Begotten (film)

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This peer review discussion is closed.

I've listed this article for peer review because it has undergone some recent changes for, hopefully, a successful Featured article nomination. Formatting of sources and reliability were a huge issue with the previous Featured article nominations, structural and format can always be a problem so I am needing an outside eye to see if there are more things to improve to get this up to the best it can possibly be.

Thanks, Paleface Jack (talk) 18:41, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GWL

Hey there. I will comment on the longer prose at a later date, but here are some initial comments. I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 09:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I trimmed some of the alts and added Suntag's, but Infobox image needs alt
• "The US premiere of Begotten occurred at the 1990 San Francisco International Film Festival, where it was screened at the Japantown Kabuki 8 multiplex (pictured in 2005)." --> "The Japantown Kabuki 8 theater (pictured 2005), where Begotten premiered in the US"
• "Writer—director" --> "Writer-director".

• At home media, it's best to move refs 55 to 72 to the final sentence so that others wont question, "did not provide a release date either uncited?"
• I'm not sure the See also link is substantiative to this article. "One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics". See also my point on the filming date at lead.
• The citations are inconsistent: all websites must be in website parameter, or newspaper, or whatever that creates italics. Also some of them have wikilinks to the website; others dont.

Will be working on that later.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I archived the links for ya, but next time you can DIY with this.
• There are some refs with "n.a., n.d.". These are redundant; authors and publishers parameters are not required so there's no expectation for all sources to have one. The places n.a. are usually placed is in sources without titles, which is required.

Fixed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Use Template:Cite instagram for IG posts.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• In refs like StudentFilmmakers Magazine: if the publisher name nearly mirrors the website or newspaper name, it can be omitted.
• I suggest re-reviewing the sources to ensure they're truly high-quality, you're gonna have to face the spotcheckers at FAC. Especially the blogs websites (like Dennis Schwartz) and those marked in RSP: Buzzfeed & AskMen.

Only had Schwartz cause he was listed as significant, his reviews are included on Rotten tomatoes. Removed him as a result. Buzzfeed and Askmen are only used for list related info and not major info.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there any way in which those in Further reading, can be applied as refs?
• The exlink subsections "Din of Celestial Birds" and "Polia" are too much, since they're only 2 and 1 links.

Might remove the TCM link from the external link to Din since it is in the main body.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• In infobox, decapitalize Sound

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Since you only put World Artists Home Video as the only distrib, there's no need for the all media

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Infoboxes only list the first festival date and first theatrical date. So San fran can be omitted.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there any way in which Note 2 can be applied to the body instead?

I tried that and it seemed more awkward.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• It's better to mention the budget in the body too with a citation, so that you don't need to cite in infobox. Also it is presumed to be estimated; that paranthesis can be omitted.

• "written, produced, photographed and directed" can be omitted; it's too much for a lead, and "film by Edmund..." can pretty much indicate his primary role.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• theatre, distributor is overlink; "avant-garde film-makers" duplicate link
• "Georges Franju's documentary short Blood of the Beasts, Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, Stan Brakhage's The Act of Seeing with One's Own Eyes, and the German Expressionist film The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari." Some inconsistencies here. The first and last fragment mentions the genre, but others do not. I think condensing them to "several art films" would do, but I'd love to see your take.

I might remove what the genres are for these but keep the films in the body since he listed them as significant influences.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "over a period generally thought to have been three and a half years – although, in an interview, Merhige said filming took only five and a half months." Wouldn't Merhige be more accurate in this sense? I'm also confused as to who and who are within the bubble of "generally". The filming section doesn't delve into this either, only stating "over a period of three and five-and-a-half months".

Reworded that one a little and might do more later.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "where it was seen by film critics Tom Luddy and Peter Scarlet. They brought it to the attention of fellow"-- this is also too long, and could be condensed in some way.

Reworded a little with more fine-tuning later.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "and private screenings of the film in her own home"-- I'm not sure people flocked to see the film because of a critic playing it in her house, it's probably just the reviews...

Added clarification/reworking.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "main-stream" -- remove hyphen

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• There should be a brief summary of the critic reviews.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "a phenomenon described as a "copy-cult" by film studies scholar Ernest Mathijs." This should be cited

in the lead it doesnt need to be since its cited in the main body

It has to; per MOS:LEADCITE, "The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation." GeraldWL 03:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "the premiere of"-- redundant

• "the robed god" --> "he"

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• coffin overlink

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "an untold period of time" --> "some time"

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "rape, and murder"-- rm comma. "brutally" is subjective and redundant.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "depicting God Killing Himself"-- honestly, I think GKH is just a descriptive filler name. This happens in many films where they need to attribute a minor cast, so they just put names like "The boy who strolled by the house". You can change this to "robed god", and I don't think the attribution of GKH is noteworthy in para 1 either.

Agreed, I only gonna use the name of the character in the opening paragraph since he is not mention by name until the main credits. All other mentions are simplified now.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• The citation is unecessary; plot sections dont have cites in general as it's presumed the film is the source

Dont know why it was. Removed it.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "montage of grainy photographs"-- is grainy also noteworthy? Plus I think it is the nature of film itself that creates the grain; even if you remove the word no message is lost.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't understand the need for line breaks at the cast section. Each bullet point can easily be just one sentence.

Taking my cue from other FA articles in format. it fits better as this and adds more context and info that is not in the main body of the plot.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Elaborate what is the Flesh on Bone alternate name

Name is listed not as an alternate but a caption shown in the end credits.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be great to have it as "(captioned Flesh on Bone) or smth like that. GeraldWL 03:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "provided additional credits for other characters in the film such as the Nomads and Robed Figures" --> "starred as the nomads and robed figures". Could also add "In addition," at the beginning of the para.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "Merhige had studied at New York State University"-- it's State University of New York

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "Merhige later stated in an interview that he had been drawn towards the use of" --> "He was drawn by the"

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "what Merhige called, "an otherworldly response"."-- rm comma

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "After working on several different experimental theater productions"-- you can remove "productions" off the link

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "the initial concept for the film was envisioned as a dance production"-- this is repetitive, either remove "initial concept for the", or "envisioned as"

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "a quarter of a million dollars"-- digitizing this would make it less wordy
• "They decided that the film should be silent"-- link silent film

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "ritual breathing exercises as a group." Rm the repetitive "as a group".
• Link alchemic, Hermeticism (poetry)

Done, though it actually refers to the practice of Hermeticism rather than poetry.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I think the first three sentences of para. 3 is better served at paragraph 2, so that paragraph can focus solely on the whole ritual thing.

Not sure which you mean.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "including work on cinematography, and special effects"-- rm comma

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Black-n-white is overlink

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "He had previously worked on several short film subjects before developing Begotten." Isn't this repetitive of the dev. section?

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "The opening sequence depicting the robed figure (listed in the credits as "God Killing Himself")" --> "The opening sequence depicting God Killing Himself"

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "with Merhige stating: "it proved to everyone that this was an important film, that there really was nothing else like it, and we were actually going to make it happen."" This is quite redundant as it provides little substance, saying that they're enthusiastic speaks enough.

Reworked.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "with their forms of payment being free room and board, and Merhige himself paying for all of their expenses." --> "with their forms of payment being free room and board throughout filming."

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "In his book Film Out of Bounds: Essays and Interviews on Non-Mainstream Cinema Worldwide, film historian Matthew Edwards"-- the book title is redundant and too long; just crediting the historian is enough.

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "outside of Hollywood that displayed unique flair and artistry that rivaled most Hollywood productions"-- Hollywood is an informal term for major-studio films

Did a little rewording of this.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "between New York City and New Jersey"-- NYC dup link

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "creating visual imagery through analog format"-- the link is misleading, as analog recording refers to stuff like VHS or Beta.

The film formatt was made to mimic that.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "Merhige explained"-- add a colon

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "located on Manhattan's 48th Street and owned by a German-American émigré named Fred Schreck." The location and ethnicity is excessive for an article that's not about the place/person. --> "owned by Fred Schreck."

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "Schreck's name appears under "special thanks" in the film's end credits." It is the default expectation to have someone credited; it would be more worthy of inclusion if he's miscredited or uncredited

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• "of his next film, Shadow of the Vampire"-- include the year.

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