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This section of the article needs a lot more information and description as it's section has significantly less information than any other country's section. In addition, there are two sentences included in this section that lack a citation, which decreases the credibility of the article and wikipedia as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdubes827 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Can i create a new section that lists all the architectural features of islamic architecture that was invented during medieval islamic world or architectural inventions that are also found in other architecture but has origin in islamic architecture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:1484:A219:D2DC:4ABA:C0A2:76B6 (talk) 13:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
is it true that the first Skyscraper's in the world was built in Yemen ?. PilpelShata (talk) 13:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
@Johnbod: Oncemore, there seems to be an excessive use of images in the lead, and it is very unnecessary to include an abudance of images, especially when there is examples of architectonic principles displayed such as domes and arches, and adding more is redundant. Secondly, Hindu temple architecture has 3 images in the lead, how does that validate using 7 for islamic architecture? List of other religious architecture articles and the # of images in leads
The lead for Islamic architecture mentions "New architectural elements like cylindrical minarets, muqarnas, arabesque, multifoil were invented. The principal Islamic architectural types for large or public buildings are: the mosque, the tomb, the palace, and the fort. From these four types, the vocabulary of Islamic architecture is derived and used for other buildings such as public baths, fountains and domestic architecture." Thus it makes sense to display images that encompass many of these as they follow the lead. Secondly, there is already an example of Moorish architecture in one of the images, there is no need to add more hence why moving it to the Gallery makes more sense. I would be okay with keeping the example of Umayyad architecture, I did not read the description when I moved it. So there would be an example of Isfahani, Ottoman, Umayyad, Moorish and Abbasid architecture.
Furthermore, there is already an image of the same arches in the article under Characteristics > Spain (al-Andalus): File:Córdoba 2014.25.jpg|Arcades of the Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba
Most sections already have an abudance of images, the images should either be removed, moved under Gallery, or moved under the related examples within the article. To recap, the lead has more images than many religious architecture articles, some of the images are already within the article, and the images are redundant of Moorish architecture in the lead. ChaoticTexan (talk) 22:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
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The page needs a lot of long-term attention for improvements which I feel needs some collective input. But one issue I feel could be discussed sooner than later is how to treat the subject of the history of Islamic architecture on this page. Here are some suggestions/questions where I'd be interested to hear from other editors:
1. Move the "Early history" section to the beginning of the article? History sections, when they exist, usually come early in the article so as to provide the historical context for the rest (e.g. Romanesque architecture, Gothic architecture, Art Nouveau, etc). Currently the "Early history" section is stranded halfway in the article, which to me seems to undermine its purpose.
2. Expand the history section to cover the whole history of Islamic architecture? The "Early history" section currently covers topics up to the 10th century or so, plus an extra mention of Mamluk architecture for no clear reason, but then the rest of Islamic architecture history is left out. Maybe the "Regional styles" section implicitly covers later periods, but there's nothing explicit on the page which makes that clear to readers or editors. There are also important gaps in the article at the moment, such as Levantine architecture overall (e.g. Ayyubid, provincial Mamluk and Ottoman monuments, and other regional dynasties) – and until today, Seljuk architecture was missing too. This might be at least partly fixed by extending the history section so it covers all periods. (At which point the "Regional styles" section can presumably be used to focus and expand on specific styles without overburdening the history section, but that could be discussed too.)
3. Alternative: merge "history" and "regional styles" into several sections divided into broad historical periods? An alternative to having a separate stand-alone "history" section is to reorganize most of the information in "Early history" and "Regional styles" into new sections that cover different regional styles according to major periods. (E.g. the early period would cover mostly Umayyad and Abbasid architecture, while later periods would have subsections for Ottoman, Mughal, Iranian, Indonesian, Moroccan, etc.) This is a fairly traditional type of presentation used in some architecture articles (e.g. you can see what I mean at Baroque architecture, Modern architecture, Architecture of India, etc) and in many published overview books (e.g. Ettinghausen et al 2001, Blair and Bloom 1994, among many others).
Obviously I'll be happy to help with any changes if there's agreement on any of these issues. (PS: And I have other questions about minor elements of the page, but I'll put them in separate talk sections to avoid getting messy.) Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
This sub-article under Characteristics seems unnecessary, and it does not add any thing new to the article. Should it be merge/remove? Indusstar (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Do editors have a preference or an opinion on what size the pictures of galleries should be set at by default?
Most of the previous galleries on this page have their pictures set to 180px. I've added some galleries since then but I've left them at the default size (120px or unspecified). I don't think there's a particular policy for this elsewhere (correct me if I'm wrong). For galleries with lots of pictures, 180px seems to take up a lot of space (depending on your screen/display size), but also makes thumbnails easier to see. So if editors have a preference, I can standardize the new and old galleries accordingly. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
The lead needs more work but I want to note that this statement looks doubtful or not clearly supported: "The principal Islamic architectural types for large or public buildings are: the mosque, the tomb, the palace, and the fort. From these four types, the vocabulary of Islamic architecture is derived and used for other buildings such as public baths, fountains and domestic architecture." Of the two sources that come after, one is incomplete (it has a last name, a page number, and nothing else) and the other is not a reliable source and doesn't say this in particular. I think a claim that there are only 4 basic types of buildings and that other building types are derived from them is the kind of thing that needs more serious support from sources, and shouldn't be in the lead until then. I personally doubt that this is a mainstream academic view.
So instead, I'm going to replace this statement with a suggested simpler outline of the general building types relevant to Islamic architecture. We don't quite have this information spelled out anywhere else in the page yet either, so that may something to consider adding in the main body of the article. In the meantime, the lead can at least link readers to these other relevant pages so that some of the important terminology (e.g. madrasa, hammam, etc) is established at the start of the article. R Prazeres (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
The reference to Arabia in the lead did not require a source because it is discussed in detail with sources elsewhere in the article. Why does "Arabian" uniquely require more sources in the lead but the references to Roman, Mesopotamian influence etc do not!? That’s why it was a “minor edit”. Because it didn’t add anything new! Of course I could just provide the sources and move on but there is a deeper issue here and if we don't address it now it will derail any progress we can make on improving this article.
The study of Islamic architecture was heavily influenced by the work of K. A. C. Creswell in his book Early Muslim architecture (1932). You can read about how his extremist view was not only wrong and premature but had long-lasting effects on the entire field: King, G. R. D. (1990). CRESWELL'S APPRECIATION OF ARABIAN ARCHITECTURE, Muqarnas Online, 8(1), 94-102. doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/22118993-90000268
Some important quotes to highlight:
“Despite a growing body of knowledge about pre-Islamic Arabian architecture in the 1960’s, Creswell nevertheless summarized his assessment of Arabia in an immoderate subheading, “Architecture non-existent in Arabia at this time,” by which he meant the time of the Prophet muhammad.” “Creswell was far too extreme on this issue. He was in no position to make such a definitive statement, however, and was premature in reaching such a judgment. It is all the more regrettable because his work has become the core for the study of early Islamic architecture, and his views about the genesis of Islamic art and architecture has developed into a canon of basic knowledge on the subject.”
“The overwhelmingly influential position of Creswell’s work and opinions has affected subsequent writing to a profound extent.”
“If Creswell does not deserve criticism for his neglect of the largely unrecorded Islamic monuments of Arabia, his failure to consider the literature on pre-Islamic buildings in the peninsula is quite extraordinary.”
Another excellent article dealing with this specific issue begins with:
"The influence of Creswell’s teaching is, however, so far-reaching and still shapes opinions to such a degree that it will be some time before the significance of the Arabian Peninsula as a cultural zone in pre-Islamic and Islamic times will be appreciated. We find this theory repeated in other areas of research, too, that it was only with the coming of Islam and “new” contacts to neighboring advanced civilizations that culture began to take hold in the Arabian Peninsula."
And it concludes:
"[Arabian] Urban architecture and religious buildings remained true to their existing traditions, that is to say, that evidently the whole culture remained independent and was merely influenced in certain forms by exchanges of ideas and by imports. The picture of the Arabian Peninsula traditionally drawn by Orientalist history can be seen to require re-examination in many respects. In order to understand Islam, however, it is necessary to be acquainted with its place of origin and to grasp its history."
Finster, B. (2009). " Arabia In Late Antiquity: An Outline Of The Cultural Situation In The Peninsula At The Time Of Muhammad". In The Qurʾan in Context. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004176881.i-864.21
"Mosque (Masjid) is a pre-Islamic Arabian word. It is attested in inscriptions at least hundreds of years before Islam. Mihrab is also an Arabian word with Islamic mihrabs being a unique development in their design and significance. The word mihrab itself has a complex pre-islamic and folk history. These and other examples show that many of the forms and terms developed by Islam with precise connotations in the new faith and the new civilization ahead existed in pre-Islamic Arabia."
Ettinghausen, R., Grabar, O., & Jenkins, M. (2001). Islamic art and architecture 650-1250. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press. p. 5.
South Arabian influence, Ghassanid influence and west Arabian influence on “early Islamic architecture” is already discussed in this article with all the necessary sources. So there was no need for more anyway.
In Arabs: A 3,000-Year History of Peoples, Tribes and Empires, the author states:
"…subsequent historians have been equally and less excusably islamocentric. An academic disconnect between Islamic and pre-Islamic studies has meant that most scholars do not see the dots that make the bigger picture, let alone try to join them up. When we do take that longer, wider view, we find that Islam was not something that shot up suddenly in Mecca; it is a vast, slow growth whose roots lie deep in time and all over the peninsula."
MACKINTOSH-SMITH, T. (2019). Arabs: A 3,000-Year History of Peoples, Tribes and Empires. NEW HAVEN; LONDON: Yale University Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctvd1c99p. p. 54.
For people on the other side (pre-Islamic studies/Arabists) this disconnect is very bizarre. It’s like removing references to Greece in an article about Hellenistic culture... and then demanding more sources at every (((redundant))) mention of the word “Greece”! SHM616 (talk) 15:20, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
1. The Umayyad dynasty adpoted the Medina mosque plan, it just so happens that my sources doesn’t say that precisely.
"As far as later architecture is concerned, the major contribution of early Islam in Arabia was the development of a specifically Muslim masjid"
Ettinghausen, R., Grabar, O., & Jenkins, M. (2001). Islamic art and architecture 650-1250. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press.
"it is clear that many subsequent mosques, including the early great Umayyad mosque of Damascus that was first to reproduce the Prophet’s model at a monumental scale, reveal similar planning and spatial characteristics."
Cosmology and architecture in premodern islam an architectural reading of mystical ideas Akkach, Samer. State University of New York Press, Albany. P 194-195.
"When used in large numbers, the colonnaded grid created a powerful effect resulting from the direction less occupied by columns. The plan originated from the house and mosque that the Prophet Muhammad built in Medina"
Museum With No Frontiers. (2000). The Umayyads: The rise of Islamic art. Beirut, Lebanon: Arab Institute for Research and Publishing. Again there is no need for an exhaustive list here.
2. The second quote is an unambiguous statement from a reliable modern authoritative sources and you cannot somehow separate “early Islamic era” from early Islam.
3. This page doesn’t discuss and support my claim because this page is of a questionable quality and contains many unsourced claims and original research and reflects the old outdated orientalist views that have been overturned, so yes it should change.
4. The relationship between Islamic architecture and Byzantine/Persian has no effect here. Again you must take in consideration that all modern scholars emphasize the previously unrecognized Arabian influences, There is (again) a shocking disconnect between Islamic studies and Arabian studies and if I need an exhaustive list of sources and direct quotes for that I will provide it.
4. You accuse me of only having one or two sources which is false.
"The roots of of monumental architectural tradition during the Early Islamic period were firmly grounded in the architectural, religious, socio-political and cultural precedents in the region of his birth (Muʿāwiya) and early life in the Ḥijāz and South"
- St. Laurent, B. (2020). From Arabia to Bil?d al-Sh?m: : Mu??wiya’s Development of an Infrastructure and Monumental Architecture of Early Umayyad Statehood. Journal of Islamic Archaeology, 6(2), 153–186. https://doi.org/10.1558/jia.40700
"The foundations of the “new” Islamic art were painting, sculpture, and above all architecture, and all of these were well established in the cultural life of the peninsula."
Flood, Finbarr Barry; Necipoğlu, Gülru (2017). A Companion to Islamic Art and Architecture. Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 84. ISBN 9781119068662
This isn’t confined to Arabia and its a unequivocal general statement about early Islamic architecture.
"the “Arab plan,” with court and hypostyle prayer hall, became a dominant functional type"
A Cultural History of the Arabic Language. By Sharron Gu. p. 166.
"A particularly rich repertoire of Arab myths and memories, as well as architecture preceded the appearance of the first Islamic monument."
Nuha N. N. Khoury. (1993). The Dome of the Rock, the Kaʿba, and Ghumdan: Arab Myths and Umayyad Monuments. Muqarnas, 10, 57–65. https://doi.org/10.2307/1523172
"J. Allan's revised edition of K.A.C. Creswell's A Short Account of Early Muslim Architecture first characterized pre-Islamic Arabian architecture as consisting largely of mud huts, a point that he later revoked. Other colleagues were quick to join the criticism of this controversial, wide-spread but obsolete teaching opinion"
The consensus you are insisting on is obsolete!
"Such was the perspective power of the “Arab plan” that its influence permeated mosque architecture in the non-Arab lands too. It would therefore be an artificial exercise to consider the development of the Iranian mosque in isolation, the more so as many early mosques in Iran (Bishapur, Siraf, Susa, Yazd) were of Arab plan. Some also had the square minarets which were an early feature of that plan (Damghan, Siraf)."
Baer, Eva. Ayyubid Metalwork with Christian Images. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1989.
"four basic types of mosques have arisen in western and central Asia and in North Africa: the Arab hypostyle mosque, the Persian four-iwan mosque, the Indian three dome mosque and the Turkish central-dome mosque." Stegers, R. (2008). Sacred buildings: A design manual. Basel: Birkhäuser.
"The first palaces built in North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia under Islamic rule combined elements drawn from the earlier palatine traditions of pre-Islamic Arabia, Sassanian Iran and the Late Antique Mediterranean world."
(2009). Bloom, J., & Blair, S. (Eds.), The Grove Encyclopedia of Islamic Art and Architecture. : Oxford University Press. Retrieved 14 Sep. 2021
"Extensive use of stucco decoration is a distinguishing feature of Arab architecture."
Perrot, G., & Chipiez, C. (1892). History of art in Persia. London: Chapman and Hall.
5. There are many unsourced claims in this article and undue weight is given to minority opinions which I will change with sources but they permeate this highly biased article.
6. You cannot keep referring to the outdated “consensus” that is at best highly questionable in current research.
7. Isn’t disregarding Arabia as an important region in the history of Islam in violation of NPOV? Other parts of this article contain shockingly inaccurate unsourced claims and clearly pushing POV that directly goes against the actual science. SHM616 (talk) 09:53, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
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Hi Borneo45, your edits are well-intentioned and could be more useful elsewhere, but they conflict with WP:NPOV (the neutral point of view policy) for this article. They're aimed at promoting the role of pre-Islamic Arabian/Arab influences in one way or another, despite the fact that most experts of Islamic architecture agree and in many cases explicitly state that this role was very limited by comparison with other influences. I won't repeat them here, but you can read the sources cited (with quotes) more than once already in this article.
Regarding your more architecture-specific edits, the latest ones you made in this edit are again overstating the point without good reason: the Hira palaces you mention, for example, are based on Sasanian models, as Shahid (the cited author) also explains, though you've omitted this context. Even if you added this context, it therefore doesn't say anything that isn't already said directly. Most summaries on Islamic architecture or even on Abbasid architecture (for example) barely mention Lakhmid influence, if at all. Also, your point in the same edit about South Arabian architecture being the "immediate predecessor of early Umayyad architecture" is not supported by the source you cited, which does not in fact say this, and is disproportionate to the minor relevant observations that the author does make in that chapter. So even adding "according to some scholars" is misleading. It doesn't respect WP:NPOV, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, or WP:FRINGE (all roughly related policies around presenting balanced and verifiable information).
I've already used the gist of your first additions and sources to add an entire paragraph (in this edit) about the Lakhmids and Ghassanids and their potential contributions relevant to this topic, with more context. By comparison, far more important influences on Islamic architecture are still only very briefly summarized in the history section. We could chose to expand the history section as a whole to make room for more, but this article is already very long (as mentioned in another discussion above), there is already a separate section on "Influences" further below, AND there are separate sub-articles for most of these topics (e.g. Umayyad architecture, Abbasid architecture, not to mention the Lakhmids article itself, etc). The text of the article is always subject to revision of course, but as an overview article it needs to be balanced and not become a repository for arguments and examples in favour of one POV at the expense of mainstream scholarship. Detail and wording revisions aside, this particular issue is now well-covered already.
My recommendations to you, if you want to continue: you could bring this kind of information to some of the relevant subarticles I mentioned above, where there's plenty of room to expand, or you could add them in a new subsection in the "Influences" section further down in the article. You still need to place your claims in context and provide sources that support them directly (not indirectly), as always. R Prazeres (talk) 23:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
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I've been wondering what to do about this section for a while and I think we should consider removing it altogether, with the caveat that we can move any useful sourced content to either other sections or other appropriate articles. Here are some of the issues that stand out to me:
I'm leaving this as an open question to everyone for feedback. I may try to keep revising some of the material in the meantime. R Prazeres (talk) 07:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)