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I've taken the phrase 'barbarians for the time being' out because it makes no sense. There is no barbarian 'lifestyle'. The Caledonians chose not to be Roman and the Romans defined them as barbarians. That's all there is to be said. Rcpaterson 03:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. Under "Cultural Pursuits..." it says "Hadrian drew the whole Empire into his mourning, making Antinous the last new god of antiquity". I didn't change it in case I misunderstood something but what is written can't be what is meant. Many, many more men are deified in 'antiquity' including Emperor Hadrian himself as noted later in this very article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.149.245.2 (talk) 13:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
He was born in Italica in a place near the adriatic see , then very young he moved in spain with trajan when he was governor of spain...
What is the source for this statement? Italica is nowhere near the Adriatic. It also isn't identical with Seville, which the article currently has as his birthplace (quite erroneously, I would think). I repeat from 'Where was he born?' above - Italica was his family's home town, not necessarily his own birthplace. The best sources suggest he was born at Rome.Cenedi 00:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I've rejigged the heading paragraph and the start of 'Early Life' to try and lay this matter to rest - ie that Hadrian was born in Rome, where his father, as a senator, resided most of the time - but I have no faith this will be the end of the matter!Cenedi 13:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should assume that they were lovers, there is no concrete proof, and if they were it would have been known and in the open. Pederasty was quite well-known at the time and in practice, there was no need for Hadrian to hide it. A quick read through the pederasty section of Wiki will show anyone that their relation did not seem like an amorous one cause it does not fall within the usual rules. But the fact that he deified him is sort of suspicious as well. Antinous was considerd to be the most attractive male to have ever lived so who knows... MarcusAntoninus 17:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Modern scholarship has stopped pretending that they were not lovers. The scandal was not that they were, but that Hadrian wished to continue the relationship once Antinous reached the age of maturity (Birley 2-3, 158 184-185, 241) --Nantonos 09:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll check back in seven day and see if the article deserves the GA promotion. Best regards, Eurocopter tigre 12:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on the Second Roman-Jewish war and the role of Hadrian in it by combining the material already present with material from the Wikipedia site on the Roman-Jewish war, lightly edited to make it consistent. RFB —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 05:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
We wasn't. That honour goes to Nero (54-68), many of whose images - on coins and in statuary - show him sporting a beard (of the 'chinstrap' variety). He too was something of a philhellene. I have edited accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.82.115 (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I'll add the original Latin name of the Hadrian's Wall: Vallum Hadriani. Fleabox (talk) 17:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The Latin name of the wall is unknown (see the discussion on the Hadrian's Wall page). In any case, it's unlikely to have borne the builder's cognomen (Hadrianus), but his nomen gentilicium (Aelius), as this was the usual Roman naming practice for building projects (although there are a few exceptions).82.44.82.115 (talk) 08:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
In 1776, Edward Gibbon called Hadrian's epoch the "happiest era of human history". I found a good place where to insert this. Fleabox (talk) 17:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- I am sorry, but I believe that it is not so. The Gibbon's famous quotation, in his chapter I, does not refer to Hadrian's reign concretly, but to the almost totality of the 2nd. century AD, exempting Commodus, be read here. I think you can anyway adapt it, or even to introduce the quote. --Alicia M. Canto (talk) 21:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
You are totally right - thanks! What about this modification: In 1776, he stated that Hadrian's epoch was part of the "happiest era of human history". Fleabox (talk) 19:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Your welcome. Well, it would be much more exact, certainly. --Alicia M. Canto (talk) 07:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is the info about his personal life just mixed in with his career instead of having it's own section, like with most articles on famous people? I could not find his marriage, mention of why he had no children (one assumes, since the family tree indicates only an adopted "son" to secure the succession) and Antinous was written about under the heading "Cultural pursuits and patronage." For someone who is researching bisexual people in history, this article does not make that info very accessible, unlike many other articles. Sheela —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.219.250 (talk) 17:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC) ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.219.250 (talk) 18:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
The name PLOTINA is written in a wrong style. I tried to fix it but couldn't reach the desired effect. Could anyone please help? Thank you.--Broletto (talk) 09:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I think this picture should be removed. This article is not a sex-specific article in the same way that Erotic art in Pompeii and Herculaneum is. I don't think this erotic picture belongs in this article any more than a picture of Henry VIII in bed with Anne Boleyn or George Washington doing it with Martha belongs on theirs. Mlouns 17:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This section is really inaccurate: the purpose of Hadrian's wall was not, as is popularly believed, to safeguard the empire against attacks from Caledonia. This can be readily seen by the existence of trading posts that allowed unhindered access through the wall, along with the settlements that sprang up around them (see the first episode of Simon Schama's A History of Britain). The true purpose of the wall was to define the Roman Empire's geographical limits, which had never been previously done. It was basically Hadrian's way of saying, "this is as far as we'll go", and marked a transition from centuries of progressive conquest to the beginning of the empire's decline.
Can someone with more specific knowledge on this update the article? I don't have the sources or experience to really do it justice. -- Hux 02:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree - it's most unsatisfactory. The section gives the impression that there had been no military activity in Caledonia prior to Hadrian's visit to Britannia, and that he abandoned the idea of "conquest" north of the Solway/Tyne isthmus in favour of building an impregnable barrier. Hadrian was reversing the misguided and unsustainable expansionist policies of previous emperors, retrenching within clearly defined borders, to best use the available military manpower.
Not only that, the section ties itself in knots. Firstly the wall was to be made of stone as there was "a lack of suitable wood in the area" (the largest forests in England are just north of the Wall, and it was even more heavily wooded in Hadrian's time), and then a substantial part was to be built of turf, as there was a lack of building stone! This ignores the fact that the turf wall and mile-castles had substantial wooden palisades on top, and that it was rebuilt in stone later!
It then goes on to suggest a lack of stone resulted in the narrowing of the wall in the eastern sector! Surprising then, that large 19th and 20th century quarries were dug, destroying whole sections of the Wall, and that the Roman architects were so dim as to plan a construction they couldn't complete with the materials available. Most of this section is conjecture, and poor conjecture at that. Rambler24 (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Just above is an argument saying he wasn't born in Rome. Earlier today -- further up, another editor points to a book which says he must have been born in Rome. The article needs to reflect the dispute, it can't state where he was born, only that there is uncertainty, the locations suggested, and, attributed, the arguments for and against them, without trying to come to a conclusion. Dougweller (talk) 17:09, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Agreed Augustun84 (talk) 05:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Aside from the wall, Hadrian's relationship with Antinous is what he is best known for, both today and in ancient times. The cult of Antinous was one of the most popular ancient cults, with his bust a very common archeological find.[1] Googling Hadrian homosexual yields a staggering number hits, presumably because of this relationship. The issue certainly deserves a mention in the lede.
"Hispano" is the pre-Roman population in Spain. But here we don't mean that Hadrian was mixed race, but only that he came from Spain. "Spain" is just the anglicized form of Hispania, even if the borders are not quite the same. (After all, what country's borders have stayed the same over a 2,000 year period?) Kauffner (talk) 07:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
There is nothing in the lede currently about Hadrian's building projects in Athens. In fact, the lede is full of trivia, especially the third paragraph, like you said. We could take out that paragraph, add the Athens projects and the Bar Kochba revolt, as well as Antinous, and easily stay under 500 words. A published summary of Hadrian's life typically mentions Antinous -- and that's what the lede should do. See here, here, here and even an article entitled "Hadrian the gay emperor" for examples. There is also an enormous amount of writing on the Web about homosexuality that uses Hadrian as an object lesson, as least if the results of this Google search are any indication: homosexuality Hadrian Kauffner (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean? Stoicism and Epicureanism were often opposing each other (on philosophy of nature, on ethics derived from it, etc.) Daizus 13:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This section perhaps needs some clarification
the building work on hadrians wall started in 0122, not 0112, i found out in a reliable history book.
That diagonal earlobe creases – a characteristic associated with coronary heart disease is practically medical urban legend. I'm not sure it fits here in wikipedia article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.198.40 (talk) 12:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Whoever posted that was thinking of Caligula. Or it's just vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.234.234 (talk) 05:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
As the previous section makes clear, Hadrian's relationship with Antinous attracted an enormous amount of attention, both in ancient and modern times. I hardly think that adding a few sentences to explain its context and significance constitutes WP:UNDUE or WP:COATRACK. Yourcenar's book is easily the best-known work on Hadrian and it has quite a reputation, as you can see from this review. There is no issue of using it as a source, but merely informing the reader that Yourcenar's view of Hadrian has been influential. Kauffner (talk) 06:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
It seems that a "citation needed template" affects the fact of Italica location close to Sevilla (Spain). I think it is a so obvious and well-known fact as to render any citation unnecessary.--Auró (talk) 20:45, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
In the hadrians wall article it suggests that the wall was planned and the construction began before Hadrian ruled in that area as - iT is contradicting to say Hadrian built the wall - If you have proof that Hadrian actually built the wall please cite your quotation or display evidence. A suggestion would be to rephrase this statement... perhaps that "the wall was built during the ruling of Hadrian?"
This is nonsense: "the construction began before Hadrian ruled in that area" What does this mean? The wall was built during his reign, under his orders. He built it. Fatidiot1234 (talk) 04:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
See Talk:Bar Kokhba's revolt for the corresponding discussion. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 01:21, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Deleted this entire section - it anachronistically describes Hadrian as making it clear he was 'gay', a category that didn't exist at the time, and its only source is a newspaper article in the Independent. There ought to be a section on Hadrian's sexuality, but one with proper scholarly refs and an understanding of the different sexualities of the ancient world. 82.31.67.51 (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
You're right. All that's needed is the Antinous section, which has been a long battle against the neo-Victorians who somehow think it's improper to suggest that H&A got it on. A "Sexuality" section can only contain half-baked psychologizing based on exiguous evidence: OR. Fatidiot1234 (talk) 03:43, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
This article uses "BCE"/"CE" already. It would be preferred that you keep it this way, out of respect for the Nerva-Antonine Dynasty since they had no affiliation, or liking to Christianity. If you object, please provide a valid reason as to why. Lupus Bellator (talk) 20:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Elizabeth Speller, while an accomplished novelist, was certainly not the first to remark on the complex character of Hadrian that comes down to us from ancient works. The difficulty of categorizing Hadrian as a "good" or "bad" emperor, even by ancient biographical sources that often had a penchant for moralizing caricature, was remarked upon as far back as Gibbon. See Gibbon's Decline and Fall (Methuen ed. 1909, p. 83) "Hadrian was, by turns, an excellent prince, a ridiculous sophist, and a jealous tyrant." While I have nothing against Mrs. Speller, the appearance should not be given that that observation was her original creation. Having the article read "according to Elizabeth Speller.." does give the impression of originality. Seeing that Mrs. Speller's authority on the subject rests on her novel "Following Hadrain" which is itself somewhat of a derivative work (of Marguerite Yourcenar's "Memoirs of Hadrian", an altogether superior work), I am hesitant to award to Mrs. Speller the credit for the observation.
Unless someone can persuade me otherwise, I will change the article to something more reasonable towards all of the Hadrian scholarship that has come before Mrs. Speller's time.
Why is this person listed as a source along with page numbers but no reference to what those page numbers refer to. Someone's name and a page number with no work to tie the number to, hardly qualifies as a source. (though looking at her biography, it seems that she is not qualified to be a source anyway.) 98.121.92.169 (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
It seems well known that these men were lovers. The extreme display of grief by Hadrian following the death of Antinous speaks of a strong emotional connection. Taking a young man as a lover is consistent with the Hellene culture Hadrian was a fan of. Why is it not explicitly stated that these men were lovers when there is so much evidence for this? Also Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations disapproves of Hadrians pedophilia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Computatioi (talk • contribs) 10:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
--hello,gadren 00:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Italica was Hadrian's patria, ie his family's home town, and some late Roman historians assumed that to be his birthplace, but he himself was born in Rome as is explicitly stated in the Historia Augusta, here almost universally considerd to be reproducing a good late 2nd or early 3rd century source.Cenedi
Birley's biography on Hadrian states that he was born in Flavian Rome. See also the Cambridge Ancient History, 2nd Edition, Vol XI: The Imperial Peace, p. 132.Neoaeolian
As of today we have his birthplace changed back to Spain, specifically Seville. On what grounds? Cenedi 10:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Will people please read the first paragraph of Anthony R. Birley's magisterial new biography of Hadrian, which explains that he had to have been born in Rome? His father was a senator, and senators customarily resided in Rome unless appointed as governors elsewhere. Moreover, his father was probably a praetor at the time of Hadrian's birth, another reason why the family would have to have been in Rome. http://www.amazon.com/Hadrian-Restless-Emperor-Imperial-Biographies/dp/0415228123 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mentor2 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, there are far more sources that name Hispania as Hadrian's birthplace than not. Historian Alicia M. Canto "argues that only one ancient source gives Hadrian's birth as Rome (SHA, Vita Hadr 2,4, probably interpolated), opposite to 25 ancient authors who affirm that he was born in Italica. Among these ancient sources is included his own imperial horoscope, which remained in the famous Antigonus of Nicaea's collection (end of the 2nd. century)."
This is also backed by historian F.H. Cramer: "...Hadrian – whose horoscope is absolutely certain – surely was born in southern Spain... (in) SHA, Hadrian, 2, 4, the birth was erroneously assigned to Rome instead of Italica, the actual birth-place of Hadrian..."
Also, it's often claimed that his family is from Picenum, which is misleading because it is well known that his family lived in Hispania for several centuries. He had some Italian ancestry but very little of this ancestry can be proven outside of vague mentions of distant ancestors from Picenum who came to Spain several centuries before his birth. Also, His wife, sister, parents and grandparents are all known to be born and raised in Hispania, they were not ethnically Roman. Aesthetics101 (talk) 10:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I have found resistence when introducing present-day historians' accounts of the Bar Kochba War, specially in the work of Schlomo Sand, who argues about what he sees as the unhistorical character of the general Jewish exile on the wake of the war, which he takes, among other things, as a by-product of Late Antique Christian historiography (or "Christian mythology"). I am fully aware of the politically charged character of Sand's work and his thesis, however, I have to mention that his views exist and are part of the existing academic views on the war - or not? Abhorrent as the Sand's thesis may appear, he is a bona fide scholar with a teaching post in an Israeli universityCerme (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
N.B. What I have attempted in the biographies of both Trajan & Hadrian was, to the full extent of my limited knowledge, to update the historiography used, as to me seems a problem with many of the Roman Imperial biographies on the wiki. That's why I have introduced living authors such as Paul Veyne and Sand as sources into the biograph of Hadrian. As all history is, to a certain measure, present history.... Cerme (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I understand what you mean. Only the Late Antique Christian writers were not dealing with actual historical causes such as stating that the Roman governor asked for help because the Jews rebelled, they were pointing to what they saw as Jesus' prophecy fulfilled. But then, I have, en lieu of the book by Sand, found a, in my view, far less controversial source that simply states that the actual consequences of the war and its precise place in Hadrian's religious policies are still a matter for controversy. What I'm trying to convey it's simply that a controversy exists and I'm not trying to solve it - something Wikipedia explicitly forbids Cerme (talk) 19:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
shouldn't there be a brief mentioning of hadrian's homosexuality, like his relationship with antinous?
Gimme a break buddy, since when was a Roman emperor nice to ANYBODY?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.103 (talk) 08:53, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually if we are going to give Hadrian a label for his sexual orientation it would be bisexual, not gay or homosexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.234.234 (talk) 05:06, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
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Reviewer: LT910001 (talk · contribs) 14:04, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi, nice to meet you Cerme. I'll take up this review, reviewing against the 6 good article criteria (WP:GA?). Firstly, I'd like to say... what an article! It's clear you've put a lot of careful work into this article and having read it in depth now twice I'd say it's definitely of good article quality in my mind. That said I will take another few days to read carefully again, check for copyright violation, check the images and so forth. I am sorry you've had to wait so long but many thanks for your edits to this article on Wikipedia.
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | At first glance - yes. Will thoroughly work through article in 2-3 days | |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | ||
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | Eminently - multitude of sources provided. Will verify segments of article to ensure factual integrity. One or two areas lacking citations - I'll note any that are not common sense will | |
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | ||
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | Yes, and in a very easy to read manner | |
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | Yes | |
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | ||
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7. Overall assessment. |
I will update this within 2-3 days. --Tom (LT) (talk) 14:04, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Article is stable. Article is neutral.
Prose in general. I must admit I find this article quite hard to read. To improve the readability, I suggest --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
At the moment, Hadrian's lifelong achievements are covered alongside almost a timeline of his reign. This makes it confusing because we are constantly alternating between achievements year by year, to suddenly commentary on his reign as a whole. Because Hadrian is covered in such depth, and the article is quite long, it's hard to take all that information in a useful way without feeling overwhelmed or confused. What do you think about separating this into two sections - such as "Reign" and "Achievements" or "Legacy" or "Relationships". I feel such a separation would go a long way to improving the prose and readability of the article.--Tom (LT) (talk) 07:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
I will also go through the prose section by section below. --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
I look forward to your comments, Cerme. I'm happy to discuss what I've said and don't intend for it to be prescriptive. Cheers --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Addit: My goodness, looks like you're involved heavily in two lengthy GA reviews as it stands. I'm happy to put this on hold for 2-3 weeks while you attend to those. --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
To be continued as nominator begins to respond to concerns above... --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:25, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
My goodness, looks like you're involved heavily in two lengthy GA reviews as it stands. I'm happy to put this on hold for 2-3 weeks while you attend to those. --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
--Tom (LT) (talk) 00:11, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks to Cerme and other editors who have put a lot of effort into improving this article. That said, it's not yet ready to be called a "good article" as I have described below. Something that would make a big difference to the article as I have said is separating legacy issues from a timeline of Hadrian's rule. The prose also needs a thorough clean-up, and additional references are needed before this article becomes a good article. Please don't feel disheartened, this article about a fascinating and impactful man may take some time to improve, but I look forward to seeing it renominated in 6-12 months :) --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I'm now just far too busy to work in the article. I understand the GA nomination cannot remain open for ever. When I'm free, I will begin tackling Hadrian and then Trajan later. Cerme (talk) 19:24, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
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I've been trying to deal with some of the problems pointed out by others, in the GA assessments above. The article has major problems in organisation; in effect, it's two articles, one of which says much the same as the other but within a different format; both seem over-detailed. In effect, it's probably more than twice as long as it could or should be; it's trying to do and say too much, and that makes for very hard reading. With most articles of this size, materials can be hived off into other articles, or provide a basis for new articles -- in this case, possibly not. An account of Hadrian's travels would be core to any article on him; and it's impossible to write such an account without reference to the what, why, who and when. But we also have several very long and detailed analytic, thematic sections; on cultural pursuits, the military etc., which seem to function (either by design or a quirk of the article's development) as preambles and postscripts to the travels; despite which, the travels offer almost exactly the same information. The article is not at all incomplete; much heavy lifting has been done by others; their dedication is admirable but the material needs quite drastic reorganisation. I'm inclined to do away with the thematic approach, and rewrite using a strict chronology; but I've a hunch that this will generate an entirely different set of problems. Any suggestions? Haploidavey (talk) 01:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Just a quick, crude spot-check FYI. Current readable prose is currently 73,463 bytes; if we include citations and notes, it's 136,863 bytes. That's long, but now includes some material not previously covered. Appraisals (Personality, or what have you) need coverage. Some sections and simple statements of fact are probably over-sourced. Nowhere near ready for formal reassessment. Haploidavey (talk) 18:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
In Hadrian#Arranging the succession, we have the following sourced material (sentences are consecutive - I've separated them for convenience);
I'm not sure what to make of this; I don't think it's needed. The first (citing McLynn) is straightforward; Marcus doesn't include Hadrian in his list of "positive influences"; he doesn't include Augustus either. Or his tutor Herodes Atticus. So why the pointed conclusion? The second sentence reads to me like a whole baggage of speculation. Most secondary sources accept - more or less - Cassius Dio's assertion (missing from the article, as far as I can tell) that Hadrian, despite his very notable and undeniable successes, was "loathed by the people" for his executions of leading senators at the beginning and end of his reign. These notorious killings, along with his hyperactivity, emotional outbursts and paranoia, would hardly commend him to Marcus, or any emperor with aspirations to a Stoic lifestyle. Thoughts? Is this what's sometimes known as a WP:COATRACK? Haploidavey (talk) 11:40, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
I've been trying to deal with some of the problems pointed out by others, in the GA assessments above. The article has major problems in organisation; in effect, it's two articles, one of which says much the same as the other but within a different format; both seem over-detailed. In effect, it's probably more than twice as long as it could or should be; it's trying to do and say too much, and that makes for very hard reading. With most articles of this size, materials can be hived off into other articles, or provide a basis for new articles -- in this case, possibly not. An account of Hadrian's travels would be core to any article on him; and it's impossible to write such an account without reference to the what, why, who and when. But we also have several very long and detailed analytic, thematic sections; on cultural pursuits, the military etc., which seem to function (either by design or a quirk of the article's development) as preambles and postscripts to the travels; despite which, the travels offer almost exactly the same information. The article is not at all incomplete; much heavy lifting has been done by others; their dedication is admirable but the material needs quite drastic reorganisation. I'm inclined to do away with the thematic approach, and rewrite using a strict chronology; but I've a hunch that this will generate an entirely different set of problems. Any suggestions? Haploidavey (talk) 01:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Just a quick, crude spot-check FYI. Current readable prose is currently 73,463 bytes; if we include citations and notes, it's 136,863 bytes. That's long, but now includes some material not previously covered. Appraisals (Personality, or what have you) need coverage. Some sections and simple statements of fact are probably over-sourced. Nowhere near ready for formal reassessment. Haploidavey (talk) 18:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)