List of cities in Israel

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 15 days, 1 support, 3 oppose. Fail. --Crzycheetah 23:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

10 Days Ends July 22
Current Opinion	User
Support	Golbez
Oppose	Crzycheetah
Oppose	Circeus
Strong Oppose	OpenToppedBus

Several editors have put a lot of work into this entry, and I recently tried to parallel the featured list List of United States cities by population as of late. So this list is so similar, it seems logical to me that it also qualifies for FL status ;-) Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 21:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
1. Please change the blue color in the header to some lighter color because the blue links(Hebrew, Arabic) don't look right. Also, use the same color for all table headers for consistency.
  Done - I also changed the class of the other tables to sortable for continuity.--Flymeoutofhere 08:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2. Where did you get the 2000 estimate numbers from? Reference needed
  Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
3. Where is the image of #9 city? If you don't have an image, then just don't number the others.
  OK I removed the numbering --Flymeoutofhere 08:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
4. I really don't understand why there are so many tables. For example, why are there two tables in the List of cities with a large immigrant population section? I am sure you can make one sortable table to have both the population and percentage.
  OK I sorted this one - I cant see how to get rid of any more though --Flymeoutofhere 08:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
5. All of your tables deal with population; therefore, I'd suggest you to rename the article as List of cities by population in Israel. The reason is that I don't see any economical, agricultural, or financial info on cities.
  Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
6. Need to format the references and external links. See the ((cite web)) template for an example.
  Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are many things that are just not there right now.--Crzy cheetah 02:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments, [and thanks to Flymeoutofhere for their good work],

Regarding the pictures, I'm in the process of filling out the top 14 (population over 100,000), but I'm not sure that I see what the problem would be with the numbering even if it was incomplete. As for the name change, While I understand your point, a scan of most other List of cities in Foo (at least those in the MidEast) have far less information, though those with some level of detail seem strikingly similar to this one, and it seems that that is the primary function of such a list (List of cities in Syria, List of cities in Turkey, List of cities in Eritrea, List of cities in Djibouti, List of cities in Algeria). Please let me know what you think, Tewfik^Talk 09:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do those other lists have a gold star on the upper-right corner? I highly doubt it. They're in the start class. The lists of cities need to have more info other than population. Well, since you tried to parallel the featured list List of United States cities by population, it is understandable why there is a lot of information on population. I have more comments:

Could you point out what the initial order of the first table is?
Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you using the 2004 estimates to get the declining numbers and 2005 estimates to get the growing numbers? It feels like you want those numbers (declining and growing) to look better than they actually are.
Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What's the area of Dimona? If you want this list to be comprehensive, the first step is to add the areas of each city.
I'm not sure I understand - do you mean we should keep the current title and include both "by population" and "by area" data? Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also not seeing the point. Area does not seem to be a crucial characteristic as much as population. Circeus 16:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this list is still called List of cities in Israel, or am I missing something here? There has to be some info other than population if you decided to keep that title.--Crzy cheetah 23:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was moved, and moved back. See Circeus' comments about British Columbia at the bottom. Tewfik^Talk 03:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is still too much work that has to be done, so I oppose for now.--Crzy cheetah 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:
- Make the list default sorting by name or population and not by district.
  - Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Clarify if possible what are the criteria of the CBS for the city status.
  - Created and linked city council (Israel). Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Include the number of cities in Israel. I think it's an important piece of information.
  - Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for now. CG 08:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "Following is a list of cities, the population of which..." doesn't flow well, and would beenfit from re-writing. Tompw (talk) (review) 16:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I rewrote the lead - let me know if you think it works. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
- Images overlap with the main page at 1024 in Firefox. With the lead images, and appropriate images added in the lower sections, these can and should go.
- ~~Remove unnecessary words from the headers. "List of" every time is tedious~~
  - Done. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~There's some oddball whitespace at the end of the Lead~~ gone now
- ~~Remove the "see also" from the lead or work them in properly.~~
- Remove the internal wikilinks from the notes. Those are almost useless
Circeus 17:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm using Firefox at 1024 and don't see that problem, and I'm not sure how to deal with any whitespace that you might see (maybe someone else with our resolution can check?). Could you explain your comments a bit more, as I thought that this is the proper usage of ((seealso)), that is for links related to the topic but which are not covered by it. I originally incorporated them in part because I was paralleling the Featured List of United States cities by population, so I hope that I didn't copy any errors from it. Unless I'm missing some MoS (and I could be as there are many ;-]), I'm a bit unsure about why we need to delink the refs. As far as use, I can testify that anyone browsing with WP:Popups would find them helpful. Thanks for your feedback, and do let me know what you think. Tewfik^Talk 08:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Image layout: See Image:Israel-cities-layout.gif. the problem should be obvious. Considering the table's width, I don't think squeezing image son the right is really necessary anyway.
  - Seealso: ((seealso)) Is used at the beginning of a section. It is completely unnecessary to link in such a fashion at the very beginning of the article. The only links in italic in the lead are usually disambiguation hatnotes, which only adds to the confusion. I will rm them fromthe U.S. list myself. Besides, that is what "See also" sections are for. Double linking an article at the top and bottom is unnecessary.
    - Ynhockey fixed this. Tewfik^Talk 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Ref linking:The primary reason is that the language links are entirely superfluous there :why would I find a link to "English language" relevant? See Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context. As for the ICBS, it's linked far more accessibly in the lead ;). At any rates, having the links in all three notes looks ridiculous.
  - Circeus 16:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the language links - I didn't realise that that was what you were referring to. I suppose if you feel that the ICBS linking doesn't belong then I can remove that as well. I saw your screenshot, but I'm not sure of how to fix something like that. Has anyone else experience that problem? Tewfik^Talk 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Very close to a support~~ but I really think the main table should be sorted by population by default, not name. I'd do it myself but I wanted to clear it first. (also if you do, change my header name change back :) --Golbez 14:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- With the article retasked towards a simple list of cities, rather than by population, I support. --Golbez 20:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've returned the list to its original location. As it is a) exhaustive and b) sortable, it seems completely unnecessary to specify "by population" because that is NOT the list's primary purpose. On the side, I really don't think it is necessary to make the basic sort by population. See e.g. List of municipalities in British Columbia and our various county lists. Circeus 16:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- List of municipalities in British Columbia proves my point. At least area and formation date columns are needed in the List of cities in Israel. As long as those columns are missing, this list should have a by population ending in its title. I repeat, all data in this list is pertaining to population. Or, maybe, should we say the list of populations of Israeli cities? (that's a joke, btw)--Crzy cheetah 03:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - No. the place is already taken by information more relevant in this case (alternative names, because it's a language with a non-latin a alphabet). If you can offer a way that all the infomation will actually fit on the page, feel free to do so. Circeus 16:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - I suggest you remove the 2004 census; it's too recent to offer a large contrast with 2006, and anything notable about it - shrinking or quickly growing cities - is handled below. --Golbez 17:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - While it "hurts" me to remove data (since entering it is so painful ;-]), I'm not sure that that would necessarily solve Crzycheetah's problem. Maybe we could fit in area? Is there any other way of preserving the multiple sets of data (which hopefully will be continually updated)? Tewfik^Talk 19:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        Why is there a whole column given for "CBS Name "? It doesn't enhance the list, I believe it can be added as a note. We just need that info to check the references; therefore, it should be noted in the references that the following cities have a different spelling in the CBS list. Then, I think that area and formation information can be added without any pain.--Crzy cheetah 20:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        I added the 'area' column and further narrowed the width. Let me know, Tewfik^Talk 09:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        It's good, but where is the reference? Where did you get those figures from?--Crzy cheetah 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A comment: Since the status of Jerusalem is complicated and contentious, the list should explain (in a note, perhaps?) why and to what extent (by geography and/or population?) Jerusalem is covered by this list. Sandstein 09:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering the list also includes cities in Judea and Samaria - the West Bank - I think it includes all of Jerusalem. Perhaps a note should be made about the disputed status of Judea and Samaria. --Golbez 09:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - It documents the Israeli administrative system, so it does include the whole Israeli municipality of Jerusalem. I suppose an asterisk could be added to their unit of Judea and Samaria Area (slightly distinct from the West Bank), but it might be best to let readers follow the links to detailed (and hard-wrought consensus) explanations. Tewfik^Talk 19:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose unless and until the disputed status of Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria are adequately addressed. There are many who would argue that some of the cities listed are not in Israel at all but in the occupied West Bank. It's not enough in this instance to simply "let readers follow the links". --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 11:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]