, should that come about, Kosovo would not be able to use the Euro formally. (JD)
Nikola's version of the second disputed sentence is:
My (and others') preferred version is:
I've explained my own view of this above and I think the onus here is on Nikola to explain who claims that NGOs are "connected to NATO" and to come up with some form of words that is neutral. -- ChrisO 20:04, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[22]: Predsednik Demokratske stranke Srbije, Vojislav Koštunica, posetio je juče Kosovo. On je u Kosovskoj Mitrovici ocenio da Prelazno administrativno veće "nije dobra ideja" , kao i da je "neprihvatljivo". Prema njegovoj oceni, taj projekat bi mogao "da padne u vodu" ako Srbi u njemu ne budu učestvovali, a "sa međunarodnom zajednicom treba sarađivati, ali ne sve verovati". - President of the Democratic Party of Serbia, Vojislav Kostunica, [Shortly afterwards, he was elected for the president of Serbia] Visited Kosovo yesterday. [...] He commented that [...] "the international comunity should be cooperated with, but not trusted completely".
[23] and [24]: Demokratska stranka Srbije kaze: »... razbojnicko hapsenje otklanja i poslednje nedoumice o prirodi Haskog tribunala kod onih koji bi ih jos mogli imati. Nesumnjivo je da Tribunal nije ni pravna, ni sudska, ni medjunarodna institucija, vec natovsko, odnosno americko sredstvo pritiska i zavodjenja reda u svetu«. - Democratic Party of Serbia [Currently the ruling party in Serbia] says: »... this barbaric arrest removes the last doubtfullness about the nature of the Hague tribunal in those who still might have it [emphasis mine]. It is udisputable that the Tribunal is neither legal nor judicial nor international institution, but natovian, that is, American instrument for pressure and inducing order in thw world.«.
[25]: [An interview with Sonja Liht, president of the Fond for Open Society] Q: Na nevladine organizacije ovde se nije dobronamerno gledalo ni pre NATO agresije. - Nongovernment organisations were not looked with good intentions befor the NATO aggression. A: Krajnje je vreme da se shvati da nevladine organizacije nisu neprijatelj nego komplementarne i neophodne forme koje pomažu državi da funkcioniše na opšte dobro svih njenih građana. - It is a final moment for understanding that nongovernment organisations are not an enemy but complementary and neccessary forms which are helping a state to function for common good of all its citizens.
[26] or [27]: Nataša Kandić: Zavladala je atmosfera u kojoj se nevladine organizacije koje se bave ljudskim pravima vide kao neprijatelji srpskog naroda, ukoliko ne slede "patriotski" ton koji preovlađuje u društvu; Sve podseća na dane uoči NATO intervencije u SR Jugoslaviji i obećanje Vojislava Šešelja koji je konstatovao da, eto, Srbi ne mogu da dohvate NATO avione, ali mogu njihovu logistiku na zemlji, odnosno nevladine organizacije, među kojima Žene u crnom - Nataša Kandić: [director of the Fond for the humanitarian right] An atmosphere exists in which nongovernement organisations which deal with human rights are seen as enemies of the Serbian people, unless thez follow "patriotic" [quotes her] tone which is overwhelming in the society; Everything remains on days shortly before the NATO intervention in FR Yugoslavia and promise of Vojislav Šešelj [His party currently has more than 33% in the parliament, its presidential candidate came close second to the current president] who stated that, Serbs maybe can't reach NATO aircraft, but they can their logistics on the ground, including the Womeni in black.
[28]: Istraživanje Evropskog pokreta u Srbiji i Instituta društvenih nauka: Građani Srbije ne veruju međunarodnim institucijama i organizacijama, pokazuje ovo istraživanje. [...] Kad je reč o drugim međunarodnim organizacijama, prema UN, OEBS-u i Partnerstvu za mir preovladava nepoverenje [...] Najslabiji rejting imaju NATO i Haški tribunal, koji, kao deo sistema Ujedinjenih nacija, verovatno snižava i percepciju te organizacije, baš kao i njihov protektorat na Kosovu. [...] Poverenje u nevladine organizacije među građanima Srbije kreće se između niskog i srednjeg, u poređenju sa poverenjem u druge institucije. [...] Istraživanje je sprovedeno u periodu od 16. do 25. decembra 2002. godine na teritoriji Srbije bez Kosova i Metohije. Intervjuisano je 2.057 punoletnih građana, u 103 slučajno odbarane mesne zajednice u 68 opština - An examination of the European Movement in Serbia and the Institute of the Social Sciences: Citizens of Serbia don't trust to the international institutions and organisations, this report shows. [...] When talking about other international organisatrions, the UN, OSCE, and the Partnership for Peace are mostly mistrusted [...] The lowest rating have NATO and the Hague Tribunal which, as a part of the system of the United Nations, probably lowers the perception of that organisation, as well as their Protectorate on Kosovo. [...] Trust in nongovernment organisations among the citizens of Serbia is around low and medium, compared to other institutions. [...] The examination is conducted on the teritorry of Serbia without Kosovo and Metohia. 2,057 adult citizens were interviewed in 103 randomly chosen local communities in 68 municipalities
Related to this, I see that you were not so diligent to revert the latest anon edits. Do you agree that this article should not have SCG template? Have you found references which claim that the name means "yoghurt" in Albanian? Nikola 22:01, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Saying that "percentage of non-Albanians has remained fairly constant until after the Kosovo War" is VERY misleading. Percentage of non-Albanians From DHoK:
How can someone say that this is "fairly constant" is beyond me. So I will change this. Nikola 12:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I realize this page is a minefield, but a few factual issues. In reverting (though not immediately) my changes in the order of Albanian and Serbian (I had placed Albanian first, since it is and has long been the dominant language), Nikola stated that Serbian was the “official, majority, primary, sourced, etc. language”. I do not know what ‘sourced’ is supposed to mean, and ‘primary’ is almost designed to be subjective and thus indisputable, but if Nikola is actually claiming that Serbian is the majority language of this territory he is the only such person I know of. The only way to make such a claim is to look at Serbia as a whole; and that would be like saying that English is the majority language of Puerto Rico or Québec — a misleading statement, and meant to be so, I think.
I will not change it without some documentation, but it is curious that the 80% figure has slid past the neutrality watch. I can think of no neutral source before the war that used it; the figure in common use (except perhaps in Serbia) at the time was the higher 90% figure — that is, 90% of the territory was Albanian even before the war. Is there a reason why 80% is now being used?
— Ford 13:28, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)
Perhaps inadvertently, you inserted your comment between the two paragraphs of mine. I have moved it. In response to your point, I am glad that you concede that Albanian is the majority language of this territory. I suppose we could find examples on both sides from elsewhere in the encyclopedia. In my opinion, those cases where the local majority language is clearly one thing and the majority language of a larger territory to which the locality belongs is another should be resolved in favor of the local language, and in time I will address those as well. Only territorial claims prevent agreement on that matter. I would point out that Kosova (Kosovo) is not a part of Србија (Serbia) de facto; Београд (Belgrade) has no control over what happens here. Yes, there is international recognition of Србија’s claim in public, but everyone recognizes in private that Kosova (Kosovo) is now under the shared control of its elected administration and the Western powers; it is the Western powers, not Београд (Belgrade), who are preventing the territory’s full independence, and they are doing so for domestic political reasons of their own. We have an obligation to present both sides, but the status of the territory de jure is by definition a point of view, and in this case, moreover, a point of view not in accord with reality. We can acknowledge that the point of view exists without conceding that it is accurate, because in this case, it clearly is not.
— Ford 14:21, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
The Western powers are not “on the field with Serbia’s permission”. To say so is ridiculous. Such permission would never have come from the likes of Koštunica, let alone Milošević. The Western powers bombed Serbia. I am sure you of all people have not forgotten that. We may disagree on whether intervention was justified, but surely both of us can acknowledge the fact that Serbia did not invite the bombing; and what happened as a consequence of the bombing was no more by invitation than the bombing itself. I know from past experience that there is no point in arguing these points with you, but for the sake of others reading, I will point out that you have called my points “blatantly incorrect”, when it is you who say things like “Belgrade agreed to give control of the province to the UN”, and “Kosovo is a part of Serbia both de facto and de jure”. Serbia, I will say again, has no control over what happens in the territory. If the Western powers decided to grant independence, it would happen tomorrow. Even most Serbs recognize this fact, even if they do not like it.
If, as you say, the Albanian name is derived from the Serb name and they are therefore the same thing, I cannot imagine why you care which one comes first. That being the case, please leave the Albanian name first. Besides, the so-called English name is listed as ‘Kosovo and Metohija’, which is transliterated from the Serb name, and very few people in English use the full name, so the Serb name is essentially listed first anyway. I cannot imagine why you would insist that it be listed both first and second.
— Ford 10:59, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)
Small things first, then, Nikola: ‘Kosovo and Metohija’ is not a translation, though it is true that ‘и’ is translated as ‘and’. The two significant words are transliterated, and transliterated, moreover, in the fashion that Serbs do themselves, on those occasions when they cannot or choose not to write in the Cyrillic script. I know the distinction between ‘transliteration’ and ‘translation’, but I didn’t think anyone would seriously nitpick on the ‘and’. Was that really worth mentioning? (And how do you argue that ‘Kosovo’ and ‘Metohija’ are English translations of anything? Do those look like English words to you?) My point stands: saying ‘Kosovo and Metohija’ is essentially using the Serb name anyway.
— Ford (continues below)
I do not judge the rightness or sense of my actions based on what another group of persons does. I don’t suppose that being a “bigger Albanian” than the Albanians is a good or bad thing; the statement has no use. I simply believe that, if we are going to mention local names at all (and we should), we must mention them in the order in which they are used. Most of the persons in Kosovo call it ‘Kosova’. A small number call it ‘Косово и Метохија’. Therefore, ‘Kosova’ should go first. I imagine that the Albanians would prefer to have ‘Kosova’ first, and in fact to have it used throughout the article, and to have Albanian names used for the cities, rather than Serb names. I agree with them, even if it is a spelling issue. But then they have to contend with nationalist reverts. I am not an Albanian or a Serb, so at the very least I am not motivated by nationalism one way or the other.
— Ford (continues below)
I do not think you properly understand the distinction between ‘de jure’ and ‘de facto’. We can disagree about whether the Western powers should grant independence to Kosovo, whether under “international law” (which is hardly a definite thing) they may grant it independence, but in the real world of real control, they can grant it independence, whenever they want. They didn’t need Serbia’s permission to occupy Kosovo, and the use of coercion brings us into the realm of fact, not Serbian nationalist theory. Or do you think that somehow Serbia could stop them?
—Ford 05:06, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
You are more than welcome to join the discussion, Kosovar. And I hope you didn’t misunderstand me. I only said that the Western powers are in a position to grant independence to the territory (or deny it) because they have ultimate control — again, it is not that they should have control, but that they do. Clearly the democratic will in Kosovo is for independence; the reason it has not happened is because of a Western veto. Virtually every state has a minority territory that would like to be self-governing, and most of the time these states will thwart such declarations of independence elsewhere so as not to encourage their own minorities. Usually their thwarting is limited to diplomatic isolation and refusal to trade, as with Somaliland; but in the case of Kosovo, they have a more effective tool — actual troops on the ground. The flip side to that is that Serbia, despite Nikola’s empty assertions, is in no position to deny Kosovan independence. In the meantime, if you were interested in lightening the Serb nationalist influence in the main article (which I agree is pervasive), I would back you up.
— Ford 12:53, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
OK. First - I'd like to say, it's actually very good to see ethnic Serbs, ethnic Albanians and internationals debating these issues openly - it's rare on the ground in Kosovo/Kosova. Let's also be clear that this place we're discussing is (de jure - in law, as recognised by the UN) PRESENTLY a province of Serbia. This is not to prejudice in any way its FUTURE status, which is to be determined at some future point. Nor does this say anything of the will of the inhabitants of this place - the absolute majority want an independent nation state; a significant minorty want to remain part of Serbia. In practical terms (de facto) it is governed by an agency of the United Nations with significant elements of self-government, supported by a degree of democratic accountability. None of these present practical arrangements are to prejudice future arrangments once status has been determined. Can we all agree to this?
On names. I guess in part we have to fit in with Wikipedia. The UN refers to this place as Kosovo in English - as in the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK, the body authorised by the UN to run Kosovo. As with all multilingual places, official bodies will use all main local languages and we should make reference to the Serbian and Albanian translation. That the English name for this place (Kosovo) is the same as the Serbian is a matter of historical precedent and not an indication of a preferred status for this place. Perhaps if it had been independent from the 19th century, we would be calling it Kosova (or more likely, something without a slavic root). And if and when this place becomes independent, it can call itself whatever the hell it likes - but it's inhabitants should be aware that the English name for it might not change (Holland, anyone)? Can we all agree to this?
On place names. These need to be in both languages. I'm in favour of putting Albanian first, Serbian second, again with no prejudice to the potential future offical names of these places. (JD)
Another point. On the Kosovo and Metohija issue. The official name of this place in Serbian is Kosovo i Metohija; Serbian can be written in latin or cyrillic scripts, both are official, but cyrillic tends to be preferred for documents. The translation in Enlgish of this is Kosovo and Metohija; anything else (ie. Metohia) is a mistranslation. The common useage in Serbian is Kosovo, and occasionally (ie. if you're over 50!), Kosmet. The common useage in English is Kosovo. The United Nations refers to this place as the Province of Kosovo (http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm). (JD)
I agree with Nikola on this point (and this point only). But Nikola, I find it bizarre that you have again interrupted my post for your own (above), and said that you were doing so in hopes that no one objected, when I have already objected myself and it was my post that you were interrupting. Don’t do that again.
— Ford 12:34, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
Apologies also if anyone feels I'm cutting across a discussion here - all looks a bit chaotic, but hey at least we're having a serious discussion. I'm assuming the aim of the discussion is to resolve what languages we're going to use in the article? I suggested, above, that Kosovo remain the name we use as the English (as used by the UN, and a historical accident not implying any cultural dominance, especially if you think it's somehow referring to yoghurt...). We need to note the Serbian and Albanian language names, plus the more official names in both lanugages (ie. APKiM and Republic of Kosovo). We need to note the three (?) official langauges and other languages used in the parliament etc. We need to note the use of languages by ethnic groups across Kosovo. I think we can all agree on this?
Wow - I've just read your earlier discussions on use of language! Seems you were heading in this direction outline above. The real sticking point comes to towns/cities and places names. Ultimately, they either have one name or more than one name. But, looking back at the article, we don't often do this. Why don't we take it on a case-by case basis? We might (and I'm not looking to open a discussion here, refer to the main town as Pristina, followed by the Albanian, as this common useage). We might refer to Gracanica in that form when relevant as it's entirely Serb. And we might refer to some other village in ALbanian, with Serbian following. Not looking for agreement on the last three suggestions. What do people think of treating place names on a case-by-case basis? (JD)
Separately, Nikola and Ford, whether or not Metohia was a form used in the past, it is certainly neither used nor correct now. Serbian cyrillic has a consistent structure and clear transliteration into latin script - there is no reason on earth to use Metohia over Metohija. In any case, Kosovo is not referred to in English as Kosovo and Anything, just Kosovo, unless we're trying to distinguish between adminstrative structures over time, in which case we might refer to 'such-and-such a policy prevalent in the Autonomous Provice of Kosovo and Metohija' (much as we might, if needed, refer to the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' if needed). Nevertheless, there is not a transliteration problem with Metohija - we're not trying to transliterate (for example) Шeшeљ (Šešelj) into English Latin script, where we might write Seselj (and note that there are only five letters in Cyrillic, six in Latin); Метохија has eight letters in Serbian Cyrillic and eight in English Latin - Metohija. Doesn't matter if they got it wrong fifty or more years ago, because the word 'Metohia' was never in any kind of common use in English, even among Balkan experts. Unless you can prove me wrong! (JD)
Also, on occupation by NATO. De jure and de facto, NATO and the UN could not have entered and set up administration in Kosovo without the formal permission of the then-FRY. The reality is that we came to a deal where they surrendered and allowed the UN in. The UN could not break its own laws on the protection of sovereignty without the formal say-so of Serbia. That this was achieved by force is relevant only in terms of how it came about. Had Serbia refused to submit, we would have needed to fight a ground war, probably all the way to Belgrade, to gain control and completely remove the Serbian government, much as has been done in Iraq (where the government, after the first Gulf War, in similar fashion had given control over its arispace to the UN-backed US and UK forces). This is not to say that Serbia voluntarily gave control of Kosovo to the UN - the point is that it gave control, involuntarily, as provided for under UNSCR 1244. (JD)
There's something wrong with the discussion when a single section of it grows longer than 32K :) Nikola 00:33, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The point of giving local names in the first place is to allow users of the encyclopedia to know the names that are used by the people who actually live there. We do not give the name of Hungary in Swahili, or the name of Argentina in Mandarin. It is true that Serbs do live in Kosovo, but they are a small minority; we can give the Serb name of Kosovo, but to give it precedence over the Albanian name, by which it is known to the vast majority of its residents, is a transparent nationalist action designed to reinforce the Serb claim to Kosovo, which has historical grounds but is in complete defiance of the principle of self-determination. I support the self-determination of both Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo, and in particular would support the moving of the border to allow majority-Serb areas in proximity to the rest of Serbia to remain within Serbia while Kosovo becomes independent. To resist the border shift is simply Albanian nationalism, and is hypocritical on the part of Kosovars; any Albanian who insists that even Serb parts of Kosovo must become part of an independent Kosovo or greater Albania is demanding to be free of Serb domination but demanding the right to dominate Serbs in return. This nationalism on both parts is nauseating. However, the Serb claim to all of Kosovo is far more undemocratic than the Albanian claim to all of Kosovo. Nikola, demanding an explicit expression of something that I have already made quite clear, wants to know why Albanian should come first. My answer is this: the encyclopedia is meant to be a source of information, not a platform for sectarian advocacy. I have rewritten the opening to be as neutral as possible, but since it must be linear, I have put Albanian first. Nikola can say what he wants, but neutral observers will know that his insistence on placing Serbian first is an act of nationalism and advocacy of territorial claim. He has offered no better counterargument; and of the persons who have expressed an opinion on this, only he feels as he does.
— Ford 02:53, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
It's not as much a question of the "local" language as it is of the English name. Clearly, the article should live at the English name for a place/town, and also list it first, followed by the official names in the order used by the local government, and then other names. Since the English name will mostly be the same as either the Serbian or the Albanian one, the order for most articles will be set by the choice of the English name. I guess that English names for larger towns and places in Kosovo probably turn out to be mostly derived from Serbian, since they have been in use for quite a time. Less known places will, depending on the spelling, probably settle on the language of the local majority population.
Another thing that I might already have said earlier: Kosovo and Metohija should get its own article, since it is a de-jure territorial unit of Serbia with an operating administration in Serbia proper. There is also the history of the term to write about. As for the geographic region, it's usually just called "Kosovo" in Serbian, though that is felt by many to be a casual use (like "Bosnia" for "Bosnia and Herzegovina") since "Kosovo" doesn't really include all of the province. I think an accurate introduction would be:
I'm not sure where to put the Cyrillic spelling, but please do include the Latin one. Serbian has an official and widely used latin script or transliteration, which ever way you want it, and there is no need to rob the readers of the ease of reading Serbian names in Latinics. Zocky 03:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Looks as if some of the long-winded discussions below are coming to some agreement, at least on the basic principles on which to base the main article. I'm not an experienced user and have no idea how this process is supposed to work, but how about we make a list of elements of the article, confirm where we're happy that a section covers a) the technical reality, b) has a NPOV, and c) covers both 'sides' where that is necessary. What do we think?
Currently we have
1 Geography 1.1 Geographical regions
2 Name 2.1 Former official names 2.2 Adjective form 2.3 Kosovo placenames
3 Flag
4 History
5 Politics and international status
6 Administrative subdivisions
7 Economy
8 Demographics
9 See also
10 External links 10.1 Provisional Institutions of Self-Government 10.2 Pro-Albanian 10.3 Pro-Serb
Can I humbly suggest the following structure:
Intro
1 Geography (where it is, what's next to it, what the landscape is like, main towns and rivers etc in English/Albanian/Serbian)
2 History (link to other article, brief summary noting the major periods, inlcuding SFRY, and a NPOV sentence on the post-91 period)
3 Demoraphics (noting contradicting and incomplete sources, rough outline of post-WWII, the mass movements on both sides, and where we *might* be now)
4 Language (noting all main languages, the formal and informal titles in English/Albanian/Serbian and less of this 'is it Slavic or not')
5 International status (current technical status, position of UN, desires of the various sides, note on process to Final Status from here)
6 Politics (democratic involvement and main parties in and from Kosovo, inlcuding Serbs voting for Serbian elections and Serb parties)
7 Administration (note on pre-99 APKiM, early UNMIK period, and overview of current institutions, incl relevant ones on Serbia side)
8 Economy (communist period, war and devastation, rebuilding, currency, privatisation, problems of black economy etc)
9 See also (other articles)
10 External links (International, Albanian, Serb)
All parts of the current structure should fit into this (eg Flag into International Status, Name into Language, Status or Administration) What do we think of this? We can then take each section, propose a paragraph or two, tweak them and build the article back up, bringing al sides along as we do? (JD)
OK, so with agreement that we at some point sort out what links we're going to put in, we can start moving forward. Nikola - more than happy to use less sections, perhaps put Status and Administration into Politics, although given the importance of current and future status this seems to me to underrate the issue. And I suppose we could put language into demographics, but we have to account for the importance of language and terminology in the current political debate. Can we agree on:
1 Geography (where it is, what's next to it, what the landscape is like, main towns and rivers etc - language issue TBC)
2 History (link to other article, brief summary noting the major periods, inlcuding SFRY, and a NPOV sentence on the post-91 period)
3 Demoraphics (noting contradicting and incomplete sources, rough outline of post-WWII, the mass movements on both sides, and where we *might* be now; also points on ethnic and religious balances and languages used)
4 Politics and administration - International status (current technical status, position of UN, desires of the various sides, note on process to Final Status from here) - Related issues (official languages, names and terminology, Serbia/Albania/potential new flags, travel documents, - Politics (democratic involvement and main parties in and from Kosovo, inlcuding Serbs voting for Serbian elections and Serb parties) - Administration (note on pre-99 APKiM, early UNMIK period, and overview of current institutions, incl relevant ones on Serbia side)
5 Economy (communist period, war and devastation, rebuilding, currencies, privatisation, problems of black economy etc)
6 See also (other articles)
7 External links (TBC)
For those who may not have seen it above, can I also refer you to the pretty good UK Foreign Office summary on Kosovo [35].
Can we all begin to agree on some of this? Some of the current structure just seems to exacerbate disagreement (a separate section on flags?!), where we should be looking for accepted generalities, contested actualities and references to the major sides in any particular area of controversy. (JD)
Dear friends of Kosova,
Just a note to wish you all a Merry Christmas, and may your New Year be bright.
I look forward to discussing with you after the winter break.
From me personally and from all Kosovars. --Kosovar 03:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand why the map I uploaded earlier was considered "biased" by Ford? I want a clarification from him. That map was sent to me by a Kosovan who happens to be living in Pristina. Menj 05:35, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm not so sure I detect much Serbian bias in this article, except when strange edits pop up. The simplest way to avoid any bias is to use UN standards where possible. As the only legitimate (or at least, internationally santioned) authority in the territory, we should be taking UN terms, definitions and usages wherever possible. Helpfully, UNMIK has its own map of Kosovo, which you can find at http://www.unmikonline.org/maps.htm, named 'UNMIK map, United Nations Cartographic Section'. Can anyone give a good reason why we should not use this map? (JD) (And a Happy New Year to you all!)
Fair points, but we need to find a map which is authoritative. The best solution would be a map showing both Albanian and Serbian names, but none exists as the only cartographic authorities for Kosovo are UNMIK and the Republic of Serbia, and the UN relies on the Serbian maps. The only option remaining (apart from using the UN maps as suggested by me above) is to create our own map using the UN dual-name listing of towns and places. But if no one is willing to put in the time and effort to do this, we should be using the UN maps (unfortunately Serb language, not that this implies any moral claim). Agree that elsewhere we should shoot for an English-usage middle ground for place names, but can't think where this applies except Pristina (and, to note, Prishtina or Pristina are also acceptable in Latin script in Serbian, so none of this is as clear cut as we might think). So, which is it - a whole new map, or the UN ones? (JD)
Chris' rewrite is substantially better than Ford's nonsense, but I don't like several parts.
First, saying that Kosovo is disputed territory. According to the article, a disputed territory is territory which is in "disagreement over the possession/control of land between two or more states". Obviously, this doesn't apply to Kosovo.
Second, saying that it is formally a province of Serbia. This implies that factually it is not. Consider the opposite wording: "a province of Serbia formally administered by the United Nations", and note the POV.
Third, "where it is officially called Kosovo and Metohija". This implies that it is not called so at other places.
Finally, saying that the independence is recognised by Albania is not true. Current government is not a continuation of the government which was (I think) recognised by Albania. If not, why would current governement seek to again declare independence in 2005?
And, of course, name order. Nikola 11:28, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sigh. I don’t know where everyone else is, Nikola. I tire of this, but until someone else jumps in and helps I suppose I will do it myself.
First, Kosovo is a disputed territory. The wording was an expression in plain English — not your strong suit, I know, but stay with me for a moment. I did not link to the page Territorial dispute, and I do not think the definition you cite from that page is accurate anyway. Is Kosovo a territory — a piece of land? Undoubtedly. Is it disputed? Undoubtedly. You have no argument.
Second, in practical terms, Kosovo is no longer a province of Serbia. It is, as everyone else recognizes, a protectorate of the UN and NATO. Belgrade is not running the show in Kosovo, and at most, at most, has been allowed to veto the full independence that most Kosovars want. But your assessment of the implications is just that. The inferences you draw are not anyone else’s responsibility. The statement “still formally a province of Serbia” from ChrisO’s version is accurate, and rather than leave anything to implication, it spells out the rest: it is “administered by the United Nations, and its final status is as yet undetermined”. You have no argument.
Third, in fact, virtually no one speaking English calls the territory anything but ‘Kosovo’. The full formal name given to it by Serbia is probably not even used that often by Serbs — it is just too long. Compare ‘Bosnia’ for ‘Bosnia and Hercegovina’, or ‘America’ for ‘United States of America’. Here you have read the implications correctly; it is just that you are misrepresenting reality. You have no argument.
Finally, whether or not Albania has recognized the independence of Kosovo under its present hybrid government has no bearing on whether Albania recognizes Kosovo’s independence as a formality. Has Albania retracted its recognition? Is it likely to? And if the locally-elected portion of the present hybrid government plans a second declaration of independence, that does not imply that they have abandoned the first. They are obviously hoping to be recognized by more states than one. You have no argument.
Your petulance on the language issue is blatant chauvinism. But you do not adhere to any standard of modern liberalism (“It is not true that Kosovo Albanians have the right of self-determination”) or even factual accuracy (“Serbs are not a minority in Kosovo”). I do not want to provoke you, but your insistence not only that Serbia does rule Kosovo (obviously not true) but that it perpetually should rule Kosovo falls into one of two categories. Either Serbia will rule Kosovo by force without the consent of its unwilling inhabitants, in which case we are talking about imperialism, or Serbia will rule Kosovo without its unwilling inhabitants at all, in which case we are talking about ethnic cleansing. Which of those two are you advocating?
— Ford 12:24, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
Can we stay on-topic?! I think Nikola has some points, and speaking as possibly the only person here who has had any direct experience of the international politics of Kosovo (as a former diplomat), I don't think you can accuse me of being Serb nationalist!
Is Kosovo part of Serbia? Yes - Kosovo is, in international law, a part of Serbia, as recognied by every UN member state, including Albania. Though a Republic of Kosovo was announced, the declaration was later (and quietly) rescinded by the major Kosovo Albanian political parties in a deal with the UN (mid-December 1999, for which see the UN's Chronology of events since 1999, http://www.unmikonline.org/chrono.htm#jun99 which I would encourage you all to read). UNMIK continue to block fresh declarations of independence by the assembly; all attempts have been invalidated (according to the laws of Kosovo which all political parties accept). Please provide current evidence to support any claim that a Republic of Kosovo is still claimed, or that Albania recognises such an entity. These statements are totally out of date.
Is Kosovo disputed? No. Serbia thinks Kosovo is part of Serbia, and it's right (under international law). Yes, Serbia wants to administer Kosovo as well, but that's a different matter and Serbia abides by the Kumanovo Agreement under which the UN provides the administration. No Republic of Kosovo is claimed and so does not dispute the territory. Albania does not dispute the status of Kosovo, and does not recognise a Republic of Kosovo, which no longer exists. No one disputes the current position. All Kosovo Albanian parties support the current situation, but would like indepdence. Please provide current evidence of any party which disputes the current UN administration of Kosovo, which remains part of Serbia in law. What we should be saying about Kosovo is that Final Status has yet to be determined.
I'm beginning to think that some people here are basing most of what they say on vague media reports from a couple of years ago. (JD)
- - - - -
You have generally been pretty sensible, JD, but here you are showing your own bias (in favor of diplomacy, geopolitical niceties, and international law), and your statement that Kosovo is not disputed is, frankly, pretty daffy. If there were no dispute, the UN could simply withdraw and leave matters to Serbia. Of course, if the UN withdrew, the KLA would return to arms instantly, and without a moment’s thought. The only reason Kosovo is not still experiencing armed conflict between Serbian forces and the KLA is because NATO and the UN intervened. If there were no dispute, there would be no need for final status discussions, since all parties would all be in agreement — Kosovo is part of Serbia, let’s all go home. But you know that is not true. The Kosovar Albanians most definitely dispute the right of Serbia to rule Kosovo. The idea that all Kosovar Albanian parties support the current situation is hardly accurate, either. They merely prefer the current situation to a return to provincial status within Serbia. And even if, as you wrongly state, no one disputes the current interim status (which you state while admitting that Serbia still believes that Kosovo should be reabsorbed into Serbia, and the Kosovar Albanians still believe that they should be independent), that does not mean that no one disputes Kosovo’s status de jure as a province of Serbia. And if all parties in the assembly accept the UN’s ban on independence, then there would be no need for UNMIK to keep blocking it, as you describe. If an unresolved political situation following a ceasefire in a war between two parties who still insist on opposite outcomes is not a dispute, perhaps you can use your oft-mentioned diplomatic experience to explain to me what the word ‘dispute’ means.
— Ford 03:21, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)
Take your points, Ford. I do mean that Kosovo is not disputed in the formal sense. There is a dispute (where is there not?) but when we are discussing (and defining) the Status of this piece of land, we should not say that it is disputed (which has a very different meaning). Kosovo is not a disputed territory in the way that the Kiril Islands (spelling??) are disputed by Japan and Russia, it is a small part of a larger State where part of the population (here a majority) seek independence. A single word does not spring to mind to describe this, so we shall have to resort to a longer-winded explanation - a province of Serbia, administered by the UN, where the majority ethnic-Albanian population seeks independence as part of a UN-sponsored process to determine Final Status. No one disputes that Kosovo is a province of Serbia, administered by the UN, (erm, except yourself!) but many people have different ideas about what that Final Status should be. The UN and all sides in Kosovo have worked very hard, and both K Serb and K Albanians have made many difficult compromises (not 'mere' preferences), to get to the current position where all sides agree on the process from here. We (and here I mean you) should not lightly ignore this weight of law and political complexity and blithely decide that Kosovo is not part of Serbia for the purposes of this dictionary - this is partisan and the route to further loss of life. (JD)
Your point on repeated attempts to use the Assembly as a means to declare independence. This does not imply that the Kosovo Albanian political parties in the Assembly accept anything other than the UN-sponsored process (including the compromise status quo). Whilst the parties support the process, they also need to maintain the support of the mass of Kosovo Albanians, and to compete with other parties for votes, and probably more importantly they are mindful of maintaining their current strong position in Final Status negotiations by reasserting their claim for independence, in full knowledge that using the Assembly in this manner is illegitimate and will be struck down by the SRSG. (JD)
Obviously I am beating my head against a wall here, but the very statement that Kosovo is a province of Serbia in any way but legally is biased and wholly inaccurate. During the Cold War, Ukraine and Belarus (generally then called Belorussia) were members of the United Nations. They were accorded recognition as sovereign entities. Mainland China, on the other hand, was not, and since it was made a member, Taiwan has been excluded. And yet: Ukraine and Belarus were not in any way independent during the Cold War, while Taiwan and China have been separate, functioning states since the end of the Chinese civil war. These are matters of fact.
That is why there exists the distinction between de jure and de facto. One describes a theoretical existence only in law — in this case, international law. The other describes reality. De jure, Kosovo is a province of Serbia. De facto, it is not. Since we are writing an encyclopedia of facts, not theories, we cannot call Kosovo a province of Serbia. It is not such a thing. We can say that it is a province of Serbia de jure. But if we simply say it is a province of Serbia, that implies that it is a province de facto.
American Heritage: a province is “a territory governed as an administrative or political unit of a country or empire”. We all (except Nikola, possibly) agree that Kosovo is not governed or administered by Serbia, that it is governed instead by condominium of a locally-elected administration and a UN-appointed administration. Kosovo’s actual, not theoretical, governance determines whether it is actually a province of Serbia. It is not. That is why my version states that Kosovo is a territory (bounded area of land) that is disputed. My version is more accurate than the present version. I realize that I have, with Kosovar’s recent silence, become Nikola’s chief antagonist; but it does not follow that the neutral position is halfway between us. I may condemn Nikola’s assertions here on the talk page, but my edits to the article itself have always been carefully factual and neutral. I would ask that other editors consider whether we should be filling the encyclopedia with fact or theory as they continue to favor theory in this article.
— Ford 00:25, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)
Documentation for what, Chris? That the article should be about fact, rather than theory? If you disagree, say this: “I, ChrisO, think that the article should ignore fact in favor of theory.” That Serbia no longer controls Kosovo, as the definition which I cited demands? If you disagree, say this: “I, ChrisO, think that Serbia actually controls Kosovo, administers it, governs it.” If you want to make either of those statements, and then want me to document the opposite, fine. But if you refuse to make these statements, then I must assume that you agree with me, that the article should be about fact and that in fact Serbia no longer controls Kosovo. And if we agree, I don’t know why you are demanding documentation from me.
As for 216.187.83.61’s objections and questions, they are easily dealt with. Didn’t I just say that I do not believe that Kosovo is a province of Serbia? That was the whole point. I am not trying to have it both ways. I am saying that it is not a province of Serbia. I think the definition of a province precludes the idea that a province can be ruled by one power and be a part of another. Kosovo stopped being a province of Serbia when Serbia lost control, during the war. I am not trying to prove that de facto is more important than de jure in law, since ‘jure’ means law (ablative). And I shouldn’t have to prove that de facto is more important than de jure in encyclopedia writing. What is Kosovo? I have already said, it is a territory, an area of land. Simple, factual, neutral. It is a territory under joint Kosovar-UN administration, with the UN having the final say. Easy. If American Heritage’s definition of province is not to your liking, provide another; but then we will just be having a war of dictionaries. As it is, you are just saying, “Everyone considers Kosovo to be a province of Serbia.” Not everyone does, but if they did it would not make it so. If everyone considered that the sun orbited the earth, it would not be any the truer. Of course, if you want to densely ignore the distinction between de facto and de jure, and insist that there cannot be a difference, then you are taking Nikola’s position, that Kosovo is a part of Serbia in every possible way. That position is ridiculous.
As I said, beating my head against a wall. I say: “X is true.” Someone demands: “But why don’t you say whether X is true or false?” I say: “Kosovo is Y.” Someone demands: “But why don’t you say what Kosovo is?”
— Ford 04:00, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
Why are you quoting the UN at me? I have already said that UN recognition or lack of it has to do with status de jure, not status de facto. The same goes for the G8. I was hoping that one of you might be able to offer some evidence as to why you think Kosovo is a province of Serbia de facto. That the UN Security Council, in which China and Russia can veto any statement they choose, or the G8, which needs Russia for consensus, would insist that secession is impermissible, or even insist that it has not taken place when it it has, is hardly proof of anything. For that matter, every state has an interest in the concept of territorial integrity. They have a conflict of interest; they are inherently biased. You’ve wasted a lot of breath countering a point that I did not make, and ignored the point I did. But discussing this isn’t going to work, obviously. Let’s just all congratulate ourselves on having won the argument — I know that is what you are doing — and drop it.
— Ford 13:53, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
Confusing the generic definition with the specific definition that applies to Kosovo? If Kosovo is a unique situation to which the definition does not apply, then we need a unique word. Are you saying that Kosovo is a special kind of province then — the kind of province that is not actually a part of the country to which it is supposed to belong? Your definition (and by the way, “Webster’s” is not the name of a specific dictionary; is this Merriam-Webster?) implies that the country in question controls the division or unit. Only de jure is Kosovo in any way a part of Serbia. De facto it is not a division or unit of Serbia. Or perhaps you are saying that Serbia is a special kind of state — the kind that has two completely independent governments.
— Ford 02:19, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
I have made my argument, you have made yours. We do not agree. We are not going to agree, clearly. We do not agree on the premises and there is no way that we will come to the same conclusion. I have left the text alone and see no further reason for you to pursue this argument, other than an attempt to make me look like I have no response. I am fully willing to admit that you will have a response to anything I say. But if I respond beyond this, you will respond again with something else that I don’t agree with. I am trying to extract myself from this argument. Please just accept that we do not agree and leave it at that.
— Ford 20:48, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
A long discussion, though unresolved. Whatever the semantics of what a 'province' is or is not, I think the key point is that we are discussing the Status of this piece of land. The only relevant definition of the Status of a piece of land is its legal status in international law (in this case, part of the sovereign state of Serbia and Montenegro), though we should note any disputes or unusual governmental structures (as we would do for Hong Kong or Taiwan). What we can't do is create some other kind of standard for describing the Status of a piece of land: Kosovo might be 'morally' independent or 'practically' not part of Serbia, but these are not relevant except in the wider description of how we got here and where we are going.
To say that Kosovo is 'a province in Southern Serbia' is correct but insufficient and inprecise, and therefore misleading and should be changed. Nor is Kosovo administered by the UN as a 'protectorate' (except in a lose and lazy journalistic sense) and this wording should go - Kosovo is a province of Serbia, administered by the UN as such (hence why the legal system is based on pre-1999 Yugoslav law, for which see references above). The situation many of us are trying to describe is complex but neutral: it does not prejudge Final Status or undermine important principles of self-determination and territorial integrity; it may appear to favour the Serb side only becuase Serbia happens (historically) to have been in control of Kosovo, but as I have stated many times this does not imply a moral claim over Kosovo. To take any other point of view would (in the real world) cause the current delicate balance to collapse, along with the cautious process of deciding Final Status, and could only lead to further fighting and loss of life. Sorry to put it so harshly - some of this diplomacy / international law rubbish (de jure) has practical benefit on the ground (de facto). Kosovo is a province of Serbia, administered by the UN, where a substantial majority favour formal independence. Please quote relevant documents from authoritative sources if you wish to state otherwise in this article.
This whole discussion is also slightly worrying - even when international law, the UN, the government of every UN member state, every major NGO and the bulk of the contributors to this article are saying one thing, there are still people here who want to claim another in order to correct what they see as bias in this article. (JD)
I remember hearing last year about a UNMIK report which claims that a large number of non-Kosovo Albanians (mostly from Albania, but some from FYROM too) entered the province in 1999 together with the returning Kosovo Albanian refugees, following the withdrawal of FRY forces. The report stated that approximately 200,000 non-Kosovo Albanians ended up in Kosovo in this fashion. Apparently a huge number of people entering Kosovo in 1999 claimed that their documents were confiscated / destroyed by FRY authorities, and since NATO forces had no means of verifying this, everybody who showed up at the border got in. The report states that these non-Kosovo Albanians settled in the cities, mostly in the apartments vacated by the fleeing Serbs (in Pristina alone, there were 40,000 Serbs living in the city in 1999; now there are less than 200, but there are no empty apartments). UNMIK eventually issued new documents to all Kosovo Albanians, which means that the non-Kosovo Albanians are now 'legalized' citizens of the province. I believe that this information should be incorporated in the 'Demographics' section of the main article, because the whole affair changed the population figures significantly. However, the issue is politically charged and without the report info as a reference I am not sure if I should proceed. Does anyone know anything more about this report, was the report released by UNMiK to the general public, and how would one find the report (and where?) to reference it for the article?
- - - -
If you cannot verify it (and allow the rest of us to verify it), you definitely should not include it in the article. If you find the UNMIK report and can give us a link, then the article can mention that fact if and only if it is attributed to UNMIK.
— Ford 13:44, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)
Yes, allegations exist, but for obvious reasons they cannot be proven. I have quoted several sources which cite the number in Talk:Demographic history of Kosovo. Nikola 10:13, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
For all here with an interest in Final Status process, worth reading. [38] For more general readership, the associated article in the UK's left-leaning Guardian newspaper is informative [39] (JD)
Serbia and Montenegro is the successor state of the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In international law it's little more than a name change. (JD)
My understanding is that it is widely accepted (outside of Kosovo that is) that Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia under UN administration. This administration is carried out by UNMIK.Osli73 10:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC) (osli73)
Everything, that has to do with Dardania, Moesia, Serbia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro, Yugoslavien, etc. subjects, put in the articel History of Kosovo. Otherwise I´ll take it as vandalismus. UN members are accepting UNMIK, and UNMIK administration is in Kosovo since the year 2000. Everything before that is History.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:18, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The UN, the EU, the Council of Europe and most other international organizations acknowledge that Kosovo, de-jure, is a province of the Republic Serbia called "Kosovo i Metohija" under UN administration. Since using the name Kosovo i Metohija carries such heavy political connotations, I suggest using "Kosovo" or "province of Kosovo."Osli73 10:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Its not importend for the World. --Hipi Zhdripi 02:34, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) Since Vilajet of Kosova (Osman Empire) .... :))--Hipi Zhdripi 05:31, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Everything, that has to do with Dardania, Moesia, Serbia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro, Yugoslavien, etc. subjects, put in the articel History of Kosovo. Otherwise I´ll take it as vandalismus. UN members are accepting UNMIK, and UNMIK administration is in Kosovo since the year 2000. Everything before that is History.
The name "Kosovo i Metohija" has to do with Milosevic´s time before the year 2000. The official name of " Kosovo " in serbian language, which is used in Kosovo as official language, is Kosovo. See UNMIK documents in sebian official language (don´t write here in Belgrad´s Pashaluk dialect ).
Please write the correct name. If you don`t do it, I´ll do. --Hipi Zhdripi 21:50, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the strict sense, the province of Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia, administered by the UN. This is widely accepted by all international institutions (e.g. UN, Council of Europe, European Union). Thus, de jure, the official name of Kosovo is still "Kosovo i Metohija." However, I realize that using this name has an important political implication. Best is probably to just use plain and simple "Kosovo" and "province of Kosovo" until a (more) permanent solution has been arrived at and ratified by the UN.Osli73 10:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
The province never had an official flag of its own. The Albanian flag is used by the Albanian-dominated administration and the vast majority of Kosovo Albanians. Kosovo's president, Ibrahim Rugova, has proposed an alternative flag of "Dardania" based on the design of the Albanian flag, but even within Kosovo it is little used. The Serb-inhabited area of north Kosovo uses only the flag of Serbia and Montenegro, which is formally the flag of the Serbia. (propaganda:whole of Serbia including Kosovo), although this usage is rejected by virtually all Kosovo Albanians. The United Nations administration in Kosovo intends to establish a new flag for the province, which will undoubtedly be very different from the two national communities' existing flags. The current flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina emerged from a similar process of national reconciliation.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:28, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Everybody,who doesn´t accept UNMIK , but is writing for kosovo, is just making propaganda. it has nothing to do with english language. With people like that, i don t need to have a discussion. If you are able to accept UNMIK, than we can have a discussion.
First of all : UNMIK ! What does it mean ? UNMIK stands for United Nation Mission in KOSOVO. In Kosovo ! There are no words for Serbian teritory or things like that. If you would be so nice, to have a look to the homepage from UNMIK, you can see yourself : there are no words for Kosovo in serbian territory . They are just writing " ...in the war-ravaged province of Kosovo... " Than you can read this :
That means, Kosovo doesn t have a status( it s war - ravaged ! ). It s just a province, administrated by UNMIK,and nothing else. It doesn t belong to any other state or country. UNMIK is there to help the kosovars to decide for their future.Every other offical reference, like offical serbian - or offical albanian reference, is just propaganda. From that point of knowledge, our discussion is, like I would say Serbia or Albania is a province in China. All articles with the subject " Kosovo ", which have to do with information or references BEFORE the 10. june 1999 belongs to the article " History of Kosovo ". In an other case, I ll delete it , because i took it like propaganda and not like neutral information for Wikipedia. People in this discussion, who don t accept UNMIK, aren t neutral. They are living in an own dreamworld, what has nothing to do with reallity and they are using the Wikipedia for their own propaganda.
If somebody think, that I m wrong, please show me. But please argue with informations from an OFFICIAL document, accepted from UNMIK and not with an dokument from national offical propaganda informations. We can have a disskussion with facts from UNMIK, not with the past. Wikipedia stands for knowledge and shouldn t have to become a place for national propaganda, no matter if it s serbian or albanian propaganda. In other case serbian and albanian people will ravage it, like they ve ravaged Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:55, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 1244
The Security Council,
Determined to resolve the grave humanitarian situation in Kosovo, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and to provide for the safe and free return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes,
Condemning all acts of violence against the Kosovo population as well as all terrorist acts by any party,
Raffirming the right of all refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in safety,
Welcoming the general principles on a political solution to the Kosovo crisis adopted on 6 May 1999 (S/1999/516, annex 1 to this resolution) and welcoming also the acceptance by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the principles set forth in points 1 to 9 of the paper presented in Belgrade on 2 June 1999 (S/1999/649, annex 2 to this resolution), and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia’s agreement to that paper,
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,
1. Decides that a political solution to the Kosovo crisis shall be based on the general principles in annex 1 and as further elaborated in the principles and other required elements in annex 2;
... [items 2-4 on the withdrawl of Serb forces, though some allowed to return later]
5. Decides on the deployment in Kosovo, under United Nations auspices, of international civil and security presences, with appropriate equipment and personnel as required, and welcomes the agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to such presences;
... [items 6-9 on goals of the international administration]
10. Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic selfgoverning institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo;
... [item 11 main responsibilties of the international presence, items 12- 21 various other bits and pieces]
So, UNSC 1244, the document by which the entire UN presence in Kosovo is justified makes it clear that the UN presence does not violate the 'sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' (now, international law, known as Serbia and Montenegro), describes what we call 'UNMIK' as 'the deployment in Kosovo of international and security presences' with the agreement of Yugoslavia, and allows for 'substantial autnomy' for Kosovo 'within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia'.
That clear enough for you Hipi? Official enough? Kosovo is a province of Serbia, part of Serbia and Montenegro (formerlly known as the FRY), under international civil administration. So let's have no more propaganda from your side, and no more threats to unilaterally edit this article. (JD)
The Map of SM has to be replace by the map of Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Map Municipalities of Kosovo has to be replace by correct.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The sectio "The Name" belongs to "History of Kosovo" . --Hipi Zhdripi 21:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
UNMIK has so far established a provisional assembly, provisional government and the office of provisional president, which are legislative and executive bodies under UNMIK's control. Control of security, justice and external affairs are still under full UNMIK control. The Assembly of Kosovo was elected in November 2001 and Ibrahim Rugova was elected as president in March 2002. The seat of the assembly, government and president is in Pristina. So far, the parliament has enacted and UNMIK approved a constitutional framework, customs code, and two criminal codes.
UNMIK is issuing travel documents which serve instead of passports in countries which are accepting to recognise them as such; UNMIK is also issuing identity cards and car plates, which again are valid only in countries which are accepting them as such. Kosovo's postal system is also usable only in countries which are accepting to recognise it as such (letters addressed to Kosovo only, or to Serbia and Montenegro have a chance of not arriving; the Universal Postal Union advises correspondents to use "Kosovo (UNMIK)" as the address [1] (http://www.upu.int/post_code/en/countries/KOS.pdf)).
UNMIK has also created a police force (the Kosovo Police Service) with employees from all ethnic communities (Albanian, Serbian, Roma, Bosniac, Roma, etc), and manages the province's railways and airline (Kosova Airlines). The airspace of the province is controlled by KFOR. UNMIK uses the United Nations flag.
The Constitutional Framework enacted by the Kosovo assembly (with UNMIK approval) has adopted a policy of affirmative action in the assembly to ensure that the province's minorities are properly represented. Out of 120 seats, 10 are reserved for Serbs and another 10 for non-Albanian minorities, while the remaining 100 seats are elected through direct voting.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(propaganda:Kosovo is still recognised internationally as a part of Serbia.) Its final status has not yet been resolved, though talks on the subject are planned for later in 2005, and considerable difficulties lie ahead in reconciling the apparently incompatible positions of the Serbian and Albanian sides. The Albanians reject Serbian sovereignty; although the fall of the Milosevic government has eased some of the political tensions between the two administrations, most Kosovo Albanians do not believe that the Serbian side will respect Albanian rights. On the other side, Serbia is adamantly opposed to the independence of Kosovo and for historical and religious reasons continues to see the province as the heartland of Serbian culture. The international community is reluctant to see Kosovo become independent, as its independence without Serbia's consent would violate international law (the principles of territorial integrity propaganda:and noninterference in internal affairs). It could also potentially provide a precedent for the secession of the Republika Srpska from Bosnia, which could re-ignite the war in that country. The most likely outcome is the indefinite continuation of the current situation (with EU institutions taking over the roles of UN and NATO, a process which can be observed in present-day Bosnia)--Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
UNMIK declared the euro to be official currency of the province in 2001 in the course of implementing a currency reform. This was undertaken to replace the previous widespread use of the Deutschmark, which had become de facto currency even before the 1999 war. However,propaganda: the Serbian dinar remains an official currency, though used principally by the Kosovo Serb enclaves; it is only used sporadically outside of them. Most trade is conducted using the euro, Kosovo's administration uses euros exclusively, and all commercial banks use the euro as the primary currency. Of other international currencies, the United States dollar and Swiss franc are the most widespread.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:45, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Main article: Demographic history of Kosovo
propaganda:Albanians comprise an almost 90% majority of the population of the province. Their percentage as a proportion of the province's population has increased steadily over time as a result of a high birth rate, propaganda:immigration from Albania and concentrion of Albanians from areas formerly under the Sandjak of Nish, southern Serbia. Most of the province's Albanian population became refugees during the war but quickly returned to their homes at its end. In the aftermath of the conflict, several hundred thousand non-Albanians (especially Serbs and Romas) fled the province to escape renewed intercommunal violence. propaganda:The non-Albanian population of Kosovo has continued to fall in recent years due to a combination of economic hardship and tension (and occasional violence) in ethnically mixed area.
According to the 2000 Living Standard Measurement Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo[40], Kosovo's total population is approximately 1,970,000 with the following ethnic proportions:
Article Kosovo History:
propaganda:
article Kosovo war OR Kosovo conflict
propaganda:
article Kosovo war OR Kosovo conflict No one on this page seems to notice how 200 000 serb refugees havn't returned kosovo?
Can some pls give me a complete lineage of koso leadership? Kosovo declares its independence from Yugoslavia in oct. 1991 with ibrahim rugo0va as leader from 24 May 1992 - 1 Feb 2000. then it goes: to Speaker of the Parliament 10 Dec 2001 - 4 Mar 2002 Nexhat Daci (b. 1944) LDK President 4 Mar 2002 - Ibrahim Rugova (s.a.) LDK:23 Feb 2005
are the UN administrators in conflict with Rugova??
I dont think i should add the succesion box without this info. Vital Component
I read: According to the 2000 Living Standard Measurement Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo[2], Kosovo's total population is approximately 1,970,000 with the following ethnic proportions:
Hipi Zhdripi, have you actually read this article? Under the flag section is explicitly stated that Kosovo doesn’t have its flag. Why are you then steadily putting UN flag? -- Obradović Goran (talk 21:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Nikola, please don t change it, because you don t have offical arguments. Kosovo, for shure, is under UNMIK - administration.
If you still want to write about Kosovo and Metohija, you can do that, but please write it on an other page and put it under " History of Kosovo ".
The articlename is Kosovo and that means, province under UNMIK administration. Everything else you want to write about , like Kosovo and Metohija or Republik of Kosova and their administration and government, please put in the article " History of Kosovo ". If you are a Wikipedian, you ll do that. If you are going on like that, you are just making propaganda and using this encyclopedia for your own intress and national propaganda, far away from the facts.--Hipi Zhdripi 15:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
212.124.169.39 : Nikola, is that you.--Hipi Zhdripi 17:20, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
One thing is, that every human beeing from balkan has. ( No matter, if he`s serbian, montenegrian,greece, albanian, romanian, hungarian, moldawian, bulgarian, kroatian, makedoniain (If I forgot anybody,please forgive me).) This one things is, that they all aren`t frightened to show her own,real face. No matter, if they loose or win. The best evidence for that, is the battle of Kosovo against Sultan.--Hipi Zhdripi 17:41, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I ve visit all pages with this subject. All informations, I ve found there, like for example for: popullation, territory etc., aren t correct. Pristina for example isn t a city in Serbia, it s a city in Kosovo. That s offical accepted by UN. Please edit that informations. I ve done some but better you ll do it, because I ve not so much time. I m working in albanish - and german Wikipedia, they need more help there. With friendly greetings,--Hipi Zhdripi 15:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
See: ... It was a part of Serbia, but since the Kosovo War it has been administered by the United Nations as a protectorate ... Everything else doesn`t work and is just propaganda.--Hipi Zhdripi 15:51, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
... Kosovo is a small and landlocked territory in the center of the Balkan Peninsula. Kosovo borders Macedonia (FYROM), Albania, Serbia and Montenegro. Its area is 10 877 sq. km. This is about one third of Belgium. Kosovo is at present divided into 30 municipalities... --Hipi Zhdripi 18:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC) [46]
Hipi Zdhripi, this what you’re doing is bordering vandalism. Your mouth is full of UNMIK, but you apparently haven’t read the only currently valid document about Kosovo, UN resolution 1244. In this document is clearly stated that Kosovo is a part of Serbia and Serbia and Montenegro, under a temporary UN administration.
In resolution 1244 is furthermore explicitly stated that territorial integrity of Serbia and Montenegro is intact - ergo if Kosovo was part of Serbia and Montenegro prior to 1999, then it is still part of Serbia and Montenegro. This is a categorical syllogism and if you don’t find a mistake in this line of conclusion, you will have to stop with your stubborn edit war, or you are a vandal. -- Obradović Goran (talk 18:38, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
It´s the same thing, like with UCK. Their point of view, they should put in the article " Republic of Kosovo", but not here. I`ve written an article with the subject "Kosovo and Metohija". Both subjects are one the wrong place here, they can be only in " History of Kosovo " In the article "Kosovo" is just place for present information, not for the past or future. No speculation, no propaganda, just facts . Nowhere you let a place for ACTUELL , CORRECT information from Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:02, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
shouldn't neutral (i.e. non-serb) pro-serb sources be listed under neutral?
see:According to resolution 1244, UNMIK is to:(PRESENT) --Hipi Zhdripi 21:14, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 1244
The Security Council,
Determined to resolve the grave humanitarian situation in Kosovo, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and to provide for the safe and free return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes,
Condemning all acts of violence against the Kosovo population as well as all terrorist acts by any party,
Raffirming the right of all refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in safety,
Welcoming the general principles on a political solution to the Kosovo crisis adopted on 6 May 1999 (S/1999/516, annex 1 to this resolution) and welcoming also the acceptance by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the principles set forth in points 1 to 9 of the paper presented in Belgrade on 2 June 1999 (S/1999/649, annex 2 to this resolution), and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia’s agreement to that paper,
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,
1. Decides that a political solution to the Kosovo crisis shall be based on the general principles in annex 1 and as further elaborated in the principles and other required elements in annex 2;
... [items 2-4 on the withdrawl of Serb forces, though some allowed to return later]
5. Decides on the deployment in Kosovo, under United Nations auspices, of international civil and security presences, with appropriate equipment and personnel as required, and welcomes the agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to such presences;
... [items 6-9 on goals of the international administration]
10. Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic selfgoverning institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo;
... [item 11 main responsibilties of the international presence, items 12- 21 various other bits and pieces]
So, UNSC 1244, the document by which the entire UN presence in Kosovo is justified makes it clear that the UN presence does not violate the 'sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' (now, international law, known as Serbia and Montenegro), describes what we call 'UNMIK' as 'the deployment in Kosovo of international and security presences' with the agreement of Yugoslavia, and allows for 'substantial autnomy' for Kosovo 'within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia'.
That clear enough for you Hipi? Official enough? Kosovo is a province of Serbia, part of Serbia and Montenegro (formerlly known as the FRY), under international civil administration. So let's have no more propaganda from your side, and no more threats to unilaterally edit this article. (JD)
Nikola, please can you explain to the other serbians, that things are moving!? They doesn`t understand why. I know, that`s not easy, because they all are coming from balkan. I m coming from balkan, I know that. This kind of " stoneheads " brought the war to the balkan. --Hipi Zhdripi 23:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Hipri Zhdripi, as you can see, I am ready to talk about everything, because I am not natonalist, and I do not like them. Facts are difrent category! Maybe you are Albanian natonalist, but you must respect those facts, just like EU, UN, CIA... --M. Pokrajac 18:13, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
You folks need to hammer out a common version of this article. The pages Kosovo i Metohija && Republic of Kosovo should be redirects to Kosovo. Kosovo is a province of Serbia and it is also under UN administration. I'd suggest you stay focused on facts and not seek to advance causes. — Davenbelle 01:30, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
First of all, I am sorry for not replying to any specific posts, but I have a rather difficult time following this conversation. The way I see it, Hipi Zhdripi wants every page in relation to Kosovo to be formed as to reflect the current situation of UNMIK's presenence. The rest of the involved want to state de jure situation. My proposal, not just regarding this article, but any article concerning Kosovo, is:
So, in a nutshell: include information about UNMIK, but respect the fact that Kosovo is not a sovereign nation run by UNMIK. What does everybody think of this? --Dejan Cabrilo 04:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Why make a decision now? It appears that the status of Kosov@ will change by the end of the year anyway. - User:Dardan
I have to say, the article is in a much better shape than it was six months or so ago, when we had very little even about the UN administration. Though the number of non-Balkan editors seems to have fallen radically, it would seem to me that we have a more neutral article than at any previous point. I'm not sure I agree with Dejan that UNMIK should be a separate article; in most cases we need to record (at least) three separate realities: what the situation was 1999 and how that is reflected today; what the situation on the ground is at present, as reflected by UNMIK; and elements of what the Kosovo Albanian majority would desire (e.g. a new flag). So, for administrational districts, we need to record the pre-1999 set up, the fact that these are operating this moment in some form in Serbia proper, and the UNMIK districts (and if there were parallel K-Alb districts we could record these). And some need to remember that making factual statements about the current situation (e.g. that Kosovo is a provice of Serbia under UN administration whose final status has yet to be determined) is not prejudging what that final status should be. Having seen plenty of Serbian vandalism of this article in the past, the main culprits now seem to be Albanian. No doubt this is because those people perceive bias: can they perhaps suggest a form of article or content which might be acceptable to them and which they think all the other parties would accept? (JD)
Some of the more recent arrivals to the discussion also need to go back and read the history: there was much debate and research about currencies for instance, and it was determined that both the Euro and the dinar are official currencies, but that they are used in varying ways in different locations - so there is no propaganda in this. (JD)
Can someone add id:Kosovo to this article? Thanks. Hayabusa future 07:53, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Commercial Appeal (Memphis) Circulation: 157,820 in a May 22, 2005 article used Wikipedia (no particular article cited) as the lead source in a Kosovo overview section.
lots of issues | leave me a message 14:34, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
This series of pages
has been protected for some time now. Any objections if I were to unprotect the top two and redirect them here? BrokenSegue 17:15, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I thought that the main strong point for this enciclopedia was its neutrality.
Reading the article, I could not beleive my eyes. The obvious albanian position in the article is outrageous, thus destroying any possible argument for neutrality that the enciclopedia might have. I am doing the Serbian Studies course in the University of Toronto, and I assume the neutrality of this institution. I have also documented myself in both sides of the 'issue' in question in order to understand the situation fully, and the reality is far from what we hear in the news.
Firstly, the province's final status has already been dictated by the UN. It is an autonomous province belonging to the government of Serbia and Montenegro.
Then, the article refers very ominously to the Albanians in the province. This is inevitable, for the Albanians have taken over great part of Kosovo, backed unconditionally by their government back in Albania.
The official language in Kosovo is Serbian. Albanian is used by the Albanians who have since 1990 conducted an efficient ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Albanian controlled areas. In fact, this cleansing is so efficient, Hitler would be proud, and he would be attached to the ALbanian people, for they were Nazi collaborators during the Second World War (and yes, immediately after the war they were and still are ultra-communist).
It is an attack on the freedom of expression that this enciclopedia seems to guarrantee, showing this article. It is inevitably a volatile issue, but there is really only one truth.
In Canada, and elsewhere in Western society, the news we receive is very polluted. We only hear what the news agencies want us to hear (that is why I watch more than only CNN, in order to balance my views).
The West in general has always been afraid of Eastern society. Russia and its allies have always been the Great Enemy, with or without Communism. This is evident from the bizarre need that the west has to remove Russia from its long standing allies in the east. This is evident from the urgent need to expand the EU to the borders of Russia, and to date, even with a democratic Russia, the NATO still refuses to invite it into its military alliance. More recently, during the Kosovo crisis, the NATO was quick to deploy its never before used military forces before the Russians had a chance to move in and secure the safety of the assailed Serbian population.
This episode is merely yet another expression of this inexplicable fear and aversion to eastern society. How else could one explain that to date the Holocaust of Serbs by Croatian Ustasi has been censored violently in the West? The Catholic, west-leaning, fascist croatian ustasi have not been appraised, but that brutal episode in Croatian history is not even mentioned in western history high school textbooks.
This article is just mimicking what Sky News tells us. For that reason, I strongly beleive it would be positive to allow two versions of this article, alongside each other, with no preference to either one, and both blocked for the time being. Or simply removing the article. Having this aversion to neutrality present is a contradiction to the essence of this enciclopedia. Either remove it altogether, or have two versions of the same article posted alongside each other.
Pro-Serb?!?! Now I'm speechless. What is pro-Serb about it?
(1) First of all, it Srbija on Serbian and Serbia on English not Serbija(you probably know that but are just typing it as such to spite him). I really don't see how that Serb soccer chant that is occassionaly spray painted on walls have anything to do with the mentality of Serbs as whole, that is a generalization. And even if it were to be taken literally, the same thing can be said of the Greater Albania idea.
.....
etc. etc. etc. (Deleted) JDancer 19:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
My nigtbor Dragan. I have caled him during the war. He cryad and told too my thet my two brothers was killed. I asked him, who was the killer. He told too my. I don t no but the killers was masked. Today I know the killer. I t was Dragan. And if I see him in Prishtina I sware I going too kill him and he know that. But and if I have a chance to go in Kralevo I am going too go and kill him. He is driving the care OPEL from my father. With my mony he have byed a Haus in Kralevo.
And you can trace back Albanian roots in Kosovo to Illyrians, for me the fact you lived there 2000 years ago means nothing, I suppose if Serbians moved back to the eastern slopes of the Carpathians, and that then they hae the right to start their own country? Or maybe explaoin then why the Serbian Republic in Bosnia isn't independent. Maybe the Jews should claim Egypt is theirs, because after all, they were slaves to the Egyptian people some 4000 years ago...
Every serb who have his hands with albaniens blood and is traing to comme in Kosovo is going to be death. I garanty you if I see Dragan in Kosovo I m going to kil him. You can says wat you wount that UCK ore sambodi else has done bad think bad my sister was not UCK. It was a normal citisens of Kosova like all ather peopel who are stil ill from serbien terror. The Kosovo citiesens is payeng the mendicen for this peopel. And they wasen t UCK.
Just stop talking please, you are brainwashed beyond belief. I suppose that the thousands of people forced out of Kosovo in March 2004 were terrorists? That what happened in Titoist Yugoslavia in Kosovo was against only "terrorist" Serbs?
And Maybe if they were not supporting and harbouring the UCK I would feel different, but if you're helping a terrorist you are a terorist, its as simple as that. And get that UCK brainwashing garbage out of your head, your so one sided its unbelievable.
Wikipedia is not a place to be making threats against the lives of people.
At first Dragan is not a humane, he is a Serbe minoryt terrorist. We are talkink not for peopel but for another kinde of speci. No army kill pregnant wommen. And you are talkin to me somthing abuot sebien minorty who is working in UNMIK. We are not stupied we know who has don wat. Evrey serb who was a normal citisen of Kosova is a normal citisen of Kosova. Every terrorist from Kosova is going to paye for that what he have don. If you thing that we shuld let the free hand for the terrorist like Dragan than I goig to thing that you have blood in your hand and you are a fried for your life. But, thate is normal. Befor you kill sambody you most think a bout the konsekuncis.
I don't care about Dragan, I'm just saying to bring your little bluffs on to Wikipedia, we don't care if you hate Dragan, or if he killed some one, I dont't care, I want to make a balanced neutral article, not a list of Serbians that are on a black list.
Which way are going to go the Kosovars let they disedie abut that. They have they oven territory, they oven cultur and they wohnt to be indentpendent. Whats wrong in that? They dont whont to be a koloni. The Serb minorty (not the terrorists) are in Kosovas parlament. The serb languige ist officel languige in ther area. Ofcaurse in the time of koloni they hav much more power but every kolinony time have one day The End. Game Over. Thats life.
Serbians have no power in the Kosovo Parliament, and the Kosovar will to keep the Serbian minority in Kosovo was shown in March 2004, if you do get your own country, it will be a country that thrives off of drugs and sex trade, with more than 50% of the people below the poverty line. You arn't ready for your own country, even if you had ANY right to take it away from the Serbian people.
When you decicide to write something intelligent I will read it, until then good-bye.
Do we need it, still? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 09:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
It was my understanding, when having this explained to me whilst we mournfully watched flocks of black birds hovering around mass graves, (so emotion may have over-ridden accuracy!) that the "black birds" referred to in the name were in fact black crows rather than the bird actually named precisely blackbird in English. Does anybody know for sure?
Someone thought that it would be funny to add a million of Albanians on the Demographics to Kosovo and deduct a hundred thousand Serbs and also several other people :))) idiotish vandalism reverted. HolyRomanEmperor 23:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
According to "Večernje Novosti", a daily newspaper in Serbia from November 27, 2005, the authorities of Kosovo have adopted the official flag of Kosovo. It is the "Dardania" flag proposed by Ibrahim Rugova several years ago. I took the liberty to upload this flag from my personal flag collection in my computer. PANONIAN (talk) 20:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This is really simple. Once the Kosovo Assembly (as an internationally recognized body) accepts the new flag, it will be official. So, just wait for official sources to come thru, and if it happens, we will alter the article. --dcabrilo 07:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
9.1.1 The Assembly is the highest representative and legislative Provisional Institution of Self-Government of Kosovo.
The Provisional Insitutions have only those rights given them by UNMIK. This does not include the power to adopt a flag. (JD)
I've just made edits to the articles better to reflect the standard international terminology used when referring to Serbia or to Serbia and Montengro. The article had made too much use of Serbia and Montengro where in fact Serbia alone is often the relevant subject. The State Union being particularly weak, and lacking any central government, it is necessary to refer to the government of Serbia or of Montengro, or simply to Serbia and Montengro. In some cases using Serbia and Montenegro implies a Montenegrin position on Kosovo indentical to that of Serbia, which is not necessarily the case. Only where we are using formal titles, or referring to 'Serbia and Montenegro' as a subject in international law should the term be used. Nor is the term 'Serbo-Montengrin Federation' ever used.
I've also edited the use of the term Metohija for correct transliteration into English. This is a topic which has been discussed before. As is clear from the Cyrillic, there is a j in Metohija. IF we were to Anglicise the term we might call it Metohia (as we did for Yugoslavia), but this is not a term which is commonly Anglicised. Metohia was once in use but is now archaic. Please see [61] and [62] for the correct usage. I am unable to edit the use of Metohia in the side panel - perhaps someone could oblige?
I've also uploaded and linked a new map image which identifies the administrative line between Kosovo and Serbia proper not as an international border but as an internal boundary as that between Vojvodina and Serbia proper. UNMIK practice is to refer to this line as a 'boundary'; it is not an international border in law. Technically we should have a separate sort of line for the between Serbia and Montenegro.
On a separate note, as a former diplomat in the region, it is my view that this article is approaching a good standard of neutrality. Perhaps in doing so it lacks some thorough treatment of recent history and present politics, but this is probably an acceptable compromise. (JD)
Having reviewed the regional/country pages of various other localities, I can only conclude that this article is an embarrassment. What was all this rubbish about blackbirds and obscure Ottoman geographical terms?! That sort of stuff is fine for a sub-page if you can work up enough material, but is irrelvant and distracting for an article which should aspire to be a source of reference. I've gone through the article and weeded out all such rubbish from both sides, leaving in only that which is relevant for an international reader. This leaves the article much shorter but much clearer. We still need a short para on 20th C history and the Kosovo War, a through redrafting of the politics section, far more detail on economics and a clearer review of the powers of UNMIK, the process of creating provisional institutions, the parallel Serb adminstrative efforts (there are now two Pristina Universities!), the economics of the UNMIK period and a more solid review of the Final Status process.
There is no reason to revert any the material I've removed. Nor is this an opportunity for either side to throw in a whole load of biased rubbish. Any additions along the lines mentioned above are welcome, as long as these remain balanced and authoritative. And can the guys who've been using this space to carry out a personal argument irrelevant to Wikipedia kindly get lost! Use your energies elsewhere. JDancer 19:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Even this user is blocked ([63]), I can't be sure if the link which he added is valid. It is in Italian and I would ask somone to check it. The same link is added twice with different explanations (the first one for Islamic, the second one for Orthodox monuments: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The source quoted for the demographics does not support the edits by the unsigned editor regarding large shifts in population. Also, stating that 50% of an ethnic group's population is post-1998 (or pick any other date) is irrelevant. I fear that it was placed to advance a point of view of the legitimacy of the Albanian majority; however, one may say with certainty that 99% of Germany's population of ethnic Germans is post-1850 (barring any 156 year old people), or 50% of same population being post-1930 or whenever, does not imply some illegitimacy of ethnic Germans to be in Germany. Similarly, here. Carlossuarez46 01:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I won't be the one to deliver it, considering that I'm not even a registered user, but this article is HEAVILY BIASED against Serbs and is in DESPERATE need of a NPOV. As long as Kosovo is under territorial agreement with Serbia and Montenegro, the foremost official language will be Serbian, REGARDLESS of the Albanian majority. The ethnic population distibution should seriously be re-evaluated (sources??) and other pointless additions , including a flag not recognized by either UNMIK or The government of Serbia and Montenegro should be removed. This image was added on purpose, simply to draw some sort of connection between Kosovo and albania. These happen to be just some of the perplexities noticed while skimming through the article without any real emphasis on my part. I am sure that it is plagued with even more advocative misinformation, and so ask a NPOV to be put into place as soon as possible.
I totally agree! Who ever put english as an official language? It's only serbian and albanian! Their is no official flag of Kosovo and it should therefor be removed. So I suggest that somebody remove the flag or I will. Litany 20:45, 31 January 2006
This entry wilfully exaggerates the victimisation of Serbs. It talks of 100s of thousands where there were thousands. It ignores the political reality on the ground. It fails to put into perspective the international ostrasisation of Serbia as the main (though not only) perpetrator of crimes against humanity and the impact this has on the approach to Kosovo/a. This entry tends to whitewash crimes committed by Serbs and is reminicent of the worst aspects of recent Serbian history. Of course, it would be wrong to judge Serbs by the 'facts' inserted by extremist (?), ingoramuses (?).Politis 10:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
These paragraphs should be included within the article on the history of Kosovo. More importance is yielded to the battles rather than country's geography.--Pjetër Bogdani III 23:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that, “Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë / Kosova, Serbian: KOSOVO is a province of Serbia. “ Then, beside the map on the right the nation is called Serbia and Montenegro and it is stated that there are four proivinces in the nation: Serbia, Kosovo and Metohia, Vojvodina, and Montenegro.
I suggest that someone was rather sloppy with their wording in the paragraph. Kosovo is certainly not a province of Serbia. Like Serbia, Kosovo is currently a province of the nation of Serbia and Montenegro.
I find it very unfair the way this discussion is treating serbs. I believe if kosovo becomes independant (or joins albania) that, the serb republic (RS) in Bosnia has that very same right to split away. Also i believe since the EU is splitting kosovo away from serbia than the RS should be offered for compensation. - Nick
Nothing can remain NVOP on this site! The propaganda must stop! - L
1)..."and Albanians are direct descendants of Illyrians which means that Albanians are one of the oldest inhabitants in Illyrian Peninsula"... 2)"In relative terms, the Slavs, notably the Serbs, were latecomers to the region. They came to the territories of roughly modern-day Kosovo in the 6th and 7th centuries. They come as a pagan and unruly population, with no education and permanent settling"....... 3)"Their penetration into Illyrian Peninsula meant great destruction and masacres. That is why the period of some centuries during this time is in complete darkness"
1)-there are no evidences whatsoever that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians. See Origin of Albanians. There are no linguistical similarities between the two languages nor names, customs etc that could lead us towards that conclusion. Most scholars would stay neutral on this matter, because it's a matter of dispute, lacking ANY kind of evidences. "Illyrian peninsula"...????....excuse me??????you don't seriously mean Balkans by this do you????? 2)-Serbs have setlled this area led by their tribal leader, the Unknown Archont, together with the Croat tribes. Had they been unruly they wouldn't have listened to their leader when he took them towards the south, and secondly, they respected Emperor Heraclius, which shows a certain level of cultural avareness. They have been given the territories of Dalmatia, Moesia etc to settle, taking that those areas were EMPTY due to constant barbaric raids by the Avars, Gepidae, Goths, Sarmatians and their clashes with the Greeks. Serbs have had their own dinasties ever since they settled in the Balkans (name ONE Albanian dinasty before 15th century!!!). They have embrassed Christianity and Greek alphabet right away, before it evolved into Cyrlic alphabet a few centuries later. Coastal Serbs have been latinised (alphabet and religion-wise). ʙ 3)-Serbs were invited to colonize the Balkans by Heraclius, and in return pledged alligeance to Byzantium, giving its best male soldiers to the Empire. They also got free land and fields, houses and all the rights civilized Byzantines had enjoyed, beeing protected by the law just like any other member of the society. Bulgars, on the other hand, have settled a bit later and were in constant warfare with Byzantium during the following centuries. De Administrando Imperio offers an explanation to many troublesome questions. Demografic history of Kosovo shows the participation of the Albanians in the overall population througout centuries. Albanians have not showed in Kosovo until the great exodus of the Serbs in 1690, when they have arrived with the Turks, colonizing Serbian property and land. This continued througout centuries, up until the late 19th century, when they became a majority in the province, but have not stopped their collonization until 1999. There are no evidences that Albanians have always lived in Kosovo, while Serbian evidences are available for anyone to check them, in hundreds of monasteries, inhabited places, toponyms and the name itself- Kosovo.
There are a couple more quotes that I find redicilous>>>>>>
1)"Other migrations of Orthodox people (Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek) from Kosovo continued throughout the 18th century"- Albanians have converted to Islam 3 centuries earlier, especially those who lived in Kosovo at that time, because that was the way to severe cultural ties with the Serbs. There isn't any Albanian Orthodox monasteries in Kosovo, because there has never been such a thing as Orthodox Albanians in Kosovo, only Muslims who settled after the Turkish conquest and Serbian exodus to the north.
2)"Kosovo was taken by the Austrian forces during the Great War of 1683 - 1699 with the great help of 5000 Albanians and their leader Archibishop Pjetër Bogdani, while the Serbian Patriarch of Peja escaped into Serbia without any fight at all"- had the Serbs not helped the Austrians to penetrate into Serbia proper in the first place, how the hell would they have reached Kosovo?????Austrians had to pass some 400 km through Serbia to reach Kosovo and Macedonia!!!There have been huge celebrations in all major Serbian cities when the Austrians poured in, because they have been treated as Christian liberators, unlike Albanians who feared them and have eventually forced them out together with the Turks!!!! Does the person who wrote this article know ANY geography???????
3)"In 1912, Albania declared independence from the Ottoman Empire"- this event happened AFTER the Serbs have LIBERATED this land from Turkey
4)"Serbian genocide against Albanians continued after the Second World War, when three hundred thousand Albanians were expelled to Turkey"- so how than do you explain the huge rise in Albanian population of Kosovo after the war????Check again Demografic History of Kosovo!!! Kosovo was practicly given to you by Tito after you have massacred and expelled 400,000 Serbs during Fashist Albania!!!!
I protected the page following an edit war. Please try to get consensus here. David.Monniaux 20:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
-This article should be removed from Wikipedia, from one of the most visited site on internet. This article is clearly anti-Serb article. On the beginning it says that Serbs attempted to purge the region of ethnic Albanians under the auspices of "ethnic cleansing". This is funny.. I can't beleive that someone can write this and noone removes this. Just look:
Ethnic cleansic??? There is no need to comment..
-It is really anoying that word Kosova is in use for Kosovo. I will not write about meaning of word Kosovo, there is already somewhere something about it. I will just say that it's not compatable to use word Kosova instead of Kosovo. Only this two reasons are enough: 1. "Kosovo i Metohija" is official name for that region. 2. This is encyclopedia on English, and on english Kosovo is... Kosovo!
-In the 'history of Kosovo' Dardans are indetificated with Albanians. I am very interested in archeology, so really there is no any clue that those two races are the same. That is because dardHa means a pear? And Dardanija than means Land of Pears?? Come on.. Dar means Gift on Serbian, Dan means Day on Serbia. So, can Serbians call themselfes Dardans?
-Not only as a modern nation, Serbs are described here as wild, blood-thirsty, as vandals, murders trough whole history.
Quote: Their penetration into Illyrian Peninsula meant great destruction and masacres. That is why the period of some centuries during this time is in complete darkness Yes... That is why Albanians now can not give us clue that thay ar Illyrians or Dardans.
BTW: Milos Obilic = Milos Kopili??? I can't beleive... If you find any source that can aprove this, than you can do with me whatever you like.
Trough whole article is claimed that Serbs killed Albanians whole history. How come that there is than so much Albanians on Kosovo and Serbia. For more than 10 centuries.. I think Albanians would dissapear untill today ?
Every single word in this article is wrong. You can't know how I feel while I'm reading this. I feel helpless. Where is the source for such hate?? If you can think with your head, you will understand that this article is full of nationalism, lies, hate and subjective opinion.
I would be for removing this article, even if Serbs created it against Albanians. I respect wikipedia, I am using it for a long time and I truly hope that you will not allow that your site be a way that one nation use you as a propaganda against other.
Peace .....M.N.
Many of you don't realize how strong and powerful are Albanians in imposing their opinion. Not many of the readers know that Serbia has no lobbyists in the USA (i don't know the numbers for european countries, but even in them, albanian lobbyists outnumber serbian ones with a big difference). That's why many of us percieve albanian view of the things that are going on in the Balkans, particularly in the Kosovo.
Now, I have something to say about this page which is just ridiculous. There are so many lies, and most of them are in the long explanation under the title NPOV, but I found some more.
lie)In the aftermath of the conflict some one thousand non-Albanians, particularly Serbs and Roma either followed Serb soldiers as they withdrew explanation) Way more than 1000 Serbs became refugees, and they didn't withdrew with the soldiers. Of Pristina's 40,000 Serbian population, only 400 are left is what is said in the article by Robert Fisk, writen on november '99, so a lot more left Kosovo since then (full article is on the page http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/smurd.htm) So that gives us the number of 39600 that escaped only from Pristina.
I just want to repeat one thing from NPOV article. Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians. Dalmatians can claim that they are their descendants, but not albanians. And the part of todays Serbia and Albania had been inhabited with so many different tribes and nations that it is impossible to look for your ancestors in just one of the tribes.
Some things that are said, like Serbs come as a pagan and unruly population, with no education and permanent settling. Their penetration into Illyrian Peninsula meant great destruction and masacres. That is why the period of some centuries during this time is in complete darkness. Kosovo was ruled by the Bulgarians from the 850s until 1014. This is just insulting and not true. We don't need new Hitlers in the Balkans, why such a hate? And even if your article was true this could be writen in another way, but unfortunalely for you, it is both insulting and a lie.
One thing that you, Albaninans, don't want to understand is that Serbia was founded in Kosovo. And in one period it hold almost all of its current territories (of course Kosovo) plus Albania, Macedonia, big parts of Greece... But, Serbs are not asking to establish serbian as a main language in these regions, that was a part of history. The first and the only time Kosovo partially belonged to Albania was when Ottoman Empire occupied Serbia. But that's it. The first settlements in Kosovo were Serbian settlements. And of course when the Turks left, Kosovo again belonged to Serbia.
contact me in case of any misunderstandings.
and I also want to apologize for vandalizing the page, because I'm new to Wikipedia, and I didn't understand how things work here. And the reason for vandalizing was the anger that came out while I was reading this complete junk of an article writen probably by a member of KLA (UCK)or albanian terrorists. -- User:Gianni ita 23:16, 26 February 2006
ChrisO what are you talking about? The only thing I did on the article is delete some parts that awoke anger in me because they were a complete bs. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gianni ita (talk • contribs)
Ok, but did I lie anywhere? I got very insulted when the Albanian who wrote this still official article said that when Serbs came to Kosovo became the period of total darkness. First of all, Serbs were there before Albanians, and the second thing is that, you can't hate a nation and write an official article about a region that belongs to that nation.
If possible, could an administrator please fix the infobox's layout? Right now the table cell that contains the map of Kosovo doesn't span any columns, so it expans the left column too much while squishing the right column. It's a little frustrating to read the infobox with one word per line. Please change this line:
| align=center | [[Image:Kosovmapofmunicipalities2.GIF]]
To this:
| colspan="2" align=center | [[Image:Kosovmapofmunicipalities2.GIF]]
Thanks.
– Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 05:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The Serb: "Ethnic Albanians comprise almost 90% of the population of the province. In the aftermath of the conflict some one thousand non-Albanians, particularly Serbs and Roma either followed Serb soldiers as they withdrew, were forcibly expelled by the Albanian majority or fled the province to escape perceived threats of revenge by Albanians (note:Most of Kosovo Serbs were in the ruling administration of Milosevic's dictatorship in Kosovo). The non-Albanian population of Kosovo has continued to fall since the arrival of NATO and the UN as a result of violence, perceived intimidation, and economic hardship. Many still live in communal camps in Serbia or Macedonia cared for by international relief agencies. However, there have been many attempts by Kosovo's government to resettle Non-Albanians in the region which have largely been successful, including the resettlement of well over one thousand Serbians and Roma from 2004 - 2005. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.
Another Serb: I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT THESE PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH!!!!!!!YOU CANNOT PUBLISH THIS LANGUAGE OF HATRED IN AN RESPECTABLE MEDIA SUCH AS WIKIPEDIA!!!!!MOST OF THE OTHER CASES YOU REACT INSTANTLY- BUT THIS THING HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WEEKS IF NOT LONGER!!!!YOU CANNOT PRESENT SERBIAN NATION AS A VARVARIC, GENOCIDAL AND SAVAGE, NO NATION IS LIKE THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE, ESCPECIALLY THE NATION THAT HAS SUCH A RICHFULL CULTURE AND HISTORIC TIES TO EUROPE!!!!!BY DOING NOTHING YOU ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISPUTE!!!!!I BEG YOU GUYS WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE TO LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERNET, FIND SOME SOURCES YOU CONSIDER VALID AND APPROPRIATE AND REWRITE THIS ARTICLE!!!NOT THE SERBIAN WAY, NOT THE ALBANIAN WAY, BUT THE WAY THAT HAS EVIDENTIAL, SCIENTIFIC AND HISTORICAL SUPPORT! THIS WAR ONLINE HAS TO STOP! 250,000 SERBS ARE AFRAID TO GO BACK TO KOSOVO THAT THEY HAVE ABANDONED FOLLOWING ETHNIC CLEANSING! YOU CANNOT PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND CANNOT DENIE THAT ONLY 3% HAVE RETURNED SINCE 1999!!! 3 %!!!!!!!! I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING HERE, I'VE BEEN VISITING THIS SITE FOR A YEAR NOW BUT NOW I'M DEEPLY DISSAPOINTED!!!THIS INTERNET-VIOLENCE IS SILENTLY APPROVED BY THOSE WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE AND I FIND IT SHOCKING, DISTURBING AND RASIST IN 21ST CENTURY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.106.169.47 (talk • contribs)
The Albanian: -I can't believe how Serbs hate the truth. -There are 65,000 Kosovar Serb refugees in Serbia, not 250,000!!! Stop the Milosevic-type propaganda. Go read www.esiweb.org a reputable think tank, look for their report Laune Principle and you will learn about the number of Serbs. -Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that. Unless Serbian chouvinists decide that Albanians are not. But historical, sociological and anthopological studies since 18th century have been proving this. And not Albanian, but western sources only. Serbs don't like it because it doesn't suit them politically. -Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. Serbia was founded in Raska not in Kosovo! -Jefferson has talked about generational sovereignty. He has said sovereignty belongs to the living people. 90% of Kosovars want Kosovo to become a state, you cannot stop it. You can cry and beg, but no, you cannot stop it. -Albanian Lobbying??? Demonizing Albanians as capable of world conspiracy??? This reminds me of Hitler and the Jewish people??? Stop it! That is inciting hatred and violence. -Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak! Yes it was invaded! It's people were not asked whether they wanted to join Serbia. Were they asked, Kosovo would have been part of Albania today and Albania and Serbia would have been allies. Today, we have to live the conflict just because of the big unjustice of 1912. -And yes, Serbia has committed crimes! It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo. Peace, let Kosovo breathe, Stop Serb Chouvenistic Propaganda! We've had enough of it for a hundred years. Wikipedia should be placeo of knowledge not of propaganda! Stop the Serb information terrorism!
The Serb:
You poor ignorant troll. lets get one thing straight. We Serbs, we have no reason to lie. How DARE you presume to teach us our own history??? Let me tell you this, the Illyrians were the indiginous people of the balkans until they were absorbed into the Serbs (over a period of time, naturally) and have no link whatsoever with the albanians. What you claim to be true, is Austrian propaganda dating back to the 19th century, since they saw it somehow profitable to arm the enemies of Serbdom. Serb chauvanists? How about the half of the world that is normal? Serbia founded in Raska not Kosovo? Again, whos history is it? Yes!!! albanian lobbying!! good thing you mentioned that. the leader of Kosovo Serbs, Archbishop Artemije goes to Washington DC to petition his case against independance and who is he recieved by? an unknown beaurocrat assigned to take the bishop on a tour nothing more. why is that? because Bishop Artemije is not a drug dealer nor is he a pimp. hashim thaci goes to washington and he gets a reeption at the white house and the secretary of state is there. How dare you compare us to hitler when the albanians, bosnians and croatians were marching with him?!?!?!?
Kosovo invaded? LIBERATED!!! invasion came in 1998 by the KLA. Serbia committed crimes? and the kla were angels? when pigs fly!! albanians hate truth..thats what you have shown me now....and anyone with an intellectual capacity above that of a turnip will agree...ohh one more thing, keep talking about Serbian hate crimes and we'll give you something to really complain about.
The Albanian:
Exactly! You just prove my point. We shouldn't compare you to Hitler!? Hitler is the symbol of violence incited on false claims. That is exactly what Serbia did and what you are calling for. Kosovo was never liberated until 1999. We had all kinds of invasions since ancient times: Roman, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Ottoman and Again Serbian, German, Bulgarian, Italian. The first time that the people of Kosovo control their territory is since 1999, albeit with UN supervision. Your Artemije should go to prison like Abu Hamsa in England. In Kosovo we have a law (UNMIK Regulation 2000/04) which comdemnes inciting of ethnic, religious hatred to 5 years of prison. Did you see what he was saying there??? I think he could as well belong to a mental hospital. That guy has nothing to do with God, that's for sure. 'People of God' as religious people are called, do not call for war and ethnic hatred. My governmnet, out of my taxes has paid for what the rioters did in 2004, when is your government going to pay for my house burned down by your military in 1999? And yes, the KLA committed crimes, but not the structure. It was some individuals. The Hague has just acquitted Fatmir Limaj, who was considered a high officer of the Liberation Army. Ramush Haradinaj will most likely be acquitted to. Only one KLA person has been charged, and he was a prison guard. You threaten me? Do you have any idea what the KLA would have done to your army had they not revenged by killing civilians? And don't forget, we didn't touch Belgrade, don't exclude that in a possible future attack. And I cannot tell you anything else, apart from Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you! Hmmmm... Ah OK, I would agree to that, I like the Republic of Kosovo to treat equally all foreigners. Even those who have ocupied us in the past like Turks and Serbs, Bulgarians or Germans)
Peace!
The Serb:You are so full of lies its simply amazes me. If you actually think anyone is going to believe your insane claims and ravings, ie, people of Kosovo, the righteous KLA, you've got another thing comming. Where is the proof, that albanians have been living in Kosovo for 3 millenia? WHERE? Peace will only be be achieved when Kosovo is returned to who it belongs to. And dont try to fool me saying the new government has payed to repair the damage of 2004. What do you think, im insasne?!!?!!? I've seen the churches and monasteries, almosts a 1000 years old. Burnt to the ground. I've seen the destroyed homese. I've seen the desecrated graves. Personally i dont giva a damn whether or not you are serbian albanian, turkish or german, but what the albanians are doing is evil. THEY are the ones carrying out hitlers work. and about me visiting Kosovo. wont happen unless its with an AK in my hand. You go ahead having your delusions of grandeur. one day you'll wake up and find out you were lying in a pile of horse manure.
The third party:Gentlemen. I hope you do realise that you are making a laughing stock of both Albanians and Serbs with this discussion? I can assure you, many neutral editors patrol around here, many having high standards concerning verifiability as well as maintaining NPOV.
The Albanian: These Serbs seem never to be able to come to senses. It's the 21st century! You cannot use guns anymore. If Kosovo belongs to Serbia then Belgrade and the north of Serbia belongs to Hungary and the US belongs to the indians... Kosovo belongs to the people who live there. Stop threatening! If Serbia wants a war, it will not have it unless it attacks. If it attacks, then this time it will be all against all! And we'll see where we get. Yes the Government of Kosovo paid some 7 million Euros out of the taxpayer's money to rebuild some 400 houses damaged by the rioters in 2004. The rioters were not incited by the government, it was the contrary. The Government of Kosovo has paid another 5 million for the religious heritage and has organized a donnors conference where another 10 million were gathered. This is unique in the Balkans! Kosovo, the victim for so long, has been the boldest and has claimed responsibility! The ball is on your field now, chetnicks! Let's see how you respond. Your government has killed 12,000 people, has burned down some 120,000 (70% of private property), and has destroyed the Kosovo economy. I'm sure you'll pay for it, sooner or later. There are international legal mechanisms, that Kosovo will make use of. Like Bosnia, you will have to pay for what your government did, with large public support. If you come to Kosovo with your kalashnikov, our police will try to dissarm you, if they can't, they will send you to hell.
The Serb: I said what I said. I'm not proud of my words, but I can choose no other. Also know this: the issue cannot be resolved with words. To the third party gentleman: thank you for your input.
Saying that the land belongs to the people who live there is really stupid. Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization. In every state there is a part of the country where lives more ethinic different people than the "main" nation. So, on the world it should be 1000000 states? ;) We are not living in stone age, don't forget.
We should not argue about Kosovo independence here. Your(Mine) opinion about situation on Kosovo should not be placed here. Also, wikipedia should not be used to achieve political goals, should not be used for writing farytailes (Dardania¹), for lies giving. So, before you delete this article, better for all.
Article should not be written in Albanian point of view, neither in Serbian..
Just a history as it was. Ancient people, Slavs, Serbian country, Turks, Modern Kosovo.
Albanians should be mentioned only in Modern Kosovo. I don't care if Kosovo becomes new state, but history can not be changed (I suppose). In this article Albanians are mentioned trough whole article. You can't realize how frustrating that is..
PS: Quote: -Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that. Unless Serbian chouvinists decide that Albanians are not. But historical, sociological and anthopological studies since 18th century have been proving this. And not Albanian, but western sources only. Serbs don't like it because it doesn't suit them politically. -Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. Serbia was founded in Raska not in Kosovo!
Few months ago, for the first time in my life I heard that Albanians are descendents of Illyrians. As I said before, I am really interested in archeology and what I know (maybe history can be changed, really) there is no Illyrian descendents nowadays. I don't say that Albanians are not Illyrians because I am afraid that you can claim territory of Kosovo because of your ancient history. That is absurde anyway. It is funny to create farytail about ancient roots on Balkan, and to use that to demand a land... Why don't you give us arcehological clues that you really have connections with Illryians. Again, I don't care how you call yourself but it is reeeeally stupid to claim the territory because of fake ancient roots.
If it is possible few of us should write article and the best article should be putted as a main. ? M.N
"Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization" - lol.. What I wanted to say is 3000 thousand years, before (bc actually) was created something called civilization. Mine mistake.... Everything else is the more-less the same thing I said... About voiting.. I thought, few of us create article, and the most neutral to be chosen. (I am saying this because, two sides will create articles, and again there will be nationalism from both side.)
Make the most simple article about the region, totaly neutral, AND THEN lock it untill discussion is ended. It's not fair this way, you locked pro-albanian version. This is not what Wikipedia should be.
where can I start to discuss and oppose Shqiptar propaganda? here it seems a bit too chaotic....--TheFEARgod 15:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe here: Serbian-Albanian Conflict, to analyse the roots of Albanian aggressive behaviour towards Serbs.--TheFEARgod 15:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
(Giani I think it makes sense to comment on your comments on your text. I hope you agree. The Albanian)
Quote : Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak.
Truth: Well, Kosovo belonged to Serbia before the Turks came, so large parts of today's Serbia together with Kosovo was liberated, not invaded. Even some parts of northern Albania belonged to Serbia before the Turks occupied Serbia including the city of Shkoder (Skadar).
The real truth: Kosovo was absolutely invaded as the majority of the people to some 80% were ethnic Albanians. Albanian nationalism had not reached the masses. Kosovo was not Serbian. Serbian nationalism emerged in 19the century. Serbian nationalists used Kosovo in order to gain mass support. This is a case that the political science knows as "ethno-symbolism." While Serbian nationalism was a reaction to it's northern borders, Albanian nationalism was a reaction to the Greek and Serb nationalism and thus was relatively late. When Serbia attacked, Albanians were unprepared to gather mass support. Serbia and Greece were much strongoer. The four Albanian Vilayets (Ottoman Autonomous Regions), where Albanians made the absolute majority had some 94,000 square kilometres. Albania is today 28,000 and Kosovo 11,000. Albanians make the majority in some 8,000 more in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia bringing it all to some 47,000, slightly over half of what they had under control. Vast regions were ethnically cleansed in XIXthe century in Northern Greece, Southern Serbia and Western Macedonia. The Turkish population of Albanian descent is considered to be between 4 and 12 million today. Albanians made the majority in Nis until 1878, Skopje was virtually Albanian with a very small Serbian and Bulgarian (back then) minority. This all changed in 1912, when Serbia invaded.
The more real truth: That's one of the biggest lies ever. Where did you get all those fake numbers? Albanians became the majority of the population in Kosovo only after the WWII because they had on average 7-8 kids per family.
Quote : It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo.
Truth: The conflict in Kosovo cannot compare with the previous one that took place in Bosnia, and some parts of Croatia. Being half Croatian and half Serbian, I developed a very neutral view, meaning that I understood both sides why they engaged in a war, but at the same time, I was also very angry on polititians from both sides, as they were dividing genetically and culturaly very close nations. Serbs did awfull crimes in Bosnia (Srebrenica), Croatia (Vukovar) and other places in this war. But not a lot of people know that during the WWII more than 200 000 Serbs were killed or forced to escape Croatia. So the bad guys in the WWII were Croatians. But I'm not going to talk that much about this war, as it is not the subject of our discussion. Kosovo problem is a cause of the previous war, and terrible Milosevic's politics, but the problems that provoked the South Slav conflict were much deeper, meaning the history of the regions whose autonomy was disputed.
The real truth: I believe that the conflicts of the Balkans have a mixed origin. I don't buy the historical factor as being an important one. I believe nationalism, that is the aim for expanssion of territory and control, was the main factor. Milosevic was not the founder of Serbian nationalism. Serbian nationalism is deeply rooted in the Serb collective self. Serbian nationalism was a result of the opportunities that Serbia had had for expanssion (bordering two weakening empires). Serbian nationalism is offensive. Albanian nationalism was a reaction to two expansionist nationalism, that is why it is defensive.
The more real truth: OK, I've heard enough about Serbian nationalism. You can say that Albanian nationalism is a reaction to Serbian, but I say that it's vice versa. On the contrary Croatian nationalism was a reaction to Serbian one, but you know that you had a plan to get Kosovo long before Serbian nationalism.
Quote: Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you!)
Truth: Wow, relax man and breathe deeply. This sounds like a last word from some mad scientist that wants to destroy the planet Earth. Kosovo is not independent, and it never will be. Remember that the Congress of Vienna concluded that changes of borders will not be possible in Europe.
The real truth: If you follow the news, you would know that Kosovo is de-facto independent now. You would also know that the aim of the US, UK, France, Italy, Germany is to grant Kosovo indpendence by the end of the year. You would also know that Russia has said that it will not block any decision reached. You would know that at the UN SC meeting most of the countries supported some sort of independence for Kosovo. I agree that independence is not very good, but it is the best solution for now. Kosovo should have been part of Albania in 1912. Now that is difficult to be done, so Kosovo has to become an independent state. Serbia is no alternative not only because the Kosovars will not accept it, but also because Serbia doesn't have the means to maintain Kosovo as it's territory and does not have any serious plan how to integrate it. Serbian calls for Kosovo to be part of Seria are a result of frustration rather then having any pragmatic aim.
The more real truth: Ha, ha. Funny you mentioned the year 1912, that's when Albania was created, and gained a lot of it's today's northern teritories only thanks to the country of Austria, who didn't want Serbia to have an entrance to sea. And about independence, well it will happen when Russia gives independence to Chechnya, and one other region, i don't remember its name, and if Spain give autonomy to the Basques, so the independence of Kosovo is very unlikely to happen.
Quote: If Kosovo belongs to Serbia then Belgrade and the north of Serbia belongs to Hungary and the US belongs to the indians!
Truth: So here, for the first time in my life I see an Albanian who admits (although it probably wasn't his\her intention) that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians, that's a big step forward. I need to give you one more fact in order to explain why it should still belong to Serbia. Albanians comprised the majority of population in Kosovo only few years after the WWII, for the first time! So, if you can get Kosovo, just because of the extremely high number of children per family, than I will marry 2000 women and they will get me 20 kids each, and then I will move to some north albanian city and ask for the independence of it.
The Real Truth: I have never said that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians. Ethnic Albanians according to historical facts were in the Balkans before everyone else. But this is not important at all. The world belongs to the living people. Not to the ones who have died centuries or millenia ago. Kosovo is mine, because it is mine, not because it belonged to Albanians before Serbs. What I wanted to say was this. "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary." Another important point: According to Ottoman documents, when the Orthodox priest Arsenije left in another element of ethno-symbolism, the people that followed him were Orthodox and some Catholics. Albanians of Kosovo were both Orthodox and Catholic. And knowing that when he left, the national conscienceness was not there yet, one could conclude that the people that he led were ethnically both Albanian and Serb and probably also Bulgarian. The more real truth:
The more real truth: Do you understand what you're writing? If you compare Serbs with the Native Indians in the US, it definitely does mean that Serbs are the first who lived in Kosovo. And this thing that you wrote --- "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary." Well, wouldn't Albania than be like 5 times smaller. There would be a total mess in the whole world. I'm not trying to say that Kosovo should stay Serbian only cause Serbs were the first people there. It should stay part of Serbia cause of everything that happened on Kosovo since the Serbs came, and because the Congress of Vienna concluded that the borders in Europe will not be changed any more.
Quote: Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that.
Truth: No it doesn't unfortunately for you. I already said, the only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian descent are the Dalmatians (Croatia)
The real truth: I think there is no point in arguing here. Claiming that Albanians are not descendants or Illyrians, is like claiming that todays Greeks are not the descendants of Helens. Probably both have some truth in them, in that there are Slavic and other tribes melted within both nations but still, the language and the cultural heritage convay elements of the ancienity of both cultures. I think this is not a forum to discuss this as this should be a matter of real historians and anthropologists. I want to repeat that I don't ever want to say that Kosovo belongs to Albanians because it did in ancient times. That is irrelevant. Kosovo it belongs to Albanians because it belongs to Albanians. History is a 'science' of the past and it should in any way project the future.
The more real truth: OK. I'll let the scientists argue about that. But please take a look at the map of Illyrian territories.
Quote: Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time.
Truth: Really? And did you know that Nemanjic Dynasty is a Serbian dynasty? Gianni ita
The real truth: As I said, the national conscienceness of Serbs was developped in the XIXth century. The Nemanjic Dinasty were ethnically Serb (although there are some contraversial claims by Albanians that they had Albanian origin- difficult to prove; I guess it is similar to the Serbian claim that the Albanian prince Scanderbeg had Serbian roots). They claimed to be be the kings of Serbs, Albanians and Vallahians. But this is not important, there were thousands of kings around the world who lived, ruled and died. And I don't want my life, nor yours to be influenced by that. Yes, there are cultural elements that need to be preserved but life has changed today. The legacies of the past are not that important in our lifes or in our collective being.
The real truth: Nemanjic dynasty albanian, wow. That's probably one of the best lies I've heard. Is Goebbels your relative?
In Conclusion: Serbia needs to treat its nationalism. Expanssion is not possible anymore. It is a far more dynamic world. Greece is trying to make economic expanssion as a remedy for territorial one, which, like Serbia, it cannot do now. That is doomed to fail too. The only way out is by education. The form of nationalism needs to be exposed publically and reverted to a positive form. I believe in the present international arrangement of nation-states, there is need for some patriotism. But patriotism does allow for positivism regarding the neigbours. Serbia cannot be good, if Albanians are not good, and vice-versa. The only way towards the future is by being pragmatic, real patriots and Europeans. Mladic is not a patriot, he is a nationalist. Nationalists are more damaging for the nation than traitors! In fact, they are traitors!
In better conclusion: Albania need to treat its nationalism as well as Serbia does. I agree, no expansions, on any side. Please don't mention education, because Serbia is way in front of Albania in that field. Just take a look at any of the indicators and compare them (literacy rates, number of people with hs diplomas, bachelor, master) Mladic is not a part of this story and doesn't have to do anything with it. I already explained you that you cannot compare Kosovo conflict with '90s conflict between Yugoslav states.
Agree w/ the suggestion The Serb: I agree, to stop this everlasting dispute this article needs to be rewritten and protected. Wikipedia shouldn't be a place for political/ethnic chauvinism and discrimination against minorities...nor political marketing and especially not a subject of an internet warfare....just put it back the way it was a few months ago, it was always kinda pro-albanian but it hasn't been as completely discriminatory and almost rediciously cruel and false concerning Serbs and their historical heritage in that province. NeroN BG
The Albanian: Who should rewrite it? There are two mutually exclusive truths. This needs to be oppened now and people should be allowed to present their view. I think during the status talks there will be a lot of activity around this page.
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I agree NeroN Bg, the previous article was a lot more neutral.
Gianni ita
The Albanian: The previous article was not neutral. It was a Milosevic type propaganda. There was a large portion of racism and it was anti-humane. One sentence was something like: "There was an anticipation for Albanians to be retreated to Turkey," which is an indirect claim for ethnic cleansing.
The Serbo-croato-italian (Gianni ita): Yes, that sentence was part of the article but the article didn't support that policy, it just stated Milosevic's view.
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The previous article was pure Serbian chauvinism! This one is farely unbiased. We should agree in a forum on what should the article contain. Serbs from Serbia should have no say. Only citizens of Kosovo of Serbian ethnic background.
Previous article was at least based on evidences (censuses, accepted historical facts, demographic statistics etc). This article is a big chauvinist, imaginary, Albanian Utopia, based on Albanian estimates which are nowhere near recognition, Albanian numbers and so on. You consider Serbs the enemies, but you cannot erase their history from Kosovo. It dates back 15 centuries, there are plenty of evidences for that, the name of the province, toponyms and the most ancient medieval temples of SOC are located there. Every bird knows that. During the Nemanjic dynasty it was the cultural centre of the Serbian Empire. Has it ever been included in Albania? Has it ever been your centre before Prizren League and later during the 20th century (when Kosovo was given to you by Tito)??? I'm just asking you to follow the ackgowledged facts not make up ones on your own. This site says that there are like 2,5 million people in Kosovo (give me a BREAK!!!!!!), talks about Serbs as savage tribes (Serbs and Croats are both ancient peoples who got slavicised), posesses an incredible level of discrimination and so on. You cannot make up your history, or you can make up one for yourself, w/o rewriting someone else's history. Serbian history is entirely clear and undisputed at least to the 6th century A.D., what happened before that is not really relevant in this matter. Albanian history is very disputable since your origins are not entirely clear (Illyrian? Thracian? Caucasian???), your language either, you are not mentioned in Kosovo before the 16th century and so on. Serbs have nothing to hide or be ashamed of- unlike you guys who erase Serbian history in Kosovo in lack of your own historical ties to that province. I agree, you're a majority- but Serbs are not dead nor entirely expelled from Kosovo. Kosovo is NEVER going to be Albanian- it's going to be multiethnic., both Serbian, Bosniak and Albanian. Because Kosovo is not a nation state- Albania is. And no matter what happens later on- Serbs in Kosovo will be your neigbours, forever and ever. And you cannot live with them unless you have some basic respect and understanding for their culture. There's only one history, and it's based on the facts. Medieval history of Kosovo is that of the Serbian nation, and you have no right to manipulate with that. History of Kosovo during late Ottoman era is mostly connected with the Albanians, but Serbs have remained to live there, even during Tito who tried to denie them that right. You're a majority in Kosovo- but nobody will take you seriously unless you have evidential support for your claims, which you don't. Kosovo is not some mythical island in the middle of nowhere-it's a country in the middle of Balkans, on the crossroads that lead to Asia and Western and South Europe. Its history is pretty clear, only the question is if the real history really matters in Kosovo, or is it still in its mythical- irracional stage, such were the Balkan states upon the Slavic arrival some 1,500 years ago. NeroN BG
For a multiethnic Kosovo
1st, history is not important for politics. Religion is not important for politics. Once you engage any of the two in your decision-making, you will only bring tragedies. Albanian history is far clearer than the Serbian one. It dates back to the 2millenium before christ. There are enough historical facts, that I am not going to put down here. However, it should suffice to say that Albanian history was not written by Albanians but by Germans, English, Dutch, Italian and French historians. So, the chances that there is bias are much smaller. The Serbian history has been written by Serb nationalist historians. I say nationalist, because we both know we live in the age of nationalism and we both know that historians are producers of history to suit nationalistic goals rather then to find out what has happened in the past. All illyrian toponyms can be explained through Albanian. Dardania, the ancient name for Kosovo, Western Macedonia and Southern Serbia in toda's Albanian would be Dardhania, which means the land of pears (Krusevo). Go to Ecnyclopedia Britanica and seek for the origin of Albanian language and you will see that all names of ancient Greece Gods can be explained through Albanian:
Greek Illyrian Today's Albanian English Zeus Zojs Zot God Afrodita Afrodita Aferdita Early morning (Morning star)
This indicates that Albanians and Greek may have a common origin and that Greece was modified while Albanian remained more faithful to the old root. I am not saying this to tell you that Albanians have a historical reason to live in Kosovo. I believe history is not important! History is cration of the past as the facts are so scarce that you simply cannot rely on them. It's the same as religion, the facts are so scarce that a certain religion is the right one that you simply cannot base your faith on facts. You either believe it or you don't and once you believe it then you start making up facts to fit your belief. THat is why history and religion should not interfere with politics.
I agree that Serbs have lived throughout the Ottoman empire in Kosovo, Ottoman documents claim that they were a minority but it doesn't matter. Not the Serbian nation! The Serbian nation is a result of XIXth century, when ethnic Serbs were a minority in Kosovo. I fully agree that Serbs have every right to live in Kosovo. The goal of the institutions of Kosovo is to achieve that aim. Of course this is not presented in Serbia as Serbia is not interested to see the Kosovo Serbs live in Kosovo, Serbia is interested to see them suffering as only in this way can it win over Albanians and erase what has happened in the past 100 years?
-Do you know that the government of Kosovo has paid with the Kosovo money some 12 million euros to rebuild the houses of returning Serbs and the damaged religious property only in 2004-2005? Some 10 more million in the preceeding years.
-Do you know that although Serbs make 6 percent of the population, in the last Parliament they made some 18%? 23 out of 120 MPs were Serb; www.skupstinakosova.org go check the archive for the previous legislature)? In the current one they did't participate but they have 10 reserved seats. There is one Serb minister in the Government of Kosovo. Do you know that 15% of the Kosovo Police Service are Serbian?
-Do you know that Serbian is the Second official language in Kosovo, decided by Albanians. Every official document of public interest is translated into Serbian. All official websites of Kosovo are in Serbian too. Albanian is an official language in Macedonia only in towns where Albanians make the majority and Albanians make some 26% of the population of Macedonia?
-Do you know that some 14% of all employees in the public sector in Kosovo are Serb (Serbs make only 6% of the people)?
-Do you know that Serbs in most regions of Kosovo do not pay for telephone and electricity?
-Do you know that Serbs have more freedom of movement in Kosovo then Albanians? Serbs go to Albanian areas, Albanians cannot go to Serb enclaves, particularly in the North.
-Do you know that in all survays, economic problems are the No.1 problems of Kosovo Serbs? Not political ones?
-Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are a very unfortunate ethnic group? Do you know that they are hated by the people in Kosovo because of what Serbia did over them together with some manipulated Kosovo Serbs? Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are victims of Belgrade too? Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are probably hated more in Nis and Belgrade then in Kosovo?
-What should Kosovo do more? Please give a rational pragmatic and realistic idea here!
Serb Response: - First, do you know that Kosovo is still part of Serbia?
- Second, who "gave" to Serbs all the things you wrote?
!- Greek Illyrian Today's Albanian English Serbian??
Ζεύς Zojs Zot Zevs Zevs
I don't understand what do you want to say??
- What is so strange that the second official language on Kosovo, still part of Serbia, is Serbian???
- Do you know that Serbia pays credits for Kosovo?
- Do you know that a large amount of Serbs on Kosovo DON'T HAVE telephone and electricity?
- If Serbs on Kosovo are so free as you say, why then police must cover them to the monastery on some of our holy days. Why police leads them to the cemeteries which they find ruind?
-Kosovo is still part of Serbia, and Serbs are treated as foreign. What can we except when Kosovo becomes independent?
Albanian response to Serb response -Kosovo is not part of Serbia, the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government have no relation with Serbia whatsoever. They are responsible ot the people and the UN SC. They have decided to have Serbian as the second official language because of the Serbian minority. Instead of being arrogand, one should be thankful. It was the Albanians who decided to have Serbian as an official language to accomodate the 6% Serb minority in Kosovo. They could have as well decided for Albanian only.
-It was the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government that gave those to the Serbs. You can check the web-pages of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Prime Minister www.pm-ksgov.nt Assembly of Kosovo www.assemblyofkosovo.org
-What I wanted to explain to you is that the name of Zeus according to British Encyclopeida has the same root with the Albanian word for God ('Zot' Illyrian 'Zoys'). Albanians call Zeus-Zeus. All the names of other Greek Gods are explained through Albanian in the Encyclopedia Britanica. Again this is just an argument that Albanians are an ancient Balkanic group. Howevever, I am not claiming that Albanians have historic rights over Kosovo. No one does! Illyrians inhabited it, Romans governed it, Greeks introduced Christianity, Bulgarians introduced the Orthodox Church, Serbs governed it in the middle ages, Turks governed it for 500 years, Serbs governed it for 100 years. But no one has historic rights over the territory. The right belongs to the living people and those want Kosovo to be independent.
-I know that Serbia says that it pays credits for Kosovo. Thank you for doing that! We would appreciate it very much of other neighbouring countries start to do the same. What I am trying to say is that the fact that Serbia is paying for Kosovo debts, does not make Albanians Serbian loyal citizens. I think it would be good if Serbia follows the example of Kosovo and starts paying reparations, accordint to UNHCR Serbia burned down some 120,000 houses; 65,000 of them unrepairable.
-Telephone and electricity: The Kosovo institutions have moved in some measures to make the people pay for what they spend. Kosovo Serbs haven't paid for the past 7 years, they owe millions to the Kosovo Electical Company and the Kosovo Post and Telecommunications.
-Kosovo Serbs are not treated as foreigners at all, as I explained with the facts of how overrepresented they are in Kosovo institutions. Citizens of Serbia, be they Serb or Albanian, are treated as foreigners. There is a border with check-points in both Kosovo and Serbian side, after all.
-I explained earlier that Kosovo Serbs are over-represented and enjoy some very special rights that no other group of people enjoys in the Balkans. But unfortunately, they are hated by the people for what Serbia has done in the past 100 years. Serbia is not helping in this respect. There has been no appology, the number of trials for war crimes is riddiculously small and there is not talk for reparations. Kosovo institutions have undertaken numerous campaigns and have paid large sums of money to help reconciliation, but Serbia is obstructing it, very successfuly so far. Unfortunately, as I said, Kosovo Serbs overall are more hated in Serbia then Kosovo. While Kosovo accepts them as its own citizen, Serbia treats them as second hand citizen or as citizen of an external colony. So the only solution is, for Serbia to tell them to shift their loyalty to Prishtina and to cooperate with Prishtina in order to ensure they get proper rights and attention.
--- The Serb: Man you definitely are some relative of Joseph Goebbels. You make everything seem as if Serbs are the bad guys, who have no reasons to claim its territory. Just beware foreign readers, of this pure manipulation of your minds by this inteligent albanian.
--- The Albanian response: Hahahaha if anything is false from what I said, and if anything that I said goes against the best of Serbia and Kosovo, then you can call me Goebbels or whatever you feel like. I think I want the best for Kosovo and for Serbia. The independence of Kosovo is the best solution, in absence of a better one. The life in the Balkans would have been much better had Kosovo become part of Albania in 1912. Now, that is difficult to be done, so Kosovo has to become a state. Two million is not much but is as much as Slovenia and Macedonia and more then Montenegro, so Kosovo represents the mean in the scale of sizes of population of the successor states of Yugoslavia.
--- The (half ;)) Serb: Look, I am tired of wars, of politics, of nationalism... I lived in Croatia during the war, and I was half Croatian, half Serbian. Whole my life i have spoken about peace and tolerance, but now I can catch myself thinking as misanthrope. I can do nothing about Kosovo independence. Kosovo will become independent, we all know that, and so be it. Don't think that I aprove that. That is totally illegal. Why don't forces of world give independence in Russia, in Spania..? But...I am one (we are 10 milions...)... What I only want to do here is to help to leave history as it was... You might be Albanian, you might fight for independence of Kosovo, but where is humanity if you say that this article is accurate.. I really doubt in your roots in Illyrians, and I will deny it over, and over because it was declared just few years ago as a goal to claim land of Kosovo which is stupid, with no archeological evidences or anything.. The land of Albania was created after wars on balcan. Albania was in fact Serbian, but great forces created Albania so Serbia could not have sea.. Create your history now, don't try to invert the history. About the facts you answered me...
- I don't know why do you think and how do you know that Serbs for Serbia hate Serbs from Kosovo? OK, it was already said that Serbs hate all people, but that Serbs hate their own nation is too much, don't you think?
- Kosovo is part of Serbia. How can you speak that nonsence??? It is not independent. Why do we then have negotiations? Do you see how you treat Serbs as foreign..? You are talking about giving them some rights in their own land? As I said, what will happen when they lose their land?
- About electricity - Only Serbs haven't paid electricity? Eh, how could it be?.....
- Serbia burned houses?... I should not answer this at all... How many monasteries,just, were burned by Albanians??
- Tell me why Albanians were not indetificed as Illyrians before? Why is the history of people who lived 3000 years on this area so dark and unknown? Please, just without Serbs :)..
..Men you're killing me...
--Mephistophilus 05:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The Albanian: I am never tiered helping vanish ingnorance. I believe ignoranace is what makes masses follow leaders like Milosevic. U2 have a song in which they say "the less you know the more you believe." I am not trying to offend, but say that the conflicts of former Yugoslavia have strangled all of us be it Albanian, Croatian or Serb. I will address your points again one by one:
-Kosovo is de-facto independent. It has all a country needs to be independent: institutions, police, army, borders. The negotiations are for the rights of the Serbs in Kosovo and for the international status of Kosovo.
-But of course, Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. It doesn't have the democratic means to do it. Do you honestly believe Serbia can take effective control of Kosovo? But Russia had to let Latvia and Ukraine go where large numbers of Russians live. In Latvia they are even not given linguistic rights. Russia doesn't want to give up Chechenya for strategic reasons... The Spanish Catalans don't really want to be independent, in a referendum some 60% of people would vote te remain part of Spain, with some autonomy. The same with Northern Ireland, 55% of the people want to be part of Britain, that is why they are. The British are sick and tiered of Northern Ireland issue.
-No, it is not only the Serbs who don't pay for electricity. But the Serbian press covers only the Serbs when their electricity is cut. Do you understand, one needs to pay for what one spends. Now, you may be part of a 'heavenly nation' but wait until you die to rip the rewards. In this life we all have to be equal :).
-About burning houses, oh I can tell you: Becuse of the conflict: In 1997-1999: Some 120,000 houses were burned, some 600 Albanian religious buildings too In 1999-2003: Some 2,000 Serbian houses were burned, some 80 Serbian religious buildings too I think both sides should take responsibility for what they have done. Kosovo has started in a very good vay, by paying for reconstruction. Serbia should do it too soon! Hey by the way, do you know what is expecting Serbia? The UNHCR have all the data for the burned houses, and you know that reparations are a normal thing in Europe since WWII. Let me do a little calculation: So, Serbia burned down 120,000 houses at let's say... erm.... what 30,000 Euro per average? OK so 120,0000 x 30,000 = 3,600,000,000. NICEEEE!!!!! Let me predict you will start paying in 2015 and you will finish some 30 years later. And yes, this was only the private property. And this happens only because Serbia is unlucky, it is situated in Europe! If it were like you say somewhere close to Russia, then it probably would have never paid.
-It was known since the middle ages that Albanians were the descendants of Illyrians. THere are numerous documents from the Vatican that prove that. There are countless western records of the 18th, 19th and 20th century that prove that with facts. Kosovo is an archeological gold-mine. (We found an Illyrian tomb of the third century B.C. in my grandfather's property).
You are talking about multiethnical Kosovo, and you are writing like the Albanian country is Kosovo, and Serbian Serbia. I don't understand.. Quote: I think both sides should take responsibility for what they have done. Kosovo has started in a very good vay, by paying for reconstruction. Serbia should do it too soon! It is funny how you treat Kosovo as independent and sovereign country. Does it have constitution? Borders?? passport.. Army? Kosovo has army?? It is funny that you treat Kosovo as it was never part of Serbia. Actually, every your word is funny..
Quote:It was known since the middle ages that Albanians were the descendants of Illyrians. THere are numerous documents from the Vatican that prove that. There are countless western records of the 18th, 19th and 20th century that prove that with facts. Kosovo is an archeological gold-mine. (We found an Illyrian tomb of the third century B.C. in my grandfather's property).
Please give me some evidence... I mean, if you are really Illyrians..you should have something written for 3000 thousand years. Give me some document, anything that will prove you are right.. Don't just speak nebulosity, please...
Anyway, you are skipping the main thing. We are here to discuss about article, not about should Kosovo be independent or not. Tell me, honestly, do you really think that this present article is 100% accurate? Do you really think that on this article should be Albanian history? Do you really think this article is neutral? If you say yes than there is no point for discussing anymore. --Mephistophilus 13:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Albanian response: Yes, Kosovo has constitution (read it at http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm). Kosoovo has it's borders and the Kosovo Border Police supported by KFOR troops and UN Police Check the borders and there are 8 border-crossings with Serbia, Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro. Kosovo has an Army in the process of creation, Kosovo Protection Corps (check http://www.joinkpc.org/), by the time Kosovo has its own army, it will continue to have the NATO-led KFOR. Kosovo has passports, although they have the UN Logo presently since Kosovo is still not internationally recognized. And yes, Kosovo was a Serbian colony for almost a hundred years. Indeed a colony as the people of Kosovo was invaded and never agreed to live under the Serbian state.
What evidence do you want? Go read the Gjon Buzuku's 'Meshari' (1555), read also the Marin Barleti's "Hisotory of Scanderbeg" (1502) and you will find enough information about that. I could do a thorough research but it's not worth it here. What is left from Illyrian is the toponyms. They used Latin in administration and writing. Albanian did that unitl recently.
I think that there are different views to history. Rather, different interpretation. I am sure the history of Bulgarians or of Turks about Kosovo would be completely different. However, I believe that the people of Kosovo have the right to their own history. The people of Serbia have the right over the history of Serbia. If you tell me that you think that the History of Serbia is true, then there is nothing we can talk about either. I am fully certain that this version of history takes into considration both Albanian and Serb points of view, to a large extant. There is always room for improvement. But I believe Kosovo belongs to the people who live there, and it should reflect their interpretation of the past.
Trust me I haven't checked the entry about "Serbia". Why do you care about Kosovo or Albania? Be a nice neigbour and mind your own business... ;)
First, all of you, Albanian and Serb alike need to realize that two wrongs don't make a right. This situation is more complex than any outside party, particularly in the US, can comprehend. However, I have to state that if 80-90% of the Population is Albanian, why should they not have their independence? This situation and the long slew of retaliations, counter-retaliations, etc. could have been avoided if Serbia and the international community would just accept the right of the 80-90% majority to have their way. It's called democracy. Anything else would be as futile as Native Americans calling to control the US. Except that the Native Americans would probably be more justified in their claim than the Serbs to their claims over the Albanians.
I see nothing on this talk page but the usual partisan shouting match. Please take it to a forum site or somewhere. This is an encyclopedia. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 02:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This is totally wrong. First of all the US destroyed their Native American Populations in the 1890s and second of all Kosovo is the heartland of serb culture. Serious NPVO -Lazar
How can Kosovo be the heart of a culture which makes up 10% of the population? - confused asian reader
On Kosovo there are one of the oldes churches, built by . Kosovo was Serbian, and Serbs lived on Kosovo trough whole Serbian history. While country was under Titos reign, he particulary evicted Serbs from Kosovo, and gave Kosovo to Albanians... --Mephistophilus 20:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Lazar; it's true that Kosovo is 88% Albanian today however that huge shift in population has taken place during the course of the 20th century alone. They consisted some 50% of the population at the beginning of the century but Serbs have consisted some 40% at that time, which you cannot denie. Turks did not succeed in expelling the Serbs from Kosovo but Albanians surely did. I bet that some parts of New Mexico could ask for independence taking that it has an overwhelming Mexican majority. It was the same between Mex-Usa as it is with Serbia (Kosovo) and Albania; Albanians were attracted towards Kosovo by a much higher standard of living, exceptionally big freedoms (given to them by Tito) and Tito's policy itelf, which were all at a far better level than those in Albania, that was at the time a xenophobic, extremely impoverished and isolated country. Kosovo became an Albanian Uthopia during 20th century and the large scale colonization from Albania and an extremely high birth rate has enabled their dream. During all that time Serbs were stagnating population wise. Today there are less Serbs in Kosovo than there were during medieval period, upon the Turkish conquest, 600 years ago, but their culture still remains there (churches, frescoes, UNESCO protected monasteries, imperial cities in ruins, toponyms etc). You cannot just erase someone's 1400 year old history and rewrite a new one. Serbian history in Kosovo has a strong evidential, cultural and historical backing, unlike Albanian history in that area (or in general?). There are still debates over the Albanian origin which are no where near its final solution (Thracian/Illyrian/Caucasian theories???).... p.s.Kosovo is not meant to be a Second Albania, nor its realistic to believe that the world would support such a claim (escpecially after refusing to support the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, Ukrainians in Transdniestria etc). Kosovo should be a multiethnic land, independent or not. The world cannot afford to see Greater Albania materializing in the middle of Europe.NeroN BG
If Goebbles was alive, he would be so envious to some Serbs who spread propaganda all over! It's absolutely unbeliveable. I would feel rage if I knew that they're doing that on purpose, but I would feel really sad if they actually believ in that posionous tapestry of lies taht hey write here. I won't make it long, but just a few points that I noticed above on the discussions. -If Serbia claims Kosovo because of a couple of mediveal churches, then why not claim Greece, where their oldest Serb church of Hilandar is located? Plus, the authnticity of the churches is unknown, due to the fact that Kosovo Albanians before the Ottoman conquest were mostly orthodox christians who adhered to the Serbian Ortjodox Church! -Kosovo was never a cradle of Serbia! The first Serbian state was formed in Raska and Zeta as we all know. How did yu make Kosovo a cradle then? -How do you claim neutrality ehen all the links that you provide are either Serb or Serb-biased sites. What about links from world renowned media? Claiming that KLA was ever considered terrorist is a plain lie, Goebbles-style. KLA was a NATO ally during the bombings, as we all know. If you believ otherwise, put up a link to the document that states that they were terrorists ever! But don't bring leftist antiwar-com type of sites as sources as they are all biased. I said world renowned. -Where in earth does it say that Kosovo is a part of Serbia??? Except in Serbia, of course! UN Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo plainly states that Kosovo remains a part od Yugolslavia (present Serbia & Montenegro) and nowhere does it say that Kosovo is a part of Serbia. -It's useless to tak about statistics. Everything you quote is Belgrade-produced and we now hw neutral and unbiased was that. -Finally, why do you keep talking about 600-700 years ago history. Yes, Kosovo was a part of Serbia at that time, as man parts of Albania, Greece, Macedonia and Bulgaria were, too, but that doesn't make it a part of Serbia today. Why don't you claim the other states, too? And especially Greece becayse of Hilandar church? Even if Kosovo was part of Serbia, before that it was a part of Byzantine empire, before that of a Bulgarian empire and before that it was Albanian-Illyrian. It might have taken a lot of centuries, but now the record is being set straight, so if you look back in history then look back to the oldest records and that tells you that present Kosovo was Illyrian Dardania and there are unlimited resources who prove ALbanians's Illyrian descent (e.g. read renowned scholar Aleksandar Stipcevic - a Croatian, not an Albanian!).
I could go on and on, cos there is just so much pro Serbian propganda here, but I'll stop now. After all, I gues the best solution as suggested above is that a very basic neutral article is written and locked to editing, until the Kosovo stauts talks end later this year. Then a proper article can be written. Otherwise, this article is gonna be a battlefield of distasteful propaganda from both sides; and that doesen't do honor to a respectful resource as Wikipedia.
--- Quote: Claiming that KLA was ever considered terrorist is a plain lie, Goebbles-style. KLA was a NATO ally during the bombings, as we all know.
Yes, KLA was NATO ally, but they were terrorist army ;) Why can't I create army in my city and fight for its independence? :)
Quote: -Finally, why do you keep talking about 600-700 years ago history. Yes, Kosovo was a part of Serbia at that time, as man parts of Albania, Greece, Macedonia and Bulgaria were, too, but that doesn't make it a part of Serbia today.
Serbia don't claim anything. Serbia don't need to claim anything. Kosovo is not part of another state. It is part of Serbia for last 50 years. Medieval Kosovo is just the prove that Kosovo was Serbian trough whole history, but that is not important. Important is situation in last 10 (50) years. Now, the things can not be same as before. Kosovo will never be part of Serbia like before, but it should not be independent.
Quote: Why don't you claim the other states, too?
As I said, we don't claim Kosovo. Kosovo is part of Serbia. I can't beleive you say that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. What is it than?
Quote: Kosovo was Illyrian Dardania and there are unlimited resources who prove ALbanians's Illyrian descent
I would try to find something about it. But, I don't understand that nation who lives 3000 thousand years on the same place don't have any written document. It's really funny :))
Quote: I could go on and on, cos there is just so much pro Serbian propganda here, but I'll stop now. After all, I gues the best solution as suggested above is that a very basic neutral article is written and locked to editing, until the Kosovo stauts talks end later this year. Then a proper article can be written. Otherwise, this article is gonna be a battlefield of distasteful propaganda from both sides; and that doesen't do honor to a respectful resource as Wikipedia.
Here, I agree. Just, offcourse I would say pro Albanian (interesting,he?) (maybe both). peace;))
Hey Ilir, I've never said that Kosovo should become independent, and if you asked me I would tell you that Kosovo shouldn't EVER gain independence. But it's not my decision to make, the international community will decide. Do I need to remind you that both Republics of Srpska and Krajina were in their respective teritories 90% Serbian but they never gained independence nor they ever will!!! Think about it... NeroN BG.... p.s. If Kosovo becomes independent, Greater Albania is reality, maybe not today nor tomorrow but sometime in the future it's certain. Noone could expect that 2 German states exist side by side for a longer period of time, so why would the two Albanian states do that???? And, btw, all that Illyrian propaganda, I agree, it's just redicilous. Instead of repeating like a broken record it's about time u started to think about your real origins. Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history, you only have proof that Illyrians lived on ur teritory, like they did elsewhere in the Balkans upon Slavic arival....name one respectable world class scientist who supports the Albanian- Illyrian theory. There are NONE cause it's simply not true and even if it did, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo was the heartland of Serbian culture between 12th and 17th centuries. It was clearly more or less one nation territory, core of Serbian/Byzantine world.
You Serbs are really something, unbeliveable! Just a feq quick answers:
Quote "Yes, KLA was NATO ally, but they were terrorist army ;) Why can't I create army in my city and fight for its independence? :)" You don't make sense here or like most of the Serbs you're callin NATO and NATO countries terrorists, same as you call KLA and ALbanians. You can't create an army in your city, cos nobody is killing you there on daily basis and your city is not occupied by a foreign illegitimate army. If it were, you would form an army and fight to liberate your city or country. That's what KLA did.
Quote "Serbia don't claim anything. Serbia don't need to claim anything. Kosovo is not part of another state. It is part of Serbia for last 50 years. Medieval Kosovo is ..." Actually Serbia claims Kosovo day and night! Don't you read nay news, or watch the TV at least? Listen to your leaders and hear them claim the Serb rights to Kosovo. You've been misinterpreting the myth of mediveal Kosovo to enforce such claims and you've repeated it so much that you actually believe in it now. Therefore, you should claim Greece if you really love the churches. Hilandar is in Greece and not in Kosovo and it is the most sacred Serbian church, isn't it? And no talk about Raska and Zeta? They are the real Serbian heartlands and not Kosov. Serbia occupied Kosovo after it became a stronger state in Raska and surroundings; emphasize the word OCCUPY! Cos it wasn't yours by default, was it?
Quote "As I said, we don't claim Kosovo. Kosovo is part of Serbia. I can't beleive you say that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. What is it than?"
Well, show me one document that proves that Kosovo is part of Serbia. It was recognized as a part of Yugoslavia by the UN, but there's no word of being part of Serbia in the Un Security Council Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo. Kosovo was re-occupied by Serbia in 1912 after the Ottoman Empire was crumbling. Nobody asked the Albanians for that, otherwise Kosovo would have long been a part of ALbania, as it was years before. However, your propaganda of a Greater ALbania threat presently is unsubstantiated and nonsense. In both countries, more than 90% of the people want to live in separate states, so that idea is a myth.
Quote "I would try to find something about it. But, I don't understand that nation who lives 3000 thousand years on the same place don't have any written document. It's really funny :))"
Nothing funny about it. Albanians have been occupied and re-occupied by different states and empires who pillaged and destroyed everything they saw in front of them. Only in the time of the de-centralized Ottoman Empire could the Albanians develop their writing thoroughly and it wasn't destroyed cos the Ottomans stayed for 500 years. Everything that existed before them was destroyed by the various armies who oppressed Kosovo. There are no written documents of many other nations and peoples, Dardans/Illyrians are not an exception.
And actually, you all know now that Kosovo will become independent by the end of the year. The West, although with almost 100 years delay, is correcting a big wrong that they allowed to happen in Kosovo, when they legitimized the Serbian occupation at the Treaty of Versaille.
To end with this very funny quote from the other guy: "Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history..." Where on earth did you find that to be true? I'm so curious to know then, whre were teh Serbs in the First Century AD, at the time when the Albanians were accepting Christianity? Where did you exist, what did you do?
I still think that this article should be very basic, unbiased and locked for some time...
Dear chetnicks, Your vodja is dead now. Why don't you all make a consensus that he lost your war and save some face. By making this type of propaganda none will believe you. You will also only harm yourselves. Don't play with numbers. You say that Serbs were 40% at the begining of the century and that Albanians a strong minority was able to expell them, although they were a colonized people of Serbia. Thanks a lot, that gives us a bit more credit than we have. I don't want to repeat things for you. But I can tell you, find something better to do. Stop the propaganda because for as long as you do, you will get reactions
Propaganda? Don't speak about propaganda when you write about Albanian Milos Kopilic? When you write about ethnic cleaning in every second sentence? When in every article about Albania you write about Albanian roots in Kosovo, about Dardanians, and Dardania.. On some Albanian forum, Albanians call Kosovo Dardania... omg..
Quote: Well, show me one document that proves that Kosovo is part of Serbia. It was recognized as a part of Yugoslavia by the UN, but there's no word of being part of Serbia in the Un Security Council Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo.
I asked you, what is it than?
Quote: To end with this very funny quote from the other guy: "Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history..."....
It's not 2000 years of history, it's 1400. But again, you quote him, and just after that you write that Albanians received Christianity in the 1st century.. :)))) Was Christ Albanian?:))
Quote: Nothing funny about it. Albanians have been occupied and re-occupied by different states and empires who pillaged and destroyed everything they saw in front of them. Only in the time of the de-centralized Ottoman Empire could the Albanians develop their writing thoroughly and it wasn't destroyed cos the Ottomans stayed for 500 years. Everything that existed before them was destroyed by the various armies who oppressed Kosovo. There are no written documents of many other nations and peoples, Dardans/Illyrians are not an exception.
As we can see, no evidence about Illyrian origin.:) All old people who "dissapeared" have merged with other nations. You claim that Albanians are direct descendents from Illyrians! See...
Quote: Actually Serbia claims Kosovo day and night! Don't you read nay news, or watch the TV at least? Listen to your leaders and hear them claim the Serb rights to Kosovo. You've been misinterpreting the myth of mediveal Kosovo to enforce such claims and you've repeated it so much that you actually believe in it now. Therefore, you should claim Greece if you really love the churches.
Again, Kosovo should not be Serbian because of middle age, but because of modern age.. It was part of our country for last 60-70 years. Why should it be other country now? ;)
Quote: You don't make sense here or like most of the Serbs you're callin NATO and NATO countries terrorists, same as you call KLA and ALbanians. You can't create an army in your city, cos nobody is killing you there on daily basis and your city is not occupied by a foreign illegitimate army. If it were, you would form an army and fight to liberate your city or country. That's what KLA did.
First, I don't judge people according to nation, religion etc. No, I don't call NATO countries, countries of terrorist (STUPID!). I just can not understand that you say that KLA fought against FOREIGN ILLEGITIMATE ARMY!!! KLA is legal army than??? You are so good in skewing the facts.. War was not created because Serbs waked up one morning and said "Hey, let's kill Albanians"... We both bare guilt, and we will be free when we both admit our own guilt. KLA fought for Kosovo independence from Serbs, it was not "self-defence" army. Kosovo was not occupied by nobody. Kosovo was Serbian land with major Albanian people. There is "Kosovo" in Kanada, "Kosovo" in Spania, in Croatia...etc...
Quote:Dear chetnicks, Your vodja is dead now.
Chetinicks? Nice(Bad) sense for humor;) Why not partisans???? Our vodja is alive (Boris Tadic). Men, please don't live in history. peace,again;)
-Facts: Albanians comprised a majority of population only after the WWII because of a very extreme birth policies, every family had around 5 kids on average. That's one of the reasons why you just can't say, 'this is democracy, let's give'em a country because there are so many of them now', why basques can't have independence, why serbs in bosnia can't have independence and their own republic (in the case of bosnian serbs, they have a bigger right to ask for the independence because they were always in Republika Srpska (part of Bosnia and Herzegovina), and have always been the majority there. But, the UN, and the Congress in Vienna after the WWII decided that there will be no changes of borders anymore, so let's respect that.
One more thing the policies of Joseph Goebbels are found in Albanian media and politics and not in Serbian, as I mentioned a long time before some albanian accused serbian media of being goebbels-like.
I know this is a mildly heated subject but still... The following section of the history-part doesn't coincide very well with other parts of the wikipedia describing these events:
"After the Dayton Agreement and numerous atrocities committed by Serb security forces inside Kosovo, the disillusioned Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started a guerrilla war for liberation. The Serb reaction was stiff in plundering Albanian villages and executing civilians."
Is it possible that whoever wrote this/agrees with this interpretation support some sources? Thanks, andreas_td 00:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC+2)
Yes, Serbs DO have a 2000 year long history. Their history in the Balkans is indeed some 1400 years long but that is not when this nation was first mentioned nor formed. Tacitus (ca. 50 AD): described the Serboi tribe near the Caucasus. Pliny (69-75 AD): "... beside the Cimerians live Meotics, Valians, Serbs (Serboi), Zingians, Psesians." (Historia naturalis, VI, c. 7 & 19 Leipzig 1975). Ptolemy (150 AD): " ... between the Keraunian mountains and the river Pa, live the Orineians, Valians and Serbs." (Geographia V, s. 9). Ptolemy also mention the city in Pannonia named Serbinum (present day Bosanska Gradiška in Republika Srpska). In the third century Roman emperor Licinius referred to the Carpathians as 'Montes Serrorum' ("Serb mountains"). It is accepted among most scientists that Serbs as well as Croats are of Iranian origin since the evidences that mention these two people are located in Iran, Afghanistan, Caucausus and Southern Russia (unlike Albanians who have no written proofs of their origins before 12th century). NeroN BG
GOD HIMSELF IS IN THE SIDE OF ALBANIANS. FORTUNATELY, THEY WILL SOON GET THEY'RE INDEPNDENCE...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Petrit Augustini (talk • contribs)
This god you talk about, is he very busy? Albania has been independant since 1913 and it was still there last time I read a history book... Litany
Article might not be perfect but your provocations make it worse. Wikipedia is not meant to be an Albanian mouthpiece. I have provided references for all my edits. It is not enough reason to delete them simply because they do not benefit your version of the events. Where are all the Admins when you need them? Asterion 21:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, very few people support Milosevic in Serbia, and you know that. Not all Serbian patriots are from his party (most of them are not). The average age of people who support Milosevic is around 60, so it is very unlikely to find anyone of that age here discussing the issue of Kosovo with us. Gianni_ita
And regarding the "patriotism" issue in Serbia, most of those who call themselves a "Serbian patriots" are greatest enemies of the Serbian people, because their goal is to drag Serbia into new wars, which would cause great suffer to the Serbian people. What Serbia need is peace, better economy and more jobs, and not those so called "patriots", which is another word for MAFIA in Serbia. The reasons why wars in the former Yugoslavia started at all is because MAFIA saw these wars as an opportunity to get rich (and war is a perfect opportunity for that indeed). PANONIAN (talk) 21:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, I am not supporting the independence of Kosovo. That would be just ridiculous. Gianni_ita
Litany, Asterion and e few other editors amaze me with their prompt reverts. I don't know why they are not banned from Wikipedia. Serbian nationalism and expanssionism has cost Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Kosovars, Macedonians and Serbs so much that it just doesnt make any sense anymore. I would suggest to you two, dear colleagues (and others on your side) to bury Serb expanssionism and extreme nationalism with Milosevic. Kosovo is becoming independent this year, and there is nothing that can stop it. I suggest a pact: Let us work on the Kosovo article. We will let you work on the Serbia and related articles. If you do not agree with the version of the hisory of our country, Kosovo, then we will have to help you improve the entries on Serbia and Serbian history. I believe it's time for all to work together for a better Balkans in the world. Let's leave the past behind. Let's help each other acquire a better image internationally. If we continue with destructiveness, then we pay tribute to Milosevic and the alike. I am kindly begging you, to leave Kosovo to Kosovars. If you stop your obstructiveness, soon I will write a version that will satify both sides. If you want to continue this Wiki-war, I will have to sadly participate in it.
I was never interested much to edit Kosovo article, and I am not interested in it now as well, but I quite often read this talk page usually to laugh about this Serb-Albanian arguing. It is bad that both, Serb and Albanian users who participate in this edit war think that Wikipedia is a best place for propaganda wars. I do not know who you are, but I do not like your threat that you will "help" about Serbia-related articles, because some Serbs "helping" you about Kosovo article. First, you can see that these Serbs who "helping" you did not edited much these Serbia-related articles, but most of their edits are related to Kosovo, while most of other Serb users who had much edits in Serbia-related articles, mostly did not edited Kosovo article. My point is that if you vandalize Serbia-related articles as you threat, you will not vandalize the work of these editors with whom you have edit war here, but work of other editors which did not participated in edit war with you. So, you first learn with whom you have dispute here and with whom not, and the second thing is that vandalizing any article on Wikipedia only because you have personal dispute with somebody is not quite accetable behaviour here. As for Kosovo article, the only solution for it is to be permanently locked until the final status of Kosovo is solved, and that only administrators edit this article, and to post in it only NPOV sentences about which both, Albanian and Serb users who participate in this dispute will agree. Opinions about this proposal? PANONIAN (talk) 00:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we talk about the other side a little bit more. Are you aware of the Albanian extreme nationalism (which is from time to time closer to terrorism). It had already claimed hundreds of thousands victims only in Kosovo. Mostly Serbs, but also Roma (Gypsies), and others. It killed numerous Macedonians, and is threatening to do the same with Greeks in northern Greece.
The idea of Great Serbia, was Milosevic's horrible idea that had many followers in the beginning, unfortunately people became aware of the atrocities of these wars started by Serbian forces only too late. Although I sympathize with all the families who lost someone in these wars, one thing must be mentioned, and it is that Serbs had at least 20 times more killed by Croat and Muslim forces in the WWII. But I do not want to measure how much someone is guilty by subtracting these numbers, both sides should be ashamed equaly.
Now, let's go back to the Albanian terrorism. It's origins are much deeper in time, and because of that it has many more followers in Albania and in Albanian population in Kosovo. Since the end of the WWII Albanians used the goodwill of ex Yugoslavian president, Josip Broz Tito, who opened the borders of Serbia to all the Albanians, and gave this Serbian province autonomy. Albanians came in huge numbers because the living standard in Serbia at that time was about 3 times that of Albania. In the end of the WWII there were as many Serbs in Kosovo as there were Albanians. In the '60 the number of albanians rised and they started rioting and asking for the independence, the life for the Serbian population was a hell. And now here we are, we've got 88% of albanians and around 8%of Serbs there. Why? Maybe because of shortlived Serbian nationalism. Or maybe because of the a long time ago planned Great Albania.
And just one more thing. Being Kosovar is not anyones nationality. It just means that you come from Kosovo. There are only kosovar albanians, kosovar serbs.... Gianni_ita
Dear albanian reader, here come the facts, although you were aware of them even before. The official site of Jasenovac http://www.ushmm.org (concentration camp in Croatia for the non croatian population, majority of them were serbs) says that the number of serbs killed by the croats was from 330,000 to 390,000.
Why would the word albanian terrorism offend you, both serbian and albanian regimes turned to paramilitary terrorist forces.
And about Tito, I don't know what is not clear to you. Read history a little bit more from any western book, and you will see. Gianni_ita
Quite clearly anything that contradicts your views will be deleted. I have provided references for all of my edits, which any non-partisan wikipedian could follow up if interested. I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 22:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)