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![]() | The contents of the Human dignity page were merged into Dignity on 5 March 2009 (UTC). For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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I am unsure of why it is stated that dignity is "even" applied for plants. I do think this word is obsolete in this context and with it comes a subjective note on the value of plants in society. It implies that there is a hierarchy of being on our planet, which is merely a subjective belief. The concept of dignity applies to all organisms, not to all organisms and "even" some other organisms. This seems to be a very timely articulation reminiscent of older encyclopedias that mirrored the subjective (not objective) political tone of the time, with articles that singled out minorities in the 1950s, for example. I will therefore remove the word "even" from the article for the reasons stated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.131.220.5 (talk) 08:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not entirely convinced by this definition of dignity. Can't dignity be a quality that isn't bestowed from the outside? Aren't there anarchistic definitions of dignity that specifically preculude "respect" and "esteem" as bestowing "dignity". Does a slave necessarily have less dignity than a king? Or perhaps a slave always has more dignity than a king. I've often thought that dignity had a paradoxical quality in that seeking to be dignified is the least dignified stance possible. I don't dispute the NPOV of this article, I dispute its correctness at all.
On the other hand I think I'd have to be a poet to define dignity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.105.65.5 (talk) 09:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
--
Need the definition of dignity be restricted to only human beings?
--Flame0430 03:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
--
Part of the concept of dignity stems from people whose situation leaves them particularly hurt if it is not naturally bestowed. Think about dignity for one who is dying, one who is gay or lesbian (mentioned as the word is used in an advocacy organization's name), and dignity towards developing youth. It's a moment to engage in an interpersonal transaction to show recognition that one has been there, could have been there, or will eventually be there too.
66.189.247.51 20:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It's a good thing that ravers value respect, but by exclusively mentioning them, wikipedia makes it look as if they have a sort of 'monoploy' on 'true' respect or something to that effect. However, other creed's also emphasize respect. The muslim, christian, rastafarian and many (most) others claim to value respect as a virtue. So either mention them all or none, I think. Therefore I will remove thius part from the entry.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.151.162.212 (talk) 23:25, 30 January 2004 (UTC)
Just as raver culture, I don't think we should list them, for the same reasons. If we list them, shouldn't we also list similar organizations that try to dignify other minorities? And why should we only list an American organisation if there are also similar organisations in other countries? Edit: I now see the reason DignityUSA was mentioned, because Dignity is part of it´s name. Still, I don´t think they should be on the dignity page, but if a vet disagrees with me, go ahead and undo the change.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.151.162.212 (talk) 23:25, 30 January 2004 (UTC)
WP:WINAD. Angela
Most of this should be in the respect article, if anywhere. --Kapow 03:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm of half a mind of blanking this page until something more coherent is written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cjwright79 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC).
I am convinced that the topic of dignity must be written beautifully, as the concept is itself. So I entered the extract from my favorite author S.Soloveychik, the expert in ethics.
During time I am going to add more sense in this article to become a standard article with links etc. So far I read the discussion and realised that people DO want to take everything irrelevant out.
The organizations, which contain a word "dignity" in their name I consider irrelevant because there are lots of companies and organizations, which use words like this and it doesn't mean that they all must be linked.
As we are writing encyclopedia, we must be strict to the point.
I also think that the concept "respect" is irrelevant here because it must be a separate article. It may be added as relevant links though, but I will do that later.
Abuhar Oct, 20, 2006
I added the whole article, but I still work on links. I plan to link several words when the links will be proper related to this content. As for citation, I don't know yet what way would be better. Anyone can help? Abuhar 24 Oct.06
Okay, I see that nobody is actually want to discuss anything, but they don't hesitate to clean other people's work severely. Well, it is always easier to destroy than to create something meaningful. Today I reviewed what was left from my first editing and I worked some more on the text to improve and make the idea clearer. It took several hours for me to write few paragraphs, yes, to create something is a hard work. I will continue with the rest next time. Hope people will appreciate, and that increases my dignity! :-) --Abuhar 05:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the DignityUSA disambiguation link at the top of the article because it didn't seem to be to stand out more than any other article involving the word "dignity", or be likely to be confused with the basic term itself. If someone wishes to create a proper Dignity (disambiguation) article to link to at the top of this one, here are some entries which should probably be included, in the order they appear in an "All pages" query for "Dignit":
Since I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment, I'll leave the actual creation and addition of one-line descriptions for each entry to an interested party. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I made many changes today: moved text on "respect" into corresponding article, so did with links on the concept of "respect." description of DignityUSA added to Dignity-ambiguation.
Well, not much left but it is better a little left than a big wrong impression. Concept of respect can't substitute the concept of dignity. Abuhar 04:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Dignity is an invention of liberal communist propaganda machine. If you think your dignity has been taken away, it's actually your own fault and you are making pathetic excuses for people not liking you. Get over it losers. Let's change this article to reflect these important points. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.189.49.55 (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
There's an extended quotation (properly cited, obviously a quotation) in the article. I'm not sure if it's fair use or not. Thoughts? NickdelaG
It's a bit hard to know where to start with this article, but at a minimum it needs to put the concept in historical perspective. Where is Kant (for example)? This is an encyclopedic topic but I'm afraid that I agree with those who are saying we almost need to statt again. Metamagician3000 01:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Just removed this image from the article; firstly, there's no discussion of facial expressions associated with dignity in the article, and secondly, the caption isn't sourced. (Seems a little vain, too, though I'll assume good faith for now.) Extraordinary Machine 18:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought that picture made the article!Mcalwoden 10:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The whole start of the article reads like someone's trying to make a case, without defining their terms.
This sort of article is very susceptible to weasel words and loaded language anyway.
(what's a "soul" for example?!)
Articles should objectively report current understanding of a term from as many credible perspectives with as much credible evidence as possible.
"When viewed as an intrinsically defined quality, any newborn already has his or her dignity, as he or she has a soul." Evidence please! Who says a baby is born with a soul, and how do we detect it or quantify it? Are some people born with more dignity than others? Can we extract it and sell it on eBay?!
"The soul's presence is encompassing; just as one cannot have half a soul, one cannot have only half of one's dignity." Evidence please! Says who? If you can't detect a soul, how do you know how big it is, or how many there are per person? Or whether some people have 'em and some don't?! More to the point, have you got a source for this claim! Who are you reporting?!
"The intrinsically-defined concept of dignity is therefore an infinite concept, suggesting that the highest worth that manifests in each person is their dignity, and that even an infant has dignity equal to that of an adult." Evidence please! Why is it "therefore an infinite concept"? Infinite in what way - volume? viscosity? duration? diameter? atomic mass? smell? crumbliness? sociological merit? Where's the support for this conclusion anyway? Why does it suggest anything? Who says an infant has equal, greater, or lesser dignity than an adult! how do you prove that?
Thus, dignity is not a quality of being highly valued, but is intrinsically the highest human value itself. "Thus"! "Value"? Is a "quality" a "value" then? I'm confused! What do you mean "highest" and how do you establish what makes it higher than other "values"? (It's loaded language, that's what it is). Don't non-humans have dignity then? WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCES!? WHO'S EVIDENCE ARE YOU REPORTING!?
This article is bollocks - sort it out! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.113.23.157 (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
The German version quotes Immanuel Kant, and might be a good source, I'll try to summarize.
Every Human has dignity, due to his autonomy. He gains autonomy by being able to recognize and abide to the golden rule. So indeed it's not a property that you acquire from others due to your actions (which I think the author got mixed up with honour and respect), but is intrinsic to being a human being. Whoever takes the burden of writing this article should look up Kants definition more thoroughly, since it is the one on which the Grundgesetz (German constitution) refers to. "Die würde des Menschen ist unantastbar." Artikel 1 Absatz 1
Mbarkhau 20:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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--CopyToWiktionaryBot (talk) 23:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added significantly to this article and removed a section. First, I will explain why I added, then I will give reasons for the particular additions.
The article prior to this edit was quite sparse as well as highly editorialized. There was no definition given for dignity and much of the article was concerned with how dignity is used in human rights documents in a way that was contradictory. However, since the term dignity has had quite a specific use in discourse and philosophy for many centuries it seems to not do the topic justice for this narrow criticism to be the main focus of the article.
Therefore, I added as follows:
(a) a definition - This definition - "the quality that belongs to a human being by virtue of which the person deserves to be acted towards with humanity" is what I would suppose would be the general consensual understanding of dignity and attempts to encapsulate the meaning of the term as it is used in discourse.
(b) Introduction - Summarizes how the term is generally used. Summarizes the use in philosophy, which the rest of the article elaborates upon.
(b) Pico Della Mirandola - offers a well known and accepted neo-Platonist interpretation of human dignity. This is probably representative of the dominant philosophical world view prior to Kant.
(c) Kant - is the well recognized basis for the modern view on the subject. For Kant, dignity is quite intertwined with reason, morality and autonomy and he is quite explicit on this.
(d) Human rights discourse - I left much of what was previously in the article on the subject, though it could probably be improved a lot. I removed the parts which seemed to express quite a narrow and not very well cited opinion.
I confess that I have yet to cite this article properly. I will do so shortly, but will require a bit more research. I was also going to add a section on Gandhi and moral dignity as he uses the term quite a bit. However, I have not yet found adequate material, but may add this later.
Generally, I would suggest that the additions serve as an appropriate core for the article as this offers a historical treatment covering the main divisions in philosophy that focus on dignity. Perhaps there are more sections that could be added to this.
86.0.124.120 (talk) 21:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)JG
I should note that when adding to the page I often used the term 'man' in description of certain philosophical concepts in line with the conventional use at the time. I am not sure however what is the general convention at Wikipedia regarding this.
86.0.124.120 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)JG
To 86.0.124.120: If you persist in vandalizing this article, I will ask the administrators to keep you out of it.
I have remodeled the article to incorporate your contribution. Your contribution follows mine because your contribution:
Pyrrhon8 (talk) 23:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the current page has been re-edited removing quite a helpful definition. Also, there are a number of absurdities in the current article which show an embarassing ignorance of basic intellectual history.
Why would Kant be placed under a section on Dignity and Christianity when he is the major thinker to have provided a specifically non-religious defintion for dignity and human rights? If anything, Kant and Pico Mirandella should be placed under a section of Dignity and Philosophy.
I would hazard a reason as the real reason why Pyrrohn8 does not wish to place a definition of dignity at the top is because s/he is quite adamant about insisting in this entry that dignity in international documents is underfined and is equivalent to 'just because.' However, this is a narrow opinion at best and not accepted as consensus by scholarly opinion. There is, in fact, as the pieces on Kant and Della Mirandola indicate a long tradition of discussions and defining dignity in philosophy that is not based upon theology.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Pyrrhon8, I do not know if you are actually aware of what the purpose of Wikipedia is, but it is not a vehicle for your personal opinions. If you read the guidance notes on the Wikipedia site, it will expressly state that articles should be written from a neutral perspective and not in an essay-like form. What is this paragraph doing here then?
"Equating Dignity with humanness is meaningless. To say that a person has dignity, that is, that a human is human does not impart any useful information. The statement does not prove anything."
It is a bit preposterous to call Kant a dogmatist since he is probably the philosopher who, more than anyone else, undermined dogmatic thought.
I have no choice but to change back the label that you have given this "Dignity and Dogmatists" to the more sensible label "Dignity and Philosophers." I will also once again replace the definition at the top of the page.
Really, the internet is full of discussion forums that you could join where these insights would be very appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.4.136 (talk) 22:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I will provide a leading paragraph as quickly as I am able. Pyrrhon8 (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The leading paragraph is perposterous. This is not an essay, Pyrrhon 8. Please remove your ruminations and place them elsewhere. Also, Kant was not a dogmatist nor a religious thinker. You should be embarassed to be showing off your ignorance like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.146.10.31 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
This article once had a section called 'Dignity and Dogma.' I removed the section because its inane gibberish was offensive to dignity and reason. Those who like dogma should take the section and create a new article. Pyrrhon8 (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Should the contribution by Pyrrhon8 be deleted in whole or in part? Why? Should the contribution by Cicero79 (86.??.???.???) be deleted in whole or in part? Why?
heavens! you guys are not treating this article with the dignity it deserves... . at a quick glance, it seems to me that both of these versions have qualities to recommend them (though both could also use some serious copyediting). plus, there is a tremendous amount missing from both versions. just in the last three or four centuries, human dignity has been a major philosophical issue - from classical Liberalism to Marxism to Transcendentalism to to post-modern critiques of colonialism and dehumanization, not to mention technology-driven issues like medical invasiveness, personal privacy, and etc. I like Cicero's attempts at creating structure, and I think the article should try to preserve that, but I'll need to read more carefully to comment on content. I will say, though, that I'm not quite content either with Cicero's proposed definition of dignity (which is too focussed on humans, and bit circular) or with Pyrrhon's non-definitional, use-oriented approach (which is possibly more accurate, but much more confusing). If you want to give a definition for dignity, use something like "Dignity is a term used in moral and ethical discussions to signify that a being has an innate right to respect and ethical treatment, regardless of circumstance." Mostly though, you need to start working together. There does not seem to be a huge difference between the versions of the articles that you're each presenting, and I think it would be fairly easy to find a compromise that you could both live with. let me know if there's anything I can do to help. --Ludwigs2 22:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
While the article that has been prepared by Pyrrhon8 has a very good argument and so some worthwhile points, this just does not seem to be the type of content for which Wikipedia is intended. Most of this contribution seems to be advocating Pyrrhon8's personal view of dignity. This leads to a number of quite contentious points asserted as if this were fact. For example:
"Equating dignity with humanness is meaningless. To say that a person has dignity, that is, that a human is human does not impart any useful information."
Or later on....
"It matters neither to those who want to expand human, other animal, or vegetable rights nor to those who want to curtail such rights if dignity is meaningless. Dignity is useful because it has the connotation of goodness. Because of its connotation, dignity is equal to just because as a reason for anything. It is like all the other meaningless, make-believe authorities. It is unassailable and all-purpose. Anyone can use it to support or to condemn any cause or activity."
There is also is no section on Wikipedia on "vegetable rights", so introducing this tidibit of original research is a bit questionable for this article, even though it is quite an interesting idea.
On the other hand, the discussion of dignity within the context of international treaties is very important because this has become one of the main uses of the term.
From my understanding, the purpose of Wikipedia articles is to convey the generally accepted understanding of a certain topic and the broad debates on this. Perhaps then it would be a good idea to continue what has been the structure of the article at some point, which is an introduction of the use of the term of 'dignity' within philosophy and/or political thought as the grounding for how this has been used within international treaties.
I agree that my definition could probably be improved as I wrote this quite quickly. Originally it was only intended to lay the basic framework for further editing. It is true as Pyrrhon8 perceptively notes in the article, that the definition of dignity does tend towards circularity. This does seem to be inherent to the concept, but in my personal opinion this does not render the term meaningless. Rather, the term dignity from my understanding compares the bare fact of existence with an ideal state of being. So for example a dignified person is a person who lives up to some of the ideal qualities that a person could hold, which has generally been associated with moral autonomy in ethical thought. This assumes then that there could be a normative ideal that human beings or say animals both could live up to and also which could serve as standards as to how they should be treated.
Where an empiricism is assumed as a framework (such as by David Hume) for which there is no theoretical space accorded to normative ideals, this sort of line of reasoning may not seem to make sense. However, historically most ethical thought outside of empiricism (particularly Kantian, Platonist and Aristotelian thought) has considered ideals of human behaviour as having an application to reality.
This is just to note that the points of Pyrrhon8 do seem to hold a certain amount of theoretical weight, but also are limited to a certain constrained philosophical perspective. That is not to say that this does not have some validity, but it cannot really be called the general consensus on the meaning of dignity either.Cicero79 (talk) 19:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Cicero79
Should Pyrrhon8's article on dignity be deleted?
Comment: Pyrrhon, I don't think anyone wants to delete your contributions to the article; we just want to make it more encyclopedic. I'm going to go ahead and do a rewrite combining your and Cicero's contributions. I hope that will satisfy your concerns. --Ludwigs2 03:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC) I've made a first round of revisions - please let me know what you think. more later. --Ludwigs2 04:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
If you are dead set on providing the full history of dignity, you have my commendation Ludwigs2.
I assume you will want to become familiar with the literature on the subject, to collect some quotations, and then to write the piece.
If the piece that you write is short, it could be merged with the existing article. If the piece is long, it can stand as a separate article or as several articles.
Since it could be some time until you have written your piece or pieces, I suggest the article be reverted to my last version for the time being. As it is, the random assortment of definitions that are without references and replete with weasel words is not a compliment to anyone's effort.
Please revert the article to my last version. I will revise the final paragraphs in hopes of making the article easier to understand. Then I will await your magnum opus. Pyrrhon8 (talk) 04:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I have no interest in revising the article in its present deplorable condition. I happened upon your article: Passions (philosophy). Your contribution there is much like your contribution here. Both contributions lack references and use weasel-words. Do you not agree with Wikipedia's directions for a good article? Do you not like good articles? Pyrrhon8 (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
This article is utter rubbish as it stands. It reads like somebody is trying to fit their first-year undergraduate essay into a Wikipedia article. I am actually surprised that this is acceptable given Wikipedia's standards. I have tried to change this, but a clever user called Pyrrhon8 keeps reverting it back to the article at its current abysmal level. What are you meant to do within Wikipedia if someone treats an article as their own personal fortress? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.226.95 (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ladies and gentlemen, Cicero79 is much too generous. He is too lavish with his praise. I am but a humble candle in a vast, dark universe. My weak flame would be nothing were it not for you: the other candles of Wikipedia. Thank you! Together, we have said, "Let there be light"; and here it is. Together, we have created something good--something that will keep the shadows at bay a while longer--something that is worth defending to the last candle. Let it be so! Pyrrhon8 (talk) 00:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
In November 2008, "Dignity" became a stable article. Well-supported by the progressive Wikipedia community, the article endured past mid-February 2009. On 1 March 2009, Belasted nominated the article for deletion. Prior to the nomination, Belasted had not discussed the article on its talk-page. Belasted had not contributed to the article. After the nomination, Belasted did not notify me (the article's most significant contributor). MBisanz, an administrator, decided to keep the article, and to redirect 'Human dignity' to 'Dignity'. On 5 March 2009, immediately before MBisanz posted his decision, Ludwigs2 mashed 'Human dignity' into 'Dignity' to produce the current version. In November 2008, Ludwigs2 tried to reduce 'Dignity' to a similar mishmash of fact and nonsense. Ludwigs2 was not able to defend his mishmash because he was blocked for disruptive editing. IMHO, the version by Ludwigs2 needs improvement because of its weasel-words , misinformation, omitted information, and unsourced information. IMHO, the current article has too many flaws, and needs to be rewritten. I tried to replace the current article with a re-edited version on 17 March 2009. Belasted promptly reverted my version. Belasted gave no reason for the reversion. I welcome your comments. Pyrrhon8 (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Pyrrhon, please don't do that. it's not like I'm not going to see that you reverted my edits. the version you keep trying to press is no where near as developed as what's currently here - if you want to make changes, please discuss them so we can come to some sort of compromise. constantly reasserting your preferred version is a bit rude. --Ludwigs2 03:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't really understand the usage of dignity here. The OED has as its main entries:
The content here seems to say nothing of this and perhaps belongs under another heading such as Human rights. Does the issue arise from the usage of a similar word in a Continental language or what? Colonel Warden (talk) 11:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I suggest:
1) the paragraph about David Hume and the Is-ought problem should be reinstated in the section entitled Philosophy:
Aldergrove observed that dignity, regardless of its meaning, cannot justify the claims that commentators attach to it. Aldergrove says those claims are precluded by the observation of Scottish philosopher David Hume. Hume noted that an is-statement does not give rise logically to just one ought-statement. Aldergrove said thus we cannot go logically from “we are human” to some therefore about what we ought to do or believe.
That paragraph is the core of the article because that paragraph explains the absurdity of using dignity or any other abstraction as a reason for anything. That paragraph explains why we often see dignity in the company of perversity and paradox.
2) the section entitled Religion should be reinstated:
Some sects hold that a being has dignity if the being resembles the kind of god that looks like a person. For example, the Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church insists the "dignity of the human person is rooted in his or her creation in the image and likeness of God." "All human beings," says the Church, "in as much as they are created in the image of God, have the dignity of a person." The catechism says, "The right to the exercise of freedom belongs to everyone because it is inseparable from his or her dignity as a human person."
Those who invoke dignity often say that their ideas about dignity arise out of their religion. (See photo above.) I see no good reason for Ludwigs2 to censor this section.
3) the introductory paragraphs (courtesy of Ludwigs2) should be improved or eliminated. An introduction should summarize the article. This introduction does not summarize the article. To summarize the article is difficult because the concept of dignity is amorphous. Generalizing about dignity produces misinformation. Dignity is not a term limited to moral, ethical, or political discussions. Anybody can use dignity for all sorts of reasons. It is false to say dignity is about beings. Writers talk about the dignity of the liberal arts, the dignity of work, and the dignity of science to name but a few subjects. It is false to say dignity is generally proscriptive and cautionary. Ludwigs2 provides no evidence to support his claims. The claim without explanation that dignity is “closely related” to other words tells us nothing useful. The introduction by Ludwigs2 lacks the verifiable, properly referenced, relevant information that Wikipedia recommends. PYRRHON talk 15:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The missing paragraphs on Hume and religion read as follows:
Aldergrove observed that dignity, regardless of its meaning, cannot justify the claims that commentators attach to it. Aldergrove says those claims are precluded by the observation of Scottish philosopher David Hume. Hume noted that an is-statement does not give rise logically to just one ought-statement. Aldergrove said thus we cannot go logically from “we are human” to some therefore about what we ought to do or believe.
Some sects hold that a being has dignity if the being resembles the kind of god that looks like a person. For example, the Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church insists the "dignity of the human person is rooted in his or her creation in the image and likeness of God." "All human beings," says the Church, "in as much as they are created in the image of God, have the dignity of a person." The catechism says, "The right to the exercise of freedom belongs to everyone because it is inseparable from his or her dignity as a human person." PYRRHON talk 15:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The main body of the Dignity article begins rather abruptly, i.e., "A philosopher, Pico De Mirandello...". Firstly, this sentence and the first sentence of the next paragraphs are structured quite awkwardly.
Secondly, shouldn´t the section on philosophy begin with a paragraph, or at least a sentence or two, giving a general overview on the scope of the philosophical discussion on the topic and on the role this has within philosophy, (of which substantial things can be said, especially in relation to ethics).
Thirdly, the discussion of the philosophers are not very expository or explanatory, but merely state what the philosophers "said". This does very little to elucidate the topic or deepen understanding for the reader, which is after all the function of philosophy.
Fourthly, there is one paragraph given for Pico, one for Kant and then two for a philosopher, Aldergrove, who is not well known, does not generally have a Wikipedia page and seems to virtually not exist on a google search. The other philosophers mentioned are also not well known. Perhaps this section should be better structured to reflect the mainstream of philosophical thought (although, granted, the section on Aldergrove refers to Hume, who is most certainly mainstream).
Fifthly, perhaps there are other figures who should be mentioned in this section. In particular, Gandhi comes to mind for which the idea of diginity as upholding moral worth was an essential concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.247.161 (talk) 22:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
While some may view this as nit-picking, I think the first sentence or two are quite one-sided (don't know about the rest of it). Regardless of what I think of as true, a bit of neutral wording is in order. 'God-given'? In the spirit of Wikipedia's neutrality and hence secularism, I'll change this to something along the lines of innate, or natural (since that's essentially what it means to those invested in a God, or Gods). If there's a problem with my grammar or wording, don't just delete it, fix it. If you do delete it, I'd like an explanation (maybe it is supposed to be indicative of its origins in the Enlightenment). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.148.9 (talk) 08:50, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Pyrrhon - I'm not sure why you reverted that. my edit was intended to improve prose and flow as well as expand some of the ideas out, not to make any serious content changes. can you tell me why you reverted it? am I missing something? --Ludwigs2 23:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
A third opinion has been requested for this article. For editors giving a third opinion, the disputed versions can be seen in this diff. --Ludwigs2 05:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
After carefully looking at the differences between the disputed versions, I feel that while both versions of the articles have advantages, the version that was reverted was an attempt to make the article flow better. I find it a more understandable article. I would like to remind both authors however to Assume Good Faith. I do prefer the original version after line twenty by Prrhon. I feel like the changes should probably be kept, and changes should be made to that version. (I can understand it a bit better than the version that was reverted to) Both of you should feel free to leave any comments on my talk page. Additionally, I have added this page to my watchlist. Thanks, NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 06:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Pyrrhon, but you can not revert the page to your preferred version (of over 6 months ago) without discussion on the talk page. that's simply not acceptable. --Ludwigs2 18:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted back to the 30-recommended version. hopefully we can discuss any further changes that you'd like in the article before any further reverts. --Ludwigs2 22:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I have protected this page before blocks need to be handed out here. This edit warring has carried on long enough, and that's what it is an edit war. Each person constantly reverting the other with no sensible discussion between you just sniping at each other. Discuss the issues or it's possible blocks may end up being involved for disruptive editing, or article bans may need to be considered. Please discuss in a civilised manner, don't discuss each other discuss the article and its content. Canterbury Tail talk 13:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
The article seems to give a certain heavy weight to the views of Aldergrove within the introduction. This seems slightly absurd given that Aldergrove is hardly a well-known think. I have attempted to rectify this a few times. But somebody seems to be launching a pyrrhic war to have their own particular version of the article enshrined (along with the narrow views they support). Perhaps there is a way to fix this, so that the article is not primarily seen to support the narrow viewpoint of one particular activist member of the Wikipedia community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.186.10 (talk) 10:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello Pyrrhon,
I am sure that the Wikipedia community applauds your enthusiastic contributions to this article. Nevertheless, just because you believe that a particular philosopher is good or even excellent, it does not mean that you should insist that that this (relatively obscure) philosopher should dominate an article by being placed most prominently in the introduction and to occupy the most space in the rest of the article, rather than being placed within the context of a range of viewpoints. The effect of this, as I am sure you must be aware, is to elevate your own opinion above the general consensus and to try to skew the reader of the article to reach a certain conclusion. It goes without saying that this violates a certain central principle of Wikipedia, which is usually summarized as NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.5.33.78 (talk) 10:05, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
An article should be written to comply with the criteria for a good article. The first of those criteria is that the article be well-written. An article is well-written if:
According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section), the lead section "serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article."
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should usually be established in the first sentence. While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article. The lead should contain no more than four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style to invite a reading of the full article."
The lead section by User:Moonriddengirl or Ludwigs2 is not "a concise overview of the article." The lead section by User:Moonriddengirl or Ludwigs2 is not "carefully sourced." The lead section has no overview of what the article will say. The first paragraph has no sources. The second paragraph has sources provided by me for a different context.
Wikipedia:Verifiability states, "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed . . . ." Wikipedia explains that it wants unsourced material removed to exclude original research. Wikipedia:No original research states "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources." The lead paragraph by User:Moonriddengirl or Ludwigs2 is original research. I have no idea if the first paragraph is the result of synthesis or is pure invention; I have no idea what the source for the first paragraph is. Accordingly, the lead section by User:Moonriddengirl or Ludwigs2 transgresses some of the most basic of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
User:Moonriddengirl complains about the article's Point of View if my version of Dignity is presented to Wikipedia's readers. WP:NPOV requires that articles present a neutral point of view. What is a neutral point of view? User:Aryaman explained during an arbitration case at 14:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC), "that WP:NPOV really means 'the POV taken by most modern western (e.g. secular, liberal, humanistic, etc.) academics'." That POV is the POV that is present in my version of Dignity. That POV reports what is present in the literature on a topic without regard for the views of those who want information censored, suppressed, or distorted. See WP:NOTCENSORED.
User:Moonriddengirl, please explain why you are opposed to that POV. Please provide details—with reliable sources—about the POV that you want to push. Be specific; I have no idea what you want the article to say.
User:Moonriddengirl and others complain that Aldergrove is given too much prominence here. It is not my fault that Aldergrove provides the most insightful analysis of dignity any more than it is my fault that David Hume stated the is-ought problem. As I have indicated above, Aldergrove's analysis of dignity is the most thorough and understandable that I have found. I have so much to say about Aldergrove because he said so much that is relevant to the article. I cannot omit a random half or three-eighths of what he said because somebody thinks he is not famous enough for more.
User:Moonriddengirl says, "If Aldergrove is a giant in the field of philosophy known and widely cited for his work on dignity, then he may merit domination of the article . . . ." WP:UNDUE does not require that authors be giants in their field. There is no requirement that an author be a celebrity. Any editor can put as much information into an article as is relevant to the article without regard for how famous somebody is. There is no way to make an author's contribution to an article correspond with every reader's notion of how famous the author is. The notion is absurd.
User:Moonriddengirl, I request that you restore the article to the last version by me. If that is unacceptable, I will arrange to discuss this matter on another noticeboard. Ludwigs2 has designed a very nice template that I think I can set up to facilitate your explanation of why you think the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia do not apply to you. Please reply here. PYRRHON talk 02:07, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
andIt is not my fault that Aldergrove provides the most insightful analysis of dignity...
constitute Wikipedia:Original research. If you wish to use Aldergrove's commentary upon the concept of dignity, you must provide a reliable third party source that references Aldergrove's insights.Aldergrove's analysis of dignity is the most thorough and understandable that I have found.
I have been told that the vandalism which has afflicted Dignity during the past two years is not vandalism. I beg to differ. Here is why.
Wikipedia:Vandalism has a gray box near the bottom of its page. The first row in the box says that one example of vandalism is this:
Removing all or significant parts of a page's content without any reason, or replacing entire pages with nonsense. Sometimes referenced information or important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary. However, significant content removals are usually not considered to be vandalism where the reason for the removal of the content is readily apparent by examination of the content itself, or where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary.
I reverted attempts to remove a significant part of Dignity because editors removed that part without a legitimate reason. User:128.223.222.75, a limited-purpose account (one edit at that time), gave no reason for removing a big chunk of the article. User: 67.171.228.196, a single-purpose account, removed material because, he said, I was "some other fool"; the comments by Aldergrove were "without citations"; and the article was "pathetic self-promotion." None of those comments has any connection with reality. None of those comments deserves any response. User: 81.100.129.228 a limited-purpose account, gave no reason for blanking part of the article. At no time did any editor mention any policy that the article was violating or mention any harm that the article was allegedly causing.
Accordingly, what I removed was vandalism. Contrary to what some administrators seem to want to believe, removing vandalism is not subject to the 3R Rule; removing vandalism is NOT edit warring. I repeat: removing vandalism is NOT edit warring. In case I am not making myself clear, I offer this quotation from WP:Edit_warring, "Reverting vandalism is not edit warring." An editor not only may but should revert vandalism as often as the vandalism reappears. Removing vandalism and keeping an article from being turned into drivel are the practices of good editors. Sometimes excellent editors will effect several reversions to one article in one day. Those editors have no qualms about making many reversions to stop vandalism because removing vandalism is not subject to the 3R Rule since removing vandalism is NOT edit warring. Removing vandalism is NOT disruptive editing. Disruptive editing has as its aim to make an article bad. Removing vandalism does not make an article bad. No administrator should accuse an editor of being a single-purpose account or of being a disruptive editor merely because an editor makes reversions to counter vandalism. No administrator should notify an editor that he is liable to be blocked for doing what every editor should be doing. PYRRHON talk 02:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
I've made an interim edit to the first sentence which began by calling dignity a term, while this article is about dignity, not the word "dignity". (See WP:REFERS). But the first sentence really needs a full rewrite to fix the problem, because dignity is also not a concept; rather there is a concept of dignity. Whatever that concept is of, that is what dignity is, and the first sentence should say "Dignity is..." and then whatever the concept of dignity is the concept of, or equivalently whatever the term "dignity" refers to (or, as the sentence still reads, signifies). But since I am not well versed in this topic I wanted to open discussion here to formulate the new first sentence rather than just writing "Dignity is..." something myself and getting it wrong.
So, what is dignity? --Pfhorrest (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I have just added lack of sanitation as an example of violation of human dignity. I heave provided one source but could dig out more if needed. I am not sure if I have put it in the correct place in the article but I think it is a very important example, affecting so many people in this world 1 billion - do you agree? EvM-Susana (talk) 09:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I think female genital mutilation (FGM) is an important example for a violation of dignity of women, so I have added a sentence and hyperlink to the FGM article. I hope that people who know much more about the concept of dignity than I do, will take a look at the talk page of the FGM article: I am trying to convince the other editors that a sentence mentioning violation of dignity (with hyperlink) would be justified to make the connection. So far, people are resisting my suggestion but perhaps someone coming from the dignity side could add their opinion?EvM-Susana (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
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I am going to search different quotes from multiple religious documents/doctrines/bibles to add more depth to the "Religion" section, and to also add more material from reliable sources to give a bigger point of reference to this section and how religion ties to Dignity.Erikamichaeledits (talk) 07:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Here are some sources that I will be starting my search with. I will try to find as many reliable quotes from as many different religions as I can find.
https://www.worldtribune.org/2017/03/5-quotes-respecting-dignity-persons-life/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erikamichaeledits (talk • contribs) 07:52, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Whoa. Where and when did dignity get be a "right?" Surprising article. Disappointing really.
Consider these.
From https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dignity
noun, plural dig·ni·ties. bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation. nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments. elevated rank, office, station, etc. relative standing; rank. a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer. Archaic. person of high rank or title. such persons collectively.
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dignity
dignity noun Save Word To save this word, you'll need to log in.
dig·ni·ty | \ ˈdig-nə-tē \ plural dignities Essential Meaning of dignity 1: a way of appearing or behaving that suggests seriousness and self-control She showed dignity in defeat. The ceremony was conducted with great dignity. 2: the quality of being worthy of honor or respect Theirs is a country that cherishes freedom and human dignity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrpetersen1 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
The topic of "Human dignity and Shia Islam" is probably notable, but this article is not in good shape from the content policy adherence POV. This topic can be adequately covered in Dignity#religion, but much of the content here is not salvageable save a total rewrite. As such, I'd like to smerge or WP:BLAR this article to that section. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 02:24, 11 June 2022 (UTC)