The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 07:55, 9 August 2008 [1].

List of USAF Test Pilot School alumni[edit]

I would like to submit this list of notable graduates of the USAF TPS, created in the same style as List of Medal of Honor recipients for the Battle of Iwo Jima. The list has many wikilinks on each line which is not in keeping with MOS, but it seems popular with lists of people, perhaps because each person in the list is unique and not necessarily related to the others. Having wikilinks on each line does allow a reader who is interested in a particular person to more easily access an element in that person's life rather than hunt through the list for the previous wikilink, although at the expense of potential distraction. I am curious to read the opinion of the reviewers on this issue. Skeet Shooter (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it looks pretty good but I do have a couple suggestions.
1. Create articles for th persons listed with red links.
2. Is this a complete list of notable alumni and what makes them notable?
  • I think so, but it depends on how one interprets WP:BIO. All the astronauts and four star generals are included, but there are a number of two and three star generals (who don't currently have Wiki biographies) I think could be added. There are also a few who received professional awards (but don't currently have Wiki bios) that should probably be included. I plan to work on these although they may not be notable enough for Wiki. Skeet Shooter (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
3. Some of the list rows have refeences and some don't, recommend adding inline citations for the rest.
  • Per WP:CITE, I added references to items that were likely to be challenged. The individual articles on the astronauts and generals are well documented so I didn't provide separate citations for them in the list. The articles on flight test pioneers varied a great deal—some were stubs or had "citation needed" tags. These are the ones for which I included separate references in the list. I can add references to all the list members, but it seemed unnecessary when access to the reference is available by clicking on the person's article. Thank you for your comments! Skeet Shooter (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does a list need to stand alone with respect to references/citations or is it acceptable to wikilink to the article which provides the detailed references/citations? Standing alone is good in a sense, but it seems to needlessly duplicate info which is bad from an article maintenance standpoint. Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Kumioko (talk) 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Military leader criteria for inclusion unclear and not stated in article. Articles mentions that they encourage foreign students - but none are included in the list. Aren't any of them notable? Rmhermen (talk) 22:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response: Criteria for all sections based on WP:BIO and WP:MILMOS#NOTE, and I will add this. I included all the TPS four-star generals, and two colonels who were notable for actions other than flight test. Should I break this section into two? I think there are several lower-ranking generals that might be included, but I decided not add them until I could create Wiki biographies for them. Surprisingly, I've had no luck finding notable foreign students. Skeet Shooter (talk) 00:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (updated list to reflect WP:BIO and WP:MILMOS#NOTE use in selection of notable alumni. Does this address your concerns? Thanks.) Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • After reviewing WP:LISTV, I think inclusion in this list is based on two areas: a) graduating from the TPS, which is reliably verified by the TPS book in the references (and less reliably by the Wiki articles of the subjects); and b) notability, which is verified by WP:MILMOS#NOTE and the fact that all subjects but four have Wiki articles. Perhaps I am just not understanding the issue. Help please... Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the mention of the criteria is good (although I think the criteria is much looser in fact than the way you are actually applying it here - so others may want to add more names under those criteria.) Rmhermen (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. There are a number of names I would like to add, but I thought it appropriate to create articles for these individuals first rather than putting too many "red links" in the list. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
New comment: This line has difficulties: "Many TPS graduates were selected for the U.S. space program and others earned astronaut's wings by flying in the X-15, Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs". Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs are part of the U.S. space program, not of "others". Either "others" should be removed as X-15 was a U.S. space program (It doesn't say a NASA program) or "Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs" should be removed (less correct). The only other possibility I can imagine is that a TPS graduate flew only in the Russian space program but I don't know if there are any examples of that - and the sentence doesn't mention that. Rmhermen (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. The intent was to show that a group of astronaut-trained TPS grads were selected for the space program and a subset of that group went on to earn astronaut wings by flying in space. I have rephrased the sentences to reflect that. Thanks. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I always like the ones I can relate to.. Edwards AFB is just up the road from me.

I really enjoyed the time I lived at EAFB years ago and southern California is still a very nice place (San Diego is home now). Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in Lancaster. San Diego would be nicer! :) Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. But don't forget the United States Naval Test Pilot School in Maryland. Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it could be mentioned that there is a test pilot school for the navy?
 Not done. Since I had already wikilinked EAFB when I addressed your first comment. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. I thought bold in first sentence was per WP:MOS, but does your comment indicate the text isn't the full name of the article? Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right. The bold text would be The United States Air Force Test Pilot School alumni, which would mean recasting the first sentence and removing the wikilink. Per WP:BOLDTITLE, the bold part shouldn't be linked, and if only part of is bolded, or the bold parts are separated by wikilinks or plain text, then the bold title is forced. If it doesn't come naturally, it doesn't have to be bolded.
 Done. But such a link goes to a redirect. Somewhere I thought I read that should be avoided, but I can't find the reference now. Skeet Shooter (talk)
But you should also use whole words rather than abbreviations on their first use. It's a bit of a balancing act. Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. I had borrowed this from List of United States Military Academy alumni but I agree your wording is better. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Milestones in Aerospace History at Edwards AFB by Young is a PDF which has no page numbers. Instead, it lists events by dates, and September 27, 1956 is the date Mel Apt became the first to exceed Mach 3. I couldn't find how to properly reference a document that has no page numbers, but I wanted to provide some way for the reader to find the section on Mel Apt. Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My intent was to provide a reference to show that Pete Everest was the subject and co-author of The Fastest Man Alive, so the reference pointed to the entire book (no page numbers). It does look a bit odd, especially since I couldn't find an ISBN number for the book. Please let me know if there is a preferred way to deal with this situation. Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Replaced with "pp. 3–4" Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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