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Just for reference, the legal name on my birth certificate is "James Patrick Howard, II" and my father is "James Patrick Howard".
Whoever deleted this reference is completely wrong. The wife of Mr. John Doe, Jr. is indeed Mrs. John Doe, Jr.
Please refer to Emily Post's Etiquette if you won't take my word for it.
Quill 20:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-Although I suppose it's possible it's highly non-traditional and unusual, especially if the suffix is a roman numeral type. The family name does not really include the suffix. The suffix comes after the family name. While I'm sure it's been done before to include the suffix in a family name when changing a name for a marriage I can't help but think it's... incorrect usage because a suffix is factually NOT a family name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.136.195 (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
"Mrs. John Doe, Jr." is correct because it may be thought of as "Mrs. (John Doe, Jr.)". Her own name may be Jane Doe, but by using her husband's name, she is referring to herself by her relationship to John, not her own name.Duane on Wikipedia 19:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duane-light (talk • contribs)
The article states that neither tradition not etiquette decide whether names are promoted (III to Jr., Jr. to Sr., etc.) upon the death of the eldest member of the chain. However, other sources suggest that it is traditional to be promoted. Should I change it, or do others disagree? --ComplexZeta 21:04, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)
According to Miss Manners, "Everyone does move up a notch."
-- Martin, Judith (1991). Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior pp. 31-32. New York: Galahad Books. ISBN 0-88-365-781-3.
Jonathunder 05:35, 2004 Dec 2 (UTC)
Promotion doesn't make any actual legal sense. Since the suffix is typically encoded on the birth certificate, credit record, legal papers, etc., changing from "Junior" to "Senior" or "III" to "Junior" would require a legal name change. I suspect it just doesn't happen much anymore at all. --Chetfarmer (talk) 13:23, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Clarification and/or expansion is needed here. What about the use of primus and secundus? And is such use limited to boys? Quill 22:02, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know the history of how the convention of naming subsequent generations with numbered suffixes came about in the U.S. as it is almost non-existant in other English speaking countries (ther than aristo's of course)? 86.136.27.54 13:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
So there is debate in my family as to the proper customs when a generation is skipped. If the father is not named after his predecessors (ie. NOT named john smith III) can his son pick up the number where it was left off? Or would the new son be considered the first?
One should note an interesting scenario that co-exists between two branches of the Astor family, the American and the British branch. Within the Astor family, many male-line descendants of John Jacob Astor have been named in his honor in both branches and skipping generations. The practice for the Astor family is to assign the next suffix (IV, V, VI, etc.) to the net individual born who is named John Jacob Astor. As a result, it is not uncommon to have sequential numerals be held by distance cousins. One possible reason for this practice could be due to the prominence of the family internationally so as to avoid having to living individuals sharing the same suffix and both being well known to the public. This is obviously not a concern for the average family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.32.133.73 (talk) 01:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Modern usage does not require a comma before "Jr." Most American newspapers and news magazines, in fact, following the Associated Press Stylebook, leave out the comma. Acsenray 17:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
My father has the same first name and middle initial as I do, however different middle name.
I know it's not right, but I happen to consider myself "Robert J. Salender, II"
I don't think it is right to be a junior by middle initial... just by middle name. So that's why I do this.
But it's completely wrong.
Most businesses want first name and middle initial. They are both "Robert J." for my father and me, so what am I supposed to do?
Rjsec4ever 07:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Merriam Webster online states that "Junior" is a suffix used to distinguish between family members with the same given name, and it elsewhere defines "middle name" as anything that follows the given name and preceeds the family name. Consquently, using "Jr." when only the first names are identical is acceptable according to the Webster's Dictionary definition. By contrast, the Wikipedia standard seems to require identical first and middle names. 71.191.247.254 (talk) 19:47, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
...how does a father add "Sr." to his name(by court-ordered name-change?), when he names his son after himself?--Anglius 01:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Where should the suffix be placed when the name is rendered in "Last, First" order? Should it be "Williams, Hank Jr." or should it be "Williams Jr., Hank"? Or is there not really a definite guideline? A Pattern O 15:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have always seen it as, to use your example, Williams Jr., Hank. That is the suffix stays attached to the last name. However, I cannot source this. 152.121.18.38 12:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's the way the US government does it, at least for passports. I'm looking at mine right now... - Acq3 (talk) 07:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I was always taught that it would be "Williams, Hank Jr." Mainly because Jr is not part of his last name; it is a suffix. Also because "Last, First" lists are mostly used for alphabetization. With your method, a computer-sorted list would show: Williams Jr, Hank; Williams Jr, Henry; Williams, Hank; Williams, Henry
while the following seems more correct: Williams, Hank; Williams, Hank Jr; Williams, Henry; Williams, Henry Jr. Of course, Uncle Sam never makes mistakes .... Mmmonica (talk) 02:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that most of the details about post-nominal letters could be moved to that article and this article could provide just a summary. Nurg (talk) 20:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, but suffixes of the form "junior","the younger", "the third" et cetera ought to remain here.128.86.151.46 (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
The scheme described as "two's compliment" appears to be more what is known as a "one's compliment" system. I never heard of "two's compliment" with regard to name suffixes, but if it does have any basis in actual usage, it was misnamed. When the next lower number from positive zero is negative zero, that described a one's compliment system and not a two's compliment system. -L.Smithfield (talk) 01:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I think a source of confusion in the article is that if fails to distinguish cases in which generational suffixes (Jr, Sr, II, III) are part of a person's legal name or not. It should be obvious that if the suffix is used informally (as a nickname), there is more leeway in adding it or changing (e.g., George W. Bush as George Bush Jr.). But if the suffix is part of one's legal name, any changes are more difficult, since it would need to go through a legal process.
I added a short paragraph, but I thing the whole section could be reworked considering such distinction. Some of the discussion becomes moot with such proper distinction (e.g. one nicknamed Junior can move up to become Senior upon the death of the father if his family wanted, but not if "Junior" is part of his legal name). Just my two cents. --75.36.183.212 (talk) 23:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Full legal name means an individual's first name, middle name(s), and last name or surname, without use of initials or nicknames.
The following claim was added by User:EEEThomas1:
In some American cultures, it is considered disrespectful for a son to move up from Jr. to Sr.
This moving up, actually erases the thought or memory of the Father or Senior family member in the tree line which causes the confusion and is more or less a slap in the face to the Senior because it states there was no other Senior before the son who moved up.
This definitely causes confusion on family trees when family members are trying to trace their roots.
I am not convinced of this and would like to see some reliable sources to support this claim. --Jc3s5h (talk) 00:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The following talk contributions were made on talk:Junior, at times when that page had already been (and presuambly still was) a Dab page. They were off topic there, and have been struck thru. They may be relevant here. (The box was added by me for clarity of attribution status.)
--Jerzy•t 01:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
So if, for example, John Smith (with no middle names) is the father of John Paul Smith, then what is the correct way to refer unambiguously to the father? -- Smjg 11:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The definition says 'They are sometimes also called II, '. I had heard that 'II' refered to being named after an uncle, not the father. Any truth to this?
69.221.67.242 12:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The article states:
Importantly, Sr is never used by a man.
This is surprising to me as I know men (not in the public eye) who use Sr. Furthermore, when my son was born my wife wanted to name him after me. We did so, and she included JR. on his birth certificate as part of his name and we have tried to include this on all paperwork related to him (example, it is on his U.S.-issued passport, social security card, U.S. savings bonds, etc.). Then I changed my name to include the suffix "Sr.". So, Sr. is now on my U.S.-issued passport, state-issued driver's license, FAA-issued pilot certificate, credit cards, bank accounts, legal documents such as wills and durable power of attorneys, etc. Yes, doing this was a bit of a hassle, but it helps prevent ambiguity. For example, when mail arrives at our home, so long as it has a suffix, it is clear to which one of us it is addressed. We have still had some mix-ups (i.e. at the pharmacy and with an insurance company), but I do believe consistently using both the Jr. suffix (for my son) and Sr. suffix (for me) has prevented more confusion than it has caused. It seems helpful to have the suffix explicitly written, vs. assuming that the absense of the suffix means it is referring to the elder (as in some cases a suffix may get dropped either accidentally, or intentionally).
He is given a name and that remains his name for life. He is the original article and does not change his name.
This sounds untrue. Women certainly may change their names (for example, when they get married) and there are legal processes in place for doing so. These same legal processes can be used by a man to change his name to add a Sr. suffix.
I also find other information that seems to contradict what is written in the Wikipedia article. For example, http://www.fusepress.com/chucknugent/jr_ii_iii_etc_suffixes_for_mens_names states:
In the U.S. if a son has the same name as his father, the father will assume the suffix of "Sr." for senior and the son the suffix of "Jr." for junior. For the Senior/Junior suffix to apply the names (first, middle and last) must be exactly the same.
I realize that this is just someone's blog, but at least it helps to support that my view is not alone. Again, the wikipedia article states:
Importantly, Sr is never used by a man.
Could someone please clarify for me why this is so "Important"? The importance of this seems like an opinion, and one that is certainly debatable. Perhaps a statement more like "It is uncommon for a man to use Sr." would be more appropriate. 24.211.51.110 (talk) 15:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
What could be done about this? Perhaps divide the section into regional subsections?
85.156.227.198 (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
This article should avoid the term "legal name". Just within the US, there are various agencies and states which do, or do not, include a suffix as part of one's legal name. Then there is the rest of the world to contend with. I don't believe it is possible to define the term "legal name" except in a narrow context that would not be suitable for a Wikipedia article. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Any agency or individual whom alters the name of another person from their legal name given at birth without their consent is guilty of slander, libel and defamation. No one, governmental or not, has any legal authority to change anyone's name. "Jr" or any other suffix IS a part of a person's full name, and legal name, as given at birth and appearing on their identification such as a birth certificate and social security application. "Jr" and any other suffix is not some ephemeral nomenclatural appendage you get to decide if you agree to or not. It is an integral part of the name. Look up suffix's definition. A suffix changes the meaning of whatever it is joined to, and is a part of it. It is the same for words or names. For example, "smoke" and "smokeless" are two entirely different words despite being only visibly different due to a suffix. It is the same for a father and a son, separated visibly in print by the suffix "Jr." You don't decide. It was decided at birth. A suffix is a part of a full legal name and not outside of it in any way except illegally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.129.85 (talk) 10:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
The current version of the "Esquire" section indicates that in the US, "Esq." is used both socially and by lawyers. Certainly it is used by lawyers, both male and female. It's used occasionally by men socially, but it's pretty unusual. Perhaps this should be reworded. If we are to indicate it is used socially by men of high social standing in the US, it might be good to find a reliable source that says so. Maybe it's only used by US men who think they are in high standing socially. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Few absolute statements can be made about names. This edit contains at least one absolute statement that I don't think could be proven even for a single English-speaking country, much less the whole world. (Statements in Wikipedia should be true for the whole world unless a narrower scope is stated or implied.)
There are some preexisting statements that also label some usages as absolutely correct or incorrect, but even for just the United States, I can't find any source that isn't contradicted by some other equally plausible source. For example, "The term "junior" is correctly used only if a child is given exactly the same name as his or her parent." (See footnote 4 in the article.) Also, citations are in APA Style, as indicated by the second version below
On the basis of the style established in the early versions below, I am marking this article as using American spelling and dates formatted like September 9, 2013.
Jc3s5h (talk) 13:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the many paragraphs devoted to particular families and the succession of suffixs down several generations is over long given the breadth of the article?
One family might be interesting if it has a lot of corner cases, but there are multiple ones in the article. It seems over weight for the scope of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.76.12 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
These are not suffixes. The es at the end of suffixes is a suffix. And we're mixing and matching completely different classes of name elements. This probably serves some kind of purpose as WP:CONCEPTDAB page, but should branch out to artiles that handle these things separately and correctly, with proper sourcing. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:31, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
Junior and senior are post-nominal patronymics, and should be covered in detail at Patronymic. We have too much material here rambling on and on about it, while that article is missing the information. Much much else is missing or not covered properly there. E.g. fils and Fitz- are covered under England, but fils is French, and Fitz- is almost exclusively Norman-Irish, but not mentioned under Ireland, and fils is not mentioned, nor is the counterpart père, under France. And so on. That article could be improved my fixing those problems, and moving the junior/senior material here to England over there and paring it down. Then that subsection over there should be be rearranged by culture, since it doesn't have anything to do with national borders (the "English" traditions are also native to southern Scotland and are of the Anglo-Saxon and later Anglo-Norman culture; the Gaelic ones should be described as such; the French traditions can probably be called that, since it's found in other French-speaking areas like parts of Belgium and Switzerland; etc.)
The Suffix (name) article probably needs to move to Post-nominal (usurping that redirect and Postnominal from the article Post-nominal letters), and be a much leaner WP:CONCEPTDAB page, in WP:SUMMARY style, than it presently is. It should mention and illustrate post-nominal letters without trying to define them in detail, just give ((Main|Post-nominal letters))
, some examples of different types, and leave it at that. It's not acceptable that it's WP:POVFORKing from that article so much that it has a ((Contradicts other)) tag on it. The ((Globalize)) problem is resolved by not trying to address it in-depth here, but only at the main Post-nominal letters article, which is already broad. The current should-be-conceptdab page need only present a summary of these two things, the use of post-nominal appellations of other kinds (e.g. professional ones that are not acronyms, and legal terms), again branching to main articles whenever possible, e.g. the one at Esquire. Much of the content presently here is also even internally redundant on this page, e.g. we cover "Esq." twice, back to back.
The purpose of a page like this is to get people to the real articles they're looking for, not to compete with those articles. "Name-like stuff that comes after a proper name" is not really a discrete topic at all. There is no relationship between any of these things other than the accident of where they are placed (in English). Trying to treat them all as the same topic is a classic example of original research. A summarizing conceptual disambiguation page can and should exist, providing just enough information to help people locate the proper articles, because there's a legitimate reader need to serve. Someone who encounters a post-nominal with which they are unfamiliar is not likely to already know whether it is patronymic, professional, legally categorizing, honorary, etc. It's also fine that Suffix (name) continues to redirect here, since the distinction will not be clear to everyone and plenty of people are likely to think of these as suffixes, so we should continue to help them find what they're looking for if they use that search term.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:35, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Brief observation: there's a specific discussion about suffices in the United Kingdom talking about "Snr." and "Jnr." However, since both are contractions rather than abbreviations, I'd expect to see them (if at all) without a trailing period, as with British usage of "Mr", "Mrs" and "Dr".
I appreciate that American convention is to apply the period regardless (I got here by double-checking Martin Luther King Jr.), but since this section is specific to the United Kingdom, should the periods not be elided? Fluppeteer (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I've added Template:More citations needed and Template:Overly detailed to the US generational suffixes section. There's nearly a dozen paragraphs and only six citations, and half of them are from one source, The Emily Post Institute.
Etiquette and, in a much broader sense, human name practices are highly subjective and have few, if any, hard and fast rules. This section should present different schools of thought and attribute them accordingly; it should not assert that some are more correct than others, as it currently does. Sjedits (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)