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--- nah, it's incomplete. Not a joke. It's mostly true. (Think that I've been a Romanian for so many years, learnt other languages including Romance (Latin-originated) languages and never thought about the Balkans being the reason why we don't use infinitive anymore (other than some official-sounding legalese texts copied from French) and that we have the definite article at the end. Or that Bulgarian sounds like an older Russian (at least for us and Russians, not sure how it sounds for Bulgarians) but the -ta at the end clearly diferentiates it (and guess what, it was the definite article all along). At least now we know another way of tapping into the inner ancestors (Thracians / Dacians / Ilyrs) who lived here before the invaders of the last 2000 years. 24.203.68.10 (talk) 03:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
This article is joke.It may fool some Americans that never left US and have no idea of where the balkans are, but for everyone knowing the realities of the region it can be treated only as a joke.If such union exists, it goes as far as to the point that Serbian and Croat are essentially the same language as (Slavo)-Macedonian are more or less a dialect of Bulgarian. This is more of a propaganda article than anything else.Actually it must be noted that despite the fact that all these nations lived under a common ruler (Turks) they kept their native languages intact.
The syncretism examples are a joke, because anyone that knows the slightest of Greek knows that EVERYTHING goes into sycretism.
The loan words is another joke, because for example English, has much more greek words than any balkan language.The same word " sycretism" is a loan (συγκρητισμός!).
Τhe loss of the infinite in Greek is not complete.It's a lie.
Bare subjunctive constructions & Future tense formation- God, do your comparisons with other languages e.g scandinavian.Are they belonging to the Balkan Bund too?
Clitic pronouns - Again the example applied for Greek is wrong.
I wonder with the insistence of making something out of nothing.
Αργύρης Φωτόπουλος (Argyris Fotopoulos)
Is there any reason why the table of contents is aligned to the right in this article? It seems incongruous with the rest of Wikipedia. -Alexanderj 18:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you include a section about phonetics, as well? I mean mostly the middle "schwa" vowel.
What is "Serbian Torlak" in this article, by the way? Vassili Nikolaev 22:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not much of a linguistic buff (don't know what the different terms mean), but I added the sentences in Albanian. Some of them could have slightly different forms depending on the context in which you are using them, so if you want to make sure I'd have to know the version in language other than english (say italian or french). If you need any other sentences let me know. Dori | Talk 18:25, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
Xhamlliku 03:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Bogdan | Talk 19:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
in Bulgarian "къща" ъ is stressed and I doubt it should be called shwa. It is just specific bulgarian vowel, often stressed. Vassili Nikolaev 02:28, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Some comments on the Bulgarian examples. I'm not a specialist, just an user.
--Nk 16:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nk, Bulgarian sample shows that the same preposition is used in genitive and dative constructions, which is merging of genitive and dative in sense of surface structure, not morphological cases. Compare to English prepositions: Dadoh knigata na Mariya - I gave a book to Maria. Knigata e na Mariya - The book is of Maria. Vassili Nikolaev 19:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Classical Latin word for "table" (Romanian masǎ) was mensa, not "mesa": the form given here is incorrect. Though such a form would probably be found in Vulgar Latin . Alexander 007 10:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The Greek examples are wrong, and honestly, I believe that this 'Language Union' is more of a political idea than scientific. There are very few things linking Greek to any of the Slavic languages, linguistically speaking. Thanks, -=vyruss=- 14:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is not true that the greek is not part of this union. There are many similar features in both slavic (macedonian, bulgarian) and greek language. You need to be smart and have a basic knowledge og linguistics to understand and see them. They're all around..
Batzarov, Zdravko, Lindstedt, J., Du Nay, André, Grey Thomason, Joseph, Brian D., Kopitar, Jernej K., Rosetti, Alexandru, Russu, Ion, Tomić, Olga Mišeska, Winford, Donald
You call that a Neutral POV? Ancient greek have nothing in common with the slavic languages. Slavs came in the region later. Where are the greek references? I also agree that this 'Union' is more of a political idea than scientific, as it comes in the end, from the article. Have funm making up the history :) Kassianos
By the way, about serbocroattian-torlak, I know that dialect well, and I am not sure they use any article at all?? Never heard a word with an article in this dialect, but in contrary, they use one "general" case, which corresponds to all 7 "normal" cases in serbocroatian language.. Thanks;
Cao Dujo; Hvala za poziv da napisem nesto o torlackom dijalektu. Ja sam poreklom iz Makedonije i sreo sam mnogo ljudi (na faksu) iz Juzne Srbije, koji su govorili taj dijalekat. Mozda bih i mogao napisati nesto. Anyway, interesiraju me jezici i volim citati o tim temama. Cheers;
Has anyone attempted a kind of Balkanto, a conlang mixing features from the Balkan languages?
Can anyone explain why the term "Balkansprachbund" is used in the intro? Is this a common term for the BLU? If so, why? Nothing in the article explains its significance. --Bletch 18:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
WP policy says we use the most common name used in English. This is not necessarily an English-language name, for example, we have croissant, not "crescent roll"; calque, not "loan-translation"; dachshund, not "badger-dog"; and so on. So I did a few Google tests -- as usual, not definitive, but certainly suggestive:
.edu | G Scholar | G Books | Google % | .edu % | G Scholar % | G Books % | ||
Balkan sprachbund | 1030 | 97 | 117 | 85 | 69% | 66% | 59% | 43% |
Balkanisms | 268 | 30 | 43 | 51 | 18% | 20% | 22% | 26% |
Balkan linguistic league | 32 | 8 | 12 | 5 | 2% | 5% | 6% | 3% |
Balkan linguistic area | 29 | 4 | 10 | 23 | 2% | 3% | 5% | 12% |
Balkansprachbund | 25 | 2 | 11 | 27 | 2% | 1% | 6% | 14% |
Balkan linguistic union | 103 | 0 | 5 | 5 | 7% | 0% | 3% | 3% |
Balkan linguistic convergence | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0% | 1% | 1% | 1% |
Balkan linguistic alliance | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0% | 3% | 1% | 1% |
So it seems that the conclusion is pretty clear. The article should be renamed to "Balkan sprachbund". Discussion? --Macrakis 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Millosh, I think that "Serbian (mainly Torlak)" more accurately reflects the usage; it doesn't say that it's incorrect in standard language, but that it's more frequent in Torlak dialect. You will seldom hear bare subjunctive in the north and west; imperative (yes, I'm aware of the difference) is more often used in similar contexts. On the other hand, it is true that the construct exceeds the borders of Torlakian dialects. For example:
while semantics of the three are not identical, I'd estimate that #1 will be heard further south, while #2 will be preferred in north; #3 might be heard as well, but it more resembles western (Croatian/Bosnian) usage in my ears. Duja 12:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
There's a fine section in Grammatical mood#Admirative mood article which suggests that this, originally Turkish, mood has influenced Albanian, Macedonian and/or Bulgarian. It looks like a Balkansprachbund issue, and if so, it should be mentioned in this article as well. (I'm not sure whether renarrative mood is the same thing, so I put the merge tag). Duja 15:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I corrected γομάρι < γομάριον and λ(ε)ιβάδι < λιβάδιον < λιβάς < *λιψ < λείβω. Now from the table it looks like greek words are from ancient greek only but ofcourse this is not true. greek have many words from other languages, mainly from turkish, venetian, italian, french, albanian and latin (english words are very recent in the vocabulary). I tried for more than an hour to find a slavic word but I failed (I dont say there are no slavic words, I say I cant find any. (the only I found is πούτσος and even that disputed) --Lucinos 02:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, in trying to look up this reference I've had some difficulty... Is the reference to a paper in the book described by ISBN 9042013222 ? If so, it should be noted that the editors are: Dicky Gilbers, John Nerbonne, Jos Schaeken.
should probably be something like:
I'm really trying to find the paper and am having some difficulty.... - FrancisTyers 14:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
the Latin word mensa, mesa should be removed. it is inherited in Romanian, which would make its appearance in Bulgarian and Macedonian a borrowing from Romanian.
the word magar in the brief vocabulary chart should be removed as well. it does not come from Thracian/Illyrian (which are most certainly not related languages!). instead, the word is borrowed in all the languages ultimately from Albanian magar "ass, donkey", with many dialectal variants including margaç, magjar, gomar, gumar. this word is believed to come from an earlier hypothetical *margar, from *margë, borrowed from Germanic marh "horse" (cf. E mare, OHG marh "horse", marha "mare", etc.).
Flibjib8 23:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Vowel harmony does not, as far as I know, exist in Balkan Greek (it has been reported in strongly turcified Greek dialects of pre-1922 Anatolia, but that is beside the point).
Source - "Съвременен български език, Задачи и текстове за упражнения" издателство "Наука и изкуство", Петър Пашов, Венче Попова, Христо Първев, pages 182 and 183. The examples in this book are from Bulgarian authors, there are many examples I will cite only a few:
I will try and find out not only the authors but also the names of the works. It is understandable why these forms sound weird to you (and to me also). They are dialectical and I wanted to include them to illustrate that this infinitive form does not always coincide with the past aorist tense. Arath 09:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Along the lines in this conversation, please make it a little more clear that some of these forms, especially "nedei ya" and "nedei zna" are not only dialectal, but archaic and of no frequent usage, and thus of interest only to historical linguists. There are more current examples, and I can contribute some if you'd like me to (I'm a native Bulgarian speaker, particularly of eastern dialects). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.31.177 (talk) 01:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Features should IMHO be mentioned early: brief in the intro, and directly after the intro as a short list. It is not too easy to read a long history and statistics of various degrees of "belongingness", and much later hear what features constitutes the sprachbund. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 21:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Examples would be nice. Fnugh (talk · contribs)
In modern Romanian, "femeie" is the word, not "muiere" (this latter one would logically mean woman, but in a degrading or redneckish way, like "broad" in English, so don't use) 24.203.68.10 (talk) 03:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I wondering How albanian word for teacher "mësues" is connected with source word "διδάσκαλος (didáskalos)"? in the table for Loan words. Other question for there is why not all words on greek do not have some phonetical explain? Николов (talk) 07:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I was browsing through this article and it is very odd to see many features in Romanian compared to the Balkan languages, as they would be exclusive to the languages in this part of Europe. For example „locative and directional expressions”: „in Greece and into Greece” both translate in Romanian as „în Grecia”, but what makes this different from Italian „andiamo in Grecia”/„siamo in Grecia? Then the „bare subjunctive constructions”, like „să te duci”: in what is that different to Spanish „que te largas”, that also has imperative meaning? Or for the grades of comparation of the adjectives: in what is „bun, mai bun, cel mai bun” different from „bueno, mas bueno, el mas bueno” (Spanish) or „buono, più buono, il più buono„ (Italian)? Then the analytic perfect tense, „am promis”, in what is that different to Italian „ho promesso" or Spanish „he prometido”? Moreover, we can build past in Romanian in a simple way „promisei” (Romanian)-„prometí” (Spanish), „noi terminarăm” (Romanian)/-„noi terminammo” (Italian). Of course similar features can be found in Balkan lanauges (as they can be found in English or German also), but my feeling is that this article is meant to promote this features as Balkan features, while they are (at least in Romanian) inherited from Vulgar Latin as they were inherited in Italian, Spanish, French or Portuguese.--Danutz (talk) 18:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
"isterim yazayım" In Standard Turkish in Turkey this is "yazmak istiyorum" where "yazmak" is the infinitive.
In Azerbaijani Turkish, you can say: istəyirəm yazım. Azerbaijan is located in Caucasia. --85.102.184.166 (talk) 06:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Έδωσα το βιβλίο της Μαρίας.
that really means: I gave Maria's book (to "someone", left unspecified)
anyway most of the article is just wrong. And I mean really, badly messed up. it should be tagged and re-written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.71.250 (talk) 04:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
According to the Balkan Languages Evolution map, most of Dobruja from the 14th to 18th century was Romanian speaking. But is this really true? As far as I know (I may be wrong), Dobruja in that time period was inhabited by Turks, Tatars, Bulgarians, and Romanians, with none forming a majority.--Frglz (talk) 07:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
this must be joke. there is no mention of albanians before michail ataliota, dechani hrisovulji and turkish defters. also genetically they don't belong to balkans since their main haplogroup is the north african E1b1b. the german linguist Gustav Meyer has found that albanian language has about 400 words of it's own. the rest of the words are mostly vlach, than slavic, than turkish. whoever is pushing this idea i would recommend the eupedia haplogroups research. lay off of that 19th century national-romanticism.89.205.2.27 (talk) 00:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Maybe you should google albanian genetics again. It's not E1b1b. If Albanians don't "belong to balkans" - then a lot other "don't belong to balkans too", for example greeks, south italians etc. But you were also claiming other ridiculous stuff. Your comment should have been deleted. Get your facts RIGHT pls.
However, here's THE REAL SOURCE: ■ "Etymological Dictionary of the Albanian Language" , Strasbourg 1891 - Gustav Meyer [from 1891. >>>A LOT happnd since 1891.]
■ And here is a QUICK UPDATE: "... in this Dictionary, the first of its kund for Albanian, he analyzed >>5140 WORDS and ASSERTED that only 400 OF THEM were of DIRECT INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGIN, THE REST being LOANWORDS or of UNKNOWN ORIGIN. By stressing the Latin influence in Albanian he came to CONCLUSION that Albanian was a SEMI-ROMANCE language, >>A HYPOTHESIS THAT IS NOE GENERALLY REJECTED."<<
Pls quote from a trustful source and make sure you quote correctly. Bc Gustav Meyer did not analyze "ALL" albanian words or the entire albanian language - but 5140 albanian words. Albanian vocabulary is HUGE. Despite the fact that his Hypothesis is generally rejected. Albanology moved a little bit further since then. Stop spreading such albanaphobic claims. Remember that arvanitika and gheg is also a thing. If you want to judge albanian language - then learn and study it - like linguists do. If not - don't feel free to come up with such lies and insults. Thanks! ILYHDRAB (talk) 13:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
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In the section with this heading we read:
It has been pointed out that there are postposed articles in Northern Russian dialects, and so the second sentence is not entirely accurate. It struck me that, since the feature is found only in some of the Slavic languages of the Balkan sprachbund and in Romanian, geographically close to Bulgarian, and in Albanian, geographically close to Macedonian, this might be a specifically Slavic feature which has found its way into Romanian and Albanian. I have no special knowledge of the history of the Slavic languages. Can anyone more knowledgeable tell us whether this feature was at one time more widespread in them? Or has the feature arisen independently at the northern and southern extremes of their range? LynwoodF (talk) 20:59, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"For example, the word "ripen" (as in fruit) is constructed in Albanian, Romanian and (rarely) in Greek (piqem, a (se) coace, ψήνομαι)"
I have never heard this use of the word ψήνομαι ever, and am quite sure it is completely off base. As others have mentioned, many of the Greek examples are quite frankly wrong. This entry requires thorough re-examination in all the cases Greek is mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atmilios (talk • contribs) 14:25, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
We should definitely leave the Prizren-Timok or Torlakian dialects in the sprachbund, but I don't see how Shtokavian/'Serbo-Croatians' significantly relates to the sprachbund apart from some vocabulary. --Beat of the tapan (talk) 06:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
In section 4.1.4.3 Clitic pronouns There is a paragraph which ends thusly:
→"Southwest Macedonia appears to be the location of innovation."
The lack of citation for this statement combined with its use of weasel words makes it feel very dubious to me. Can anyone provide a citation for this? If not I'll delete it in a few days. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 13:05, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
It's really wrong that Greek doesn't distinguish direction. It absolutely does. Προς is equivalent of "towards" and σε is equivalent of "to". I'm not sure if I should correct it and leave it there or if it should be trashed entirely, it's a bad example LightningLighting (talk) 16:23, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
According to the current version: "The term "Balkan language area" was coined by the Romanian linguist Alexandru Rosetti in 1958..."
The current version does not specify the source of the information. Although according to other sources, the term was coined as early as 1923 by the Russian linguist Nikolai Trubetzkoy. At that time, it was only in Russian (языковой союз), but it was translated into German for a linguistic conference in 1928, when the term Sprachbund was created. So how could Rosetti have invented it if it existed 30 years before him? Or are we talking about a different term?
sources:
- Trubetzkoy, Nikolai S, Vavilonskaja bašnja i smešenie jazykov. Evrazijskij Vremennik, (1923)
- Trubetzkoy, Nikolai S. (1930), "Proposition 16. Über den Sprachbund", Actes du premier congrès international des linguistes à la Haye, du 10-15 avril 1928, Leiden: A. W. Sijthoff, p. 17-18 (1930)
- Viacheslav A. Chirikba - The problem of the Caucasian Sprachbund p. 25-94 (2008)
- Oliver Winistörfer - A multi-variate approach to the ‘prototypical’ case of language contact p. 1 (2020) Enlightenment1685 (talk) 07:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Why is διδάσκαλος designated as Byzantine Greek word? After all it is an ancient Greek word, used by e.g. Plato (in the Protagoras, in the Alcibiades, in the Gorgias and other dialogues) and Lysias with the same meaning, i.e. teacher. Clearly a word used in classical ancient Greek. I understand that λιβάδιον could be considered Byzantine, although it is used by Plutarch, because its meaning has shifted; Plutarch uses the word not to mean meadow but a small stream. But there's no such shift in meaning of διδάσκαλος. So is there a reason it isn't desiganted ancient Greek that I have missed? 89.160.209.172 (talk) 11:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)