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There are rather a lot of errors in some recent edits. I have corrected some of these, but am merely suspicious about others (such as the tunnel claims). Someone with direct knowledge of Bletchley should review some of the statements made. As of this date, this is an unsatisfactory article due to the (possibly) erronious content which remains.
ww 13:56, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
Re “Station X” Welchman (1982, Hut 6 page 160) writes “Bletchley Park (known in the intelligence world as Station X)”; but he could have got that from postwar writings. He says (page 11) it was B.P. to the inhabitants. Re Pearl Harbour etc, while the decrypts probably didn’t refer specifically to Pearl, Tiltman and other British (and Dutch?) cryptanalysts were working on Japanese codes including JN-25; it wasn’t an American monopoly. And on the shortening of the war by (?) which seems credible; if the European war had lasted much longer, would the allies have dropped an Atomic bomb on Germany? Hugo999 01:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Because of the importance of Bletchley Park for the field of Computer Science someone should correct the statement where it sais the Collossos was the world's first programmable computer. That information is incorrect - the earlier success of Konrad Zuse in building a fully electronic computer (Z1, Z2, Z3) were largeley ignored in Nazi Germany. I think that information is especially interesting in relation to Batchley Park, because Germany apparently had access to superior technology for cryptography at the time - luckily didn't realize it!
Matt, I can't pretend to remember the Hut numbering, but the one I seem to remember is Hut Six. It's the title of Welchman's book, after all. That implies that Six was responsible for Naval Engima, not as the list is now Army and AirForce variants. Since you've clearly gotten this from a list, could there have been a list - brain - fingers obscuration. Appropriate for the crypto corner, eh?, but confusing to the non-cryptiac.
So, Six or not Six, that is ... never mind... ww 14:57, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've moved the following rumours here for now:
The code breakers would enter the park by coach or train, and it is rumoured that there was a series of inter-connecting tunnels and chambers below Bletchley Park that allowed workers to get in secretly. It is also rumoured that one tunnel, which started in the Park grounds and emerged in the local pub, was for the use of Winston Churchill. It is also said that Eisenhower and Churchill had a meeting in one of the rumoured chambers.
Does anyone have a source for these rumours? I haven't come across them after reading a number of BP books, so I'm not even sure these are notable enough to include, but I'm willing to be proved wrong! — Matt 20:23, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The rumours of tunnels for Churchill were alive in 1982; we spent many hours searching for them in Block B, without success, but with some likely places - the drying room in the basement appeared to have a blocked off area, and a vertical blocked tunnel close to the GCHQ building facing part of Block B.
Comment only: on the list of people associated with Bletchley Park: I think you've linked Hugh Alexander to the wrong chap: the Hugh Alexander at Bletchley was C. H. O'D. Alexander, an outstanding English chess player, later - among other things - chess correspondent of the Sunday Times (in which capacity he once sent me a nice letter).
Brian Palmer 137.195.14.158 14:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
According to the caption for the picture of Hut 1, "Hut 1 was the first hut to be constructed". I am surprised by this. Surely the first hut to be constructed would logically have been Hut 76, or Hut 4931? :-p --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 12:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have added stubs for Frank Birch, Hugh Foss, and Josh Cooper (cryptographer). Hope someone can add the BP details of JC! And that no-one deletes Hugh Foss, as happened to someone else's earlier article on him in 2005. PS re Categories, should Foss etc be shown as Category:Cryptographers or Category:British Cryptographer(s)??
The reference to Kilindi needs to direct to a new page I will write sometime on the FECB = Far East Combined Bureau, which moved from Hong Kong to Singapore to Colombo/Ceylon to Kilindini. And there is a reference in Action this Day (page 142/144/531) re Hugh Foss to him being in the Japanese Naval Section in “Hut 7” at B.P. To add Hut 7 to the Huts in main B.P. article?
(Not sure who wrote above) I added Hut 7 and more people but no stubs. One of the challenges is who to list. If a source lists someone in an article, who am I to not add them? -- DGamey 01:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Radio 4's "The Reunion" broadcast on the 6th and 11th April 2008 brought together five people who were codebreakers at Bletchley Park. If you're quick you can catch it on the "listen again" website here before it expires on Sunday morning 13th April when the next programme is broadcast. There was some useful stuff on there that could be quoted in the article - such as how the first book published on the subject was wrong, and quotations from Churchill. If I can find my minidisk recorder I'll plug it into the PC to record it but time is short and I've not found it yet. Richerman (talk) 13:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Despite past donations Bletckley still struggles financially for the reason given in this ZD Net article. Bletchley Park faces bleak future I don't know how best to work it into this article, so I'll leave it here for anyone who understands the situation better.--Aspro (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
In my view Bletchley Park existed yet is bedevilled by the history of the contemporary times. 'When did Bletchley Park know about the "Final solution"?' is a question that recurs. The answer seems to be that the Germans passed lists of the names of those slaughtered, encrypted, and Blethcley park was aware of these lists from fairly early on. What they meant was open to question, as was the extremely vexing question of what could be done if everyone's worst nightmares were recognised. Were the orders stemming from the Wannsea conference promulgated via ENIGMA, and were they intercepted?
At the end of the war copies of the ENIGMA machine were given to commonwealth countries as an unbreakable system. MI6 wanted Bletchley Park raised to the ground and any memories sowed with salt (hence the continuing rumours of Turing's suicide - did you ever hear such nonsense as the tale that he is supposed to have coated an apple with cyanide and put it into his fruit bowl?) This destruction included Colossus. However, since the whole point of giving these machines to other countries was because the codes could be broken, clearly MI6/GCHQ must have built a replacement.
It is a matter of record that Bletchley Park didn't cackle, but Philby, Blunt et al sang like birds, and they had access to the intercepts. As far as Stalin was concerned, Bletchley Park was an open book.
The UK govt. were and are still, paranoid (not too strong a word) about the average bloke off the street being able to use a code which govt. cannot read. Secret service fixation about the mathematical approaches to encryption (mostly demanding the extraction of very large primes) meant that they concluded the situation could be controlled by restricting access to the necessary computing power, which lead to establishment demands that the number of computers in the UK should be heavily restricted and placed in locations where they could be properly policed. Hence the statement that the number of computers needed in the UK were 4 and they should be in nuclear power (perhaps more properly called fissile material extraction plants) stations.
Other questions occur. Were the Labour government told about Bletchley Park when they came to power in 1945, or was that another of the secrets that the Civil Service felt were too important to be entrusted to a Socialist Government?
Where the British Army directed to Belsen as quickly as possible, or was the need to keep our success in code breaking secret still, even at that late stage, considered to be paramount?
Clearly Stalin wanted a second front. Equally clearly he would have been happy if it's success had been limited while drawing in as many German troops as possible. At Arnhem the Germans had placed a Panzer division close by our target, supposedly for 'R & R'. Why was there no information about the location of this division relayed by ENIGMA as usual and intercepted, as one might have expected? Or was it that 'Boy' Browning had this information and it was this that lead to the instant demise of his army career and undiluted hatred from his American opposite numbers? Did Stalin allow German spies to glean the information about the intended attack which had been relayed to him by his selection of highly placed spies in the UK?
Drg40 (talk) 09:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
As one who doesn't know about this subject, some of the sentences seem to come out of the blue, and could use some prefacing or explanation:
Help in clarifying would be welcome. - Special-T (talk) 13:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone add info. about Stalin's spy/spies at BP?
Is is true that Stalin was given intelligence information from BP, under a cover-story, but that he knew, through spying, the real intelligence source (that 3 and 4 wheel Enigma cypher has been broken, by using Bombes and so on)?
But is it also true that the Collosii were destroyed in 1945 because Britain did not want Stalin to know that the much stronger twelve-wheel German high-command cypher had been broken at BP, which was useful in the Cold War? Jdudding (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
It is certainly the case that Stalin was aware of Bletchley Park and Ultra. The Soviet Spy John Cairncross worked as a translator at BP for a year, and other members of the Cambridge 5 spyring had access to Ultra reports. Regarding clandestine sharing of Ultra, it is certainly true that Churchill personally provided Stalin information, with ultra as the undisclosed source, regarding Barbarossa and Operation Blue to the Soviets, which were promptly ignored. I don't know about the destruction of the Colossi. --95.151.250.94 (talk) 14:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
The article states
"The only direct action that the site experienced was when three bombs, thought to have been intended for Bletchley railway station, were dropped on 20 November 1940 – 21 November 1940. One bomb exploded next to the dispatch riders' entrance, shifting the whole of Hut 4 (the Naval Intelligence hut) two feet on its base. As the huts stood on brick pillars, workmen just winched it back into position whilst work continued inside."
But the Bletchley park site itself states that it is believed the bombs were just being randomly dumped by a German bomber heading home. As the statement above doesn't site evidence, shouldn't it be removed?
213.120.222.100 (talk) 15:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I can contribute to the story of the bombing of Bletchley Park, having been there in 1940. I was a member of the German Air Section which occupied half of Hut 4, with the German Naval Section in the other half, until the end of 1940. One bomb fell near Hut 4, but did not damage it in any way. The only damage it caused was to a small hut to the west of Hut 4. I went to have a look at the bomb site on the following day and saw that the small hut was leaning slightly in the direction of the Mansion. I understood that this small hut was used by the Bletchley Park typing pool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.223.48 (talk) 14:42, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
There are 2 refences in this article to a J Tiltman, the first to Col. J. Tiltman, and the second to John Tiltman. The first reference says there is no wikipedia entry to Col. J. Tiltman, the second references a page about John Tiltman - including his work at Bletchley. I am sure both references are actually to the same man ( just from reading the 2 pages, not from any personal knowledge ). I do not know how to correct this, so can I suggest the link for Col. J. Tiltman is made the same as the link for John Tiltman?
If I have misunderstood the document, and Col. J. Tiltman is a different person to John Tiltman then please make this clear in the text. Holland jon (talk) 19:09, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
The caption of the submarine model says it is 1:40 scale. A German submarine of that era was maybe 80 meters long (see German submarine U-110 (1940)). A 1:40 scale model would be a little less than 2 meters long. The one in the photo looks at least 10 meters long, so it can't be anything close to 1:40 scale. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Done That's the best solution. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
An editor seems pretty insistent this article be included in Category:Cryptographic attacks, which seems inappropriate. Bletchley Park is as much a crypto attack as is the NSA or CIA. Examples of the articles included in the category:
Inclusion of Bletchley Park in this category makes no sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Thanks! — UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 22:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
New pages added for Hut 3 & Hut 4; they were redirects to Bletchley Park. Any other "Hut" articles warranted? Hugo999 (talk) 11:34, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
These points may not be entirely on-topic in the article, but it's certainly significant in the general topic of war-time coded communications, perhaps in the "See also" section:
—Steve98052 (talk) 11:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Intelligence Service Knox currently links to Dilly Knox. I am preparing to add some information about ISK to this page but Knox died very soon after ISK was established, with Peter Twinn becoming head, so a full treatment seems inappropriate there. ISK already has several links from biography pages. Unless anyone has a better idea or beats me to it, I'll probably create a page for Intelligence Service Knox (notable for disseminating over 100,000 decrypted German Military Intelligence transcripts) and redirect links (including the Knox link from this page) to that page. RobertBurrellDonkin (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
For balance, shouldn't there also be a page for ISOS for Oliver Strachey's outfit?--TedColes (talk) 15:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The communications radio receiver on the left with the two big semi-circular dials on its front panel is clearly a post-war (American) Hallicrafters design -- probably a model S-85. It was manufactured by Hallicrafters near Chicago USA from about 1954 or 1955 until the mid-1960s. Clearly, it did not exist during WW2.
I'd have expected to see a WW2-vintage UK-manufactured radio receiver at Bletchley Park -- maybe one manufactured by Marconi, Pye, or Plessey. Russbellew (talk) 08:00, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
One more question: If this is a LISTENING station, why is a telegraph key needed? Worse, why is it plugged into the headphones jack of the Hallicrafters S-85 receiver? Russbellew (talk) 08:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
From the opening paragraph: "New attractions are becoming available regularly. Up to date details can be found ......" at an external link. Sounds inappropriately like an ad to me, especially upfront in the lede. If there are no objections, I'll tone it down and move the link elsewhere. jxm (talk) 02:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
User EEng has cut out about one third of this article without discussion on these pages. Change on this scale seems to me to be worthy of explanation and more evident consensus. --TedColes (talk) 05:40, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Ted, I wonder if you can explain why the particular shortage, complained of to Churchill by Turing et al., matters in narrating action-this-day. In other words, what does [1]
add to the reader's experience of the subject, relative to
(other than being 25% longer, of course). This may seem like a minor point, but I strongly believe that surplus detail adding to neither the reader's understanding nor his interest seriously weigh down an article. It's the death of a thousand dull cuts.
For that matter I'm not sure why the full roster of petitioners matters either. Why not
Certainly I believe in credit-where-due but there's plenty of credit due all these men for many reasons, and I think they wouldn't mind not being enumerated in this particular incident. EEng (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I think red tape accurately and succinctly communicates the situation you describe, especially given that in a prior version you yourself wrote
which it seems to me is the very essence of (extreme) red tape. If you like we can say instead official indifference or unresponsiveness, but I don't see how that better informs the reader.
I also don't see how your wording makes the point you mention re success in decrypting and the importance of that success. Obviously a request for more resources will try to convince the recipient that such will help the writers to better do what they've been tasked to do. To spell out that their desire was "to achieve the productivity that was possible" would be completely superflous -- of course that was the goal. And surely no reader needs to be told that better productivity / faster decrypting / etc. meant the entire difference between valuable intelligence and useless retrospective. Your wording doesn't mention any of that stuff anyway.
Further (as I've said before) I also don't see why it matters what specific type of resource was lacking -- the important points are: (a) the codebreakers felt that they could not do the best job possible without more resources; (b) Churchill unhesitatingly granted them carte blanche, showing the importance he attached to their work and the breadth of his authority in making such decisions. What doesn't matter is just what it was that was lacking -- typists? paperclips? light bulbs? Some of these elements could be incorporated to enliven the narrative e.g. some kind of "for want of a nail"-type angle -- "Look, Prime Minister, you've gathered all these first-class minds here but we can't get anything done because we have to do our own bloody TYPING!" -- if sources lay something like that out.
Am I missing something? EEng (talk) 22:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC) P.S. What do you mean about WP:CIV? <bump>EEng (talk) 17:40, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi there,
The only question that needs to be asked regarding this is: Is the average reader aware that the term "deb" is an abbreviation of "debutante"? If they are, then there is no need for a bracketed expansion. If they aren't, then it's an easter egg, and there needs to be a bracketed expansion.
Personally, I've never heard this abbreviation before. Is it more common in the UK? InternetMeme (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I've just had an idea: Why is the word linked in the first place?
There are two possibilities:
InternetMeme (talk) 07:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
As brought out above it appears you are under the misapprehension that debs is an abbreviation. It's not. Several lines of reasoning have been given for why the link is appropriate and helpful. I wonder if you can just defer on this. EEng (talk) 16:30, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Is the visit by Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge and her family link to Hut 16 of any note: [2]? "Ms Glassborow, who married the duchess' grandfather Peter Middleton, was a civilian staff member at the centre where her twin sister Mary was also employed." Martinevans123 (talk) 18:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Cottage Number 2 WAS NOT used by Dilly Knox or Alan Turing as this was the house occupied by the Budd Family from 1940 through to 1950, it was in Cottage Number 3 that Knox and Turing worked with a lot of Wrens and this Cottage became know as 'The Harem' and the girls as 'Dilly's Fillies' It is true the Cottages were converted from a 'Fruit Store and Tack Room' and the Tower in Number 2 was NOT used by Alan Turing as it is NOT a room but the stairs for Number 2 Cottage leading to the upstairs bedrooms, Alan Turing used the upstairs rooms in Number 3 Cottage. During WWII Mrs Budd use to tell the children living in Number 2 Cottage to be 'quiet' as the girls next door were doing very important work and she did not want them disturbed. The reason I have 'Made' these changes is I have tried about 5 times before and NOTHING was carried out to change this mistake, how do I know these facts, my name is Neville J Budd the youngest son of the four children who lived in Number 2 Cottage during WWII, we were the ONLY people who lived in Bletchley Park during this time, every one else was 'Billeted' Out side of the Park, the other members of the Budd family were Robert George Buud (Dad) Emma Rebecca Budd (Mum) Robert George Edwin Budd (Brother Bobby) Jean & Faye Budd my Twin Sisters, check the Wall Hanging in the entrance of the Mansion and you will see all of our names. Comment by Neville 120 -- see [3].
As I have stated the TOWER was NOT a ROOM it is the stair way for Number 2 Cottage, Turning only came into our house ONCE to see his mother and she was sleeping in one of the bedrooms downstairs.
Thank you EEng, at last someone listened to what I have been saying for the past year. If you need to contact me please use my email address.
I use the name Anderson in my name, which was my Grand Mothers maiden name, and it is better than Neville J. Budd as and author, to see more information have a look at my book 'Bletchley Park Family' on Createspace and Kindle. NJA-B.
Regards Neville J. Anderson-Budd — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neville 120 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
It is often claimed that Bletchley Park remained secret until 1974 and the publication of Winterbotham's memoir. This is, in fact, untrue. There are several instances in which information about BP's work was published before this date. The former BP veteran and post-war librarian, Jimmy Thirsk, details a number of these (which I've checked, and he is right) in his memoir. I have added a sentence to the Post War section to better reflect that fact.95.146.250.4 (talk) 11:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I am amazed those have all been removed. Yes, they do need sources, but they are possibly the most notable portrayals of Bletchley in popular culture. I suspect they have not been sourced already as they all have Wikipedia articles to support them. I think ((cn)) tags might be more appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I reverted an edit made by Editor ECEC because:
Editor ECEC reverted with the edit summary: I have permission from the photographer, Shaun Armstrong, to use low res versions of his images of Bletchley Park on the Bletchley Park Wikipedia page.
At the image's page, the Author field identifies Editor ECEC as the author and the Source field identifies the image as her/his own work which is in contradiction to the statement in the edit summary.
Editor ECEC may 'have permission' to use the image, but Wikipedia does not. The image should be deleted.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
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Hi, I'm currently working on User:Ethanbas/Women in Bletchley Park. Feel free to help out! Ethanbas (talk) 22:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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My first input to Wikipedia so please be gentle with me! On a recent Monday afternoon visit to BP we were struck by the numbers of young schoolchildren visiting on school trips, all of whom, presumably, learning about the history and importance of BP in WWII. I can imagine many cut and paste Wikipedia prose into school history assignments so the introduction/summary paragraphs need to be especially clear and accurate. The second paragraph of BP entry starts:
"According to the official historian of British Intelligence, the "Ultra" intelligence produced at Bletchley shortened the war by two to four years, and without it the outcome of the war would have been uncertain." The claims are attributed to Professor Sir Harry Hinsley, who actually worked at Bletchley from 1939 to 1946 and then went back to Cambridge and became Professor of [the] History of International Relations and Master of St John's College. He was also the official historian of British Intelligence in World War II. It is the second attributable clause I have issue with: "...and without it the outcome of the war would have been uncertain.". If one reads the attributed article, <"The Influence of ULTRA in the Second World War">, Hinsley is quoted as saying (twice) that: "And so in all that story you can see that the British survived the war with little benefit from Intelligence until the Germans invaded Soviet Russia. And since Soviet Russia survived the German invasion, and that invasion was followed by the entry of the United States in December '41, we can safely conclude that Germany was going to be defeated in the long run, even if the enormous expansion of Ultra from the summer of 1941 had not from that date given the Allies this massive superiority in Intelligence which they retained until the end of the war." and "Q. Would we have won the war without Ultra? My own view is that given that the Soviets survived the German attack and the Americans came in as they did, the combined forces of Russia, America and the British would eventually have won the war. The long term relative strengths of Germany and those three counties were such that Germany was bound to loose in the end. But how lengthily and with what damage and destruction we should have succeeded I don't know. I think we would have won but it would have been a long and much more brutal and destructive war."
So my contention is that this sentence needs amendment as Hinsley clearly did not believe the outcome of the war would have been uncertain, and is a rather massive claim in any case. I suggest this phrase simply be replaced with something like '...and potentially saved many millions of lives' and/or '...by providing the Allies with detailed intelligence from decrypted enemy communications', or something that really can be attributed to what Hinsley said. As I say, I am a Wikipedia newbie and have neither the skills or knowledge to take this any further myself but would nevertheless appreciate those that do consider my input appropriately so those schoolchildren learn the real BP story. It really needs no embellishment. IanF1UK (talk) 11:33, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
((geodata-check))
The following coordinate fixes are needed for
—104.219.136.47 (talk) 00:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
I think it could go into the popular culture section, here is what it does: https://searchengineland.com/figz/wp-content/seloads/2014/12/google-easter-egg-Bletchley-Park-1419342795.gif Sorry if this has already been talked about, this is *literally* my first suggestion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64Apples (talk • contribs) 15:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
So I noticed in some parts, it uses the "y" spelling of cipher instead of the "I" spelling of cipher. I feel like it should all be uniform, and it makes sense to use cipher with an I since it's more commonly used and the conclusion of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cryptography/Cipher_vs_Cypher#:~:text=In%20the%20published%20literature%20of,than%20the%20spelling%20%22cypher%22. was that cipher should be used. HOWEVER, the Government Code and Cypher School is mentioned many times in the article and uses the "y" spelling, and that's just the name of it so it can't be changed. What should happen? I'm not very, uh, experienced, to say the least. NickleSonic (talk) 18:23, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
It seems to me really odd to say that Bletchley Park is in Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, England. All we need is , United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way.
Bletchley is part of Milton Keynes (and has been so since 1967). Quite a large part, maybe an eighth, but still just a part and barely notable outside 50 mile radius in its own right (probably not at all but for BP).. We need to think of an international readership and not get bogged down in detail like this. IMO, the lead sentence should drop 'Bletchley' and at least one of 'Milton Keynes' or 'Buckinghamshire', probably the former for historical consistency (as it didn't exist '39-'45). Comments? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:04, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Please excuse my cheek but it occurred to me that watchers of this article may have book sources that may satisfy a ((citation needed)), please?
I haven't been able to find any citations online for the "New Bradwell Blitz", so I wonder if it ever actually happened? I haven't been able to find any citations online for this event, but it may be in a book that someone has? If so, would they please update the New Bradwell article and/or leave a note at talk:New Bradwell#New Bradwell Blitz - a myth?. Much obliged if you can help. TYVM. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
St Giles Street and St James Street New Bradwell ... 3 houses demolished, 165 houses damaged, 5 killed, 3 seriously and 17 slightly injured. Occurred between 19th and 21st October.). My thanks to everyone who looked. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)