The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closing as consensus to promote, Woody (talk) 08:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alister Murdoch

[edit]
Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)


From 1954 to 1969, the RAAF was headed by a remarkable series of Chiefs whose most frequently cited common attribute was their status as former cadets of Duntroon—that is, they studied as Army officers before joining the Air Force. They were Air Marshals McCauley, Scherger, Hancock and Murdoch. Frederick Scherger went through ACR/FAC a while back, and now it’s time for the rest. Among my earliest articles on senior RAAF commanders, John McCauley, Val Hancock and Alister Murdoch have been B/GA-Class till recently (all are GA now), so I decided to expand and improve them in tandem, given the additional sources that have come my way since I created them. It therefore seemed appropriate to put them up for ACR at the same time and, given their similarities, you might like to review them in tandem as well... ;-)

Seriously, it shouldn’t be too bad: after Duntroon, they all joined the RAAF before World War II, saw action during the war, and went on to higher command and eventually the top of the Air Force in the 1950s and 60s. McCauley’s and Hancock’s tours as Chief were separated by Fred Scherger. Comparing those three, McCauley could be seen as the most reserved and cerebral, Scherg as the most dynamic and forthright, and Hancock somewhere between those two poles. Murdoch was the last of the quartet and somewhat the odd one out, not graduating from Duntroon as an Army officer and then volunteering for the RAAF like the others, but entering the college under an RAAF cadet scheme and transferring services before graduation due to economic cutbacks. Plus his legacy is generally considered a negative one for the Air Force, blamed as he is for the service losing its control of battlefield helicopters to the Army in the 1980s. His predecessors are remembered more positively, McCauley for focussing on Australia’s northern defences, Scherg for carrying that a step further by initiating a string of ‘bare bases’ up north and also for ordering the Mirage fighter, and Hancock for picking the fledgling F-111 as the top bomber of its era. Anyway, enough of the intro—thanks in advance for your input! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  1. Early career: His daddy was not promoted to brigadier until WWII, so consider re-wording
    • Tks, will do.
  2. His brother Ian was a MAJGEN, so you can red-link him if you like
  3. Link Major General to Major General (Australia) instead
    • Wilco.
  4. Enlisting in the Air Force on 10 December 1930' Any idea when he was commissioned?
    • Generally happened upon graduation as a pilot back then -- will check if any source says specifically...
  5. Murdoch was posted to England in 1936 37 I think we are missing something here
    • Getting my nbsps mixed up with my ndashes again...
  6. to undertake a long navigation course On first reading,. I thought that the course was long. Consider re-wording
    • Heh, sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to pick those "uh?" moments... ;-)
  7. Director of Personal Services Personal or Personnel?
    • Personal Services -- the Directorate came under the Personnel Branch.
      • Just checking. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • So have I -- again. I'm not entirely sure the Air Force even knows itself but the impression I'm getting now is that it was "Personal Services" during the war, and "Personnel Services" after. Gillison explicitly mentions the former, Stephens the latter. You might note that in Hancock's article I used the latter, as Stephens does. My source for Murdoch annoyingly uses "Pers. Services", but I think now it's best we assume "Personnel" for that too... Ho-hum. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Described as second only to the General Dynamics F-111 as the "most significant" purchase by the RAAF, Described by whom? (I would disagree myself and put the Herc first.)
    • Stephens in his official history of the RAAF 1946-71.
  9. sixty-nine were later delivered Skip the hyphen
    • Hmm, I thought double-barrelled numbers were always hyphenated...
  10. UH-1H Iroquois gunships UH-1 or AH-1? I thought it was the latter but I could be wrong. I thought that the hueycobras were even allocated "A numbers" but the RAAF cancelled the order in the Vietnam wind-down. I may have recalled the story wrong.
    • The Cobra would've been AH-1. Iroquois were always some species of UH-1, I believe.
      • It was the AH-1G. The gunship version of the UH-1 Huey. I think the article misrepresents this story. The Army wanted the AH-1G. The The RAAF, particularly DCAS AVM Read, wanted more UH-1Hs, which could be used for duties other than as gunships. The Army, in particular the DCGS, MAJGEN Graham, a former commander of 1ATF, protested. The RAAF Board then decided to recommend the UH-1H, on grounds that showed a lack of understanding of gunships. The Air minister accepted the board's recommendation but cabinet overturned this and the AH-1G was ordered in early 1971. The order was cancelled in October 1971. See Coulthard-Clark, The RAAF in Vietnam, pp. 182-183
        • I think I've related the story accurately insofar as Murdoch was involved, namely that the Army wanted the AH-1 Cobra while Murdoch preferred the idea of Harriers, if anything. The main area I see our stories diverging is that my source, Stephens, declares that it was UH-1H Iroquois gunships that were eventually ordered, then cancelled, while Coulthard-Clark says it was AH-1 HueyCobras. Given both of their strong track records in Air Force history I can't really say which author is more likely to be correct. Do you know of another reliable source that claims one model or the other? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • I checked Stephens, p. 299 and p. 318. But also see Parnell and Lynch, Australian Air Force, p. 176, which makes it clear that eleven AH-1Gs were ordered. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • Heh, well I guess Stephens is outvoted then... ;-) Is that Australian Air Force Since 1911 or some such? If so, I've seen it but haven't had access to it for years unfortunately. What I might do is effectively leave the first part as is, with Stephens as source, but alter the last statement to AH-1 and cite Coulthard-Clark and Parnell/Lynch for that. Can you just supply the ISBN for your copy so I can source the exact publishing details? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  11. A generation of lieutenant-colonels and majors had come to believe that the RAAF did not care about army support, and they were to carry that belief into the 1970s and beyond Um yes. I know that must have been painful for you to write, but that is exactly what I remember from the 1980s and 1990s. Also, remove the hyphen.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments. At a glance, this looks like another fine piece of work and I've a feeling these will be mostly nitpicks, but here we go. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 19:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
More