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Can I get Lir, Adam Carr, and ChrisG to agree that this page can now be unprotected? If so, then I will do it. -- Toby Bartels 18:57, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Given the comments on User talk:Adam Carr, I will not ask on his talk page, but will assume that he's OK with unprotection. -- Toby Bartels 19:26, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
And given the above, I unprotected the page. As far as I can tell, the current opening conforms pretty closely to Lir's proposal -- which I basically like (although I have made a couple of changes which I hope people will find innocuous) Slrubenstein
I was going to wait for Chris to reply; but since SLR has acted, I'm going off-line now. -- Toby Bartels 20:14, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There is some biblical evidence that John the Baptist was as ascetic. He ate locusts and wild honey in the wilderness (Matthew 3:1-6, Mark 1:6)
But people at the time contrasted Jesus with John, saying that Jesus "ate and drank".
--Uncle Ed 20:35, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Stephen, removal of the material posted does not imply any opinion of its quality as a presentation of the case for the uniqueness of Christ; rather, it is not appropriate content for the encyclopedia. I hope that the action is understandable in that light. Mkmcconn 22:38, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
This is not on the ascetic issue.
I think the second section , the Problem of Jesus, is fundamentally mistaken. There are not two kinds of knowledge, only one with more or less evidence supporting it. Because of the obscurity of the life of Jesus, an obscurity which he himself sought and cherished,evidence of his life has come to us in scanty form.
The Gospels are written records of people's memories, who themselves saw him at first hand, and there are other writings which are less clearly defined in their origin. This evidence is sufficient for non-secular historians, and most Christians. The article should therefore not misrepresent the status of people's faith as being mystical and unevidenced, when it clearly is evidence based. TonyClarke 23:27, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
What makes you believe that the authors of the Gospels presented first-hand accounts of Jesus? The texts do not reference the time or place of their authorship and the authors themselves remain anonymous. The authorship attributed to them is according to later tradition (formed as early as the 2nd century). And even that tradition does not accept that all four Evangelists met Jesus.
As you can see at best two of them are first-hand accounrs. And even them are harly considered to be contemporarie sources. They are believed to have been written decades after Jesus crucifiction. Personaly I believe he was a historical figure since both the Talmud and the Roman polemic writers do not doubt his existance but his morality. I think the second section is fine enough in presenting Jesus as a historical subject. I would however suggest expanding the fourth section and give a better presentation of the Gospels' accounts on our subject. As it is now they miss many of the interesting details contained in them. User:Dimadick.
Hi, I didn't actually say that the authors met Jesus. Its a bit more tenuous than that. The Gospels were written at a time when peopel who knew Jesus, or knew people who had known him, were beginning to die out. Considering that this was an occupied country and Jesus wasa poor wandering teacher, and that the country was ravaged by war shortly after his death, I think it is objectively remarkable that there is the range of largely consistent writing which has reached us today about his life.
LIr: thank your for responding, and for not undoing my reversion. The fact that secular historians do not belive in a magic god is not genuine information, it is a tautolgy, true by definition. If they did believe they would not be secular, if they are secular then they do not believe.
I am not trying to score points here, but we are all in the same boat and there is not _different _ evidence for Jesus, just more patchy and oral. But there _is_ evidence, accepted by a lot of people. TonyClarke 01:13, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the comment about secular historians and Jesus being a "magic" god has to do with anything. Christians do not believe in magic either. Magic is capricious. Miracle is purposeful. They are worlds apart.Pollinator 03:28, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)
From the article:
Even for a list of options, this seems rather over-precise. Is this from some sect's articles of faith, or is this someone's idea of a joke? -- 217.158.229.99 16:11, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Frankly this whole table is screwy. It doesn't accurately present what is believed. For example, Jesus' death date may be somewhere between AD 30 and AD 36, but as far as I know there is no reason why it should be AD33 rather than AD34, which isn't listed. Likewise it is generally thought that Jesus' ministry lasted around 3 yrs, and so the start of it would shift according to when you placed his death date. As far as I know the other events of Jesus ministry can be dated only by reference to his death date. Unless anyone knows better. DJ Clayworth 17:05, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
An example of why there are problems with this article. The 'life and teachings' section says that he learned carpentry, a fact for which there is not the tiniest shred of documentary evidence whatsoever, but then says that 'The nature of Jesus' spiritual teaching cannot be agreed', although Jesus' teachings and death are about the best documented parts of his life. DJ Clayworth 17:01, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I made two changes to the opening paragraph: first, I added "healer." I think most Christians view Jesus' work as a healer as pretty important to his work. I know that many historians consider it important, as the role of healer in Judea under Roman domination was well-established and for some historians important in making sense out of what Jesus actually did. I would have no objection if someone wanted to modify this term as "spiritual" or "faith" healer, although this may be an anachronistic distinction. I did delete the adjective "religious" modifying "teacher" because I do think it is anachronistic and out of place -- his teachings are also civil/social (indeed, even today many Jews hesitate to call Judaism a "religion"). In fact, one could argue for adding "social reformer" (or putative, or attempted, or something) to this indroductory characterization, as I think both religious Christians and secular historians would agree with this reading of his vocation. Slrubenstein
what do you mean by healer? Was he a doctor? Lirath Q. Pynnor
The term doctor doesn't work. It projects the concept of a modern physician back to Jesus' time. Healer is better, even if more ambiguous. There are many references to healing people.
Who did Jesus heal, and how? I don't think its very NPOV to define him as a "healer" without even defining what a "healer" is. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I don't think NPOV requires defining "healer," we can assume most readers have access to a dictionary. Since both Christians and secular scholars identify him as a healer, I think that is sufficient grounds for including "healer" as NPOV. Nevertheless, Lir is right that the term shouold be explained and developed; I am certain that there is space later in the article for a section on Jesus as healer, with some of the examples that Mkmcconn suggests, as well as some context drawn from secular/critical histories of Roman-dominated Judea, Slrubenstein
Re: Jesus as Carpenter, see Mark 6:2-3:
john 00:11, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
This paragraph was moved to a section on "Jewish Perspectives on Jesus:"
I object to the move or two reasons. first, the above is not about Jewish views about Jesus; it is about Jewish views during the 1st century about "the messiah." Second, it is not a strictly Jewish view: it is the view of (secular/critical) historians of Jewish views of the messiah during the 1st century. It is a view held by Jews before Jesus was even born; it is a view people held while Jesus was growing up -- in short, it provides importanthistorical context. I agree that the sentence that follows is appropriate to the section on "Jewish Perspectives on Jesus," but the above passage does not. I am pretty sure most if not all Christians would agree with the first two sentences, and I am virtually certain that all historians would agree with all three sentences. Slrubenstein
I reverted the insert, which labeled historians as "secular" and as "rationalists". That's unjustifiable; we have hundreds of entries mentioning the views of historians, scientists, etc. Should we include these scare quotes before all of their uses? Also, take note that in much of the very religious Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities, these words are often used as insults, and are very often used to delegitimize the views of those who are not true believers. I think that most English speaking readers are well aware that historians (and scientists) are not purveyors of religious dogma, and that their disciplines depend on critical, rationalist readings of historical texts (or experiments), and that they do not rely on mysticism or any other putative supernatural source of information. RK 00:28, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)
Excellent intro paragraph. I'd quibble with 'faith healer', but it's minor. I wish there was a way we could lock down the intro paragraph and get on with editing the rest now. DJ Clayworth 14:33, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE PREFACE SHOULD NOW BE LEFT ALONE, ADD YOUR NAME HERE:
IF NOT:
I removed this from the article:
I have no objection to returning it to the article -- as long as the "evidence" is provided/specified. Slrubenstein
The first link concludes by saying that Jesus may have died between 30 and 36, which is alreadyin the article; the second link provides what is explicitly a "best guess" (which in any event happens not to be during the Passover season!) This is speculation, not "evidence." Inany event, my main point is that no enclyclopedia article should have such an uninformative sencence as "Evidence points to ..." It has to review the evidence and discuss which scholars have debated over how to interpret it, and what are the different arguments for differrent interpretations. Slrubenstein
Is it really appropriate to include admitted "speculations" about Jesus being married, here? So some "scholars" apparently think this: is that relevant? Other "scholars" think that Jesus was a "magic mushroom" drug guru: that doesn't belong in this article either. Mkmcconn 03:26, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)