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A summary of this article appears in Feminism. |
Material from ifeminists.net is used with permission of the author and a link to ifeminists.net has been restored. I've reverted to a previous version due to vandalism.
Whoever removes things from this page, stop it. Do not distort facts, you only get us angry. Please read the Wikipedia NPOV policy, because you most definately have problems following it. For example:
Trying to make a subject impossible to juxtapose to other subjects is propaganda, not encyclopedic.
Nixdorf 06:04, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
How is this distinct from anarcha-feminism?
User:200.69.166.68 keeps putting "In the rest of the world individualist feminists are anti-capitalists and part of anarcha-feminism" onto the bottom of this article. Not only is this unsourced, but it appears contrary to the assertions in the rest of this article. I've left 2 notes on their talk page, without success. AnAn 03:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've asked for and received (in Spanish) a website about "women creating". I've heard of them, but am not sure about their exact politics. Anyone speak Spanish? [1] and [2]. If these check out, I was thinking of inserting something like. "Outside the US, there are several individualist feminist groups which are also anti-capitalist", and providing these websites as support. AnAn 03:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Most of anarchists women in México, Spain, Chile and Bolivia (that are the feminist that i known) are radical individualists. They continue the way of thinking of Ezra Heywood and Voltairine de Cleyre (free love, etc)and the radicalism of Emma Goldman or the Mujeres Libres group (Spain). They are filosofical individualists and gender activists. You can see that a lot in anarcha-feminists groups.
For us who live out of U.S is very extrange that individualists feminists in U.S are not anarchists or anti-capitalists!
In Europe and Latin america (and i believe the rest of the world) a radical individualist is an anarchist an obviously an anti-capitalists. The same for individualists women.
For us, an individualist anarchist don´t support any domination (bosses included), and capitalism is the rule of the bosses. So an individualist is anti-capitalist.
--200.69.166.68 02:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
--200.69.166.68 02:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
We know a little about Wendy McElroy but we see her like a liberal (that thing that in U.S is Known as Libertarian). And Libertarians is what in Latinamerica we know as Neoliberalism.
All anarchists are oppose to Neoliberalism, so we oppose to Wendy McElroy.
What you name as Individualist feminism we name it Liberal feminist and we don´t related it individualists anarchists, so we don´t related it with Ezra Heywood or Voltairine De Cleyre. Individualists anarchists are anti-capitalists, liberals are capitalists. See : Feminismo liberal (Liberal feminism) or Libertarian (capitalists sense) feminism.
I suggest you to change the name or the article to Liberal or Libertarian feminism (or ifeminism) and use Individualist feminist for the anticapitalist individualist feminists of the rest of the world. (That is most bigger and with more people than U.S.)--200.69.166.68 02:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
--200.69.166.68 02:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
You do not have a copyright (pardon the expression) on the title "individualist feminism." You do not seem to know the history of individualist feminism in the US or you would not try to usurp the title for yourself. The US has a long history of individualist feminism just as it has a long history of philosophical individualism. See Joan Kennedy Taylor's book Reclaiming the Mainstream: Individualist Feminism Rediscovered. You apparently know little about the philosophy of individualism if you do not understand why it is compatible with free enterprise (what you call "capitalism"). You have no right to ask that North American individualist feminists like Wendy McElroy and myself not use this term just because you don't like our views. We would not do this to you. Speaking for myself, I do not think such intolerance serves feminism very well.
SPresley 08:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)Sharon Presley
is what this article should be called. Libertarians are pro-capitalism, not anarchists.
A response to the above anonymous comment:
You are wrong, whoever you are. I have been an anarchist for almost 40 years and I am also a libertarian. Just because you don't like our brand of anarchism doesn't mean you get to redefine the terms. Opposition to the coercive rule of a monopoly state is what defines anarchism, not the economic system. You may believe that free enterprise is coercive but we do not agree. Please note that NO libertarian or individualist anarchist advocates the kind of state corporate capitalism that we have today. THAT is NOT free enterprise.
Perhaps you should try reading the great anarchist feminist Voltairine de Cleyre, who said: "There is nothing un-Anarchistic about [Individualism, Communism, Socialism, or Mutualism] until the element of compulsion enters and obliges unwilling people to remain in a community whose economic arrangements they do not agree to."
If you tried to force me to be in the economic system you like or prevented me from peacefully living in the system I prefer, than you would not be an anarchist.
Voltairine also said: "Anarchism means freedom to the soul as well as the body--in every aspiration, every growth...Each choose that method which expresses your selfhood best, and condemn no man because he expresses his Self otherwise."
I choose free enterprise and private property but I would never force that choice on anyone else. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy.
Sharon Presley [not afraid to be nonanonymous]—Preceding unsigned comment added by SPresley (talk • contribs) 08:55, 29 July 2006
responses to all:
Some of the above are not about improving the article (and thus don't belong on an article's talk page) and some may be more relevant to other articles. If any are meant to be future additions, sources will be needed. Nick Levinson (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
So many crappy libertarian articles, so little time to clean them up!! Carol Moore 05:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Yes it does. I'll try to come back and work on it soon because it is really incomplete. There are many brands of individualist feminism besides that of McElroy. I tried to add a bit more tonight. Added mention of several organizations and used JK Taylor's history of individualism feminism as a citation. I will add more from that book soon.
Emmaspooner (talk) 05:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to include the anarchism template here? I would personally argue that it's not, that libertarian feminism is not inherently anarchistic, nor inherently statist; that it, like libertarianism in general, bridges the gap between minarchism and anarchism. In the same way the anarchism template wouldn't be included on the libertarianism page, neither too would I argue it should be included here.
Sincerely,
Alex Peak
Allixpeeke (talk) 03:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Nice meeting you here also! As you can see above, this has been debated. If there was a Limited Government category then both could be inserted making it balanced. Someone probably should start that category. I think the bigger problem is lack of references for various claims. I especially don't know/can't remember what differences there might between ALF and other contemporary individuals feminists so unless someone references that soon I'm going to just put them all together. See my post directly above.
RE: this edit and the several reverts/restorations before it. Edit warring is bad juju! Mikkalai's point is sound: the problem with the text is that the part in parentheses is not supported by the reference attached to it (which simply discusses anarcho-feminism is; here's a direct link to the ref on Google books if anyone wants to read it). If you want to make a claim about the relative popularity of I-F vs. A-F in different places then that needs to be supported. The link given does not do that. -- Hux (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
While I think mention of the ifeminists website would be a good idea here there needs to be third party reliable sources used to create a piece for it. The material added by User:Prof Carol Williams while informative is not sourced to any third party reliable sources and contains what we call "original research in its last line (the bit about the "futuristic" sound of the term). Before re-adding this please rewrite it in accordance with Wikipeida's sourcing and attribution requirements. Thanks--Cailil talk 13:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I put in WP:POV because a lot of (unsourced) but somewhat accurate material about the history of individualist feminism was removed and this has become all about more recent McElroy/Sommers developments, ones not necessarily embraced by all libertarian or individualist feminists. I hate to take time to do this, but obviously I'll have to work to include the much longer history of individualist feminism before McElroy/Sommers started obsessing about how much modern feminism oppresses men. Meanwhile please leave in the tag. Carol Moore 18:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
PS. If you want to do some research to beef up the article, go back to an earlier version for some important omitted material that might need more sourcing. Also see the Libertarianism to women page. Carol Moore 19:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
I've started putting together good sources to make this article more accurate, so that it doesn't just reflect the objectives and right wing conservative views of a couple feminists or make all libertarian and even all individualist feminists seem to support those ideas. One problem is that Wendy McElroy did some good research in her earlier days (though I'll have to read some of it to see if it was more biased than I realized when first read 25 years ago) but the last ten years she has tended to focus on attacking the statist feminist movement. Many libertarian and individualist feminists might disagree with the statist means but support the actual goals of statist feminists. They can, for example, support affirmative action and even quotas in government and voluntary ones in the rest of society; they can support restructuring the political system the way women might prefer it - ie with emphasis on local government and minimal or no militaries (which are just big patriarchal prove your manhood games. Don't get me started)... Carol Moore 12:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
If you were to say that individualist feminist Wendy McElroy agrees with Sommers (who is not individualist or libertarian feminist that is so far proven) about gender feminism then you can make specific critiques (short so not WP:UNDUE) of all three. But this sentence you use as a reference: "Sommers's book is a work of neither dispassionate social science nor reflective scholarship; it is a conservative polemic. Sommers focuses... on the feminists and cultural liberals against whom she has a long-standing animus... This intemperate book is a hindrance to such conversation." doesn't support this statement you make "Scholars and critics have commented that the label "feminist" is often used cynically in this context, as a way to co-opt general feminism rather than actually be part of feminism.[4][5]" And you don't even tell us which of the six 8 minute audio tapes or the couple of transcripts (which one must pay for) support it. So it's both WP:synthesis and not easily verifiable sourcing, when you could make it easier. I'm just talking wiki policy here, not necessarily disagreeing with your overall thrust. Carol Moore 13:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Edited page to note that De Cleyrne eventually endorsed leftist economics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.49.34 (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Usually, a book index is not a source. That occurs regarding Sommers in the following sentence in the article: "Wendy McElroy and Christina Hoff Sommers define individualist feminism in opposition to what they call political or gender feminism.[9][10]" I discovered this when searching in amazon.com (the search-inside-book feature). However, it is possible that different versions of the book (hardcover, paperback, etc.) have different paginations, so perhaps p. 320 is appropriate. If someone has it, please check and edit as needed. If the citation is already correct, please add the book's version (hardcover, paperback, etc.) to the citation, to prevent a similar doubt in the future. Nick Levinson (talk) 23:59, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
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This opening sentence is pretty confusing. Are these the same things or different things? Shouldn't a clear synonym ALWAYS be grouped with its cognate term?
If it is not the same thing and we are going to discuss it in the same article as a group then the title should reflect that, as individualist and libertarian feminism or something like that.
That's a bit of a mouthful though. Why don't we just have a page explaining what libertarian feminism is on its own? If there are links between the two then that can be explained on each page.
Is every individualist a libertarian? Is every libertarian an individualist? If individualism and libertarianism are separate, why is this merged? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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Ifeminism is a libertarian concept, why tarry it with the word conservative? Rjedgar (talk) 12:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
The current short description Movements for gender equality that emphasizes freedom of choice and autonomy of each person is excessively long. The description has to be just a few words preferably. ToniTurunen (talk) 22:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Hi all, I deleted the "History in the United States" section of this article. It was not about individualist feminism, but feminism in general. When it did allude to individualist feminism or libertarianism, the citations were not sufficient. If this content is restored, I think it belongs over at Feminism in the United States. See the diff of my edit here. Wracking 💬 04:13, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Overall, if these people are truly especially notable in individualist feminism, they should naturally show up in the History section. Wracking 💬 05:17, 8 April 2023 (UTC)