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Hi, can someone enlighten me as to the origin of the phrase "an intentional complication in cordage", as a definition of what a knot is? Was this written by a Wikipedia editor, or this page especially? Or was it taken from some pre-existing work about knots? The phrase is all over the internet, in a way that suggests everyone has just copied the Wikipedia page. But I'd love to be able to name the originator of this phrase/attribute it correctly. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.254.208 (talk) 16:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Line-Editing
(This request is about language, not content.) Starting on several rounds of line edits to bring up the syntax to professional standards. If anyone else with an eye for dangling modifiers and redundancies would like to join, polishing this beautiful article should be a party! Knotfully yours, Knotaholic (October 12, 2009). —Preceding undated comment added 18:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC).
Jamming definition
Can someone explain in the article what jamming and non-jamming mean? As in the Alpine butterfly knot is a non-jamming loop on the bight. --Audiovideo 02:46, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Knot Strength Citations Most of the hard information in the Knot Strength section I recently added comes from The History and Science of Knots for which I added a ref at the bottom of the article. Specifically it comes from Chapter 10, "Studies on the Behaviour of Knots" written by Charles Warner. I'm pretty new to Wikipedia, so if someone more experienced could suggest (or implement :) a reasonable citation method to use here I'd appreciate it. TNX -- Dfred 20:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Something is wrong with >>List of loop knots When klicking on >>List Of loop knots<< at the bottom the >>knot<< page, the knot page is displayed again. The >>List of loop knots<< cannot be reached. Can anybody fix this? (Sorry, I was not able to fix it.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hild (talk • contribs) 18:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I noticed no reference whatsoever to the use of the word "knot" to mean a large wad of bills, generally kept in most urban street entrepeneur's front pant pocket. The wad of bills from a side view resembles layered fibers of an actual rope, while creating an impenetrable dense mass.
Are you spelunking?, having foolishly but voluntarily buried yourself pre-maturely under millions of tons of rock?
Whilst I doubt this has a place in a serious encyclopedia, it kept me amused...
I felt that the basic terms like "bight" were better included in the main entry, so I killed my brand new bight article and stuck it and a few other definitions (wiki not dictionary) in a bulleted list.
I started to do the same to the categories of knots, but backed off when I looked at loop. I still think these terms would be better defined within the main entry. Hearing no objections, I'll probably continue to make these changes, taking care not to make a mess.
Also, how about some sub-categories in that looooong list of knot names? Ortolan88 June 02
Just figured out how 'Talk' works. I am pleased to have the above observations either anonymous or from you Ortolan88.
I am very new to this endeavor and I am still learning the Wiki editing, such as how to embed my handle Satsun, thanks Ortolan88.
like "bight" ... I agree and hope the picture assists. We can keep a brief inline definition and add a link to a more replete link later.
The second observation is right on the mark. I would like to see the categories turned to links and therein will be sub-lists of knots that fall into those categories. Many knots, of course, will appear in multiple lists.
I feel that a comphrensive master list of knots needs to exist for our users. I am hoping to provide a standard look to the pictures. Later adding articles/pictures showing intermediate steps to tying each knot.
A useful list of reference materials is need: Ashley's Book of Knots... A short list of the most practical knots all should know: overhand, figure eight, bowline, constrictor...
Its knot to late to add more good ideas. Satsun, 18 JUNE 2002
Good luck to the person/persons who have taken it upon themselves to complete this part of the pedia. richhill
Hey, Satsun, I like moving the full list of knots out of the article, but how about a short list of knots for the main article, "the eight great knots everyone should know how to tie" or something like that, overhand, square knot (and its buddy the shoe-tying bow), sheet bend, two half-hitches, bowline, figure-of-eight (I knew you knew what you were doing when you didn't call it "figure-eight"), etc. Ortolan88
I have one problem with that. The 'should' in the title seems a bit too prescriptive for an encyclopedia, in my opinion. But that's nothing that can't be solved with a bit of rewording. -- Ellmist
Eight great knots. I don't know that anyone would really get upset by a "should", but ...Ortolan88
hi, Ortolan88/Ellmist,
Please go ahead and add your list. A comment and link to the fellow that has the speed record for tying the the "Scout" knots would also be interesting.
Satsun, Sunday, July 14, 2002
Hi Satsun. I modified your template a little bit to start with a sentence explaining that the entry is a type of knot. I had to read halfway down the Sheepshank page before I realized it was talking about a knot. -- Nate
This article really needs to be split, with a knot disambiguation at the top. Egil 09:04 Feb 3, 2003 (UTC)
You might try to move the top 7 or so knot properties into a table, and leave the main section for history, descriptions, tying tips, proper usage, etc. I do not like the header format - the headers are too large for such small bits of information. Also, the grey and black illustrations are very clear and easy to read. The unprofessional pictures of tightened knots i.e Trucker's_hitch can be somewhat unclear (my apologies to the photographer - those who can't do, whine & complain), although the properly lit shots i.e Figure-of-eight knot can be both attractive and informative.
bowline links to slip knot as part of directions on how to tie it "lighting fast". Unfortunately, this redirects to knot, which doesn't seem to have directions on how to tie a slip knot. *sigh* --Johnleemk 10:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This article is accompanied by a beautiful picture of several knots, conveniently numbered, and I have no idea what any of them are (and since I'm moving, and haven't yet unpacked from moving here, I couldn't tell you where I've put Clifford Ashley). ♥ «Charles A. L.» 01:04, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)
To Ortolan88 .. Dear Sir i think that your idea of eight knots or bends and hitches ,that every one should know is great,but please put in the safe ones, not ones like the blackwall hitch or midshipmans hitch,that will slip if there is any oil on or in the rope,allso, the easy ones,that you can tie in a force eight gale,on a black wet night, Regards Ratty876 ...
Knots, Splices and Rope Work on Project Gutenberg
Project Gutenberg recently posted Knots, Splices and Rope Work, by A. Hyatt Verrill which has many illustrations which could be used for the knot pages. -- Jim Regan 19:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reorganized this discussion in an attempt to make it more readable. Hopefully I have not distorted any of the comments, etc.--my sincere apologies if I have. BoomHitch 03:20, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Caption to the picture identifies knot 1 as a splice which is incorrect - this is a specialist knot used to join marline for serving when a bulky knot is not desired - it is called a marline bend or a 'rope yarn knot' ABoK #2688. In the book it is published in, it is called a garnknop - Swedish translation is 'yarnknot' DerekSmith (talk) 09:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Knot name is a type of knot.
Canonical Name:.
Variant Name(s): None.
[completed picture]
Category: bend.binding.coil.decorative.hitch.lashing.loop on the end.loop on the bight.noose.plaits.stopper.seizing,sennit.whipping.
Origin: Ancient.Modern.Old.Unknown.
Related knots: to other knots
Releasing: Jamming. Non-jamming.
Efficiency: Unknown%.60%.
Caveat: None.spills.slips.secure if wet.not secure if wet.Low efficiency.Difficult to tie.
Uses: Forming other knots, Boating, Fishing, Climbing, Caving, Securing objects, Securing to objects.
Comments:
Structure: ex. Figure-of-eight knot
Tying: article/pictures
Proposal: Template
Reef knot | |
---|---|
File:Sqrknot.png | |
Names | Reef knot, Square knot |
Efficiency | 80% |
Origin | Ancient |
Typical use | Sailing |
Other wikipedia pages use some type of template for information which is laid-out in the same way across many articles, leaving the page itself freeform for writing about that specific item.
Wiki guidelines on information boxes has a few examples
Howabout something like that for knots? Ojw 19:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Most pictures I've seen of this knot show the final half-hitch tossed in reverse of the way the photo (on the page linked to through this intro. article) demonstrates, in this case being thrown "over and under" instead of the "under and over" shown. Either way, it tightens pretty well, but I wonder which version is correct, and which holds better. Sfahey 21:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Per WP:NOT#IINFO: "Wikipedia articles should not ... contain "how-to"s." Thus, in order to comply with the official policy, we should think about removing all how-to and tying instructions from Knot articles. I personally wish it weren't so, but that is the policy. Dddstone 14:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and entries about knots in other encyclopedias explain or show how to tie them. The how-to clause of WP:NOT is a special case of the "indiscriminate collection" section. Explaining in a knot article how to tie that knot is no more "indiscriminate" than having the article in the first place. The purpose of WP:NOT is to keep the project directed toward making an encyclopedia, not to destroy the usefulness of encyclopedic articles. Gazpacho 01:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys, this isn't a bureacracy. Don't worry about the possibility of someone messing up knot articles because of a weird policy interpretation until it happens. And certainly don't do it yourself in anticipation. Gazpacho 21:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I added Wikipedia:WikiProject_Knots#Writing about methods and usage to the draft guidelines. --Dfred 18:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Very bad idea to merge Fishing knots into Knots. Once the Fishing knots article is done it will be too large for merging, believe me. CyberAnth 10:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this sentence from the intro:
Knots have been the subject of interest both for their ancient origins, common use, and the mathematical implications of knot theory.
The knots in knot theory are different from the knots spoken of in this article. The mathematical "knots" refer to an abstract object that looks like a string joined at both ends. But the thing is that this article has no mention, and probably shouldn't have any mention, of such knots. (such knots are rarely used in practical knot tying). And the study of knot theory I'm pretty sure was not motivated by practical knot tying, and has nothing to do with it. Why mathematicians are interested in it I don't know, I think its something abstract, and was only called knot theory because of a very superficial resemblance. So I don't think knot theory is really at all related to this article, and the mention doesn't really belong. What does everyon think?Brentt 19:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I've added a section on "Physical theory of friction knots."--75.83.64.6 (talk) 01:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
The following is a list of the most usable knots. This list of knots are a simplification of all other existing survival knots and can be helpful in survival situations and in low-tech construction (eg in the developing world). The list is assembled by comparing the knots used in survival books as "The SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the Wild, in Any Climate, on Land or at Sea" by John Lofty Wiseman [1], "The Survival Handbook" by Peter Darman [2] and "Go Sailing" by Steve Sleight [3], aswell as a number of other survival books. Careful selection has been made by including knots for all purposes (stopper knots for permanent fixing, hitches for dragging loads, easy removable knots, ...), and by examening whether the knots are not too difficult to lay and whether they can be used in several situations. As the list is heavily simplified, it could help people remember them when it really counts (critical moments).
Please include this list into the article.
thanks;
KVDP (talk) 14:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
References
I learned a great knot at a military show in Ouagadougou, but have since forgotten it and wonder if anyone has any ideas as to what it might have been.
I used it to hang my mosquito net when sleeping outdoors biking cross-country. I could throw a loop over an out-of-reach branch, tie the knot, clinch it up, and in the morning simply pull on the free end of the now out-of-reach knot and the rope would fall to the ground. Very very handy. kwami (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The page says "Midshipman's Hitch (also known as a Tautline Hitch) Used when the length of the line needs to be adjusted" - However, Admirilaty Manual of Seamnship Vol I, HMSO, London, 1964 p. 160 states that it is a hitch for lashing a rope to a hook. Specific text says An alternative to the Blackwall Hitch, preferred if the rope is greasy. Made by first forming a Blackwell hitch and then taking the underneath part and placing over the bill of the hook. Diagram is included in the description. Certainly does not appear to be used for adjusting the lenght of rope! Farawayman (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Some knots covered in German wiki that we don't seem to have. Could simply translate and borrow the images:
They also have a lot of good photos, though some remain copyrighted. I've added some that were on Commons, but don't have time to move the rest over. kwami (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I think the 'Categories' of knots on this page is too cumbersome and can be greatly simplified as below. You'll recognize text copied from the article page and the few entries I've added by the lack of descriptive text.
Thanks to Des Pawson and Geoffrey Budsworth and various other authors (notably NOT Ashley) for the basic knots and decorative knots breakdown.
These strike me more in the ropework line than particularly knot-centric.
ForemastJack (talk) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Mention something about knots in nature. Jidanni (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I've deleted the last link:
A rope knot can be a thing of beauty too
Just because it's a picture of a knot, it doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Much less when it leads to a store where the photographer is selling it. It looks like an attempt to generate views/sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.68.90.97 (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Should this perhaps be merged with Knot? There's quite an overlap of information... --mordemur 06:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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I just added a bit about that and now see it also at Overhand_knot#In_nature. Should this be in this article, and can that section be expanded? Are primates or birds known to make knots? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
See also: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Animals making knots (permlink)
Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:52, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
The three terms are described in DOI: 10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2007.05.016 https://kundoc.com/pdf-how-capsizing-flipping-and-flyping-of-traditional-knots-can-result-in-new-endosc.html — Omegatron (talk) 21:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
History of knotting is very short, lightly referenced, and could be better put in context here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
A knot may also refer, in the strictest sense, to a stopper or knob at the end of a rope to keep that end from slipping through a grommet or eye.
What's the point of this? It seems to imply that these are not knots by some definition, but then fails to explain why or how at any point in the article. WP Ludicer (talk) 00:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
The entire content of this article is about intentional knots, but the dictionary definition of a knot applies to intentional, man-made knots, as well as unintentional knots, like a knot in your hair, natural knots, such as a knot in your muscles, or a knot in a tree, or symbolic uses, such as a knotty problem, or knots in your stomach.
If there's no other feedback, I will adjust the wording of the opening line to indicate that this is one usage of the word knot, so that it's not confused as the only meaning of the word knot.--Ryan (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanrands (talk • contribs) 21:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)