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We only have one witness to the sounds of explosions, but we have several witnesses saying that the fires were raging in WTC7, and no images to support those except the one photo which shows smoke but no flames and from which the origin of the smoke cannot be determined. This seems like a bias towards the official account. There should be an equal number of accounts for both the official story and those questioning the official story. We should get a photo of the WTC towers squibs as well, since the one for WTC7 is so small 198.207.168.65 00:59, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the same thing about the witness statements and agree that some should probably either be added or removed. Maybe removed would be better because we could pile up statements a mile long. SkeenaR 01:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The word "claims" is used throughout the article. In my mind, using it implies that the statement is incorrect. For example, there's a distint difference in tone between "MisterHand stated that he didn't know who ate the last donut" and "MisterHand claimed that he didn't know who ate the last donut." Maybe I'm way off here, but if we could I'd like to come up with a reasonable substitution. -- MisterHand 04:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
If I could remark on some of the things in this section, it's not clear to me that everything here is "inconsistent". The last in particular is striking; if I understand the current version's claim, it seems that an editor is claiming that it is inconsistent for US officials to say that flying planes into buildings was unthinkable, but yet there were a couple of scattered reports and a Tom Clancy novel suggesting it could happen. Forgive me, but that's a bit thin. I'm sure that some crazy stuff shows up in those intelligence reports, and surely noone is claiming that the administration should base security policy on Tom Clancy's analysis. I think, in all fairness, before 9/11 the idea was pretty much inconceivable.
On the other hand, there are some true inconsistencies reported in this section, and these should stay. --Deville (Talk) 23:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see this post until today. Sure I'll find some sources for the article. In the meantime, if you would rather not take my word for it, look it up for yourself. Like I said, I saw Peter Jennings talking about it and it was in a special report. I'll find something in the next day or two if you don't get to it first. SkeenaR 00:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is something. FRom Bov actually.
"FBI agents acknowledged under cross-examination that the bureau knew years before Sept. 11 that al-Qaida had plans to use planes as missiles to destroy prominent buildings. They also acknowledged numerous missed opportunities in the months before Sept. 11 to catch two of the hijackers with terrorist links known to the government, even though the pair frequently used their own names in the U.S. to rent cars, buy plane tickets and even, once, to file a police report after one got mugged." [2]
SkeenaR 00:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
An article on rogerebert.com mentions the Columbine shooters fantasized in 1998 about crashing a plane into NYC.Emerson, Jim "911, or Dial V for Columbine" RogerEbert.com April 5, 2006 Шизомби 02:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Well the article where cites that from is [3] it is interesting, but I don't think it should necescarily go in this article as it is not really a conspiracy theory. Can anyone suggest a more appropriate 9/11 page?--DCAnderson 02:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
All other conspiracy theories can step aside. Apparently there were really no planes at all. [5] --Zero 03:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
First, who exactly claims this? I think this requires citation.
Second, Words to avoid supports my position that 'note' is inappropriate here:
Please let me know what you think. Tom Harrison Talk 16:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
READ THIS [6]
ILovEPlankton 19:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
While this article presents many theories and support for those theories, what it lacks is a balanced view to make it NPOV. I suggest that we follow the Claims and Rebuttals approach used in the Apollo moon landing hoax accusations article to balance the content. Thoughts? Morton devonshire 06:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
A simple but incomplete example: Claim: There were no planes . . . etc. Rebuttal: According to the NY Times, 10,000 people witnessed the second plane flying into the WTC . . . . etc. Morton devonshire 18:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
That would be a Strawman argument. The issue here is that the article is POV. To help make it NPOV a Cause and Rebuttal format would assist. BTW, this article is edited by lots of people, so don't bother trying to stake it out as your own. Morton devonshire 20:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
First, when did i say it was my own? Second, it would be much easier if you tell us (notice the word us, not me) what parts specifically are not NPOV, or is it everything, in which case go ahead and rewrite the whole article your self. ILovEPlankton 20:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have thoughts about use of the Claims and Rebuttals approach? Thanks. Morton devonshire 01:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have thoughts about use of the Claims and Rebuttals approach? Thanks. Morton devonshire 19:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I don't think it is a very good idea. It seems unencyclopedic somehow. It would give the article the appearance of a debate. Also, the article could easily end up five miles long with countless rebuttals for each side. I think that the kind of overview in the article the way it is now is more suitable for this topic. SkeenaR 23:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Glad I could help. SkeenaR 00:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at the Apollo Moon Landing Hoax Accusations article, and it does have a much better flow and ease of navigation for the reader. There are difficulties involved in simply applying the same format to this article, mostly in the foreknowledge section.
Perhaps what the article needs is a clearer picture of exactly what it is the conspiracy theorists are suggesting and how those claims or suggestions fit into the bigger conspiracy picture. In other words, the article could use some organization editing. There are plenty of statements that are presented to the reader without any reference to its meaning. For example, the witness testimony point in regards to the collapse tells the reader that some of the people at the scene said the word bomb or explosion, and simply leaves it at that. Further explanation could be provided to inform the reader how conspiracy theorist generate their ideas based on these statements as well as providing sources to the reader for evidence on how these statements are not as unique to this particular event as some theorists would have them believe.
Another example is the point about the building falling in roughly 30 foot sections. What does this mean? Why is this here? Because conspiracy theorists believe it fell that way based on demolition charges spaced around the building to aid in the cleanup efforts. I suppose it could be that, or maybe it's because the longest beam around the building was 38 feet.
This wouldn’t exactly be a claim and rebuttal format, but would clearly state the point conspiracy theorist push followed by an examination of that particular point, including common misconceptions and misunderstandings. A good example currently in the article is the recent claim, “United 93 landed safely.” After a few revisions, it now points out a statement some conspiracy theorists have suggested followed by a few bullets on why that statement contains factual inaccuracies and lacks credibility.
I’ll take a look and see what I can come up with. If the consensus becomes, “We hate it! Revert!"...we can always go back to this format.--Doctor9 22:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The section titled "Government foreknowledge" could use some reference and/or "see also" link to PDB (Presidential Daily Brief) for August 6, 2001. 14:19, 18 March 2006
We need a citation to someone saying the kinetic energy was seven times what was designed for. Tom Harrison Talk 00:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Why was this [7] removed? Its the biggest view that has been called a conspicracy theory, and it needs to be stated. --Striver 11:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
No problem. But do you really think we need that much about Sheen? Especially cut and pasted from a newspaper? It has less to do with the section title than with a newspaper writer insinuating people have gone "bonkers" and act "bizarre". Current events gossip. Looks like a POV addition to me. Not worthy of an encyclopedia. SkeenaR 20:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed your newspaper article is from the gossip section. There must be something more appropriate than adding a gossip article. SkeenaR 21:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The last version I had was encompassing, concise, to the point, linked to the original interview, and non-POV. I would like an explanation as to the insistence of including a whole cut-and-paste garbage gossip article. SkeenaR 23:08, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't speak for Patsw, but I think it's important to include as much of Sheen's quote as we can. Just taking out the part that says, "I support controlled demolition" without including anything else, gives a distorted view. We need to be able to read, "Just show us how this particular plane pulled off these maneuvers . . ." to see what prompts his disblief, and "It is up to us to reveal the truth. It is up to us because we owe it to the families, we owe it to the victims..." to understand his motivation. Tom Harrison Talk 23:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Include his quotes than. Even better, a link to the interview as well, like the one deleted. But why cut-and-paste noxious refuse like this into the article? I think its ridiculous. I will wait for a response before reverting(and adding more quotes as per your statement). SkeenaR 23:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I didn't see the link to the interview. I support including that, but we need a transcript or some text of the quotes. We can't pick and choose what quotes to use, or produce a transcript ourselves. I think we need some news article to refer to. It doesn't have to be the Post. Tom Harrison Talk 23:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll find the transcript at Prisonplanet later unless someone else wants to do it in the meantime. There are lots of articles all over about it right now too. SkeenaR 00:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the way Doctor9 has it is adequate. SkeenaR 00:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The Doctor is in. SkeenaR 02:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the doctor goes through and tries to refute every other sentence in the text buried amidst his many changes, with statements from the commission, etc. Look closely. It inspires me to continue to improve it all. 198.207.168.65 02:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed what you are talking about. Good formatting and stuff though. This is helpful. SkeenaR 02:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I see some of the changes I made have been noticed. That didn’t take long. Now we’ll see if the edit war SkeenaR predicted will surface.
My goal in reworking a lot of the article was to provide a better flow and a better picture for the reader. It’s certainly not my intention to refute every sentence in the article. Likewise, the objective of validating these claims should not be a goal either. As mentioned in previous discussions, this is simply an article about conspiracy theories.
The idea I had in mind as I reworked the financial section was to outline there were elements of suspicious market activity followed with a description of what action and analysis had been done. The reader can clearly get the basis of the claim without reading “put options were purchased for AMR and UAL” two or three times. The Mindy Kleinberg quote forces the reader to take this same statement, which was the point of the section to begin with, and re-read the same points—there was suspicious trading activity; that’s not disputed. It is for this reason government investigators and private financial firms looked into it.
Part of the examination of these claims is to understand how officials responded to these suspicions. Clearly, if investigators say they traced the trades to non-criminal activities, conspiracy theorists will have a response; it’s why the claim still exists. This came with, “They provided no explanation for how trading on a worldwide basis could have been examined and determined to be innocuous.” & “Numerous Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 express doubts that the Commission was actually able to explain worldwide trading patterns around the 9/11 attacks.” Yet, in the same addition, an article describing how the SEC sought the help of numerous security firms is highlighted. This could further be followed up with a review of privacy laws and public disclosure policies and how they relate to financial investors and their trading companies; instead we get sinister connotations attached to this as the reader is provided with Ruppert’s “expertise” on the issue. Of course, it doesn’t benefit Ruppert or Hoffman to have any of these trades to be discovered as innocuous…book sales depend on how well these theories hold up. It is naturally expected there will be a sinister, conspiratorial response in situations such as these. We find the same “unprecedented trading activity” surrounding the London bombings. [8] If the US were to be attacked again, we would see more claims of insider trading and suspicious market activity.
When I put part of the Commission’s response to the option market trades in the section, I merely cited an example. Brevity was one of my concerns. Part of the difficulty with a conspiracy page such as this is the constant desire to “get in the last word.” A never ending list of “however” followed by “however” followed by “however” forces itself into the article.
Just some thoughts. Although, I am glad I could inspire 198.207.168.65 to assist in improving the article and keeping these edits in check. --Doctor9 05:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
>>"Now we’ll see if the edit war SkeenaR predicted will surface." Guess it is. Reverting back to one version over and over won't be the solution here. Bov
What about the claim(s) that most of the jet fuel from the planes burned in the first few minutes after impact, and/or exploded out of the building? I've seen claims that FEMA's report stated that the jet fuel burned quickly, leaving only office debris to burn. Actually, The whole issue of jet fuel is completely avoided. I think that this is one of the most compelling arguments of these theories, but this page is more of an article about the 'debunkable' aspects of the theories. This article is very much unneutral, it should't contain counterarguments to the theories, but only the theories, with links to a separate page with that info. The main problem with the article is that the authors of it seem to pick and choose which arguments to write about, which happen those that are semi-explainable. This behaviour is ironically similar to a traditional conspiracy theorist's, in that 'rational arguments' are ignored, and only those which protect their theories are stated. Finally, I think that there is not enough diversity in the claims, which suggests that all theories are one big theory held by most claimants. This is not the case, and it isn't a good thing. I personally do not believe the official story, but I am certainly on the fringes of the theories. I simply belive that there are problems with the official account, mainly with the fanatical devotion to it by some.mpbx 10:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Just a few thoughts on the current edit regarding World Trade Center Seven. As previous discussions touched on not validating these claims, it appears this section is turning into a persuasion piece on the demolition theory.
Redundancy is fairly widespread given the size of the section:
The section lacks an introduction for the reader as to what direction it is headed, instead we jump right into a look at the FEMA report followed by an analysis from an anonymous commentator on the flaws with the report. I don’t have a problem with mentioning errors with a certain publication, but I’m sure we can find a better source, perhaps one with some credentials.
I suppose I could be way off base, but I doubt the reader needs a full understanding of these paragraphs to learn about World Trade Center Seven conspiracy theories. Let’s keep in mind the title of the article.
The editor touched on the pull comment by adding that “to pull” or “to pull down” meant to demolish. The dictionary reference provided simply refers to “pull down.” The quote in question doesn’t read as “pull down.”
And finally the edit sums up drawing the reader to the one and only conclusion with, “All these remarks lead to the supposition that Building Seven collapsed as the result of a controlled demolition.”
The current revision reads like a fifth grade book report.--Doctor9 00:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand that the purpose of this page and the section on building seven is to explain the theories other than the official explanation rather than being a debate about the validity of those theories. However, in the explanation of these theories, the official explanation is shown to be wrong or lacking in some way to convince the readers that an alternative theory is needed. I made recent edits to the building seven section that included ommitted information from the official explanation. The information I added was done to correct the assumptions being made in its absence. There was severe damage to building seven and there is firthand testimony of that (and photos). There is also testimony of the building being monitored for movement hours before its collapse and a collapse zone being created because of that monitoring. To me, it would be disingenuous to ignore those facts and thereby mislead people into buying into a theory that really doesn't make sense. Wikipedia should be a place where people can go to find the truth about these things and not be misled by theories that intentionally disregard important pieces of information - in fact, the theory depends upon that information being ignored. I think it's fair to show both sides of the story in a neutral point of view way. Until my additions, the section was very one-sided and ignored important facts to sell itself. Perhaps I'm being to idealistic, but I think the truth should win over a theory. Also, I believe it is relevant to include what people who oppose these theories have to say about them - this gives more credibility to the article and neutralize it's point of view. --Rcronk 16:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Silverstein could not have meant to pull out the firefighters. According to a NIST member, the FEMA report, and a New York Times article, there was no firefighting in Building 7. www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/050106silversteinanswers.htm
CB Brooklyn 03:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Lots of things have been refuted by lots of people, at least to my satisfaction. This page is about 9/11 conspiracy theories, not about only credible theories, or only 'mainstream-alternative' theories. Tom Harrison Talk 02:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with duplication in the WTC7 section. SkeenaR 02:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Thierry Meyssan is being given undue importance at the start of the article. Historically he played a role because his book was first, but he didn't 'start' the movement, by any means, and it is biased that everyone else is relegated to an external link in that section while his role is highlighted inappropriately. Ask any 9/11 researcher who the most important people are and have been in the movement and virtually NONE will say Meyssan -- most will say Griffin. Meyssan has never attended the multiple US or Canadian 9/11 conferences, has not done presentations in the US, has not done any significant radio interviews, has not had videos made of his talks, has not continued to even be active in 9/11 following his 2 books, has a minimal presence even on wikipedia . . . take a look at his listing on the 9/11 researchers page -- no one even bothers to refute the points that are written there because no one actually cares to defend someone who is not even active and hasn't been for years, and whose points are no longer even supported (truck bombs and missiles):
Thierry Meyssan
Thierry Meyssan a French political activist and author of the book L'Effroyable Imposture (The Frightening Fraud) ISBN 1592090265. He was one of the first to suggest a truck bomb or a missile—instead of a plane—hit the Pentagon, but he did not travel from Paris to Washington to interview any of the eyewitnesses. Many other researchers have come to the conclusion that this was an effort to distract from undisputed evidence such as the fact the Pentagon was struck in the mostly empty, under "reconstruction" part, which minimized casualties (thousands could have been killed if any other "wedge" had been hit).
So to then have an entire paragraph devoted to him and his book at the start of the page is simply misrepresentative of the relevance of his work in the movement -- it should be mentioned in a historical area, not at the front of the article. Griffins books, DVDs and essays are far more widely known and circulated in the movement.
I suggest that the Meyssan paragraph be significantly revised or removed. Bov 19:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Eliminating the Meyssan portion of the article doesn’t mean his book was never published. It was a major first step in the conspiracy movement; the book was a best seller in France as well as around the globe. Simply because Griffin is the more well known American in the movement does not negate the rhetoric of Meyssan. His views may be controversial, but the whole article is controversial. Bov mentioned other similar individuals in regards to other theories receiving about two lines of attention; Meyssan has been given the same here.--Doctor9 02:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
are the editors of this page aware of this article by Popular Mechanics [10]. it could be useful if this site moves into a Claims and Rebuttal format. Anthonymendoza 17:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to challange the neutrality of this article. I feel that the conspiracy theories are given too much weight to the point of it becoming a Soapbox.The Policy States:
This sounds like one more vote for a claim-rebuttal format. Rcronk 18:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this means anything, but I clearly remember sending and receiving email messages via palm.net while flying between the east and west coasts less than a year after 9/11. It was at night, and I noticed that if I could see the lights of a large city, I could usually get a pretty good signal. Other experience suggests that palm.net's tower network was less extensive than the cell phone network at that time, so cellphones arguably could have worked at least as well if the plane was within eyeshot of a city or metro area. (Yes, I was bad and disregarded the "please turn off all electronic devices" signs. I figured that if the transmissions were causing issues, there would be some kind of re-emphasis on the PA about turning off all electronic devices – but there never was.) --Woozle 12:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
That's a pretty useful google page Tom. Interestingly, there are studies that seem to support both sides of the issue too.[12] SkeenaR 01:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one that thinks the following phrase lacks meaning, and should be removed:
--Morton devonshire 01:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
My issue with Griffin is that he is not an expert in this field, has no academic training to render opinions on these subjects, and has no qualifying experience. According to WP:RS, that means he's not a reliable source. Plus the phrase that you're attached to is the kind of thing an Eighth Grader writes when he wants to sound sophisticated -- meaningless and verbose. Morton devonshire 01:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know much about Griffin. I looked at some of his debate with Cberlet. What have you got against him, seriously. It's not like he sounds retarded as you two insinuate. SkeenaR 05:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
In the first several years after the attacks the business relationship between the two families and the fact that members of the Bin Ladin Family were allowed to leave shortly after the attacks were discussed often. This discussion has just about evaporated these days both in Wikipedia and elsewhere. It seems the “controlled explosion” theory is taking up most of the mental energy of people these days. I am not at all saying that the controlled explosion theory should not be discussed but it should not be at the expense of other topics. Like the controlled explosion theory there is controversy about this topic. We do have a claims against the Saudi’s and a Motives section that might be used to discuss this topic. 19:23, 2 April 2006 (EK)
This article is messy beyond belief. All the internet citations need to be moved to their proper places directly next to the relevant sentences instead of being referenced at the bottom. More subsections need to be created. Any deleted/copyrighted images must be removed. I've never seen an article with so many problems of this nature. I don't know how much time I'll have in the coming month; can someone else help fix these issues?? Grandmasterka 09:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
>>All the internet citations need to be moved to their proper places directly next to the relevant sentences instead of being referenced at the bottom.
>>I've never seen an article with so many problems of this nature.
There is an inherent bias in the new allegation/rebuttal format in favor of the rebuttals. The official mainstream POV always gets the last word in response to an allegation under this version. -- James